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Next to our office in Monument, there are (were) ten pubs or bars within a stone's throw.
I can't see all of them being open when we go back to "normal".
but all our local coffee shops have queues outside them all day with people getting their fix
The key thing being local....
How many Prets are there in London City centre? How's the footfall down Leadgate St or Cheapside just now?
Next to our office in Monument, there are (were) ten pubs or bars within a stone’s throw
Bit o/t but had some very heavy nights in a few of those. Dodgy minicab home from Fuego was always a high point of the social season.
Back on thread I think a lot will come back as youngsters get a lot of their social life via work. I know kids at my wife’s place are gagging to get back in the office as working from home is solitary and a bit shit if you’re in a house share.
No they can’t, they can hire the best person they CAN get, not THE best person.
Right, so that means that companies will have to offer better terms to get the people. More competition for employees means better terms for employees....
... that is, the kind of employees who can work from home, who have desirable skills and qualifications. People who work in McDonalds or deliver Amazon parcels aren't going to see any of that benefit.
I think this is exactly why we need a flexible solution going forwards. Im pretty much totally the opposite. I live about a 40 min cycle from work, miss the office, miss the people in it, miss working as a team not online, I miss extended bike rides home with the people i work with for chat laps. Im that odd person who would be more than happy to go back to “normal” in the office 9-5 mon-fri. Just because a few people don’t want it why shouldn’t my needs / wants be catered for too. I know this isn’t what your but people seem to talk about it as if it’s one of the other when its not its both. If my company went 100% remote I would likely leave for a company that isn’t.
yeah the days of putting the kids to bed on Sunday night then driving 5hrs to a rented box room in a london subburb to then sit at desk for 45hrs have got to be in the past now. they are for me anyway (fingers crossed) id be happy to do it one week in the month maybe, could upgrade digs and make a bit of a jolly out of it... i often ride my bike twice a day now, weather permitting, and i ride with my mates rather than on me tod.
Next to our office in Monument, there are (were) ten pubs or bars within a stone’s throw.
I can’t see all of them being open when we go back to “normal”.
i do miss the Thursday dinner time pintage actually!! and certaily missed the christmas shenanigans! but its still an easy swap.
but its still an easy swap
If you’ve a decent home, established social circle and effectively given up on life 😉 yes. Younger workers different kettle of fish, and after a why senior management will be “well if they’re in why aren’t their bosses?..People wfh on Friday and Monday are just skiving”, etc. I’m not sure it’s all set in stone that offices are dead by a long way.
The international IT services company I work for has decided that the default will be working from home in future, apart from where customer security requirements require office working.
They are going through the required statutory consultations about this, but have started to implement break clauses in office leases to reduce office space. They plan to reconfigure the remaining office space as collaboration spaces rather than allocated desks.
My employer is relaxed about where I live in the UK now I do not need to be in the office and this view enabled me to secure a new role in the summer of 2020 on a project with a base location elsewhere in the UK. Previously the run off of my previous role might have lead to redundancy if there was a role at my base location.
I already had a dedicated home working space which I previously used for personal learning and projects and that is true for most of my immediate colleagues. But for colleagues with out suitable space at home it is not so easy.
I have observed in the past it is harder (but not insurmountable) to get less experienced team members up to speed when mentors are remote.
It suits me to have a more spread out working day, when I get stuck or waiting for a colleague I take a break from work. So my start and end time is fairly similar to my leave for work and arrive home time in my old life.
I also do not get wound up or distracted by those near by to me in the office.
So for me the office building is dead, and think the same is true for most of our competitors in the IT services market.
Posted in this thread earlier (I think)
But now my partner has had a month in her new job it appears her employer (medium sized advertising agency) is totally on board with remote working.
She is under no pressure to go to the s****y new (but smaller) office until she’s vaccinated and happy to travel, even then you still don’t have to and a diary system will show if you are going to be there. All the directors live outside of London and will not be coming in much either.
Presenteeism is a pointless way of working when it’s results that matter.
I do wonder about those big network agencies that have leased or bought huge expensive buildings in prime sites such as Bankside (TBWA) and omicron with Sea Containers House at Blackfriars, huge buildings that are now going to be half empty.
The international IT services company I work for has decided that the default will be working from home in future
I could've written most of this post.
