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Just thought I'd extract this from the Patagonia thread.....
I think most of us are aware of the origins of the word Woke, and what it actually means. But I think it's fair to say in recent years it's developed into something else, a 2nd iteration, when used as an accusation or slur. I don't think it's being used in it's original literal sense in that context - it's evolved into a more complicated meaning. In the most basic of ways I guess it is used in the same way some of us use being a 'gammon' as a slur.
I'd probably be accused of being woke - I'm vaguely left of centre politically, believe in the welfare state, worry about 'the boats' for the wrong reasons (people dying in the channel is really bad, rather than worrying about brown people coming in and ruining our nation), am concerned about climate change and am vegan for animal rights and environmental reasons. Oh, and I ride a bike sometimes.
But what is the accusation/slur exactly? Maybe at the bottom, grunt, end of the food chain it's just a bad word. But what about for the more intelligent of the tory/reform or republican voter (if that's not an oxymoron)? What is it that makes them angry with people like me? To their minds, is it that I'm out of touch of the real problems facing real people ? Is it that I am concerned about stuff that doesn't exist or not important as far as they are concerned. Does woke mean something different in the UK to the US?
Finally, anyone brave enough to admit they use it as an accusation and a negative description? If so, what does it mean to you when you say it?
I was once described as a “woke, leftie, hand wringing, bed wetting, libtard, snowflake”
I replied with “thanks for noticing” which stopped them in their tracks.
My BiL often blames the ills of the world on The Woke Left. He still hasn’t explained who he means by that.
I tend to align with Kathy Burke on what it means to be Woke.
You’ll have to Google it, its a bit sweary
There's more...
Haha came here to post the Bill Burr clips but beaten to it twice! I watched Live at Red Rocks show that the top clip is from today, absolutely quality.
Not something I think too much about. I'd be a bit bemused being called woke. I do find the whole left vs right confrontation to be a bit ott, especially when the vast majority are somewhere in the middle and just getting by the best they can.
But the more we talk openly about our different views the better IMO.
I try not to use it, and certainly not as a pejorative term, mostly because it doesn't do a good enough job of describing what I view as authoritarian shitbags trying to control people for their own means.
Who are very different to those genuinely trying to make the world a nicer, more equitable and fairer place in good faith.
But the origins of the term have been forever corrupted, there's no pulling back from that now.
I'm a beardy vegetarian cyclist but when I hear the word woke I take it as having negative connotations and would never describe myself as being woke. In my mind it is pretty much synonymous with snowflake (I know it doesn't mean the same thing but the venn diagram of people who are woke and people who are snowflakes is pretty much one circle)
Very much posh Guardian readers rather than proper lefties if that makes sense, people who are looking for things to be offended by and at the same time see everything as someone else's responsibility to fix, usually the government/taxpayer
Anyway, that's my view on it
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m001jc1l?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile
This is quite a good delve into its origins.
Happy to be called woke, or a snowflake. To be honest name calling normally means the other side has lost.
Listening to Tory hierarchy bandy the phrase around is interesting, they have really lost the argument in recent years and need to Stoke culture wars to stay relevant...
To be honest name calling normally means the other side has lost.
The same could be said when 'gammons' is deployed. ?
But again, they're also authoritarian shitbags who want to control people for their own means.
My BiL often blames the ills of the world on The Woke Left. He still hasn’t explained who he means by that.
Anyone who doesn’t vote for the Reform Party, or the Conservatives.
My understanding of Woke boils down to basically being nice to everyone, caring about people and the environment. I would also say that, by definition Jesus Christ, Buddha and most religious leaders are ‘Woke’, which does rather highlight the blatant hypocrisy of the average Republican in America, who make a point of saying what great Christians they are, how much they give to the Church, while at the same time intending to destroy the American welfare system, the protections given to the environment, even removing the ability for Americans to obtain free weather forecasts by gutting NOAA.
Empathy as ideology.
My understanding of Woke boils down to basically being nice to everyone, caring about people and the environment. I would also say that, by definition Jesus Christ, Buddha and most religious leaders are ‘Woke’, which does rather highlight the blatant hypocrisy of the average Republican in America
Which is why I don't think that's what they think the word means. And it's their understanding of what they are calling out that interests me.
