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Sketchy reporting so far, but it seems the three people who were in the house have been arrested for murder! Are there some new laws coming into force regarding defending your property?? Oh and as for his three mates (accomplices) nice, just left him in the road to bleed to death. 😯
we need to get more details to decide.
you can defend your property and yourself but you can only use reasonable force.Do you want the right to use unreasonable force ?
Your possessions can always be replaced but lifes cannot and all lives are precious. A parent grieves tonight
nothing in stories like this make me happy.
What JY said. There are no winners here. 😐
Horrible occurrence all round, I have to be honest if 3 people in balaclavas burst into my house with my family in it, my response would be very robust.
The three people with the stabbed man at the time of the incident have yet to be traced, Mr Mulligan said.
[b]
He urged them[/b], or anyone who knows of their whereabouts, [b]to contact Greater Manchester Police[/b].
Like that's going to happen!
As above it's too early to judge (even on the internet!) but imo the moment you attempt to burgle another you are putting yourself in harms way. Might be mitigating factors to follow I guess.
4 people burglarising a house?
I'm going to, and on no evidence whatsoever, say this is going to be drug related. As in they were after a drug stash. Allegedly.
In this day and age is it not a case of like for like?
If the intruder is screaming at you, you can scream back.If he hits you,you can hit him back.If he does whatever to you,you can do the same back but if you step over the mark and stab him after he was shouting at you.. you can expect to go down for it? Poor show if thats the case!
Junkyard - Memberwe need to get more details to decide.
you can defend your property and yourself but you can only use reasonable force.Do you want the right to use unreasonable force ?
Your possessions can always be replaced but lifes cannot and all lives are precious. A parent grieves tonight
nothing in stories like this make me happy.
sadly, i doubt very much that the intruders announced to the homeowner that they were merely just going to help themselves to their possessions and then leave.... People wil always seek to defend themselves, their family and their property. Would you just stay in bed and wait for......?
Will this mean an increase in burglars going into homes "tooled up" to defend themselves, not a pretty thought in my opinion.
Oh and 4 burglars in a house, i agree sounds more like a kicking was in the offing or similar.
My response would be "take whatever the **** you want but leave us alone" despite me being mr crazy motherducking ninja man. 😯
My response would be "take whatever the **** you want but leave us alone" despite me being mr crazy motherducking ninja man
Most would act similar. Thing is you are expecting the intruders to have the same moral compass as you do. Only recently a guy was in my local paper for getting stabbed after being mugged. The mugger demanded his phone, wallet etc. He complied and handed them over, and then matey stabbed him anyway. Guy just survived.
There is a point in there somewhere.
If the intruder is screaming at you, you can scream back.If he hits you,you can hit him back.If he does whatever to you,you can do the same back but if you step over the mark and stab him after he was shouting at you.. you can expect to go down for it? Poor show if thats the case
There's a little bit more to it than that but kind of the gist. 4 against one then reasonable force to defend yourself might be seen as different as 1 on 1.
Regardless of that this is a horrible situation.
4 guys in balaclava's......!
somehow I think this is more than just burglery...
still sad ...someone is dead though.
There is a point in there somewhere.
🙂
Probably, that sometimes, it's just not gonna be your day.
Probably, that sometimes, it's just not gonna be your day.
Indeed.
No new laws are needed - you can use reasonable force to defend yourself and your property and people use this as a successful defence all the time.
Like I say very sketchy at the mo, I heard four intruders, but heard nothing re the drugs stash. Theyve got to be serious bad asses to refuse to roll over to four balaclava'd blokes and come out alive. As said above no real winners!!
as i said in my post have the right to defend myself so if I had to I would defend myself.
FWIW the best advice is to make LOTS OF NOISE as you get up. Once theyy know you are awake loudly call the police then investigate if you really wish to. I would certainly be protecting my children but I would not be getting the kitchen knife out or chasing them down the street for a bike or anything else I own.
most thiefs will leave if they disturb you as they dont want to get caught.
Re the above stabbing imagine what they would have done if he had resisted.