We were told by our CEO right at the start of all this that WFH would be the 'new normal' for those who wanted it after we get through the other side of this. I love it, for many of the same reasons you cite, but I was WFH beforehand anyway. The only real reason for me to go into an office on any sort of regular basis would be to socialise, and I'm a higher-functioning sociopath so Teams will do fine, thanks.
I've said this before, but I do rather wonder whether this is the beginning of the end for huge sprawling cities being power centres. You have head offices in London because that's just where you have offices. "We've always done it this way" but what's the point now? Who's still going to want to live in the commuter belt when they don't have to commute three hours each day any more? I reckon the leafier parts of this little island are going to start seeing some new money quite soon.
I'm reminded of the opening line to Shadowrun. "The world has changed. Some say, Awakened."
She is under no pressure to go to the s****y new (but smaller) office until she’s vaccinated and happy to travel, even then you still don’t have to
I keep seeing variations on this post, or the opposite, so it's probably worth mentioning again,
If you've worked somewhere for six months then this is a legal requirement. If you can WFH, and you want to do so, an employer must justify why they think you have to go into an office. There has to be a valid business reason, "because I say so" doesn't cut it.
People who work in McDonalds or deliver Amazon parcels aren’t going to see any of that benefit.
Maybe not directly wfh, but hopefully a shift away from offices & commuter belts will see property prices level out across the country, and hopefully easi g pressure on schooling, infrastructure etc
Tho this will all need a government who is aware that things have changed, not trying to turn back the clock
Despite my provocative thread title I know the office isn't dead, it'll just be smaller, cheaper, more flexible.
Work colleagues socialising is still key to a good team & wfh is not an option for many, so there will always be office spaces, but team building weeks away can help build camaraderie , still do the Xmas party etc
The companies that can adapt to this will do well.
Even schooling could well change - my kids primary class have zoom registration every morning then a well ordered set of activities, videos etc to do through the day, one of the kids is riding this out with family in India, so he gives the class a weather update and for him school starts at lunch time.
(as a parent of too many kids homeschooling is still hell)
I have colleagues who struggle to work from home - not enough space, privacy, poor wifi etc. There will need to be a mix to suit everyone
that's because people have been caught out by this - anyone moving house from now who has that kind of role is probably going to put more consideration into home working space, internet access etc, rather than proximity to office/ease of commute as they might've done before! Or, hopefully, suburban shared offices/co-working spaces etc become more of "a thing"I have colleagues who struggle to work from home – not enough space, privacy, poor wifi etc. There will need to be a mix to suit everyone
Interesting point Cougar about the laws around WFH. I have turned down a job move for fear of being pressured into the office in short order...
I'd love an office job right now. Not for the money, nor the work, just to mix with people again. I've had it with lockdown and the same few faces and nowhere to get away.
suburban shared offices/co-working spaces etc become more of “a thing”
Deffo - the benefits of human contact and a start / end time without the hassle of a major commute.
I’d love an office job right now. Not for the money, nor the work, just to mix with people again. I’ve had it with lockdown and the same few faces and nowhere to get away.
Im with you dude, im so over working from home. My setup isn't that bad, but I would much rather be in an office with people and talk about the stuff we are doing rather than sending endless slack and email messages.
suburban shared offices/co-working spaces etc become more of “a thing”
these are such a non starter for me. who pays for them? The team im in is split across london it would require us all to live near the same co work space. Its not about chatting to anyone that isnt my GF its about talking to the people I work with building relationships, sharing ideas, solving problems together rather than isolation and so on.
I have colleagues who struggle to work from home – not enough space, privacy, poor wifi etc. There will need to be a mix to suit everyone
that’s because people have been caught out by this
Nu-huh, exactly. This is a Brave New World, it will take time to adjust. People don't have home offices because they've never needed them until now. I've just moved house and it was a primary requirement, before the move I was working on a 1m wide Ikea desk stuck in the corner of the living room trying to concentrate whilst my OH watched shit* daytime TV. My boss asked if I needed a second monitor, I was like "sure, I'll Sellotape it to the kitchen door".
For many people the infrastructure simply isn't there yet. This will change. New-build property developers who build 4-bedroomed properties in a floorplan smaller than the 2-bed I've just left are going to be laughing all the way to the bank.
I refer you back to my earlier London Money comment, how much Northern property is someone going to get from the sale of a modest London flat? The average house price in London is half a million. I sold my old 2-up 2-down for £60k. Granted that's an outlier of course, but you can get something half decent in say Keswick twice over if you've got £500k in your back pocket.
