[Closed] The law is the law and must not be broken

A child who fails to attended school regularly results in parents getting a fine. Oh and they also went on holiday.

...and I do 12 hour shifts, nights and days, and work through Christmas, Easter and so on.

Common sense would suggest not going on holiday when it's likely to get you a fine.

Common sense would dictate taking the hit and just paying the £360.

But the holiday was booked and paid for before the law was changed.

schools arent fined because they close because of poor weather, broken heating, or staff strikes etc.

Not a very level playground is it.

[quote=project ]
Not a very level playground is it.
That helps the water run off, avoiding the formation of icy puddles that might cause the school to be closed - and we wouldn't want that!

Not a very level playground is it.

Next you'll be saying they also moved the goalposts.

project - Member

schools arent fined because they close because of poor weather, broken heating, or staff strikes etc.

Not really the same.

TBH you can see both sides- if things aren't going right, just carrying on doing the same thing often isn't a good approach. So taking a break, quick holiday to reset things, then trying again could be more effective. So maybe, they've been fined for doing the best thing for their kid, when the law would have seen them remain in a rut.

Next there will be law against overweight people. 🙄

I remember a time in the early 70s when a self proclaim sultan in the far east decreed that no man should have shoulder length. My youngest uncle who was influenced by Easy Rider movie, got stopped by the police with long hair. He decked the police. 😆 My father had to bail him out later.

[quote=chewkw ]Next there will be law against overweight people. Do you think it was fatties walking on the playground that made it uneven?

Next there will be law against overweight people.

isnt there one already where fat people are forced to work, have their benefits taken off them,

project do you spend all your time searching the internet for "news stories" for you to hand-wringingly post up on here and moan about?

common[b] sence[/b]

Good point. After all, it's not like kids learn anything useful at school - like spelling or anything.

Apparently there was no appeal process once the fine was dished out even if the powers that be were sympathetic.

common sence and discretion would have been better,and cheaper,for all.

+1

project do you spend all your time searching the internet for "news stories" for you to hand-wringingly post up on here and moan about?

Its called debate on modern moral and socialistic issues,come the revolution all those daft jobsworth rules would be abolished along with people who dont question anything around them..

Next you'll be saying they also moved the goalposts

It's mostly swings 'n' roundabouts.

scotroutes - Member

chewkw » Next there will be law against overweight people.

Do you think it was fatties walking on the playground that made it uneven?

That depends if the laws allow overweight people to live.

project - Member
isnt there one already where fat people are forced to work, have their benefits taken off them,

Forcing overweight people to work is one thing but I bet in future they will not allow to eat more than they like.

One of our relatives has decided to get married on a Thursday, how will that pan out as the kids are invited? Is that deemed acceptable for a day off?

Just get them to cough a bit at school on Wednesday, with the groundwork laid, ring up and say they have Smallpox on the Thursday morning.

[b]It's[/b] called debate on modern moral and socialistic issues,[b]space here[/b]come the

What you learn at school is not the be-all/end-all of education, Whilst growing up i learned far more working with my father out at sea on his fishing boat or in his engineering workshops or the forestry work, i used to take weeks off school to help him out and to be honest the entire school process was a waste of my time - they weren't going to let me sit my o-grades/highers as my attendance was so poor but i did and i passed 7 O'grades with the 2 poorest grades being a B, the next year i got 4A's and 2B's on my Highers despite going to school perhaps two days per week - personally if i had kids t'day i'd do whatever the **** i wanted to do with them.

We are not owned by the state as subjects despite what maritime law or the birth certificate stands for.

Apparently there was no appeal process once the fine was dished out even if the powers that be were sympathetic.

Well it is a conditional offer of fixed penalty (like a speeding ticket) so there is no "appeal" as such but if you don't comply with the conditional offer you go to court. If you are then dissatisfied with the magistrates response you can go to the appeal court. So not really true to say "there is no appeal process".

One of our relatives has decided to get married on a Thursday, how will that pan out as the kids are invited? Is that deemed acceptable for a day off?

I believe the tolerance (or robustness of enforcement action) is dependent on the normal attendance patterns of the child(ren); and the general attitude/approach of the parents.

I send my children to private schools which have longer holidays so I can take my family holidays when it's still cheaper and I don't have to share the beaches or the slopes with riff raff - isn't that what you all do? 🙂

We have an au pair for holidays. I send my kids on holiday with the wife, so the au pair and I have more time together

personally if i had kids t'day i'd do whatever the **** i wanted to do with them.