TeeJ, don't go getting this one closed down either, ok? Otherwise, I'll be round, to throw baklava at you!
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm baklava
"rubs tummy"
Nahhh ... If 3 people in balaclavas burst into the house and try to harm the family. Shoot them dead (Texan accent). End of.
What's all this shite about philosophising what action to take? Think about that later when harm is over.
It's better them dead than regret for the rest of your life for not defending the family, imagine sexual assault on one member of your family, and even if they are caught later on they would be honeymooning in jail demanding their human rights.
🙄
Re the above stabbing imagine what they would have done if he had resisted.
Stabbed him?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-13885457 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-13885457[/url]
Assuming it is drug related because there is 4 of then is nonsense. It happens here all the time, they'll just smash their way in through patio doors in broad daylight and get valuables and cars and be gone within minutes. Sure it could well have a drug connection, but not just because there were 4 bally'd up.
As for getting stabbed and dying, if they hadn't tried to break in he'd still be alive, so he got what he deserved as far as I can see. It'll be a tragedy if the homeowners are convicted of a crime.
4 involved tells me they knew what to expect
If they have used reasonable force they won't be as there would be no grounds to prosecute.
Find a single case where someone has been prosecuted for defending themselves and their property.
Re the above stabbing imagine what they would have done if he had resisted.
Stabbed him?
I was thinking more along the lines of killed him in a stabbing frenzy then taken the things anyway.
Loddrick they tried to break in the report does not say they achieved this and the 999 call said they were trying to break in. He may well have been stabbed outside the house , chased down the street, in which case what was the person defending?
possessions are not worth more than lifes
Tony Martin???
My aunts second husband used to be in the met and got to be quite senior in the flying squad back in the day. His advice to me once was if you ever get burgled make sure any weapon you use against an intruder is an every day item (i.e. not a knife but something good and heavy and easy to swing about; I favour a heavy torch) and to ensure that none of the wounds inflicted on the intruder are on their back. Oh, and he also advised killing any intruders as then you can claim it was self defence and they won't be in a position to argue with you in court 😯
To his credit he stood by his advice when burgled a few years ago and had to be restrained by a former colleague as he attempted to beat the guy to death. Funnily enough no charges were ever brought against him...lot of tricky stairs in the police station apparently.
ah nothing like police corruption to make you feel better about this sort of thing
Tony martin shot someone in the back so the self defence claim was not upheld.
Was Big Dave's uncle called Big John?
Do you want the right to use unreasonable force ?
Yes please.
lot of tricky stairs in the police station apparently.
[img] 
[/img]
Was Big Dave's uncle called Big John?
I call him 'Sir' at family gatherings and try to avoid looking him in the eye!
I bet the burglars knew the burlarees
Was the burglar from Louisiana?
Was he trying to steal his favourite ornament, the "Cajun Queen"?
I would have to say that if someone was breaking into my property i'd be too scared to do anything but call the police.
wrightyson - MemberTony Martin???
Shot a burgler in the back as he ran away. Not reasonable force.
Shot a burgler in the back as he ran away. Not reasonable force.
not when you take away the fact that he was the victim of a number of burglaries and he had psychological issues that made him slightly paranoid.
Nope - not reasonable force as that is whet the jury decided - that is the definition of reasonable.
I was burgled once. If I had been home at the time and had a knife in my hand they too would have got stabbed.
If they dont go burgling houses then they wont get stabbed while burgling a house. It's pretty simple really.
TandemJeremy - Memberwrightyson - Member
Tony Martin???
Shot a burgler in the back as he ran away. Not reasonable force.
Nahhh ... use bow and arrow instead or a crossbow or booby trap them with bear trap.
TJ has it Tony Martin shot one of them in the back which suggests the guy was running away not attacking.
Drac - ModeratorTJ has it Tony Martin shot one of them in the back which suggests the guy was running away not attacking.
Yes, but the guy (the burglar) is dead. No more. Kaput. Problem solved. No more stress.
We still need to feed Tony Martin if he is jailed for life because that's his human rights.
We still need to feed Tony Martin because that's his rights.
Ay?
Drac, there really is no point...