But the more we talk openly about our different views the better IMO.
I don't think my motivations for promoting this debate are quite as pure as yours....I think mine might be to better understand the 'enemy"!
Follow his link, then decide if you want to use Woke as in insult :
Woke is an easy single syllable word for dumb ****s to throw around, if I ever got called “woke” I’d wear it as a badge of pride/honour.
It doesn’t mean anything in particular. But having witnessed the “pot calling the kettle black” equals racism nonsense on here I’m beginning to understand why so many find it infuriating.
And I like to think that I’m pretty woke myself.
Everyone needs to take their foot off the hate pedal and step away from social media
I think we are beyond that. 'Woke' looks like it is going to be the main attack word used by Vance and Trump against Harris. It was used extensively by Farage and the tory leadership in the recent UK election. But what (in their heads) is it shorthand for?
Fair, I struggle with the comparisons to the US, they're in a much deeper and darker hole in terms of race relations. I'd rather face the Taliban with a spoon than be either a cop or a person of colour in that country.
A mutual culture of fear sustained by abhorrent acts and cynical fear mongering is a hellish downward spiral.
Oh, Hang on. Reform is a thing isn't it? Cancel my last. Shit.
The internet in general is a dangerous place for dysfunctional/unhappy people, that chances of people doing as you suggest is slim to none sadly.
What about just dysfunctional people that are otherwise kinda, ok? Asking for a friend...
I honestly think that a lot of folk who use it as an insult see it as just that, an insult. They don’t have a clue what they’re actually trying to articulate. It’s a last resort for when they’ve run out of reasonable debate. It’s like calling somebody decent or nice as a way of attempting to abuse them. It doesn’t really work and is amusing.
Gammon is a bit different in my opinion. When I hear it I just think of the Idles song GREAT. Like a musical description of what gammon means. A bit easier to pin down than woke, at least for me.
Woke is an easy single syllable word for dumb **** to throw around,
I think when people use 'woke' pejoratively it would be interesting to ask what they would have said instead to make the same point in 2019.
Its quite curious as an insult because I don't really know what the insult is supposed to be and I'm not sure if people who present themselves as 'anti-woke' are particularly clear on what exactly it is that they are against.
I wonder if the mystery is what drives its - is it anger at others who are somehow colluding with their use of coded language - is it not knowing what 'woke' means that makes people feel they need to be anti-woke?
I mean - it really just means 'awake', its origins in Green Book era America relate to being awake to, aware of, the threat in a situation. 'Woke' was a code word - a way of signalling that awareness with people who face that threat without compounding it by making the discussion of the situation apparent to the to people who pose the threat.
Woke = middle class hypocritical virtue signaller.
A bit easier to pin down than woke, at least for me.
It is for me too. But I wonder if that's because I'm the user of the phase. I wonder if you asked a typical gammon what it was about them that made them a gammon if they would be able to describe it.
Woke = middle class hypocritical virtue signaller.
oh, good. Now we're getting somewhere.
Could you explain what you mean by hypocritical?
And an example of virtual signalling that you find so annoying it's worth an insult?
Wasn't woke originally just when there was some weird request from some group/fanbase/etc, like the Danish films being criticised for not having enough diversity in them rather than being historically accurate for the time the film was based around, nowadays it's money making to be anti-woke, so it's now being thrown at everything, like disney fairytale movies that are based on fantasy being thrown into the woke argument and so on.
I just don't think you can define it now, it's just a way for the controversial online personas to make their money off the gullible.
My BiL often blames the ills of the world on The Woke Left. He still hasn’t explained who he means by that.
But i fort it woz all uropes fawt
Sorry Kryton, you’re gonna have to draw it with crayons for me,
Woke is a political slang adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) originally meaning alertness to racial prejudice and discrimination. Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as racial injustice, sexism, and denial of LGBT rights.
For me the word awareness is important here. In the video I posted, there's a now proven case of a racially incentivised murder and IMHO intimidation prior to the murder - racial injustice buried on page 8 none the less of the BBC website - the taking of an innocent life by a black woman by the very people she called for her own protections.
