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I reckon double figures is enough for their own thread, so tough issues first, the name? We need a flip chart and some pens to come up with that!! Next we need some factions 🙂
Will the be the Pro Remain voice? Will they get some more support? Or more importantly how many will be back at HQ come April?
Was Not Was.
Will any lib dems defect to join them? as theyve already said they wont be joining vince!
Peston reckons that theres more pressure on Sinn Fein to take up their seats now as then May would no longer have a majority
It's finally happening then!
PMQs is gonna be amusing or dull, I dunno
Can we get Phil to commentate on the state of the breakaways and their chance of getting to the line or are they just in it for the advertising and intermediate sprints?
Name: defili
Factions: From what I understand there are already several including whether to have a party or not.
Main problem they face is the same as (their predecessor party?) the Libdems. The "centrist" vote is too geographically spread so without really appealing to either left or right (or just hijacking the party for a bit) they will have difficulty gaining traction.
Time to see how they voted on parliamentary reform.
Comment of the day Mike!
The “centrist” vote is too geographically spread so without really appealing to either left or right (or just hijacking the party for a bit) they will have difficulty gaining traction.
Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron are all centrists. Collectively they represent 26 years of Government. Far from perfect of course, Economic Collapse, War and the Referendum obvious low-points, but they all treaded the middle ground and were able to set aside idealism to choose policies traditionally from each side of the divide for the benefit of the country.
I think there has never been a better time to be an independent MP. If they don't have aspirations to form a government then why do they need a 'party' as such. Why can't they just be a collective group of independent MP's trying to reflect he views of their constituents rather than a party?
I think it is a shame there are not more independent MP's in Parliament
they all treaded the middle ground and were able to set aside idealism to choose policies traditionally from each side of the divide for the benefit of the country.
To pick two examples, the Iraq war and NHS reforms were driven by ideology.
Centrelights
or
Centrelightweights
But who will be leader. Will there be a leader...
To pick two examples, the Iraq war and NHS reforms were driven by ideology.
I'm trying to use use a more nuanced tone, but I guess my "far from perfect of course" line wasn't definitive enough 😉
May and Corbyn aren't completely driven by ideology, the Indie's won't be completely free-thinking pragmatists, no one is 100% anything and certainly not perfect.
both May & Corbyn have been so remarkably inept as leaders, particularly over Brexit the really amazing thing is that more MPs havent quit their parties!
Luciana won’t retain her seat. She’s my local MP. Whilst she was excellent when I contacted her for help to resolve a problem Labour could put up a dead cat for election in my constituency and win.
Good to see Torres jumping ship as well and for very valid reasons.
Will there be a leader…
Chuka Umunna seems to be the defacto leader at the moment.
Cons and Labour are both un-electable right now, so this Independent movement really spices things up.
I'm all for it - my vote goes where to the policies I agree with, not to a party colour.
I'd love to think that this is a real move towards complete political reform in the UK - but I just can't see that happening. Not until the country/services/economy is truly on its knees at least. UK Politics proves to us time and again that even when broken, it doesn't actually require fixing..
New party is being financially supported by rich donors to the tune of £50M, all bar one; Simon Franks, remain secret.
I'm not certain that's a good way of promoting democracy.
both May & Corbyn have been so remarkably inept as leaders, particularly over Brexit the really amazing thing is that more MPs havent quit their parties!
More are coming, there's at least 2 Tories who were planning to jump today and forever reason haven't as yet.
If they can get say... 30 in the coming days / weeks, they won't be anywhere near a majority of course, but they seem pretty well aligned with the SNP, Lib Dems and Plaid - they have the numbers to be Kingmakers in Westminster.
I think a lot of these MPs already suspected that their seats were in jeopardy, so they are freer to put the interests of the country first, for once!
It’s finally happening then!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/07/new-political-party-break-mould-westminster-uk-brexit
/blockquote>Despite the underwhelming response on here - I get very excited reading things like that!
New party is being financially supported by rich donors to the tune of £50M, all bar one; Simon Franks, remain secret.
I’m not certain that’s a good way of promoting democracy.
Give them a few days at least to get themselves together, remember they had to do most of this behind closed doors. If Chuka wasn't passing notes with the words "tsetse fly" on it, I'll be a bit disappointed.