If they dont go burgling houses then they wont get stabbed while burgling a house. It's pretty simple really.
so whatever happens and whatever you do it will always be their fault and you cannot be unreasonable or over zealous.
I find the attitude of those who would kill just as unpalatable as those who would rob. Neither is reasonable behaviour IMHO. It is not like Vikings are arriving and you need to fight for your life or your families.
Nahhh ... use bow and arrow instead or a crossbow or booby trap them with bear trap.
I have a longbow with a 70lb draw, my mate has a goats-foot crossbow with a 320lb draw weight. The longbow will definitely kill, the crossbow will probably put a hole in someone you could put your arm through, not really the sort of thing to be shooting at anyone.
live by the sword.. die by the sword.. I have no sympathy..
If they dont go burgling houses then they wont get stabbed while burgling a house. It's pretty simple really.
's pretty much my feelings.
I find the attitude of those who would kill just as unpalatable as those who would rob.
See, here's the thing. This is the Internet. It's like being in the pub after six pints. People will make bold cocksure claims like "well, if they came in my house, they'd bloody regret it, I'd kick the snot out of them and they'd beg me to kill them by the end" when in actual fact what would really happen is that they'd involuntarily piss themselves and cry like a schoolgirl whose puppy just got run over. Myself included.
Once you break the law you forfit any rights. You chose to enter the house. If you choose to enter a derelict building and it falls on you. Your choice. If you choose to ride a black run and you hurt your self, your choice.
1 less I say and good job.
If only insurers saw it that black and White!!
Cougar - MemberSee, here's the thing. This is the Internet. It's like being in the pub after six pints. People will make bold cocksure claims like "well, if they came in my house, they'd bloody regret it, I'd kick the snot out of them and they'd beg me to kill them by the end" when in actual fact what would really happen is [b]that they'd involuntarily piss themselves and cry like a schoolgirl whose puppy just got run over. Myself included.[/b]
LOL! True, true ... yes, minor things you might as well let them have it but if your family is in danger just don't be a nancy boy and defend with all your might until the last drop of your blood.
Junkyard: "It is not like Vikings are arriving and you need to fight for your life or your families."
True, true ... they are fighting machine ...
wrightyson - MemberIf only insurers saw it that black and White!!
Insurers! Runnnnn!!! Damn! ... That you definitely do not want to mess with.
People will make bold cocksure claims like "well, if they came in my house, they'd bloody regret it, I'd kick the snot out of them and they'd beg me to kill them by the end
As a counter balance, I would shit myself and they would probably feel too embarrassed by me crying in the foetal position to even steal my stuff.
He complied and handed them over, and then matey stabbed him anyway. Guy just survived.There is a point in there somewhere.
Clearly 😯
Another reasonable force gone too far:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2010/01/20/uk-britain-vigilante-idUKTRE60J2J420100120
At least people are talking about burglaries, it's not "robbery" as OP has listed, very different offences.
Who knows what happened but it does look as if a "not entirely innocent fella" suffered so the incident is not without some symmetry.
Should'nt have broken in!
I know one thing i will do the same if confronted with someone in my house
got what the scum deserves.And shows what scum they where has his friends
left him there.
Zero tolerance here
My dad gave me his old lead injected chair leg that he used to keep under the bar in the pub we used to own.It now rests beside me and the wifes bed in our home.Never used it.Never want to use it but I will if me and/or my family are ever endagerd.Before anyone says "you can't use that" it's simple - don't break into my house and I won't have to.
still burglary, even with 3 people in the house ?At least people are talking about burglaries, it's not "robbery" as OP has listed, very different offences
(genuine question, btw)
then you could be charged with an offence the same as if you were tooled up in the street for purely self protection reasons. Why not use it only if they attack you rather than because they enter your property?
Two wrongs dont make a right.
[i]Every morning at the mine, you could see him arrive.
He stood 6 foot 6, weighed 245.[/i]
an other P.O.S off the streets, these people will only piss on you if your on fire to put the flames out so they can steal your wallet,yes a waste of a young life ,it was there choice to to go into the house, wait now to see the facts.
