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Yesterday, the Pope made a public appearance in St Peter's Square and met JD Vance briefly. This morning, he died.
Pope Francis was feared as or expected to be a radical reformer after the dogmatic and traditionalist Pope Benedict. Francis made more outreach to Catholics in the developing world and to the youth, but in the end he seems to have landed in Papal mainstream after all.
Who do Catholic STWers want to see as his replacement? And has anyone seen Conclave with Ranulph Fiennes? It's really good apart from the last 15 minutes...
Been meaning to watch Conclave but I'll wait for the live show now.
He did seem to want to try and be more progressive, but not sure the oil tanker was ready for turning.
There's many reasons to hate the Catholic church, but this is a very important moment to millions around the world (and unimportant to several billion more).
Youngest went to a Catholic secondary school, their return after the Easter break tomorrow will probably be interesting.
but in the end he seems to have landed in Papal mainstream after all.
I'm not sure why you say that.
The pope and Vance have tangled over immigration and the Trump administration’s plans to deport people en masse. Francis has made caring for those who migrate a hallmark of his papacy and his progressive views on social justice issues have often put him at odds with members of the more conservative US Catholic church.
The role of the Pope is very limited in contemporary politics, and quite rightly so, but Pope Francis wasn't scared to speak out.
Edited for the correct link
I fear that the cult will continue for a while yet, but enough about Vance, has he been interviewed by Papal Swiss Guard?
😉
Who do Catholic STWers want to see as his replacement?
Cardinal Luis Antonio Tagle.
Elderly 'world figure' meets creepy politician - dies shortly after....seems to be a trend. Perhaps you just appreciate - "has this what it's come to" and give up on life.
The recent Arch Bish of Canterbury stepping down was surprisingly low key. I remember Runcie's departure being a much bigger deal and he wasn't going in disgrace like Justin Welby. Obviously being pope is a bigger gig, but It'll be interesting to see if the Roman Catholic general public can muster as much interest as they have in past generations.
To quote Jimmy Carr - it's a little bit like when Diana died. I couldn't give a shit.
Conclave film good, Conclave book terrible.
I reckon he met Vance and realised he'd failed, so gave up...
To quote Jimmy Carr - it's a little bit like when Diana died. I couldn't give a shit.
Conclave film good, Conclave book terrible.
Yet you still felt the need to post..
Tbh, if I was an 88 year old bloke and I met vance, the realisation the world is run by imbeciles like him would probably make me think nows a good time to check out..
I'm not a big fan of the Catholic church however he came across as alot more tolerant than his predecessors
Rip Pope..
Conclave is a fantastic watch.
If we could get a slightly less pro-Ukrainian-surrender pope next time around, that would be great.
Pope Francis was feared as or expected to be a radical reformer after the dogmatic and traditionalist Pope Benedict
I think it's unlikely any pope will deliver a radical step change. There is too much inertia in the system not just within the management structure of the church but in the followers too. It'll need to be a nudge approach.
In some ways we should be grateful as putting the power to quickly make radical change in the hands of a single individual or small closed enclave has rarely ended well and if one pope can swing dramatically one way another could go the other.
Coincidentally we watched Two Popes last night with Anthony Hopkins and Jonathan Pryce. Which is linked to the back story of the resignation.
I think it's unlikely any pope will deliver a radical step change there is just too much inertia in the system not just within the management structure of the church but in the followers too.
In some ways we should be grateful as putting the power to quickly make radical change in the hands of a single individual or small closed enclave has rarely ended well.
Two very valid points - anyone wanting "radical" change in any situation/organisation seems to miss that it is easier to do with someone in charge as effectively a "dictator", and that hasn't often worked out for the best, historically or currently.
I'm not a big fan of the Catholic church however he came across as alot more tolerant than his predecessors
Tolerant of what? Paedophiles in the Catholic church? He might have taken some steps towards tightening the rules but fell far short of the zero-tolerance approach needed to deal with the problem.
As a non catholic, I felt that this pope did more to make the Catholic Church seem human, and approachable, and acceptable than most that I can remember. He seemed like a very human, caring person, aware of his own spiritual frailties.
To quote Jimmy Carr - it's a little bit like when Diana died. I couldn't give a shit.
I don't know about Diana but Pope Francis did speak for migrants, minorities and the marginalised.
What other significant and universally recognised voice of moral leadership and authority do you know who is currently doing that?
Or are these issues no longer relevant in this day and age and that's why we shouldn't give a shit?