So this.... middle class hypocritical virtue signaller ... language attempts to insult the likes of me who are aware of racial - and other - sensitivities and then rather revert to prior decades/centuries of denial, ignorance and intolerance. Right there you have a poster that'd sneer at this very text and rather live in ignorance of equality. Becuase I'm "aware" (aka woke) the potential racial sensitivity within the context that pot kettle black was used the other day does that really make it "...nonsense..." as Kramer suggests? Kramer isn't as woke as he thinks, because he has in one sentence denied the sensitivity exists. I'd love to know if he's made any other attempt outside of STW to actually learn about it before he denoted it as "nonsense".
Is being aware of society's sensitivities, learning and adjusting to appease one another really such a bad thing, that the very thought of it becomes derogatory?
Convert,
I'm just telling you what woke means as requested in the op.
You surely know what Hypocritical and virtue signalling mean.
#fishingforafightaboutnothing
edit : never mind, wrong end of the short stick
But what (in their heads) is it shorthand for?
IMO the closest equivalent, alluded to above, is "hand-wringing do-gooder". I always thought it was quite funny that "do-gooder" is used as an insult by the right.
Could you explain what you mean by hypocritical?
IMO again, this tends to equate to:
Rich and concerned about inequality: champagne socialism.
Poor and concerned about inequality: politics of envy.
Either way, you're a hypocrite
I find this is one of the better explanations. Thoughtful and goes right back to the root of it.
https://pod.link/1624704966/episode/0b0e2c363a94280fe0ae576bbefbc526
#fishingforafightaboutnothing
Genuinely no.
I just don't know what hypocritical and virtue signalling mean in your context.
So for example, would you see me being vegan as virtue signalling?
Wasn’t woke originally just when there was some weird request from some group/fanbase/etc,
As an insult, perhaps. As a term meaning "staying alive to racial injustice", it has been in use in black music at least since Leadbelly in the 1930s.
That said, I didn't come across it until that amazing Childish Gambino song in 2016:
Is being aware of society’s sensitivities, learning and adjusting to appease one another really such a bad thing, that the very thought of it becomes derogatory?
In essence nope, but sadly some with audience and clout have co-opted it and here we are.
Like I said earlier, it's not my choice of descriptor when I think someone is an authoritarian and hiding behind those who are woke and acting in good faith. Same is to be said for those who'd be described as gammons.
As a pejorative it lacks context and accuracy.
Woke = middle class
The first part is simply said to provoke an emotional reaction, because it works. We as a society are hung up on class, although it is said in some circles that identity politics is the preserve of the middle classes as they may have the luxury of being able to give it thought, time and investment.
hypocritical virtue signaller.
This for some may be accurate, but as you rightly point out, you'd need to evidence it in some way. I often think this part is moot, the internet, specifically social media is all about signalling. Life through a lens/tweet etc.
I don't think I've ever seen a person who's accused of being "woke" ever describe themselves as "woke".
The word went from being self used by African Americans as described in an earlier post, to being used as an insult by the right to describe anyone they don't like
Convert, I've never called anyone woke in my life, I'm just telling you the meaning.
If you are vegan and have an obsession with buying leather jackets, it's likely you are perceived as a hypocrite and potentially a virtue signaller. If you don't have an obsession with leather then the insult 'woke' still drags you into the pot belittling your efforts. It upsets a whole lot of people by simple negative word mirroring.
It upsets a whole lot of people by simple negative word mirroring.
And this is the point I think. It's exactly why it's been co-opted. It's all a bit daft though, like being back at school watching fully grown adults call each other odd little pet names in a hope of provoking a reaction.
It's not just the politics that's divided and antagonistic; so is the language.
I'm pretty sure that Woke doesn't mean what Kryton thinks - at least not to the "mouthbreathing, knuckle-dragging neo-fascists" (which I believe is the antonym for "libtard" in modern politics ? - or is there a snappier one?)
Ask 20 people to define woke and you'll get 20 different answers.