Clearly
Yes.
I have no information but that terrible bad person should definiteley be shot or killed. I spelled definitely right btw.
then you could be charged with an offence the same as if you were tooled up in the street for purely self protection reasons. Why not use it only if they attack you rather than because they enter your property?
Two wrongs dont make a right.
In reality this is seldom the case. Although it may be in daily mail land. Unless the intruder receives an absolutely disproportionate hiding nobody from the police to the legal system are interested despite what urban myths are out there.
I'd say getting killed would be classed as a disproportionate hiding.
yes good point and a fair correction, sorry I was getting carried away there. I was assuming they said they would kill them [ as others suggest] but they did not. They mean to defend themself which they can do. Hit them a few times ok beat them to death not ok.
Some people think the later is ok the poster I responded to to has not suggested this. Sorry.
I've been down there today covering this story.... don't know yet what really happened however seeing the police presence, size of the cordon and the fact that no one in the area would talk to us (didn't want to get involved) there is way more to this than a burglary gone wrong.
I would shit myself if someone broke into my house in the middle of the night but I think if you break and enter someone elses property than you sign away all and every one of your rights...ergo if you get killed than that's tough shit. If you're big enough to try and pull stuff like that than you should be big enough to face the consequences.
The crux of the matter for me is that you have no idea of somebody's intention when they arrive. Sure, it is harsh if some guy gets shot dead for trying to nick a laptop in somebody else's living room. But if you wake up in the middle of the night with strangers in balaclava's in your house and you comply with them to avoid violence...what if they then rape your wife? Beat your kids?
I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves on a charge for defending themselves in this situation. It's easy to analyse reasonable force sat at a computer or in a courtroom after the event but it must be terrifying at the time not knowing what is going to happen.
The moral of the story is don't break into people's homes and you don't risk getting pounded on. I can think of few reasons why you would find yourselves in a strangers house in the middle of the night by accident.
Can't say I am sad that some thieving lowlife is now dead. Should be more of I think (dead thieving lowlifes). I am fed up with people thinking they can have whatever they want and that there are no consequences.
I think we will find out that this may not have been a burglary but some sort of dispute that went wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if the protagonists knew each other, burglary used as a cover etc. Time will tell!
It could very well be robbery scaredypants -only people can be robbed and only properties/premises can be burgled. People in a property are robbed when violence is used or threatened in order to steal from them.
I'd probably shit myself too but I've two small children and a wife to protect, I'm probably bigger than the burglar and once the adrenaline kicked in I'd be looking to maim or kill tbh. No apologies for that.
there are no consequences.
I know two Consequences. They both seem like reasonable people though and probably don't believe in idiotic things like capital punishment.
Good on people that do though... woooh, let's kill some people who are desperate enough to steal from others, yay, awesome!!!
So would i DD are you infering thats what i said?
There is a general misconception that if you slap a burglar you will get locked up etc when it's quite evidently bollocks. The point I am making (and by the miracle of copy and paste I made that clear) if you give a burglar a good hiding then you will not be treated as if you are "tooled up"
what if they then rape your wife? Beat your kids?
well not really a burglary and really really unlikely to happen. i think in these, unlikely, circumstance everyone would use force.
No one is saying you cannot defend yourself you can. What people are saying is that it is not OK to kill them because they have broken into your house and those who are have not really explained to me why they think this is ok
The moral of the story is don't break into people's homes and you don't risk getting pounded on.
burglary = bad , killing = bad, two wrongs dont make a right.
if you give a burglar a good hiding then you will not be treated as if you are "tooled up"
it is not that clear. If you grab an object to hand you will probably be ok. if you keep a bat at the side of your bed and use that they may ask why you had it. the extent of the good hiding will also be a [ probably more important]factor.
I'm not inferring anything surfer. Stop trying to start a fight. Otherwise I may have to take the well rolled up magazine I keep by the side of the bed and give you and that disproportionately cute dog of yours a hiding. 😀
Surrounded By Zulus - MemberIf they dont go burgling houses then they wont get stabbed while burgling a house. It's pretty simple really.
🙂