[Closed] The labour party

I thought this was the labour party you were hoping for?

Those nasty blairites out!
Momentum candidates on the front benches.
Stop the war backers to the fore.
A "new kind of politics"

What ever it is, it's the most horrific car crash of a spectacle.

All will agree with The Glorious Leader! There will be unity!

The labour party

Who?

You have to wonder how its got to this? From putting Corbyn forward as a 'tokenist' lefty in the leadership battle, he not only got elected, but has taken the party of a steep downward spiral.

Is this the way of the far left? So wrapped up in their ideology, they are completely unable to see the bigger picture?

The country made the right choice. I thought their 'we know best, voters don't know what's good for them' approach sealed their fate as far as I was concerned. I hope they crash and burn fast so they can rebuild because I can't see any other way forward at the moment.

Any published labour policy isn't worth the paper it's written on when the leader refuses to abide by the cabinets decision.

s this the way of the far left? So wrapped up in their ideology, they are completely unable to see the bigger picture

Yes, spot on

Dear leader?

Labour was mauled at the polls in Scotland because the SNP had more of a leftist platform. Labour have reaped the rewards of moving to the centre-right under Blair.

The only option Labour had in order to remain relevant was to shift to the left IMHO.

It's a reshuffle.
What did you expect?

Is this the way of the far left? So wrapped up in their ideology, they are completely unable to see the bigger picture

To be fair, when you look at the more right leaning Blaire opposition, they're just as bad. Its six of one, and half a dozen of the other. The Tories, the country, anything really seems secondary to them having a fight with each other. Good job theres nowt important to worry about eh?

Its all bit...

Indeed, binners.

This, from the Staggers, was a pretty good summary
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/10/labour-s-warring-factions-who-do-they-include-and-what-are-they-fighting

Is there any point to it any more? Should it just be put out of its misery?

There wasn't any point to it. Sadly the people made this happen are still strong and dominant in the parliamentary party, and they're doing their damndest to make sure it continues not having any point to it. This battle will play out for a while yet so patience is required I reckon.

It's exactly the same ideological battle all parties have.

Sadly, JC has plenty of form in promoting some of the nonsense that I would have hoped the old school left had ditched by now.
Being a leftie doesn't mean accepting the whole package.
I wanted a proper debate.
We're not going to get one.
Independent thought is to be discouraged.

Gutted does not describe it.

Corbyn isn’t the cause of all of this; he’s simply a catalyst that’s bringing out something that’s been building up for years.

Under Blair’s reign, many, many new MPs were created who, obviously, had a Blair outlook and, largely, it didn't match the outlook of most members of the party. Now it is really starting to show.

Labour need to deal with this, regardless of what happens with Corbyn. Personally, I’d like to see the party split and each component be more focussed. I can see a situation where the same happens to the Conservatives, too, around Europe. This *might* finally lead to proper electoral reform…

Rachel

I forget who it was, but someone on Radio 4 made a very good point this morning - it's our screwed up FPTP electoral system system that leads to all this. It'd be much better if the Labour party split into say the Socialists and the Social Democrats - and for that matter the Tories could split into a soft pro-Europe right-wing party and a hard right party.

But under our system, that can't happen because either party then has no chance of winning anything. So parties have to stay together, and waste loads of time on infighting.

Meanwhile, the state of the Labour party is best summed up like this:

we don't have an opposition at the moment which is unhealthy regardless of your political leanings. The Labour party hasn't produced a credible candidate. Corbyn won't make the concessions necessary to be taken seriously.

amen ben. in effect parties should be mini referenda vehicles.

The conservatives aren't really any better - each party has a lightning rod issue that has the capacity to tear it apart. The labour party has several 🙂

Sure I just wrote that…

Rachel

It's just a reshuffle, it seems quite a few people I (and the majority of the public) am not aware of have been moved or resigned from front bench positions, in response to the PLP wanting a less rightwing labour party.
Corbs seems to have handled it badly, though, hopefully the dust will settle in time to watch torries whom the public have heard of do the same over Europe come the referendum if that ever happens...

[i]The conservatives aren't really any better - each party has a lightning rod issue that has the capacity to tear it apart.[/i]

Nah...apart from some misgivings about how we deal with the European issues, the Tories are pretty well together in the main.

Sure I just wrote that…

I didn't see your post, sorry, I was busy googling Simpson clips 😀

Independent thought is to be discouraged.