As used by the right today they generally mean something along the lines of political correctness gone too far, being hyper sensitive to any perceived injustice, seeing all human interactions as a power struggle between oppressor and oppressed, or even gay race communism (not my words!)
Personally I think it's a pretty useless term, it's too broad, it means different things to different people and insults in general are unproductive.
If it would help the OP understand I could elaborate with some examples of "wokeness" but I have a feeling people would get mad and the thread would be derailed.
To be honest name calling normally means the other side has lost.
The same could be said when ‘gammons’ is deployed. ?
It does in my view, certainly loses any moral authority
Kryton has the original definition/origin as I've always understood it. I don't know if I'm woken but it strike me as being an ok thing to be , as opposed to being a whining racist.
I dont believe that in a Venn diagram woken and snowflake overlap much at all. Gammon and snowflake is a much better match
Convert, I’ve never called anyone woke in my life, I’m just telling you the meaning.
you're conveying a meaning. I don't think theres a consensus on the meaning.
The way its used pejoratively makes it very difficult to understand what the people using it actually mean
Far right types use it as a slur, so I take it as being a good thing if I'm called it on X. Not that I go on X much.
Lovely day on the North Downs a few years ago I stop riding up a hill to have a break and 2 blokes stop for a chat.
All fine and dandy then one of them comes out with, "I blame the mess the country is in on wokeness."
Yeah, sure, so the country is in a mess because there are people (the "woke") that simply try to go through their lives without being shitty to other people?
I seem to attract blokes like this sometimes, I think it's due to being mid 50's, white and shaven headed. They see me as "one of them." 🙂
Yeah, sure, so the country is in a mess because there are people (the “woke”) that simply try to go through their lives without being shitty to other people?
*sigh*, sadly, that’s the way I see the term being abused and used as a slur, against ‘…people (the “woke”) that simply try to go through their lives without being shitty to other people’.
I would happily admit to being accused of being ‘woke’, I’ve spent my life doing my best not to be an asshole to other people, especially people who work in the service and retail industries, and getting a smile in return seems to indicate my ‘wokeness’ is appreciated.
I would happily admit to being accused of being ‘woke’, I’ve spent my life doing my best not to be an asshole to other people, especially people who work in the service and retail industries, and getting a smile in return seems to indicate my ‘wokeness’ is appreciated.
100% this ^
Woke means aware or awake to what is going on. It made American dictionaries in the 90s and I’ve found a reference to it from the early 70s
In 1971, the phrase was used in a play by American playwright Barry Beckham titled Garvey Lives!, in which he wrote: “I been sleeping all my life. And now that Mr Garvey done woke me up, I’m gon’ stay woke. And I’m gon’ help him wake up other black folk.”
I have a feeling though that it goes bad to the US civil rights movement of the in the 60s or earlier.
I have a feeling though that it goes bad to the US civil rights movement of the in the 60s or earlier
Yes, Leadbelly was recorded using the word in the 30s. In the same, Garvey-inspired sense of , "stay woke, (and try not to get yourself lynched by any racists)".
I seem to attract blokes like this sometimes, I think it’s due to being mid 50’s, white and shaven headed. They see me as “one of them.” 🙂
May I suggest some woke footwear, Brightly coloured socks which might or may not allude to the lgtqba flag paired with barefoot/minimal shoes. You basically still look like a normal regular bloke until they look down at your feet which say "yeah I'm woke what ya gonna do about it?”
Before I gave up Twitter/X I spent a ridiculous amount of time arguing with people about what woke meant and telling idiots like Andrew RT Davies that he had appropriated and was repurposing the word as part of his culture wars.
Since leaving Twitter I seldom hear the word used as a slur and had assumed the whole thing had run its course… seeing it being misused again on a thread here I am thinking that maybe I was wrong. Reinforces how good it is to not be on X.
I guess the original meaning of the word is somewhat lost, that it is now a blunt insult that has or will soon lose its edge and everyone can move on. Ultimately it will fail as an insult because those that use the term pejoratively are, for the most part, vindictive half wits that nobody really listens to.
These days I think the meaning of 'woke' is mainly in the users head when they label someone or something with it.
There's little point in delving into where they appropriated the term from, or who and how the term has been sold to them.
