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So what does the new party call itself then?
Ideas on a postcard, please.
"Indy Centrists"
or
"The Indy Party"
I like Non Aligned Independants
Leaving aside the logical flaw of how you can have non aligned independent party anything with independent in the title is likely to run into problems with the Electoral commission. Since it would confuse actual independent candidates with the funny tinge party.
I did hear someone in the office say “What about this new 3rd party” to which a couple of us said, what about the Lib-dems?
Oh I don't know... who are the 3rd biggest party in Westminster?
by membership:
As of April 2018, Labour had 540,000 members, compared to just under 125,500 SNP members as of August 2018, and 124,000 Conservative members reported in March 2018. As of August 2018, The Liberal Democrats had 99,200, Green Party 39,400, UKIP 23,600 and Plaid Cymru 8,000 members. Party membership has risen notably since 2013, both in total and as a percentage of the electorate.ghgh
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN05125
Great photo
Just watched their news conference and found them refreshingly blunt and straightforward.
That is because they have no manifesto, no party line, no leader. They can say exactly what they want. All MPs should be independent with no party alignment. Then you really would be voting for what your MP stands for and the actions they take.
Not sure how parliament would work with 600+ independent MPs but couldn't be any worse than current system
“The Indy Party”
I’d vote for them if the candidates name was Anna Jones
I wonder how this will effect MPs still within Parties who perhaps don't agree with their leaders?
The whip system was always a powerful one, if you're not familiar a '3 line whip' that's been mentioned a lot recently basically means "vote, and vote as we tell you, or leave the Party" - it was always the ultimate threat for MPs, but now, whilst still very risky - there is a home for those who no longer fit in with their party (well, as long as you're alighted with the 11 I assume).
Yeah, the stakes are high for all of us, but I don't remember the last time UK politics was so interesting.
surroundedbyhills
Subscriber
party membership also doesn't really mean much beyond a nice feel good factor for the members going on that evidence.
The more members the less need for big business donations? Labour was broke before J.C took over.
Careful what you wish for folks.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/tony-blair-tipped-to-be-next-to-join-independent-group/20/02/
Will they contest the Newport by-election?...
About time a Centerist Party exists, and I’m a member of the LDems.. 🤷♂️
Careful what you wish for folks.
Oh well, it was fun whilst it lasted.
It would be nice if Tony Blair could be neutralised or contained.
How about "A Brighter Britain"
Labour was broke before J.C took over.
Not just cash but also in direct participation eg going out canvassing and so on.
The numbers game was why the Tories had to have the flying squad of young tories which ended up very dysfunctional.
Careful what you wish for folks.
I noticed it was being reported by The Express ‘newspaper’ as well... we’ll see. Sounds like a dog whistle to me.
If my local Labour MP wishes to join them, he’ll have my support.
We have already had a flyer from a group of local Liberals and Tories supporting his pro remain stance.
tbh I'd prefer it if they could manage not to become a party, or atleast if they did become a party, they do away with the whip. Which for me if the most undemocratic thing about the parliamentary system. Politicians are meant to represent their constituents, not the party leadership.
About time a Centerist Party exists
Labour (even under JC) The lib dems, and SNP are all pretty centrist. The problem is that the tories and nu labour have dragged the country so far to the right over the past 40 years, everyone has lost sight of where the centre really is.
I'll be interested to see how long this lasts. What happens when Allen starts manoeuvring to be the leader of this new party which she clearly covets after that speech today? Chukka won't like that as he thinks he's the new Macron and very much sees this as his brainchild. Also they're such a motley crew that they'll be disagreeing from the start once they actually have to think of some policies. And then there's the deadweight of Gapes, Ryan, Smith, and Shuker, who were previously anonymous due to being completely devoid of any personality, competence or ideas. And this is without even considering that there's precious little evidence of any real public support for a centrist party. Politics is polarised because the public are too. WIth brexit about to explode another bomb when we hit the end of March I doubt that's going to improve.
The parliamentary voting record of the three Tory defectors speaks volumes for what they really believe.How come they've suddenly acquired a social conscience?
Labour’s policies aren’t that far left of centre by European standards. They’d not have lost 8 MPs under competent leadership.
But yeah, double down on the attacks, never ever feel the need for a bit of introspection. That’s all been working really well these last few years.
Doesn't matter what Labour manifesto says, Corbyn has said many times he wants to respect the referendum result, so he is pro Brexit. No doubts about it.