They could call it the Birthday Party and they'll be jelly, ice-cream and party blowers for all :toot:
It's political suicide int it tho coz at the next GE the people will just vote for the official lab/con candidate and they'll be out of public office.
What are we reckoning..funded by Israel? All the left fb pages are going on about this but I'm not so sure...what would be the reason?
I would have thought that Ivan Lewis would be joining soon too.
Only a few more Torys need to jump before there has to be an election. Which is ironic because if there is a sudden GE then almost all the 'Independent Party' people will lose their seats.
If it did happen an election would be a terrific excuse to delay Brexit. Maybe that delay could turn out to be indefinite. (Or as a whacky leftfeild unlikely outside chance maybe a large umber of independent MPs could stand on a "Stop Brexit and then call a new GE ticket.")
I don't see the point in being cynical about it before they've even kicked a baw.
Let them find their feet and say their piece...
Then we can laugh at them! 😆
I’m trying to use use a more nuanced tone, but I guess my “far from perfect of course” line wasn’t definitive enough 😉
You said that they were able to set aside idealism, but I think that is demonstrably untrue: Blair and Cameron both pursued hugely damaging policies because of their beliefs.
Only a few more Torys need to jump before there has to be an election.
Well not exactly. There doesn't HAVE to be an election does there?
The government is already lacking the numbers to get its legislation passed. What difference does 3, 5, 10 fewer Tory MPs really make? Still May presses on without majority support.
I am very interested in the idea that it's being backed by philanthropists etc. Even if they only win a small number of seats, if any, it'll certainly have an effect. If they win 10-20 seats, well, that could shake things up quite a lot.
Well not exactly. There doesn’t HAVE to be an election does there?
Good point.
I don’t see the point in being cynical about it before they’ve even kicked a baw.
Very much this. I still think there may be an anti-Brexit plan here that doesn't even require the Independents to form a party.
You said that they were able to set aside idealism, but I think that is demonstrably untrue: Blair and Cameron both pursued hugely damaging policies because of their beliefs.
Nah, I tied, but it's not working.
Yep, you're completely 100% right because of those actions, which you declare to be driven by ideology it's a completely proven fact that they were idealists completely devoid of independent thought at all times, in every situation.
I wonder where they'll sit on the Commons now, I guess the ex-Tories will have to sit on the opposition benches (probably for the best given how some MPs act in parliament).
Well both leaders ignored them during PMQ's. How very bold and brave of them.
Yep, you’re completely 100% right because of those actions, which you declare to be driven by ideology it’s a completely proven fact that they were idealists completely devoid of independent thought at all times, in every situation.
You seem to be under the impression that I am disagreeing with you because I have not understood your point. In fact, I am disagreeing with you because I think you are wrong, and misrepresenting my view through reductio ad absurdum reinforces my belief that your argument is not a strong one.
LOL! Told you I see them coming. (mentioned in the other thread few days ago ...)
New Labour
New new labour remainders
Tories
New Tories remainders
Guess I is not wrong.
😀
All they will achieve is splitting the vote on the left and ensure the tories stay in power. Probably their intention
All they will achieve is splitting the vote on the left and ensure the tories stay in power. Probably their intention
It works both ways all parties are split.
All they will achieve is splitting the vote on the left and ensure the tories stay in power.
Zero change from the current position then.
Or maybe they disagree with their former party lines, especially On Brexit.
Supporting Labour and Corbyn equals to supporting Brexit.
You can't deny it.
And same with Tories.
Hopefully they'll learn to stop mis-speaking when the cameras are rolling...
https://twitter.com/angelasmithmp/status/1097518807357288448
ensure the tories stay in power.
Labours indifference and utter uselessness is managing that all on it's own. They are unelectable even without this.
I still think there may be an anti-Brexit plan here that doesn’t even require the Independents to form a party.
Quite.
All they will achieve is splitting the vote on the left and ensure the tories stay in power. Probably their intention
I don't think that's the aim (see above).
but they all treaded the middle ground and were able to set aside idealism to choose policies traditionally from each side of the divide for the benefit of the country.
As ransos pointed out they all had rather strong ideologies.
Although the conflict between the different views of Blair and Brown are interesting and reflect in the mix of policies and the sometimes seeming disfunctionality of new labour with differing policies.