The cult of personality is in full swing on daytime tv. Phone in with your memories of Pope Francis.
Caller 2; I'm not catholic and I never met him, but when I saw him on the telly he seemed like a good bloke.
I think the control room is just trying to make the presenters corpse on live tv with ludicrous calls.
The cult of personality is in full swing on daytime tv. Phone in with your memories of Pope Francis.
Caller 2; I'm not catholic and I never met him, but when I saw him on the telly he seemed like a good bloke.
I think the control room is just trying to make the presenters corpse on live tv with ludicrous calls.
Good day to bury bad news. Said the US Defence Secretary. Allegedly.
I don't know about Diana but Pope Francis did speak for migrants, minorities and the marginalised.
While I didn't buy into the ridiculous faux grief at her death, she did a fair bit for the homeless, the HIV and gay communities and other good causes.
I can't remember - was this dude the one immediately after the ex Hitler Youth guy or the one after the one after?
Apparently he was a bit of a reformer and said some nice things, but didn't do an awful lot about the sexual predators within the Catholic church.
As an agnostic, the last pope that registered in any significant way for me was John Paul II. He was appointed young enough to actually have an influence of his own (as well as being a poke in the eye for the godless bolsheviks).
An endless procession of stale old guys who last a few years and are then replaced with the next oldest cab off the rank? Hardly winning over new converts? Feel more like the USSR pre Gorbachev.
Who do Catholic STWers want to see as his replacement?
that would be an ecumenical matter
The Catholic church is a highly regressive oganisation and is in part responsible for many folk dying of aids due to its policy on condom use.
It is responsible for one old lady whos face still haunts me dying extremely distresed.
It covered up child abuse
It objects to assisted dying as people need to suffer before death to pay for their sins
Many othe apoaling things it is responsible for
Its is an evil cult
I was brought up as a catholic, went to a catholic primary school and was an alter boy at church, so feel slightly qualified to offer an opinion.
If anybody thinks the Catholic church is a force for good, then I would encourage them to do a tour of the Vatican. Every corridor, every room, every chapel, every part of the building is literally covered in near priceless works of art. It is overwhelming, it is nauseating. Gold leaf covering everything, sculptures, frescos, jewels, it is dripping in wealth. This same organisation then goes to Africa and preaches to poor people and encourages them to make donations to the church. Square that one for me.
Pope Francis seemed less offensive than some, but the organisation he headed up is an antiquated, hypocritical, dangerous cult.
What did JD Vance do to him yesterday?
The last thing he saw before he died:
I can't even imagine. True martyrdom.
RIP.
Every corridor, every room, every chapel, every part of the building is literally covered in near priceless works of art. It is overwhelming, it is nauseating. Gold leaf covering everything, sculptures, frescos, jewels, it is dripping in wealth
Look, I can explain. All that wealth is just resting in the Vatican at the moment.
As Father Ted is no longer with us my vote goes to Dougal. Or Bishop Brennen.
First Liz Truss kills the queen then Vance bumps off the pope.
If I was knocking on a bit and not in the best of health I'd be avoiding meetign any right wing nutjob policians.
If I was on my death bed, and Vance was coming to visit, I would want to pop my clogs before he arrived, I would pray my doctor was called Shipman.
I would want to pop my clogs before he arrived,
I dunno, I reckon telling him to his face that he and his boss were both hell-bound would be a satisfying last moment for a pontiff.
I would want to pop my clogs before he arrived,
I dunno, I reckon telling him to his face that he and his boss were both hell-bound would be a satisfying last moment for a pontiff.
Especially with some most un-Christian profanity included as well.
If I was doing that, rather than meet him I would just put out a public statement that during the visit "I have summoned the pope's exorcist to try and cast the demonic Vance to hell" or something similar.
This is going to be one of those threads where people are going to make a point of saying they don't care, isn't it.
As the Catholic church goes (a portion of sentence that is, admittedly, doing some heavy lifting) Pope Francis was fairly radical and liberal. Let's hope whoever the next one is continues down that path.
Oh, and I thought Conclave was really disappointing. It was like a very average ITV drama, but with better sets.
Vance told the pontiff he was going to put Tarrifs on indulgences.
RIP the Pope.
I thought Conclave was great - certainly for people like me who show no interest in this sort of thing usually.
Quiet drama from nothing much happening is definitely a story-telling skill.
It's also quite incredible how they reconstructed the Sistine Chapel and other locations.