Supporting Labour and Corbyn equals to supporting Brexit.
You can’t deny it.
The thing I really don't get is that most Labour supporters seems convinced he's anti Brexit and will ride to the rescue if only we could have GE. I put his enthusiasm for Brexit only just behind Farages...
So what does the new party call itself then?
Ideas on a postcard, please.
The Neoliberal Democrats
WIth brexit about to explode another bomb when we hit the end of March I doubt that’s going to improve.
I'll speculate that the whole point of this is to get enough mps over so they can try and affect the majority in parliament and stop brexit? or at least force a general election?
They've got a month to neutralise the tory/dup pact. A lot can happen in that time I guess. You wonder how many will get itchy feet...
I don't really see a party being the main goal of this group at the minute? There sole purpose really should be this single issue right now?
Asking questions, as I don't really know what to make of them or how much they can grow their numbers in the next month?
looking at the numbers.
650 MPs - 7 SF - 1 Speaker - 1 vacant seat = 641 / 2 = 320.5, so 321 needed for a majority.
tory majority is currently only sitting at 325 (314tory+10dup+1independent unionist).
So 5 more tories defect and the government lose overall control of parliament? if Corbyn could get his party in order and align with all the rest of the others they could take the decision out of the tories hands?
What are the chances of 5 more tories jumping over the next month?
Do you really think Corbyn will do anything to stop Brexit?
It is the big question mark in the equation, who the heck knows...
I'd think he'd look ridiculous if he didn't take the option of no deal away from the tories and the DUP if he got the chance though. Probably the minimum you could expect. Which form that would take, extension, new deal or vote, I dunno.
I also wonder if the tories did lose the numbers, would there have to be a GE, or could a new coalition just step in? Need to elect a new PM? (Though it'd be funny if May jumped ship! 😆 )
So 5 more tories defect and the government lose overall control of parliament? if Corbyn could get his party in order and align with all the rest of the others they could take the decision out of the tories hands?
What are the chances of 5 more tories jumping over the next month?
Does that not misunderstand the way the new Independent Group works? They won't have a "whip" and will be free to vote individually (although I am sure they will cooperate collectively on a lot of things). To imagine that "8" ex-tory MP's would actually vote FOR a move that puts Corbyn/Hard-left Labour in power is rather different from them saying they can no longer be presumed to support most government motions. Given Chuka said he didn't think JC should be PM then I'm not sure even the ex-Labour group would be that keen!
That's before you've tackled the issue of getting Labour to work with the SNP.
I also wonder if the tories did lose the numbers, would there have to be a GE, or could a new coalition just step in? Need to elect a new PM? (Though it’d be funny if May jumped ship! 😆 )
Legally/constitutionally there is no need for a GE. I doubt how long anyone else could hold it together without having a "mandate" (as they all like to claim they get from a broke First-past-the-post system) for their manifesto (which would inevitably require compromise).
They wouldn't be putting Corbyn in power, in the case of a GE TIG candidates in the right places, they'd be costing more Labour seats!
That said if what Heidi Allan is right 1/3rd of Tories would go TIG if we end up with no deal.
Interesting times, if Toyota announce closure any time soon I could see some more defections!
The Neoliberal Democrats
👏
I’ve been looking at their website and it’s a work of spectacular mediocrity when it comes to what they actually believe in. To paraphrase:
- we love our country;
- good public services are important but some private business is OK too;
- more opportunity;
- better communities;
- democratic accountability;
- complying with national & International law
There’s nothing here that anyone from any party wouldn’t or couldn’t support. The most notable omission is a belief in progressive policies which redistribute wealth or any type of belief that business should act in the interests of the public. It’s a recipe for more of the same failed policies from the past 40 years.
Or a recipe for doing something useful in the country's hour of need?
I’ve been looking at their website and it’s a work of spectacular mediocrity when it comes to what they actually believe in.
Ummm - they're standing independelty so will all have differing views. There's no party manifesto, no central policies. Hence anything that can be said about all of them will tend to be a bit bland and mediocre.
if Corbyn could get his party in order and align with all the rest of the others they could take the decision out of the tories hands?
If he wanted to be in the Brexit hot seat he certainly could. Indeed, if he was a remainer he could join with the majority of the opposition parties to form a 'single issue' government, stop Brexit and immediately after call an election. [1] We'd be back to where we were in 2015 and each of the parties could then campaign on Leave or Remain ticket as they wished. [2]
But then if he wanted to to that he already would have, there would easily be enough Tory remainers to make that happen.