My interpretation is that generally it's become a concise way to sneer at the presumed empathetic or altruistic instincts of other people, I think users like to ascribe everything from plain old naivety to some sort of inverse fascism as a way to win imaginary argument points... Fair enough.
It is perhaps worth examining the implied antithesis of 'woke' or what it means to be 'anti-woke' as that is sort of what users of the term are aligning themselves to. i.e. they are essentially saying they lack empathy or altruistic instincts... In short calling people 'woke' is a tacit admission that you're a bit of a bastard yourself.
As for slinging about the term 'Gammon' yeah I've stopped doing that, it's not helpful. Angry bigots just don't like the fact that there's an evocative and concise term for them and it only serves to escalate the disagreements. They can call me woke if they like, it's hardly an insult when you think about it and reveals more about the user of the term than their targets...
The same could be said when ‘gammons’ is deployed. ?
Woke == being mindful that some people are different from ourselves.
Gammon == being angry that some people are different from ourselves.
It is well documented what Woke means. It is just about appreciating that people are different and have different lives and then caring about and possibly taking action on what issues that causes for them
Or a more soppy version woke = love, anti-woke = hate.
It is perhaps worth examining the implied antithesis of ‘woke‘ or what it means to be ‘anti-woke‘ as that is sort of what users of the term are aligning themselves to. i.e. they are essentially saying they lack empathy or altruistic instincts… In short calling people ‘woke‘ is a tacit admission that you’re a bit of a bastard yourself.
In the link I posted a few hours ago, Steve Albini said much the same. In fewer, ruder, words, which is why you have to read the link and I can't quote it.
I think we all know the original meaning of the word. I think what the OP is asking is what the hell do people using it as an insult think it means. I think the answer is that they don’t actually know. At a basic level it clearly isn’t an insult so just marks people out that use it as such as massive dickheads
As an insult, it's just an extension of virtue signalling. Performative activism pops up on the wiki description,
Righteous, pretentious, hypocritical, moral superiority, chattering classes, that type of thing.
I'm surprised so many of the wokerati weren't in the know (jokes) or is the denial due to the tight fitting cap (more jokes)
Isn’t it a bit like “Marxist”? A word used as an insult in some general sense by people without the remotest clue what it means or where it came from. “Keir Starmer is a Marxist lawyer”. Eh?
I think what the OP is asking is what the hell do people using it as an insult think it means. I think the answer is that they don’t actually know.
Some do know what it means but think caring about others is a bad thing and you are somehow worse than them because you care about others.
But like political correctness was used when that was thing.
If someone uses the word woke I assume they are probably a bit racist
Yep, or basically someone I don't want my woke self interacting with.
To my mind the folks who use woke pejoratively were the same folks who accused others of being "Too PC" or said things like "Its political correctness gone mad" a few years back. PC has fallen out of favour and been replaced by woke.
There are folks to the right of the political spectrum who think that inclusive speech (woke) is part of a conspiracy theory to undermine Judeo-Christian belief structures of the West - an intolerance of (to their minds) the stating of beliefs that they think are self-evidently true, things like; The west should dominate the cultural and political spheres, that Classical Greece and Rome are the self evidently the high points of human existence, that colonialism was a good thing that bought prosperity to otherwise backwards countries etc etc. Those folks see 'woke' on a continuum of inclusivity politics that started with the civil rights and feminist movements and they think is damaging and pointless.
disappointed at there being no references to the Manchester riot thread yet as far as I can see
I would happily admit to being accused of being ‘woke’, I’ve spent my life doing my best not to be an asshole to other people, especially people who work in the service and retail industries, and getting a smile in return seems to indicate my ‘wokeness’ is appreciated.
I'm not sure thats being woke, thats just being a decent human being.
Nick - that makes most sense of all responses so far, thanks.
And I can sort of see the 'mission creep' of the term too with that description. The divide is where part of the community which sees PCness (and therefore wokeness) as a positive and the other end of the spectrum which believes it's pandering to the needs of 'the others' they have little time or respect for.
The I guess the hypocrisy or virtue signalling being an additional layer of accusations added to woke as a slur reserved for middle class white people who display woke values because you look just like the right winger so having these values is being disloyal. Or something.