(* is there any other kind?)
If people can remote work from home, then they can also remote work from offices. So we might see many smaller offices around the city or around the country. This would allow people to have social interaction but also spread the load around a bit. It's bonkers that 10 million people are all trying to live in essentially the same place, really.
but what’s the point now? Who’s still going to want to live in the commuter belt when they don’t have to commute three hours each day any more?
People will still want to live near cities as it’s not just work that attracts people but all the other retail/cultural/sporting/travel infrastructure etc.
Big businesses will still want to be in transport hubs despite the need for less business travel.
Don’t get me wrong, I love and grew up in the countryside and need my fix but I couldn’t live there (yet) unless it was a 45min train ride away from London.
I wouldn’t be doing that journey every day (or week) either.
We both now have very flexible working so will end up with house an hour away from London and keep one of our flats. Can’t be the only ones doing the same now home working is more accepted.
People will still want to live near cities as it’s not just work that attracts people but all the other retail/cultural/sporting/travel infrastructure etc.
Well yeah but that could be smaller cities or even towns. I'd like to live in a small town but the reason I don't is that there would never have been a job for me. But if I WFH I easily can.
Well yeah but that could be smaller cities or even towns. I’d like to live in a small town but the reason I don’t is that there would never have been a job for me. But if I WFH I easily can.
What about about if you actually don't want it to be a smaller town? I feel like this a concept some people just can't grasp. Some people myself included actually like living in a big city and want to go "back to how it was" as hard that is for some to believe. I grew up in London the idea of living in a small town where I have to drive to the supermarket, don't have every type of restaurant at my doorstep or the end of an app and can't rely on a tube or bus to get me somewhere is madness.
but what’s the point now? Who’s still going to want to live in the commuter belt when they don’t have to commute three hours each day any more?
People will still want to live near cities as it’s not just work that attracts people but all the other retail/cultural/sporting/travel infrastructure etc.
Big businesses will still want to be in transport hubs despite the need for less business travel.
Absolutely, nothing is ever as all-or-nothing as, well the Internet makes it seem. London won't suddenly become a ghost town, nor will the Yorkshire Dales suddenly had a population of 8m.
suburban shared offices/co-working spaces etc become more of “a thing”
No doubt.
It's an interesting thought, if I had more space, or the money for one of those Garden offices (I could split 50/50 with a bike store workshop obvs) I'd want to share with my Wife, she's NHS but her office has been turned into a ward and there's no sign of it coming back, she's community based and home is her office.
There's no reason why we can't share an office (okay, the NHS has some rules on people being able to see over your shoulder when accessing patient files, but not unworkable).
A few of my Mates are also WFH at the moment, and plan to going forward. I doubt there's much stopping you sharing an office with your friends either. Mine all do wildly different jobs to me, but we all spend hours a day pushing a mouse around, so why not?
Granted that’s an outlier of course, but you can get something half decent in say Keswick twice over if you’ve got £500k in your back pocket.
Assuming adequate internet connection the number of outdoor enthusiasts within the IT/banking/whatever industries* able to drop many hundreds of thousands on property in desirable places like Keswick are going to drastically outstrip the supply.
If you are thinking "ooh I can move somewhere with great mtb, walking etc from the door" I assure you there is someone else thinking the same who makes 10 times what you do who is about to price you out.
*probably a tiny percentage of the total, but still huge numbers when applied to the smallish towns in question.
We are vastly more productive in full WFH.
Was talking to a PA the other day, she said that one of the main things WFH / lockdown meant was no need to book travel any more. No longer was it a case of shuffling meetings around, working out how long to leave at the station in case of delays, how long to walk to the meeting point, blocking out diary for travel, booking tickets etc.
Her boss could attend 4 meetings in one day without even leaving his kitchen compared to one meeting per day with a load of wasted travel time in between. Or (as happened occasionally), a meeting being missed altogether due to public transport cancellations. Meetings are far better attended now that everyone can dial in rather than getting trains from all over to one meeting point.
Some people myself included actually like living in a big city
Of course, but once all the people who don't want to be there have moved out, the city will be better for all the people who do want to live there. Afforable houses, less traffic etc.
living in a small town where I have to drive to the supermarket
Mate you walk to the supermarket in small towns, cos they're small!
Some people myself included actually like living in a big city
Sure, and that's a perfectly cromulent reason to do so. My point was rather that many people no longer have to.