Instead winning power is of no interest to Corbyn, in fact the only two things Corbyn is interested in is leaving the EU without getting the blame for it and killing the Labour party. He's making a good go of the first but will ultimately fail, and has already succeeded in the second.
[1] It's easy to circumvent the fixed term Parliament Act.
[2] I think it's safe to say that all except UKIP would campaign to Remain.
I’ll be interested to see how long this lasts.
Just a matter of time before Luciana Berger - err, sorry, I mean "heavily pregnant Luciana Berger" - starts accusing her new colleagues of anti-Semitism
Ummm – they’re standing independelty so will all have differing views.
Indeed - some think austerity was an excellent idea, some think it was a very bad idea. And that's just for starters.
Indeed – some think austerity was an excellent idea, some think it was a very bad idea. And that’s just for starters.
They're all remainers, at the moment everything else is detail.
It's been interesting to me to see how each of the main parties has handled this.
The Tories are akin to 'Well, we're sorry we couldn't see eye to eye, perhaps they can return in the future'.
Labour are more like "Splitters! You should resign as MPs immediately before you gain as sort of traction so we can replace you with someone who only reads from the handbook - hey as luck would have it, we happen to have a Property Devleoping Trotskyist from Luciana's patch amongst us, erm, no wait he's gone again".
😉
Anyone interested in a deconstruction of this new 'movement' look no further... (read the whole thread btw)
https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1098266499184246785
Labour are more like
They're probably a bit pissed off at being labelled racists and anti-semites. If you've spent your entire political career fighting such things and are part of a party that has spent a century doing the same then that's not something you can simply shrug your shoulders about and agree to disagree.
It’s been interesting to me to see how each of the main parties has handled this.
The Tories are akin to ‘Well, we’re sorry we couldn’t see eye to eye, perhaps they can return in the future’.
Labour are more like “Splitters!
This.
They’re probably a bit pissed off at being labelled racists and anti-semites.
Quite. Whatever you think of Corbyn's leadership, he was organising against racists before I was born.
(read the whole thread btw)
A list of policies supported by Labour MPs before Corbyn became leader? I'll be interested in what they say in 2019.
Oh, and if you still think that those complaining about the antisemitism they faced as Labour members and MPs are making it up, or that it should be excused… I suggest listening to the deputy leader of the party, rather than the noise machines on Social Media. He's nailed it perfectly.
Does anyone take George Monbiot seriously these days?
Next you'll be telling us that Owen Jones is a sage and wise man!
Does anyone take George Monbiot seriously these days?
No, but it shouldn't be a surprise whenever we see a manifesto from this new party that it is on the conservative side of things (looking at who is in the party)
It will be a Cameron/Blair type thing.
Does anyone take George Monbiot seriously these days?
I guess it depends on whether you're open to new ideas or stuck in the past and it's deadend politics which have given us things like climate change, billionaire oligarchs, Donald Trump and brexit.
Chris Leslie was in my class at primary school.
I remember him making a very tall tower out of the wooden mathematical counting blocks.
A girl knocked it over.
I can’t remember what happened next.
It will be a Cameron/Blair type thing.
So it will win five elections back to back. (For a loose-ish definition of 'win' in the case of the former.)
(FWIW I doubt this 'thing' will ever become a real party.)
Oh, and if you still think that those complaining about the antisemitism they faced as Labour members and MPs are making it up
Are the 200 people who signed the letter to the Guardian making it up?
I'm quite prepared to believe that there is anti-semitism within the Labour party. Is it worse than the population in general? I don't know. Is it being dealt with effectively? Probably not. Is it being misused by those who wish to conflate it with legitimate criticism of Israel? Probably.
Anyway... Are we going to have a sweep for who's going to jump next?
I've not had a look what the bookies are giving as odds yet, but i think I'll stick a few quid on a few people later.
So I'm going for either Nikky Morgan or Dominic Grieve from the Tories, and from the Labour party I'm going for pretty much anyone, bar John McDonnell and Dianne Abbott, but just because it'd be really funny; Tom Watson 😀
Who do you reckon is worth sticking a few quid on then?
Chris Leslie was in my class at primary school.
I remember him making a very tall tower out of the wooden mathematical counting blocks.
A girl knocked it over.
I can’t remember what happened next.