Yes, the right wing version of the same thing it's sometimes called "patriotic correctness" the idea that if you're on the right wing of the political spectrum, it’s an un-nuanced, uncompromising defence of nationalism, one view of history and cherry-picked ideals. Central to it is the belief that nothing can’t be fixed by more flag shagging enforced by public shaming, boycotts and policies to cut out foreign or 'lefty' influences.
It's part of the reason the two side of the political debate are just relentlessly moving further and further away from each other as the white patriarchal Christian population realises that it's hold of power for the last 300-400 years is inexorably slipping away
Yes, the right wing version of the same thing it’s sometimes called “patriotic correctness” the idea that if you’re on the right wing of the political spectrum, it’s an un-nuanced, uncompromising defence of nationalism, one view of history and cherry-picked ideals. Central to it is the belief that nothing can’t be fixed by more flag shagging enforced by public shaming, boycotts and policies to cut out foreign or ‘lefty’ influences.
It might well be that people who are 'Anti-Woke' are simply just 'Anti-Nuance'.
Deep down theres a wish for things to be simple - problems to be easy to define, blame to be easy to apportion, solutions to be easy to offer
in May 2023, Trump said: “They're dying, Russians and Ukrainians. I want them to stop dying. And I'll have that done — I'll have that done in 24 hours.”
What spoils everything is it becoming apparent that things aren't that simple after you've been promised that they are - and the people who are to blame for that seemingly are the people who just point that out. The woke in everything, just like the devil, just seems to be in the details.
It might well be that people who are ‘Anti-Woke’ are simply just ‘Anti-Nuance’.
Deep down theres a wish for things to be simple – problems to be easy to define, blame to be easy to apportion, solutions to be easy to offer
This is also good. My FiL who I discussed before is the sort person that would use woke as an accusation. A Fareham resident who proudly voted Braveman but since the election has declared his new love of Farage and is looking forward to where he is able to take the country in the next 5 years...whatever that means.
I had a conversation with him recently where he said he sees the world as very black and white - not the colour of skin but things are right or wrong; good or bad. I genuinely mistook what he was saying and thought he was admitting a failure. But he didn't see it as that, this is a character trait he wears with honour. It's something he is proud of.
There are folks to the right of the political spectrum who think
That's somewhat optimistic.
I’m not sure thats being woke, thats just being a decent human being.
What's the difference?
Fueled as nailed what most people who use the word mean, I think.
A Fareham resident who proudly voted Braveman but since the election has declared his new love of Farage and is looking forward to where he is able to take the country in the next 5 years…whatever that means.
...But he didn’t see it as that, this is a character trait he wears with honour. It’s something he is proud of.
Though both sides have lunatic fringes the RW type saying people are 'woke' or wanting 'strong leaders' often seems to be people not able to cope with change, attached to an identity they haven't earned and can't defend any other way, and/or too closed-minded to learn anything new. They say they feel threatened yet it's not a rational threat. Talk of 'loss of culture' etc.. how, or what culture? They're getting 'how it was in 1955' mixed up with culture? 'The only constant is change'.
Nationalism is this idea that the country you were born in is great.. What, because you happened to be born there and it's what you know? Just makes no sense.
tbh I feel a bit sorry for folk who can't think or reason and just have fall back on a belief instead. You'll not get any further in life if you're mentally unable to adapt. We don't rely on physicality to survive in our society now so we evolve mentally and socially. Thinking is what makes humanity great and inspiring. And from what I've seen the most inspiring thinkers seem to be a fairly woke lot..
Woke is thinking 50p Lee is a dickhead. Which he is. Therefore i am woke.
50p Lee is a dickhead.
I'm so old I can remember when 50p Lee was 30p Lee.
50p Lee sounds positively decadent - the sort of guy who'd dine in restaurants that don't use £ signs.
0.5 Lee I guess
Oh goddamit. Yes 30p Lee then. He's still a dickhead regardless of the compound interest i seem to have added.
His latest comment on the police "dancing round rainbows" is a prime example of dumb anti-woke rhetoric