We are not owned by the state as subjects despite what maritime law or the birth certificate stands for.

somafunk - Member

We are not owned by the state as subjects despite what maritime law or the birth certificate stands for.

But as people slowly relinquish their responsibility to look after themselves to rely heavily on the state, then you will witness zombie maggots ruling over us. Unfortunately, we will soon be assimilated into the collective zombie maggots in future. Resistance is futile ... if you let them walk all over you.

poly - Member

personally if i had kids t'day i'd do whatever the **** i wanted to do with them.

And you could choose to "home school" your children (then can still sit exams etc). But it is disruptive for everyone else when part time pupils do appear so its not unreasonable that the state has an all-or-nothing approach...

Errrmm ... do you really need to sit for exam or be schooled to survive in the modern world? Isn't schooling the process of preparing people to slave, I mean work, for others?

I mean there is something called Internet and I am sure in future school will be obsolete like many things else. Self-taught/learned is the way forward ...

There is more to this than is being reported. I work in Secondary Education with responsibility for overseeing attendance and welfare issues (albeit in Scotland) and the key phrase in the news report is "They admitted failing to ensure their children attended school [b]regularly[/b]".

To me this indicates that there has been a [b]pattern[/b] of poor attendance, and this case is not simply about a one-off family holiday.

Frequent absences of one or two days are far more damaging to child's education than a two-week break. Many parents are too permissive about allowing their children to be off "ill", in some cases it averages over 2 days per week, and the state has to jump through a number of hoops to persuade them that they are responsible for remedying the situation. The ultimate sanction is that the children are taken into care, and really, who wants that?

To me this indicates that there has been a pattern of poor attendance, and this case is not simply about a one-off family holiday.

Exactly it was typically only briefly mentioned by the media so they could concentrate on the hype they wanted to create to sell. Why can't people see through the media?

Drac - Moderator
Why can't people see through the media?

Errmmm ... I don't trust media as they are all run by zombie maggots.

There is more to this than is being reported. I work in Secondary Education with responsibility for overseeing attendance and welfare issues (albeit in Scotland) and the key phrase in the news report is "They admitted failing to ensure their children attended school regularly".

To me this indicates that there has been a pattern of poor attendance, and this case is not simply about a one-off family holiday.

I spotted that aswell...
what a great example to set your kids - rewarding poor attendance with a week in Greece during term time!
He came across as a right tw*t in the report aswell (agree media twists things though)

My wife is a secondary school teacher, and regularly has to deal with parents like him, who think the world owes them a favor, and they know better than everyone else..

and as for you lot who reckon you learned more down 'pit with your Dad than you ever learned in school, do you really think that is relevant?

The article does say of the fella that "He told magistrates he decided to take a family holiday because of problems with his eldest daughter, whose behaviour and school attendance had deteriorated."

Which could be interpreted as rewarding her for poor attendance and behaviour, or as a genuine attempt to turn things around. However, if it was the latter, with the support of the school and associated agencies, then they'd never have ended up in court. Parents not taking responsibility in my book.

to be honest the entire school process was a waste of [s]my[/s] their time

FTFY 🙂

poly - lets agree to disagree on this one, you go and sit over there, preferably out of sight and earshot........and i'll get on my bike and bugger-off into the distance.

And my dad taught me many important things, unlike school. A few examples for you : why i had to hold my breath whilst cleaning out the bilge pump in a force 8, 10 miles west of Jura and how to safely operate the chainsaw i got for my 12th birthday, i doubt school would have been much use for that.

As far as i know he never lived under bridges, he'd have ripped the ****ing head from the troll (as his arms are larger than my thighs) and made it into a piece for his lunch.

Sorted!....next?.

Errmmm ... I don't trust media as they are all run by zombie maggots.

Damn you Zombie Maggots, damn you all to hell.

freeagent - Member
what a great example to set your kids - rewarding poor attendance with a week in Greece during term time!

You cannot expect everyone to be perfect otherwise everyone will want to grow up to become a manager, so who are going to do the dirty work eh?

Some (majority) got to slave at the low end of the job and only a few will make it to become a proper manager.

Drac - Moderator

Errmmm ... I don't trust media as they are all run by zombie maggots.

Damn you Zombie Maggots, damn you all to hell.

There, there, you are slowly being assimilated ... 😆

Neither maritime law nor the birth certificate state or stand for the citizen being owned by the state. The parent in this story must have a significant history of failing to secure his child's education either within the school system or by homeschooling. Hard to see even on his self justification that a jolly in the Med to suit his personal convenience was the solution to the problem. So the story is ****less parent fined for child neglect nowt wrong with that.