At a guess, he cried.
Does anyone take George Monbiot seriously these days?
I read his piece on school strikes and apart from being a giddy attempt to get down with the kids it made absolutely no sense at all.
Who do you reckon is worth sticking a few quid on then?
Ken Clarke. Just for teh lolz
Has Tony Blair joined them yet?
I guess it depends on whether you’re open to new ideas or stuck in the past and it’s deadend politics which have given us things like climate change, billionaire oligarchs, Donald Trump and brexit.
Hahahaha. It's not one or the other, Trump or Monbiot, y'know.
Anyone interested in a deconstruction of this new ‘movement’ look no further… (read the whole thread btw)
No one seems to be interested in anything other than Brexit and keeping antisemitism rolling in the headlines at the behest of everything else.
We will need a plan after Brexit! No one dare talk about that.
It’s not one or the other, Trump or Monbiot, y’know.
As if Monbiot is the only one pointing out the obvious. I'd like to hear though why you think the current system is doing such a marvellous job, seeing as you appear to know it all.
No, I don't think the present system is doing well at all. You've extrapolated wildly from what I wrote.
However, Monbiot believes that technology does not have a place in combating climate change, probably because it would hand even more power to "corporations". The (technological) solution to climate change is more likely to come from Amazon or Google than from either government or grass roots movements as 1) they have plenty of cash to burn, 2) they are not short-termist or beholden to their electorate, like governments, 3) they want to keep selling stuff forever.
This BBC article has the breakdown of the party numbers in a handy graph
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47313366
there are 7 independent MPs in addition to the new IndyGroup of 11 so as HtS pointed out earlier with Ivan Lewis as a recent splitter, these should be the first priority for hoovering into the group but the big question is whether they are remainers.
I agree with ChrisL and perchy, Ken Clarke would be a great scalp to have - but would he risk the party he's been wedded to all his political life? his exit could be the start of the end...
There’s nothing here that anyone from any party wouldn’t or couldn’t support.
Sounds like a very effective 'manifesto' then, does it not? Why would you advertise policies that you think everyone would hate?
The name being used over on the Guardian comments is (drumroll)
The Blair Rich Project with a tag line Things Can Only get Bitter.
1) they have plenty of cash to burn, 2) they are not short-termist or beholden to their electorate, like governments, 3) they want to keep selling stuff forever.
A superb contradiction of your own argument there. Even if that wasn't the case, what evidence is there that either google or amazon, or any other big corporation for that matter are interested in solving climate change? I hate to break it to you, but the likes of Google and Amazon are the problem, not the solution.
Sounds like a very effective ‘manifesto’ then, does it not?
Depends how you measure 'effective'. If it's pulling the wool over people's eyes then yes, I suspect it will do the job. If it's solving the intractable and self-inflicted problems that we face as a civilisation, then I suspect it'll be as effective as those that came before it.
The (technological) solution to climate change is more likely to come from Amazon or Google than from either government or grass roots movements as 1) they have plenty of cash to burn, 2) they are not short-termist or beholden to their electorate, like governments, 3) they want to keep selling stuff forever.
A 19th century economist called William Jevons observed that as the efficiency with which a resource is used rises, paradoxically, the consumption of that resource rises because of rising demand.
For a more modern version, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazzoom%E2%80%93Brookes_postulate
The name being used over on the Guardian comments is (drumroll)
The Blair Rich Project with a tag line Things Can Only get Bitter.
So the smear campaign propaganda has already started then? That's a good sign that someone somewhere is worried.
Depends how you measure ‘effective’. If it’s pulling the wool over people’s eyes then yes, I suspect it will do the job. If it’s solving the intractable and self-inflicted problems that we face as a civilisation, then I suspect it’ll be as effective as those that came before it.
Maybe "attractive" would be a better word? I'm not quite sure why you immediately conclude that they're trying to deceive anyone, neither why you expect that an opening statement has to be about the end game.
Anyone interested in a deconstruction of this new ‘movement’ look no further… (read the whole thread btw)
GeorgeMonbiot
@GeorgeMonbiot
Against the renationalisation of public utilities
Against a 50p top rate of income tax
Against abolishing tuition fees
The #IndependentGroup looks like Conservatism minus Brexit https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/02/chris-leslie-interview-labour-have-massively-underestimated-new-centrist-party …
It's an interesting article and gives an incite into the mind of an idealist and a centrist.