You also managed to skip over the reference about hijacking parties. You only need to look at the growth in those who do not feel represented by the mainstream parties to figure the problem of pandering to the centrists.
There is also the question of how "centrist" they were. Since generally there was a bias one way on the economic side and a bit the other way.
I think they need a party behind them, tbh. 11 independents will never keep their seats.
I think they need a party behind them, tbh. 11 independents will never keep their seats.
They should probably join together with the Liberal Democrats, but under new branding as the Lib Dems are considered toxic by a large proportion of the electorate.
I mean, the left of the Tory party and the right of the Labour party are basically Lib Dems anyway! All of the defectors so far would happily fit into the Lib Dem ethos: pro business but with a healthy welfare system and socially liberal.
Conexit and Labexit by Remain MPs ......
How ironic
One of the complaints from todays Tory leavers was undue influence not only by the ERG but also the DUP, if just ten more leave then that voting majority is gone and the Deal with Arlene is worthless...
I did hear someone in the office say "What about this new 3rd party" to which a couple of us said, what about the Lib-dems?
Telling that the LDs despite being a cetrist party are pretty much irrelevant to many people now...
If the "Independant Group" do coallece into a formal party it won't be free of tensions just because they're all "Centrists" doesn't mean they'll agree on everything. Some are Centre Left and others Centre Right and there will be plenty of other issues for them to fall out over.
Perhaps it's better to have a group of independant MP's free to vote as they want without a party whip, arguably they'll be more likely to represent their constituency voters than a Party politician... Discuss.
interesting times.
I think they need a party behind them, tbh. 11 independents will never keep their seats.
As I only learnt today that in by-elections etc you vote for the individual, not the party they are a member of, if their constituents like them they may well retain their seats.
I think they need a party behind them, tbh. 11 independents will never keep their seats.
They are probably not looking that far ahead.
Just listening to their statements they made a lot of sense. Obviously Brexit was central to it but they also talked about universal credit and a sense that the Tory party is just becoming increasingly right wing and intolerant, even by their usual standards, having been hijacked by far right headbangers.
Didn't another Tory MP once made a similar observation, quite a few years back now. Something about the 'Nasty Party'? I can't remember off the top of my head who that was.....? Anyone...?
As I only learnt today that in by-elections etc you vote for the individual, not the party they are a member of
tbh honest I find that a bit scary. Not just by-elections btw, general election too. It a kind of fundamental principle to our voting system.
Telling that the LDs despite being a cetrist party are pretty much irrelevant to many people now…
Indeed. There would have been a time when some if not all of this 11 would have gone to the LDs.
Just listening to their statements they made a lot of sense.
Me too - some of the most impressive speeches by politicians I've heard in a while.
So they've been working on it for a year and
due in 2022, should the current parties be deemed to be failing. Some form of political movement could be launched later this year.
Macron went from nothing to President in that time.
Too late.
They' are looking to supplant the SNP as the third party in Westminster as that gets them more "short money" and a slot at PM questions.
All they will achieve is splitting the vote on the left and ensure the tories stay in power. Probably their intention
Lol! Of course. Do you think that's Sarah Wollaston's objective too?
Labour, or rather the leadership, have made themselves unelectable. Biggest shower of ****s running the country ever and Labour are still not able to capitalise on it.
As they made their statements they had a Tory MP on Radio 4. He was quite open in saying there were plenty of others presently 'considering their positions' due to the party having been taken over by the fruitloops of the ERG and the DUP, and 'Purple Momentum' UKIP Entryists.
Given Corbyns ongoing utter hopelessness and support for Brexit, there must be plenty of labour MPs doing the same
Its going to be an interesting week...
So they love Cameron but hate Brexit. Teflon Dave
Just watched their news conference and found them refreshingly blunt and straightforward.
Interesting no effort was made by senior party figures to keep them on board. Does that mean the hard right and hard left are also effectively re - forming the two main parties?
Tory MP on Radio 4.
He's one of the targets for UKIP entryists getting MPs deselected… so he might as well tell it as it is.
Does that mean the hard right and hard left are also effectively re – forming the two main parties?
They already have. 'Centrist' is now used as a term of abuse in both parties. To the total despair of a huge chunk of the electorate.
