[Closed] The last days of Empire?

I think you mean historic. And yes.

It's ironic that the English nationalist bandwagon the Conservative & Unionist Party have ridden into power will see the end of the union

Shock horror - pro independence lobby group publishes poll suggesting people want independence..

I’m not saying it’s not going to happen by the way, just that the publication of this particular poll is not in and of itself a historic event!

Maybe so. It still looks as if it is English nationalism that is driving a wedge between Wangerland and NI and Scotland though… quite predictably.

My concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate than real benefits of independence.

A bit like Brexshit.

The Welsh stats are interesting. I wonder if they would change much if Scotland and/or Northern Ireland left the UK.

The Welsh stats are interesting. I wonder if they would change much if Scotland and/or Northern Ireland left the UK.

Probably, IMO. There would be significant support for a different set-up at least.

The thing is - if the break-up of the UK were done in a spirit of co-operation and mutual benefit it would be a completely different proposition to an acrimonious break-up which would seem to be the most likely option currently.

An independent Wales would face many significant problems with its economy of course, and lesser one with transport - getting from North to South by train requires going through England, and there's not even a decent road linking the two halves either. Ok so it's not a practical issue but it looks crap from an emotional and political point of view.

Don't the Cornish want independance as well?

I think London and the SE should just split off and form their own country.

getting from North to South by train requires going through England, and there’s not even a decent road linking the two halves either.

Annexe Crewe?

Id put money on Scotland being independent within 10 years, if that long.

NI reuniting with the Republic, yes, id put money on that too but not so sure of time frame.

Wales, not so sure.

Loving the fact the Tory party have likely made this all happen.😁

Epicyclo's typically inflammatory anti-English tone in the thread title, I notice.

Annexe Crewe?

Logistically we need a north-south motorway, but environmentally it'd be absolutely criminal!

Maybe we could do a railway that takes trucks and cars, and give it loads of tunnels.

Annexe Crewe?

No ta.

footflaps
Subscriber
Don’t the Cornish want independance as well?

I think London and the SE should just split off and form their own country.

Is that with Cambridge included in the SE or not?

Can we not just ramp up devolution until we have a Federal UK?

Not sure if the Federal Govt should be in Westminster or somewhere new. After all, London was built by many Scots, Welsh and Irish as well as English, wasn't it?

molgrips
Member
Can we not just ramp up devolution until we have a Federal UK?

Unworkable. Unless england dissolves in to smaller parts.

molgrips
Member
Epicyclo’s typically inflammatory anti-English tone in the thread title, I notice.

He does have issues understanding Scotland was a willing member of the british empire.

We should just roll everything back about 1300 years.

He does have issues understanding Scotland was a willing member of the british empire.

Yes, it was a partner, it contributed massively and did very well out of it - better than England, in terms of influence/population IIRC.

Wales, not so sure

That was my thinking. I'm not au fait with Welsh politics so prefer not to post uninformed opinion (a position a few other folk should try adopting).

There has in Wales been a sense of solidarity with the Scots and NIrish, as you'd expect from a conglomeration of groups dominated by one far larger. But the problem is that whilst Wales has a strong identity within itself, we don't really have any of the physical, political or psychological foundations of a modern state because Wales never was one, unlike Scotland.

So there are plenty of people who think even devolution and the current WA is a load of rubbish and a waste of money; but likewise there are people particularly in Welsh speaking areas who feel like an occupied country, and not without justification.

'Cofiwch Dryweryn' even a decade ago was basically one large painting on a ruined building on a hillside - now it's all over the place and it's not just graffiti any more.

When HM E2 shuffles off this mortal coil, then the empire will be no more

My concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate than real benefits of independence.

Spot on

My concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate than real benefits of independence.

This.

Thing is with cummings in power Scotlands going nowhere. If by some fluke we manage to get a more sane UK government the desire to leave will reduce.

Salmon and Sturgeon weren't much better than Boris and chums when it came to referendum campaigning, lots of big bold statements and lots of setting up the other side to blame when it went wrong. All the oils is ours (bet it wouldn't have been, and the oil industry isn't in great shape at the moment), we'll stay in the EU, categorically not true according to the EU they would have had to re-apply with no guarantees.