How many questions and answers were exchanged, who really knows? But George Eaton is trying to discover the reasons why they left and how Chris Leslies' ideas differ from Labour under Corbyn, after all, that's kind of the whole point.
Leslie is fairly balanced, the sorts of things he talks about, Omnipresent Government controlling everything, spending balanced against taxation - okay it's way more New Labour than Momentum Labour, but wouldn't have seemed out of place under Blair, Brown or Miliband. Equally he's damming of the Tories Polices around Walfare and Housing.
Monibot either ignores most of it, or just can't see past his own ideology and spews out - Anti-Taxation, Anti-No Tuition Fees and Anti-Nationalisation. He's the no better than Fox News, he's just on the other side of the fence.
The worst part is what whilst it might galvanise Momentum and like-minded people, it just makes him look like a Marxist loon to everyone else, pushing the message further Left.
2) they are not short-termist or beholden to their electorate, like governments
They are, in many cases, beholden to the stock market. Which makes the electorate look like long term planners.
So the smear campaign propaganda has already started then?
Yup. It started when they held their press conference and went all out. Not sure why others shouldnt return the favour?
I’m not quite sure why you immediately conclude that they’re trying to deceive anyone,
Well a cursory look at their voting records would indicate their dedication to some of the causes is less than ideal. That they have got a manifesto which doesnt annoy anyone to some degree is a tad odd.
The name being used over on the Guardian comments is (drumroll)
The Blair Rich Project with a tag line Things Can Only get Bitter.
I preferred Chuka Vision.
To me...to EU
So the smear campaign propaganda has already started then? That’s a good sign that someone somewhere is worried.
Probably in the new party once the ICO starts digging https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/21/data_breach_labour_locks_down_member_databases/ . Someone's been a very naughty boy/girl and it's going to get expensive for them.
Has someone made off with the cassettes from Jezza's ZX81?!!!
I had him down as a Commadore 64 type of chap!
I preferred Chuka Vision.
To me…to EU
Brilliant.
Brilliant.
Not mine. Some wag on Twitter.
Probably in the new party once the ICO starts digging https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/21/data_breach_labour_locks_down_member_databases/ . Someone’s been a very naughty boy/girl and it’s going to get expensive for them.
seems fair enough, the leave campaign got labours members database, this just evens it up.
Leslie is fairly balanced, the sorts of things he talks about, Omnipresent Government controlling everything
Balanced? In what world is jumping from renationalising certain industries to his "how many tractors are sold, or what trains should leave Euston at what particular time of day" balanced?
Why on earth is he going on about tractors? Shows a certain ideological purity that he immediately leaps to that conclusion.
Also as for trains at a certain time of day. He might want to catch up with Grayling about the government interaction on that.
Same with his comment about tuition fees. An interesting response would have been to comment on how much is already effectively spent by the government but just punted a few years down the line.
Probably in the new party once the ICO starts digging https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/21/data_breach_labour_locks_down_member_databases/ . Someone’s been a very naughty boy/girl and it’s going to get expensive for them.
Nah,
If there's been a data breach it will be Labour who get fined by the ICO, not whoever was able to access it - it's the data controllers responsibility to secure data.
Although, on the balance of probability I suspect Labour knew the 7 would resign, or if they didn't if someone on their IT wasn't cutting their access as they were at the podium, then they're mad. Anyway, I really doubt that if the MPs who resigned waited until after they resigned to study whatever data they wanted.
If they were granted access to the data whilst members of Labour, then they've done nothing wrong.
I would suspect Labour Leadership are in a bit of a mild panic situation, they know other MPs will possibly leave shortly and staff within the Party could be equally as displeased with them - after-all we're only 3 years into the current Leadership which was preceded by 20+ years of the Blair/Brown/Miliband era, how many salary staff within Labour are 'New Labour' types? Anyway - I would guess until the storm passes they will want to keep Membership data to trusted people within the inner circle, maybe because they fear the Indie will want to contact the older, less Momentum inclined members, or maybe just to avoid a bad headline around falling membership figures.
At some point they're going to have to find some things they're actually for, rather than just knowing what they're against. Some of them have pretty closely aligned beliefs but not all, even before it went cross-party. I suspect they lack the glue to actually work together. Heidi Allen and Anna Soubry have some pretty big disagreements never mind the cross party stuff
P-Jay
Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron are all centrists
Cameron did a pretty good job of pretending to be a centrist, but no he was not.