To me this indicates that there has been a pattern of poor attendance, and this case is not simply about a one-off family holiday.

and to me, it indicates the school has a problem with the child as she didnt want to go to school, probably due to crap lessons, bullying or wanted a better education than they where providing, there are probably more sides to this story than a rubiks cube

Just as a flip side to this my son turned 14 this week. Last year he played cricket at school, district and county level, played footy for the school team who got to english schools semis and won the lancashire cup, captained badders team who are in their regional finals tomorrow.
Whilst I think sport is very important, he missed a ton of school days last year, and the school were more than happy to let him have representative time off. Myself and missus Lad are a little concerned and will be cutting the jollies down for him this year.

In a world where millions of children are denied a proper education, to have the opportunity to go to school and chose not to, or to chose that for your children, is pretty shameful in my opinion. The odd day here or there or a holiday as an exception is one thing, but the word regular does suggest this is something else entirely.

And my dad taught me many important things, unlike school. A few examples for you : why i had to hold my breath whilst cleaning out the bilge pump in a force 8, 10 miles west of Jura and how to safely operate the chainsaw i got for my 12th birthday, i doubt school would have been much use for that.

Yes they don't teach you everything well done on that but I take it your Dad taught you to read and write? And many other basics that help everyday in life, maths, science and other such things?

I hated school I have dyslexia and went to school at at time it wasn't well accepted or dealt with, I missed vital early years due to an accident and the follow effects of that. Both the dyslexia handling and my accident meant I got behind in many things so struggled in lessons, I knew I could do the subjects I'd often be put into the 'special' class because I was behind this hindered me even more.

Despite all that it taught me enough basics to secure me a job which i then could concentrate on developing a career and control my dyslexia, this allowed me to progress well and succeed well in higher education, exams become an almost breeze if I was able to control it.

My Dad, Mother, Brother and generally living taught me life skills and common sense but they would never have paid my mortgage.

and to me, it indicates the school has a problem with the child as she didnt want to go to school, probably due to crap lessons, bullying or wanted a better education than they where providing, there are probably more sides to this story than a rubiks cube

That could be the case, and if it is the parents have a responsibility to raise those issues with the school, who have a responsibility to address them. There are many layers of responsibility here, and the issue is about identifying who is falling short.

Modern education has moved on a long way from "back in t'day", and I think many who think they 'know' what goes on in school, would be shocked to discover the steps that education professionals take to engage with learners, families and communities.

You simply do not end up in court on the whim of a rogue Headteacher from a poorly-performing school. If the school was not living up to expectations in a case like this, before it got to court, it would be P45s all round for the Management Team.

Project had the factors you see in this case actually existed he could have raised them either with the school or the court and avoided the prosecution conviction or fine.

Sounds like parenting from the Dunning-Kruger school of philosophy.

He may well have and been slapped down,like i said the law must be upheld and not broken even when its a patently wrong law.

Patently wrong to say it is a parents duty to ensure their child receives a suitable education?

somafunk - Member
poly - lets agree to disagree on this one, you go and sit over there, preferably out of sight and earshot........and i'll get on my bike and bugger-off into the distance.

And my dad taught me many important things, unlike school. A few examples for you : why i had to hold my breath whilst cleaning out the bilge pump in a force 8, 10 miles west of Jura and how to safely operate the chainsaw i got for my 12th birthday, i doubt school would have been much use for that.

An interesting thing is that almost every point 10 miles west of Jura is on land...

Seems odd to reinforce a child's poor behavior by taking them on holiday...
😀

I'm leaving this thread alone...

Next you'll be saying they also moved the goalposts
It's mostly swings 'n' roundabouts.

I think it's a tottaly different ball game

An interesting thing is that almost every point 10 miles west of Jura is on land...

Even the wet parts?.....jeez...ffsake!, to think i wasted all that time picking lumps of gaw'd knows what stinking tarry gunge out of the pumps and i was on dry land the entire time!, i cry child labour abuse!.........

Anyway...who mentioned democracy in this discussion? - i practice my version of "Drone Democracy", i jump into a thread, drop my shit and get out - personally i'm not bothered about attempting to have a discussion with or attempt to influence others online as that's just weird?, i leave the frantic willy-waving arguments for others to bother themselves about, I'm just right in everything i say....all the time/every time. 🙂

and to me, it indicates the school has a problem with the child as she didnt want to go to school, probably due to crap lessons, bullying or wanted a better education than they where providing, there are probably more sides to this story than a rubiks cube

Luckily there was a process by which all the relevant information and the different interpretations of the situation could be put to an objective decision maker - and hey - the link in the OP describes the conclusion they came to.