The only real difference was the people of Scotland weren't taken in like idiots south of the border were with Brexit.

My wife and I are seriously considering a move North across the border...

My concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate than real benefits of independence.

welcome to brexit britain!

Annexe Crewe

Worst hip hop collective ever.

I think you mean historic.

I'd lay money on 'Hysterical'

When HM E2 shuffles off this mortal coil, then the empire will be no more

Technically Lizzy Windsor is QE1 of this glorious union of equals but that small fact was ignored by one partner that regards itself as more equal than the others.....

The welsh will be stuck with the english. poor bastards.

molgrips
Epicyclo’s typically inflammatory anti-English tone in the thread title, I notice.

That sounds like the sort of thing a BritNat would say, thinking it's all about England.

seosamh77
He does have issues understanding Scotland was a willing member of the british empire.

No, he doesn't. But it doesn't make the Empire right. We were fed lies and bullshit about its civilising influence when we were taught history, and some people still think it was an enormous beneficent organisation instead of a tool to plunder other people's resources.

It's time to stop the robber baron approach.

Wales is complicated....despite rumours of their passing Labour still rule the roost in much of the nation and Labour are more committed to “the union” than anyone else at the moment including the tories.

Many in Wales are starting to realise the choice is between independence...difficult as that might be and Cornwallisation....a gradual extinction of identity and a subsuming into a Quasi English identity.

My concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate than real benefits of independence.

I think this is where I am personally. Given the vote today I would be grabbing the pencil and putting my cross in the yes box without hesitation. If I have lived in Scotland in 2014 I am certain I would have voted No. A lot has happened since them. I am very conscious my desire to vote Yes is based largely on the Tory government, the oxygen thief arsehole brexit supporters that are happily mostly south of the border and the possibility of leaving the monarchy behind too.

I appreciate I need to do more reading to better understand the full implications (+ve and -ve) of independence so as to have a better more rounded and less reactionary reason should the opportunity arise. Or I'll be no better than the union flag waving bellends I dislike so much.

matt_outandabout
Subscriber

My concern is that the swing to breaking up an annoyance is more about unhappiness with our current political climate

Yes. Sort of. I mean, yes it's mostly about the current climate, but you need to bear in mind that the current climate is longstanding, worsening, and shows no real signs of improvement. We have, almost certainly, the worst postwar government- least competent, least imaginative, least honest, most corrupt and most deadly- and a reasonably capable opposition but even then, that's not enough to stop England from voting tory. And on top of that you have the way the last few elections proved how dysfunctional FPTP has and the crippling effect that has on politic, and the absolute toothlessness of political regulators, and the growing power of bullshit over facts and three word slogans over complicated but real things.

Like with global warming, climate isn't weather. Seeking independence because of the current political weather would be a terrible idea. But climate lasts, and with over a decade of the wettest weather imaginable and forecasts saying "it'll keep raining til the end of the year, then it'll be replaced by fire tornadoes", climate is worth taking very seriously indeed.

Being English it also annoys me that I'm stuck with these idiots.

Also stuck with the royal family. I've gone very Republican over the last few years. We (all the nations) need rid.

I’ve gone very Republican over the last few years. We (all the nations) need rid.

I agree. Of course you have to accept I don’t recognise your claim to your rights any more than you do theirs.

molgrips Member
The thing is – if the break-up of the UK were done in a spirit of co-operation and mutual benefit it would be a completely different proposition to an acrimonious break-up which would seem to be the most likely option currently.

Sadly I imagine that if Scotland voted for independence, particularly if the predicted fallout from leaving the EU was really starting to bite, there'd be enormous public pressure in England to "punish the ungrateful Scots like the mean EU punished us". And that would be an opinion that a Tory government would be all to happy to go along with.

That sounds like the sort of thing a BritNat would say, thinking it’s all about England.