When he said yesterday, "that bloody JD Vance is the last person on earth i want to meet", I doubt this is quite what he meant...
I dunno, I reckon telling him to his face that he and his boss were both hell-bound would be a satisfying last moment for a pontiff.
They will all meet up again there in the future. Trump and the Catholic Church have alot in common when it comes to greed, power, and turning a blind eye to improper allegations or convictions
This is going to be one of those threads where people are going to make a point of saying they don't care, isn't it.
Yeah. I mean there are many threads of dead celebrities I either dont' care for or have never heard of, but I don't post on them showing off the fact. I mean why would I?
Did JD vance just suck the last bit of 'catholic sex offence power' out of the pope to pick up the torch of misanthropy?
If 'hell' exits, may the pope burn in it. Good riddance.
Saw the man at the morning mass in the Vatican, understood nothing.
He annoyed me less than his predecessors (where TJ has a point) and took a position I agreed with on many issues: environment, global warming, protecting our collective house, we're all in it together. He worked on good relations with other religions especially the traditional enemy. However sometimes he didn't takes sides in conflicts despite it being clear who was/is on the side of right and good.
I note Ernie is in favour of Tagle, seems a reasonable choice who will continue Francis' progressive policies which really means slightly less conservative.
Me? I'm an agnostic and geologist but live in a Catholic society and I'm married to a Catholic. I've walked half a dozen pilgimages covering about 5000km and went to morning mass in Notre Dame recently. TJ has quoted an example of someone he felt had been ****ed up by the teaching, he's probably right. For every one who's ****ed up I suggest there are many who find comfort and strength in their faith. After all those walks with pilgrims I view personal faith quite positively but organised religion not so favourably - and the biggest argument I've had with a pilgrim was over Brexit or more precisely Lexit! 🙂
Why can't there be a love island style public elimination vote?
Is it too soon to ask why an all-loving, all-powerful god would ruin Easter for a billion of his followers?
After all those walks with pilgrims I view personal faith quite positively but organised religion not so favourably
I just think it's tragic for those who are brainwashed... religon in any form is just social poison. It has no place in modern society.
I reckon he met Vance and realised he'd failed, so gave up...
I can well believe that having to try to talk any form of sense with Vance means that he'll have been banging his head against a wall repeatedly. Probably died from the resultant brain haemorrhage.
religon in any form is just social poison
I mean, I'm as godless as the next atheist, but that's demonstrable nonsense.
I'm increasingly anti-theist... Athiesim, as far as I'm concerened, is just sitting on the fence. Grow a spine and make your mind up.
The occasional token 'good' gestures of the indoctrinated donors (sorry ' faithfull worshipers') who can ill afford it, are far out weighted by the crimes agaist humanity, and nature, they collectivley encorage to spread their disease to others.
I might have had a little bit of respect for the pope if he had taken out Vance as his last act.
I just think it's tragic for those who are brainwashed... religon in any form is just social poison. It has no place in modern society.
Hmm, so you want to be tolerant and inclusive, but only if people see things your way, yes? Sounds awfully familiar.
The occasional token 'good' gestures of the indoctrinated donors (sorry ' faithfull worshipers') who can ill afford it, are far out weighted by the crimes agaist humanity, and nature, they collectivley encorage to spread their disease to others.
What you fail to see is that those things aren't linked. People who are arseholes are such regardless of religion or anything else. Intolerance, ignorance and rigid thinking are much bigger problems and you're displaying plenty of all three.
It's a bit like.. motorbikes. Do motorbikes make people into arseholes on the road? Or are arseholes simply inclined to get motorbikes and rag them about in a dangerous anti-social manner? If there were no motorbikes, would they be doing it in cars instead? Are there lots of sensible riders who take good care and are nice, or who just want to get to work quickly and easily?
I don't think religion has the monopoly on brainwashing and judging by levels of church attendance is absolutely lousy at it compared with Farage, Putin, Moa, Jordan Peterson, Tate, Trump, AfD... .
Humans seem to be naturally superstitious and inventive when it comes to the unknown. They'll believe in all sorts of shite and those beliefs will get them doing all sorts of stuff from going round serving hot drinks and food to the homeless to protesting outside abortion clinics. Take away your "social poison" and what you're left with is in many repsects worse; a moral vacuum is no better than a dodgy set morals. We live in societies in which the law of the land is still very much based on christian values some of which you probably agree with and some you probably don't. The more "poisonous" verses from leveticus have slowly been purged from the legal texts and what remains of christian values in our legal and moral system I see as largely positive. We don't generally stone adulterers any more or imprison homosexuals though some would still like to, and women don't belong to their husbands though some blokes still seem to think they do. Hopefull the next Pope will be a litle bit more progressive than the last because like it or not he'll be the moral and spirtual leader for many. I was happy to go to see the Pope but Farage can do one.