The loonies have well and truly taken over the asylum on both sides
11 independents and 10 DUP... Maybe they could have a billion bribe to set up a party properly... 🙂
‘Centrist’ is now used as a term of abuse in both parties. To the total despair of a huge chunk of the electorate
If a huge chunk of the electorate were despairing of the lack of a centrist option, how does that explain the position of the Liberal Democrats? I actually think this independent thing is a good thing. I don't for a second think they'll be very successful when it comes to an election, but at the very least it will give pause for thought on our political and electoral system, and we may see something change as a result of it.
Supporting Labour and Corbyn equals to supporting Brexit.
Yes, the 2017 manifesto they campaigned on did make that commitment.
If a huge chunk of the electorate were despairing of the lack of a centrist option, how does that explain the position of the Liberal Democrats?
"Yes but tuition fees."
Plenty of people will never vote Labour because of Iraq. Plenty others will never vote Tory because Thatcher. If brexit has taught us anything it's that far far too many people are stuck in the past. A rebranding is the only way we'll ever break this national inertia we're plagued by.
Let's not forget Jeremy Thorpe.
Rebranding is a bit of a shallow aim though. I think electoral/ constitutional reform is the only way past the national inertia.
Realistically they are a single issue grouping (although the labour defectors have tried to bring up other issues to attack Corbyn) so as after March 29, they will either return to the respective folds, or lose at the next election.
Having just watched the Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen news conference and as someone who'd never vote Tory, I was very impressed.
I've always hated the Party before Country approach of party politics and have been rather disappointed by Jeremy Corbin doing nothing beyond insisting that we need a general election (rather than helping sort the mess out).
It's a lot to hope that the Independent Group will succeed (and even less likely that if they did they'd not justbecome another "Party First" political party), I remember the SDP, but I found the talk of collaborating and putting the electorate and Country first rather refreshing.
I think thats the whole point, and why they've not said they're a party. It looks like a genuine attempt to do something more substantial than 're-brand
If Brexit has shown us anything, once and for all, its that our political system is totally and utterly unfit for purpose in the 21st Century.
I really really hope this is the beginning of the end for our archaic FPTP two party system
With my cynics hat on the reason they are casting themselves as a “political movement” rather than a “political
Party” is because it gives them a convenient get out on policy.
The platitudes / hope / optimism we heard at today’s press conference is all well and good but tells us nothing about their values, approach or intentions - it’s just hot air.
What will likely happen is they will find the very same divisions as they try to nail down their positions on important things and will probably have very little impact in the interim. Most voters vote party-first so without the party machine behind them they are almost certain to be voted out on to their derrieres at the next time election - there’s a chance Alexander and Wollaston may avoid that on the basis they have good local support.
so without the party machine behind them they are almost certain to be voted out on to their derrieres at the next time election
It's not doing the usual thing and putting the Party and their own political futures first and doing what they believe to be right (rather than expedient) that I find refreshing; they may well achieve nothing, but good on them for trying!
and why they’ve not said they’re a party
Keep up at the back. Chuka has already said he wants a party by the end of the year.
Its not clear the others want to join the Chuka appreciation society though.
I really really hope this is the beginning of the end for our archaic FPTP two party system
A cursory look at their records should make you dubious about their devotion to reforming the system and thats without looking at the job history of one of them.
I suspect they will be in favour of it temporarily though.
Well, if May doesn't call an election now, she's missing a big opportunity.
The only question is what sort of opportunity that would be... 🙂
IF they do become a Party what colour are they going to chose? Most of the good ones (and a shit one, UKIP) are taken.
Never underestimate the power of a name. I think the negative use of the the term 'Liberal' over recent years to describe people who might argue for a fairer society has meant that many won't even consider a vote for a party with Liberal on the ballet paper. Likewise the Greens. Toxic to a huge proportion of the population, even if their policies might make sense to most of those people. Social Democrats? Sounds a bit communist to me! It is why Labour (working people), and Conservatives (sensible, thinking people), will continue to get votes from the masses.
So what does the new party call itself then?
Ideas on a postcard, please.
Name is a tough one, an acronym could be better
Might need to be checked by more than one person...
I like Non Aligned Independants- well done OP