As a Welsh person I am acutely aware that it's not. But similarly I'm also aware that Scottish Nats seem always to paint it in terms of Scotland vs England. But you are strongly anti-English in your forum contributions, this is undeniable!

The welsh will be stuck with the english. poor bastards.

The Wales independance train is chugging on nicely,everyday Joris is in power,new tracks are being laid for an indywales.

I’m also aware that some Scottish Nats seem always to paint it in terms of Scotland vs England

FTFY

epicyclo

No, he doesn’t. But it doesn’t make the Empire right.

The empire is something historical though, so in the context of the breakup of the uk. it's irrelevant and has no place in the conversation. Independence is about looking forward now backwards.

If this is an empire, it's a pretty shit one. the last days of the empire have been and gone.

The only way for the UK to survive, and I think it is too far gone, would be something like the Swiss model where. there is maximum devolution for most things.

molgrips
Member

As a Welsh person I am acutely aware that it’s not. But similarly I’m also aware that Scottish Nats seem always to paint it in terms of Scotland vs England.

It's the nature of unequal "partnerships" tbh, the English dominance of the UK means that they also dominate the arguments against it. And fuel them of course.

I mean, we're more with Wales and NI than we are agin them tbh which is the other major influence there- but even if Wales was devoutly Tory and unionist to the hilt, any debate about leaving the UK would still be NI or Scotland vs England, because the Welsh influence would be so much smaller.

(take Brexit as a perfect example- yes it's irritating that Wales supported brexit, but for their votes to have made a difference they'd have needed to vote massively in favour of leaving, more so than any other UK region. The disparities in population mean that the Welsh input isn't the deciding factor

Bannon has been arrested!

Oh sorry,I'll get my coat.

Like with global warming, climate isn’t weather. Seeking independence because of the current political weather would be a terrible idea. But climate lasts,

This. Of course the current government is less than ideal - Brexit, Covid-19, corruption etc, but it's not like this is only time the Scottish voters have voted one way only to be see a different party in power at Westminster. In fact, that has been the most common outcome since WW2. IIRC, there has only been one UK GE where the Scottish vote affected the outcome. And it would seem that, regardless of how shit the Tories are, they're likely to be in power for a good few years yet.

it’s not like this is only time the Scottish voters have voted one way only to be see a different party in power at Westminster.

You could say the same about other UK regions could you not?

As I said before - the only difference between Scottish independence and strong regional devolution or federalism is an ancient line on a map. What ties someone in Carlisle to London and not Dumfries?

What next, protons and neutrons demanding independence, where will we be then?

Being English it also annoys me that I’m stuck with these idiots.

There's room up north for you. And I can confirm, a bit like the best of house party's, every one is welcome to pitch up and pitch in.
Said as an Indian born Englishman living in Scotland with absolutely no intention of ever leaving.

He does have issues understanding Scotland was a willing member of the british empire.

It was, after all, a Scottish king who took power over both Scotland and England, and who drove the idea of Union between the two.
Wales has never been a separate country, only a principality.

molgrips
Member

You could say the same about other UK regions could you not?

Absolutely. In fact, all of the other regions except England. They have got the government they voted for every year since 1974, with 2 exceptions- one, the Con/Lib coalition, and the last Blair election (but in that case, it was practically tied- 35.5% to 35.7%).

In the same timescale, Scotland got what it voted for 4 times- a third. England got exactly what it voted for 10 times, a coalition that was much like what it voted for once, and a government within .1% of what they voted for once.

I don't have the same figures conveniently for Wales and NI, but I bet 20 scottish pence that they didn't get what they voted 10-and-2-bits times out of 12.

And it's not that this is unfair, or undemocratic. But it doesn't need to be unfair or undemocratic to be a problem.

FPTP and the left/right division in UK politics has a strong polarising effect on this- because more often than not, when a majority government exists, that one party didn't actually hold a majority of votes, they were just the biggest loser. That doesn't affect left and right equally, because most of the time there is one party sweeping up most of the right wing votes which works well in FPTP, while there are 3 large parties taking up the more left wing.