I grew up in London the idea of living in a small town where I have to drive to the supermarket, don’t have every type of restaurant at my doorstep or the end of an app and can’t rely on a tube or bus to get me somewhere is madness.
And conversely, this is the concept you're not grasping.
I live in a small town (population's about 10k I think?). Next door but three is a chip shop. Inside of two minutes' walk there's both a large and a small-but-overpriced convenience store, a couple of Chinese takeaway places and a large Chinese restaurant, another chippy, a baker, a butcher, an 'artisan' cupcake shop, a traditional sweet shop, like three hardware stores (one of which is a proper old-school ironmongery / Arkwright's shop place), a greengrocer, a couple of Indian takeaways, a highway-kebabbery type chicken / pizza / mystery meat place, a proper authentic Italian style rustic pizzeria which is _amazing_... Tesco, it's a toss-up as to whether it's quicker to drive or walk, it's five minutes' on shank's pony but you probably don't want to lug a week's shop back up the hill.
[EDIT: oh yeah, and a metric shitload of pubs, when they ever reopen. The nearest is 100 yards away.]
Having to rely on the Tube or bus to get you somewhere is madness. I'm already here. (-:
Oh, and we've just been given free money, so there's a whole urban renewal scheme in progress. All the shops are getting new store fronts, the roads are being upgraded, loads of improvements. We're getting a Lidl or an Aldi too I think.
I'm five minutes from the M66 to Manchester, or less to the East-West M65 which takes me to the M6 inside of 20 minutes. In an hour I can be in city centre Manchester, the edge of the Lake District (circa Kendal probably), through the Yorkshire Dales and out the other side, or the Western Edge of the Peak District. Then there's Nidderdale, Bowland, North Pennines, all classed as Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty. Hell, if I was feeling particularly masochistic I can be in Blackpool in 45 minutes and go for a paddle.
Why the hell would anyone want to live somewhere where you can be in the city, travel for two hours and still be in the same city? Yet many people seemingly do. It'd be boring if we were all the same I suppose.
If you are thinking “ooh I can move somewhere with great mtb, walking etc from the door” I assure you there is someone else thinking the same who makes 10 times what you do who is about to price you out.
Of course. But redistribution of wealth across the country isn't necessarily a bad thing, is it?
Was talking to a PA the other day, she said that one of the main things WFH / lockdown meant was no need to book travel any more. No longer was it a case of shuffling meetings around, working out how long to leave at the station in case of delays, how long to walk to the meeting point, blocking out diary for travel, booking tickets etc.
And about time too.
This is an argument I've been having for over a decade. "Can you pop down to London for a team meeting?" I work for a gods damned telecommunications provider, we have a VC suite in every office. No, I can't just 'pop down,' I live 250 miles away, the last time I just popped down it took me something like nine hours to get home.
hopefully, suburban shared offices/co-working spaces etc become more of “a thing”
I've never understood why this isn't a thing already, especially for the civil service. We've closed small offices all round the country and lost thousands of experienced staff who couldn't travel to the new centralised sites, but 3-4 departments sharing a smaller office space should have been workable.
It's really not that easy having a couple working from home. MrsMC is a social worker, I do potential fraud investigations. We REALLY shouldn't be able to overhear each other talking on the phone. Neighbours and passersby certainly shouldn't be able to hear us if we want to have the windows open in nice weather. Fitting two proper workspaces into a busy family house gets expensive. Employers aren't going to be passing on that much of their floor space saving in salary
We REALLY shouldn’t be able to overhear each other talking on the phone
You likely legally shouldn't be able to. GDPR?
This is a great point, and it's a massive problem that no-one seems to be talking about. "Don't you trust me?" Of course I do or I wouldn't be living with you. But the stuff I work with, my partner walks in at the wrong moment and I could lose my job over it. Or worse.
If you are thinking “ooh I can move somewhere with great mtb, walking etc from the door” I assure you there is someone else thinking the same who makes 10 times what you do who is about to price you out.
Not necessarily. Within 45 mins of London there is, but that's cos everyone wants to be in London. There is enough Britain to go round as long as everyone doesn't crowd into the same corner.
When companies realise the cost of equipping home workers properly (after the first few test cases of bad back, constructive dismissal etc) they'll be gagging for a mandated return to offices.