Next you'll be saying they also moved the goalposts

Hardly, they were sold off along with the playing fields.

People have a 'right' to a free education for their child at the State's expense.

With that come 'responsibilities' including providing a uniform where required, helping the school with any behaviour issues that their child exhibits, ensuring homework is done and ensuring their child turns up when they are supposed to.

Poor attendance by pupils has a massive impact on schools (both in terms of workload and 'judgement' by other State bodies) - so much of their work is judged by things that are easy to convert into statistics. Like the pupil premium being tied to number of children receiving free school dinners - there's schools near me offering free iPads to kids who qualify for and sign up to free school lunches.

Parents who choose not to undertake their responsibilities whilst still expecting their rights deserve all they get, imo.

[i]Mr Sutherland told the BBC it was his first family holiday for five years because his job as a Ministry of Defence (MoD) guard had prevented him from taking annual leave during the school holidays. [/i]

That sounds a bit odd as well. Are MOD sites at particular risk during the school holidays, so that all leave has to be cancelled?

He may well have and been slapped down,like i said the law must be upheld and not broken even when its a patently wrong law.

* I'd similarly guess that they will be the first to point the finger at said school when their child doesn't meet their expected grades. Because it seems schools live or die by their ability to rech predicted grades, even though this doesn't take any account of either the student's willingness to put the effort in or the parents commitment to help, encourage and motivate their child. See the "health foods enforced in school canteen = parents passing fish and chips through the school railings" incident which I think was mentioned earlier in this thread. (If not, the obesity one)

Mr Sutherland told the BBC it was his first family holiday for five years because his job as a Ministry of Defence (MoD) guard had prevented him from taking annual leave during the school holidays.

I'm calling BS on that one. I know there are restrictions on taking holidays as a MoD guard - it's not as straightforward as doing an office job as shifts have to be covered, but then it's no different to a lot of other jobs in that respect, like Drac's for instance. The MoD doesn't make any distinction on whether it's school holidays though and it seems he could take a week off in September.

Not exactly the brightest button in the box anyway - what exactly did he expect to gain by going to court when he was pleading guilty?

That sounds a bit odd as well. Are MOD sites at particular risk during the school holidays, so that all leave has to be cancelled?

I struggle to give all my staff holidays during school holidays as I can only have 1 member of each grade off on holiday per week. That said as we work 12 hours we have plenty of time off as the longer hours means less shifts.

The article states:

"The Department for Education (DfE) has given schools more power to deal with unauthorised absence, and has also increased the amount parents can be fined."

This is bollocks - I'm a School governor, we discussed these changes at our last full Governors meeting - the new rules give less power to schools, and all of the power to the Sec of State for Education, he is the only person who can now dictate when people can and cannot take their children out of School. It is almost impossible to find any clear examples of when Children are allowed to be taken out of school (e.g. Uncle's funeral, seemingly not allowed, grandparents funeral, seemingly not allowed…) and Heads are concerned that if they exercise their own judgement, then they will be criticised or worse.

For all of Gove's talk about empowering schools and Head Teachers, the only person he has empowered is himself.

Personally, I haven't ever taken my kids out of school (although I took a week out of School when I was younger to go on a trip to South America with the Scouts), but I have no problem with people who choose to do so, and would support a change in the rules back to giving heads the discretion, they are the ones who know who is taking the piss and who is not.

[quote=Drac ]I struggle to give all my staff holidays during school holidays as I can only have 1 member of each grade off on holiday per week. That said as we work 12 hours we have plenty of time off as the longer hours means less shifts.

You wouldn't be able to give a staff member a week in school holidays in 5 years?

[quote=bokonon ]For all of Gove's talk about empowering schools and Head Teachers, the only person he has empowered is himself.

Much like lots of other "empowering" from the current government (see Pickles and localism).

You wouldn't be able to give a staff member a week in school holidays in 5 years?

In 5 years I can yes I did say I struggle not that it was impossible. I can do it as there's plenty of school holidays to choose from I also try to be fair about it to make sure everyone gets a chance, it's not easy though as obviously most want the summer period

A few examples for you : why i had to hold my breath whilst cleaning out the bilge pump in a force 8, 10 miles west of Jura

Indeed, but what if you were caught in a F9 3 miles north of Mull? You'd be stumped. Meanwhile the kid in school probably got a Geography lesson on Meterology and decided that going out in a boat in that weather was stupid as he'd have to hold his breath every time he used the bilge pump.