That's poorly explained... Maybe better demonstrated. In the last election, the Tories had a "landslide" but in fact, polled fractionally worse than Labour and the Lib Dems combined. But the Tories got 365 seats because they're a single unit, while Labour and the Lib Dems got 213 despite having more votes.

This is an issue that for various reasons disproportionately benefits the right. And that in turn means it disproportionately disadvantages those nations which vote more to the left.

And just to bring that full circle, the problem isn't just that some places consistently get the party they voted for while others don't. It's also that when those places don't get what they voted for, they generally get something very different, and further something that's a small minority here. While England has always had its first or second choice since the war, and when it's got its second, it's usually been something very close to the first. There has never been any equivalent of England voting SNP and getting Boris Johnson, and probably never can be. It's like England's second prize is a share of the jackpot and scotland and probably the other's second prize is a kick in the baws.

And again, none of that's a conspiracy or a fix. It's just that it's not working. And because it's not a fix or a conspiracy but a load of different factors that have built up over decades, it's not at all easy to fix. And the direction of travel is in the wrong direction.

(goes without saying that the SNP benefit mightily from FPTP in terms of seats. Mathematically, they're the biggest benificiaries of the main parties. But realistically, the Tories benefit more, because they get less seats out of it but more governments)

molgrips
Member

As I said before – the only difference between Scottish independence and strong regional devolution or federalism is an ancient line on a map. What ties someone in Carlisle to London and not Dumfries?

The fact that Carlisle has never wanted to be anything else. I'm pretty sure they'd be welcome to declare for Scotland 😉 And you guys can have Harthill. But the bottom line is, you've got to be in a region, and these are the regions we have, and there's very little desire to change that so it has to be dealt with.

One of the solutions of course is to create more regions, but funnily enough the big region that benefits the most from the current system doesn't like that idea, and has always framed the problem as something that only affects other people. Except of course when they want to do England-only governing in the United Kingdom government and think that this is a problem because of those intruders from elsewhere, rather than because they're doing local government in the wrong place. But I digress...

molgrips
As I said before – the only difference between Scottish independence and strong regional devolution or federalism is an ancient line on a map.

Scotland already has similar powers to regions in federal nations like germany if not more for example. So your whole federal argument is moot. Federalism wouldn't bring scotland any more powers.

And full on regional federalism isn't possible in the Uk anyhow, England doesn't want it.

What ties someone in Carlisle to London and not Dumfries?

The same applies worldwide, what difference is there to someone in glasgow, london, berlin, syndey, tokyo, bejiing. That's the natural conclusion to that argument. which I agree with borders should be unneccessary, but thet exist and will continue to, so it's fanciful nonsense, we live in a world of borders, and those borders are transient. They change all the time.

There is nothing sacrosanct about the uk borders. The current uk borders are barely even 100 years old. So the question easily can get flipped on it's head, what ties someone from glasgow, belfast, cardiff and london together. I don't see a british union as necessary, nor eternal. Have you see the bams in westminster? It's not set up to work for you or I, under any party.

So leave off the british nationalist slant that you so often like to go down. Politics is about opportunity, and we'll get the opportunity again at some point.

That's the only difference. There's no Scottish exceptionalism, that you're trying to hint at.

molgrips
Member

You could say the same about other UK regions could you not?

The northeast of England is a region.
Strathclyde is (or was) a region.

Scotland is not a region of the UK. It is one of the supposedly united kingdoms.

Beware.

molgrips
But you are strongly anti-English in your forum contributions, this is undeniable!

It is very deniable. I am very anti-English government, not anti-English.

There's a huge difference.

Wanting your country to be governed by its own citizens and not the big neighbouring country next door is normal. It doesn't make you racist because you don't like it.

seosamh77
If this is an empire, it’s a pretty shit one. the last days of the empire have been and gone.

The last days are when the Union collapses because the devolved countries in it are treated very much like colonies.

And that will be good for each of those countries IMO.

Although perhaps England needs a final convulsion and the elimination of its undemocratic form of government.

It is very deniable. I am very anti-English government, not anti-English.

There’s a huge difference.

I can confirm having met epicyclo and many thousands of others like him, that this is an entirely normal viewpoint in Scotland.