Having to rely on the Tube or bus to get you somewhere is madness. I’m already here. (-:
I have all you described and more 2 min walk away, art house cinema, posh chocolate shop, couple of beer brew shops/bars etc etc (and the city centre 25min away), it’s the outlying small communities that are going to benefit post COVID as more flexible working means staying local for a bite to eat, longer lunch in a cafe or meal out after work, that money would have been spent nearer the office.
It’s been changing before COVID but it was mums with their huge prams but now it’s working people spending the money during the week.
The city centre will be more for destination shopping, culture and tourists.
My employer has a large office near a (fairly expensive) town, with many other towns scattered around. So I reckon most people live in a small down with a few dozen or a few hundred colleagues. They could shut the big office and hire loads of small ones in the towns, for people to meet, eat, have coffee etc. All the towns are close enough to drive between so it'd be easy to have meetings or even just go to see your colleagues for a chat every so often. This would be better and possibly cheaper than maintaining a big building. Basically, have 80% of people WFH on any given day and the other 20% scattered around mini offices in the same area.
I have a working from home job with trips away in normal times. My decision making in applying for the role two years ago was based on whether I could manage being on my own. As the trips were postponed and I spent more time alone my mental well-being has fallen apart. I am desperate for an office based job. I think this working from home business is a mental health time bomb. I really don't believe as human beings we are meant to live in isolation.
When companies realise the cost of equipping home workers properly (after the first few test cases of bad back
Is an office chair for home more expensive than an office chair for an office?
This is something else which needs to change, and the cost savings in offices should offset it. My employer generously contributes... I think it's £50 towards a chair and £60 towards a desk, and a few other sundries. Could be the other way about. Equipping my office cost me several times that.
An employer's responsibility towards its staff doesn't change because you're WFH, they're still legally bound to make sure you're safe. Can you imagine turning up at an office on your first day of work to be told to go buy a desk out of your own pocket?
I really don’t believe as human beings we are meant to live in isolation.
People are different.
There's a meme been going round, to paraphrase: "Introverts! Check on your extrovert friends! They're not used to this, they're not OK."
I'd put a baton behind the door for twelve hours a day if I thought I'd get away with it.
I really don’t believe as human beings we are meant to live in isolation.
It's a gross over simplification but.... don't live in isolation
WFH doesn't have to be that way. In more relaxed times there are loads of social outlets unless you're right out in the sticks. Even with social distancing I've got to know a whole bunch of people since the pandemic kicked off.
suburban shared offices/co-working spaces etc become more of “a thing”
This is such a cool idea. I can imagine myself and a bunch of locals in similar situations all sharing a small office space. An office full of people you already know and like. All doing jobs completely separate from each other, no competition, just a nice environment. Especially if as suggested in this thread we started being taxed to WFH...
My work (public sector) have consulted us on changing our contracts from "occasional home worker" to "occasional office worker". We'll be expected to go into the office at our own discretion but will basically work from home or wherever else as we see fit and agreed locally with line managers.
I welcome it. I'm much more productive at home, the work/home life balance is great and going forward, i'll be able to drop into the office for selective meetings or for a catch up with colleagues.
Genuinely not sure if I'd want to go back to an office, I quite like WFH.
Plus I've got various activities that I'd used to have to squeeze in before / after work during the day eg French lesson on Tues afternoon and PT session Thursday mid morning (via Zoom).
At peak staffing my team would have around 15 in one office, we’ve just sign the lease on new premises and we have 6 desks.
I hate the thought of having to go back and work in an office. However the signs are that my company is going to offer people the choice of where and how to work in future. The company branding promotes itself as being people-centric and liberal so I'm optimistic that we won't be forced back into the office. I still worry though that the flexible way of working will be kiboshed at the local level by managers who are far less people-centric and can't wait to get back to the way things were. In some ways I think what happens after all this is over will be a test of exactly how forward thinking, flexible and innovative this organisation is as a whole.
Companies that are looking to cut costs seem to be keen to embrace wfh as an option
I share an office room with two others. Whilst we're in the same team, we don't actually work on the same stuff. Senior bosses have been mentioning a two days a week office minimum. All those managers work hundreds of miles away so it'd have zero impact if I worked at home or not. One keeps mentioning 'those valuable workplace discussions' - it's utter twaddle. I just don't get what they're worried about. If you love office life then great, go in but if you don't for whatever reason then I think it's sad trying to get people to spend time in a damaging place.