Is it too soon to ask why an all-loving, all-powerful god would ruin Easter for a billion of his followers?
Whatcha talking about? It was the perfect departure for a pope. The Good Lord preserved and sustained him during his numerous recent health scares just so the Pope could celebrate with his flock the joyous occasion of Easter.
The Holy Father's final words to over a billion Catholics was "Happy Easter to everyone!"
After that all that was left was to turn off the lights.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g9577g1k1o
A moral vacuum?
I'm sorry, but if you need to pay a subscription, and read a book, to tell you that you shouldn't rape children or beat your wife.... 🤪
For every one who's ****ed up I suggest there are many who find comfort and strength in their faith. After all those walks with pilgrims I view personal faith quite positively but organised religion not so favourably
That explains my own position far more eloquently than I have ever managed.
morals came before Christianity. Read Kant.
That's because you have Christian values, Mattyfez. Now have a look at societies with other values.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Many-women-justify-wife-beating/articleshow/2450975.cms
so called Christian values predate Christianity
Well most of them are found in the Hebrew texts, TJ, which Christ himself was brought up with. He was a Jew and brought up with Jewish values.
morals came before Christianity. Read Kant.
Putting aside the fact that it is completely off topic I don't understand why you feel the need to make that point.
I have no doubt at all that, for example, Benjamin Netanyahu feels completely morally justified in murdering over 50 thousand Palestinians in the last 18 months.
Yes everyone has their own moral compass but I reckon that Jesus Christ's moral compass was pretty faultless, they certainly chime with mine.
It's a shame that unlike JC I'm just a wretched sinner though.
That's because you have Christian values, Mattyfez. Now have a look at societies with other values.
I have my values... to accuse me of having 'christian' vaues is just abject nonsence, and frankly, deeply offensive - but you know this and I suspect you are trying desperately to get a rise.
Different flavours of christans have vastly different values, according to what they are told by some random preist, pastor, bishop, bloke in a silly hat, etc... And that's just contemporary 'christians'.
The entire concept of religon is so utterly ridiculous, it changes according to who you listen to... and which way the wind is blowing at any given time.
if you can't see that, then you are part of the problem.
I have my values... to accuse me of having 'christian' vaues is just abject nonsence, and frankly, deeply offensive - but you know this and I suspect you are trying desperately to get a rise.
Well that escalated quickly
I have my values... to accuse me of having 'christian' vaues is just abject nonsence, and frankly, deeply offensive - but you know this and I suspect you are trying desperately to get a rise.
I'm really not being offensive or trying to get a rise, I'm stating the blindingly obvious, you've been brought up in a continent dominated by christianity for centuries, the education you recieved embodies christian values, the moral code, the history, the law... they all have their roots in Christianity.
This appears to be going the way all STW religion threads go. 🙁
Goodnight, and may your God go with you (if you feel the need for one, fine if you don't)
morality predates Christianity.
the moral code, the history, the law... they all have their roots in Christianity.
this is simply false
Christian morality is highly misogynistic and homophobic
I have my values... to accuse me of having 'christian' vaues is just abject nonsence, and frankly, deeply offensive - but you know this and I suspect you are trying desperately to get a rise.
Well that escalated quickly
Yeah , I think I'm done with this thread for the evening!
I'm just glad there's one less 'gatekeeper of morality' alive... may the pope burn in the hell he fabricated, or at least, did a lot of work to perpetuate the myth thereof.
Nice to see the ancient and well-trodden traditions being observed when it comes to religious matters.
And not just on STW, but in the Vatican too!
Organised Christian religion is both of those, TJ. The churches rely heavily on Leviticus, Moses and even what went before and it's unfortunate that Christ(ianity) who was somewhat more progressive gets tarred with the same brush. The really nasty stuff is mainly in the Hebrew texts, the Greek stuff relating to the life of christ is much more right on. But then what would I know, I've already said I'm an agnostic geologist.
I have my values... to accuse me of having 'christian' vaues is just abject nonsence, and frankly, deeply offensive - but you know this and I suspect you are trying desperately to get a rise.