These arguments look like Brexit writ small.

I imagine any breakup will be just as successful.

It is very deniable. I am very anti-English government, not anti-English.

There’s a huge difference.

You need to work on your language in that case.

Wanting your country to be governed by its own citizens and not the big neighbouring country next door is normal.

It already is governed by its own citizens. The act of union happened. Why are the actions of say Malcom I perfectly valid, and the act of union not? Why are Gaelic speakers from the Western Isles all fine to be in your group, but people from Northumbria not? It's because of that line across the island that you've grown up with, that you've been inculcated to believe is separating two fundamentally different classes of humanity. And this is only a received idea, there is nothing real about it.

Nationalism. Is. Bullshit.

It is very deniable. I am very anti-English government, not anti-English.

It's a British government. Plenty of Scottish people in it.

These arguments look like Brexit writ small.

If you hadn't bothered looking very closely I can see why they would look the same, kind of like how a cucumber and a squash look similar.

Why don't you look a bit closer and come back when you're a bit more educated and can actually contribute to the thread?

Nationalism. Is. Bullshit.

I would do away with borders if I had my way. I don't think it's going to happen, do you?

Since we're probably going to have to deal with borders for at least the next couple of generations can we at least agree that they are real things? I mean, I know they're not and they are just things we have mentally constructed but the same argument can be made about money.

Do you also want to argue that money isn't real?

Why don’t you look a bit closer and come back when you’re a bit more educated and can actually contribute to the thread?

a bit rich. fundamentally the arguments and campaigning methods are very similar though oddly a lot of scottish nationalists don't seem to be able to see it. still, it's another epicyclo 'let's bring up independence again thread' that will just re-tread all the others. i can see the point that scotland now are being dragged out of europe against it's (their?) will now so that changes things and agree to a certain extent. passes the time of day i suppose but i'm on holiday so i'm going to take the dogs out in the rain.

Not the same argument. The Scottish government does not set policy at Westminster, and has no veto over major changes made there. The UK government set EU policy, gained opt outs for anything it didn’t want to be a part of, and could veto any major changes that would effect the UK. The UK government can do what it likes and just bat the Scottish government off as a minor irritant, rather than a major source of policy making with a final say over anything it does.

a bit rich. fundamentally the arguments and campaigning methods are very similar though oddly a lot of scottish nationalists don’t seem to be able to see it.

Or they are completely different (ie, 'We want to be a small country with close relations with our neighbors' vs 'We want to be a great big world beating country whose neighbors bow down before us.'

See also, 'We need and want immigrants.' vs 'Breaking point.'

If you see them as the same things it's either because you haven't actually looked very closely or you just really really want them to be the same.

good luck with it all anyway. hope it works out for you.

Epicyclo’s typically inflammatory anti-English tone

He's not anti-English. I've met him several times and I'm English.

"Some of my best friends are English"

I would do away with borders if I had my way. I don’t think it’s going to happen, do you?

It did happen, in 1707 and also in 1283.

Not the same argument. The Scottish government does not set policy at Westminster, and has no veto over major changes made there. The UK government set EU policy, gained opt outs for anything it didn’t want to be a part of, and could veto any major changes that would effect the UK. The UK government can do what it likes and just bat the Scottish government off as a minor irritant, rather than a major source of policy making with a final say over anything it does.

Yeah. UK government - UK includes Scotland. It's not the English government. The current constitutional arrangement of not having an English government is a big issue here.

molgrips
“Some of my best friends are English”

I realise you read my posts with your shit filter glasses, but that comment obviously aimed at me.

If you can scour my old posts and show me anything that is overtly anti-English, throw it up and I'll apologise.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to regard my country as a country, and keep doing whatever I can so that it can be run democratically by its own people.

And back to the Empire theme: having being brought up in and having lived in outposts of the Empire I know the nitty gritty of how it was obtained. Basically mass murder.

It's going to be a great thing to see it finally disintegrate.

Meanwhile, I’ll continue to regard my country as a country

You're not though, you're regarding it as an Empire (see thread title). Your country is the UK.