I'm really not being offensive or trying to get a rise, I'm stating the blindingly obvious, you've been brought up in a continent dominated by christianity for centuries, the education you recieved embodies christian values, the moral code, the history, the law... they all have their roots in Christianity.
This appears to be going the way all STW religion threads go. 🙁
Goodnight, and may your God go with you (if you feel the need for one, fine if you don't)
Yes, no offence intended..you can belive whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone else...
you've been brought up in a continent dominated by christianity for centuries, the education you recieved embodies christian values, the moral code, the history, the law... they all have their roots in Christianity.
Correlation does not equal causation... if you were really an 'educator' then this should be a pretty basic concept for you.
Good night, sleep well. etc.
An endless procession of stale old guys who last a few years and are then replaced with the next oldest cab off the rank? Hardly winning over new converts? Feel more like the USSR pre Gorbachev.
And the USA, Post-Obama !
My partner is the producer of a rather large, live, national radio show. The opening track this afternoon was due to be 'Another one bites the dust', played straight after the news.
Apparently this morning was rather stressful, having to completely re-build the show!
My partner is the producer of a rather large, live, national radio show. The opening track this afternoon was due to be 'Another one bites the dust', played straight after the news.
Apparently this morning was rather stressful, having to completely re-build the show!
Ninja move: replace 'another one bites the dust' by Queen, with 'who want's to live forever' by Queen. Easy 😆
Right, that's my last comment tonight. Honest.
I'm not sure if posting the wife beating link to show the superiority of Christian values really says what you think it does.
Why don't we take a trip to some of the more Christian parts of Africa and see how the attitudes to wife beating compare to those in India shall we?
Perhaps what you view as Christian values are, in fact, Western secular values that began coming about after the Enlightenment when we finally managed to start ridding our society of the mysticism and strict hierarchical structures imposed by the Church.
Secular values that I'm sure many Christians would like to see rolled back to a greater or lesser extent. Weren't thing just better when everyone had to go to church, after all?
Yesterday, the Pope made a public appearance in St Peter's Square and met JD Vance briefly. This morning, he died.
Holy smokes, that must have been some confession!
Holy smokes, that must have been some confession!
Judging by the expression on the Pope’s face as Vance takes his hand, he looks like his worst nightmare has arrived in front of him!
That's because you have Christian values, Mattyfez. Now have a look at societies with other values.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Many-women-justify-wife-beating/articleshow/2450975.cms
this is an absolutely pisspoor take when you look at cross-national data on attitudes towards violence against women. Societies that are highly Christian, barely Christian, not Christian at all are all mixed up in their attitudes. There is no neat line between "Christian values" and VAWG in either direction.
I think a couple of people on this thread would do well to remember the little known 11th Commandment;
"There's no need to be a dick about it"
I thought Conclave was OK, describing it as a thriller was pushing it a bit. Anyone ascribing any sort of singular perspective on "The Church" or "Christianity" as if they are monolithic blocs that are all populated with people who think the same way are either mostly just saying that they really don't like religion, or haven't read any history. Ever.
Every corridor, every room, every chapel, every part of the building is literally covered in near priceless works of art. It is overwhelming, it is nauseating. Gold leaf covering everything, sculptures, frescos, jewels, it is dripping in wealth. This same organisation then goes to Africa and preaches to poor people and encourages them to make donations to the church.
Even before we'd got to the Vatican on our holiday 20+ years ago, we went to one of the four main cathedrals of Rome (Santa Maria Maggiore).
I had the same thought about ten seconds after entering, when I looked up at the ceiling.
If you take a step back and appraise the Catholic church as a business, it sure is one heck of a business model.
As a very lapsed Catholic*, I find the present media attention being paid to the popes death somewhat bizarre. Listening to the reporting in the media of what will now take place to select the next pope illustrates what an arcane and almost medieval organisation it is.
Obviously the only women involved in the process will be doing the cleaning or catering in the Vatican and ultimately, we all know that they’ll just select another old white man who will have lived a life completely detached from what is most peoples day to day reality.
After watching in disbelief the tone-death shenanigans at the Church of England recently, I expect the Catholic Church to now say ‘hold my communion wine….’
* if you want to ensure a lifelong suspicion of or active hostility to organised religion, then giving someone a catholic education is a good place to start
Well I'd certainly advise any objective person to have a bit of a read-up on Jesus's various instructions/lessons/parables (especially those around wealth etc) before setting foot in a grand cathedral - then try to square the two. It's not easy - unless you BELIEVE, presumably.