Westminster government is UK government, it governs the UK and happens to be based in London. Scotland is a region that has more devolved powers than most areas.

The North West of England is a region, it has a lot more people in it than Scotland, it doesn't have the additional layer of government and autonomy. I live in the North West of England, I really despise the current government and recognise that our political system is not fit for purpose but I'm not mental enough to want to destroy what we have got by being a separate entity, despite the political idiots we're still better off being part of the bigger nation. When someone can actually put a coherent argument in front of me that splitting up the union will resolve our political issues I'll listen.

Scottish government is the government of opposition, it's easy to blame Westminster for every ill (especially at the moment) but there's no way wee Jimmy Crankie and team can make Scotland any better than it already is. It's a small population, reliant on a dwindling and outdated oil industry at the political and geographical margins of Europe. Think Europe will come to the rescue, not while Spain has anything to say about it, last thing they want to do is encourage a region to declare independence.

But hey, crack on with your them and us politics.

But hey, crack on with your them and us politics.

A British nationalist accusing others of 'them and us' politics. Good stuff.

 It’s a small population, reliant on a dwindling and outdated oil industry at the political and geographical margins of Europe.

Too wee, too poor,

A few countries that are obviously too small to be independent.

A British nationalist accusing others of ‘them and us’ politics.

What?

A few countries that are obviously too small to be independent.

All those countries had their independence in completely different contexts and with different histories. Suggesting it's only about population size is bobbins.

but there’s no way wee Jimmy Crankie and team can make Scotland any better than it already is.

You do realise that after independence Scotland won't be a single party state, don't you?

Or are you in the camp that believes Scots can't govern themselves because of some sort of genetic deficiency?

but there’s no way wee Jimmy Crankie and team can make Scotland any better than it already is. It’s a small population, reliant on a dwindling and outdated oil industry at the political and geographical margins of Europe

Keep talking, that kind of shite is way more effective than any pro-indy talk. 🙂

All those countries had their independence in completely different contexts and with different histories. Suggesting it’s only about population size is bobbins.

Yes, lots of different stories and contexts. What they all have in common is that none of them have had a burning desire to return to their previous owners.

What is it about Scotland that is different in this respect?

Your country is the UK.

Would you use the same attitude/language with a member of sinn Fein? Or does the fact that Irish Nationalists have been 'a bit' fighty in our lifetimes mean their position gets a bit more respect or at least the language used with them a bit more muted?

Curiously the Irish nationalists could be the winners out of the increase in the popularity of the breaking up of the union across the whole UK - you could argue we (the non Irish catholics) are collectively more understanding of their viewpoint now than 20-30 years ago as the union feels more and more uncomfortable for more of us.

It did happen, in 1707 and also in 1283.

What?

Suggesting it’s only about population size is bobbins.

You're right of course.

Those countries also self-govern completely, their people closer to the politicians and without interference from an over-bearing, larger and self-interested neighbour. I have visited all but Ireland on that list, and they seem to be rather splendid places to live, work and belong to.

wee Jimmy Crankie

I find this is a nice handy shibboleth for deciding whether someones views are worth engaging with.

Suggesting it’s only about population size is bobbins.

Exactly my point.

scotroutes

IIRC, there has only been one UK GE where the Scottish vote affected the outcome. And it would seem that, regardless of how shit the Tories are, they’re likely to be in power for a good few years yet.

It's happened at least three times, most recently 2010 when we would have had a Conservative majority without Scotland's votes.

I'll bet one of my testicles and one of my eyeballs - if/when Scotland gets independent it will be shit. There will be approx 3 million or so versions of the independence. The one you get will NOT be the one YOU imagined. This will be the fault of the English. It will turn out that the TNUMTWNT POV will be bollox. This will manifest on both sides of the border.

You think you're going to get a bountiful, chaste and true democracy? You know why your parliament cost £400 million over budget? - The first footstep to independence. Because it was riddled with corruption, ******* RIDDLED with it - the favours and "payments" were still being called in a decade after the place was finished.

"But it will be Scottish shit! Better than English shit!"