There's a huge difference between free-thinking/open debate and outright sustained, unthinking opposition. Since JC was elected leader his opponents in the PLP have done nothing but undermine, plot and attack him on all fronts, using (and manufacturing) every opportunity at their disposal. It's hardly a surprise that he's moved to put a lid on it. Of course now they'll trot out the 'hard left dictator' line, which has already been mentioned on this thread. Seems simple to me that the line is the point at which labour members spend more time and effort attacking the leadership than they do the tories. When that line is crossed, then action by the leadership is completely justified.

Is this the way of the far left? So wrapped up in their ideology, they are completely unable to see the bigger picture?

JC is the far left? Collectivism, gulags, that sort of thing?

Hyperbole aside, anyone who thinks that Corbyn is a useless dinosaur should consider just how useless the other candidates were, given the election result.

we don't have an opposition at the moment which is unhealthy regardless of your political leanings. The Labour party hasn't produced a credible candidate. Corbyn won't make the concessions necessary to be taken seriously.

On the contrary, Corbyn could well be toughening up from his "all inclusive" policy. The Syrian air strikes debate was a shambles, His opposition call it a revenge reshuffle, but he has simply learnt a lesson.

Which I might add still won't make him a proper leader.

Meanwhile, the tories who also don't have a proper leader, have "done a Labour" over Europe. Its going to get very messy.

Nah...apart from some misgivings about how we deal with the European issues, the Tories are pretty well together in the main.

😆

Didn't seem to be too much 'opposition' before corbyn came along. Utterly faceless bland politicians whose policies had nothing to differentiate from one another. Bollox to 'the middle ground', where was the opposition to privatising each and every industry we've ever once may have had..? 'Labour' died long ago thanks to Blair and his acolytes. At least corbyn has his principles. At least he is left wing. At least he won't cowtow to the Blairites who infest the parliamentary labour party.

And there is a lot of corbyns views I don't share. Trident, Europe etc.

It's just a reshuffle, it seems quite a few people I (and the majority of the public) am not aware of have been moved or resigned from front bench positions, in response to the PLP wanting a less rightwing labour party.

Not sure the PLP wants a less rightwing party. The bulk of the PLP is right wing, and anti-Corbyn. It's the general membership that may or may not want this - that's the only mandate Corbyn has.

I can see why Corbyn has done it - he wants some more control over policy, but the marvellous thing is how he can appear both petty and weak at the same time, by canning some small fry while backing away from Benn.

Can't see it getting any better - the PLP will just be looking for any opportunity to undermine him, regardless of the wishes of Labour Party members.

Not sure the PLP wants a less rightwing party. The bulk of the PLP is right wing, and anti-Corbyn. It's the general membership that may or may not want this - that's the only mandate Corbyn has.

This is the nub of the problem, he's one of handful on non Blairites in a party full of Blairites. The fact the bulk of the membership support Corbyn doesn't change who the MPs are (yet).

Labour was mauled at the polls in Scotland because the SNP had more of a leftist platform.

😀 No really!

Democracy requires and effective opposition and this is lacking now and getting worse. The only good thing (?) for Labour supporters is that the Tories will self-harm over Europe (esp as they feel less threatened by Labour). All a bloody mess.

And dear Nicola already winding up the independence rhetoric to distract attention from their record in power.

Politics as awful as it is enthralling!

The EU referendum may even fall below the Scottish independence referendum in terms of mis-information and deceit 🙁

Poor old Jezza was caught between the proverbial rock and hard place re Benn. But this use of twitter is an indication of how appalling the whole thing has become 🙁

It'd be much better if the Labour party split into say the Socialists and the Social Democrats

Well, it worked so well in 1981...

It's just a reshuffle

like you do with deckchairs, yeah?

Ref tories and Europe - for decades this was a hugely divisive issue within the party - however the referendum entirely removes the problem, whoever people campaign for, the public makes the final decision, and everyone agrees that whatever the public decides, is the settled outcome, therefore nobody loses out.

It's all well and good having a far/proper left party but it's rock all use if they don't get elected, no?
Otherwise all you have is a noisy opposition.

but it's rock all use if they don't get elected, no?

SShh!

As a non-socialist, I thought Corbyn would be a breath of fresh air in politics. A wake up call for all sides to start having principles, whichever end of the spectrum they are on.

To be getting rid of people for disagreeing with you, having voted against your own party over 500 times as a backbencher(iirc), makes him look either a hypocritical twit or a power crazed loon

he's one of handful on non Blairites in a party full of Blairites.

Makes you wonder if he's in the wrong party then?

On a similar note what I don't like about Corbyn and his lot is that he is happy to slag off Blair's legacy now, yet he benefited from it, by being part of Labour through those popular years.

Oh look another right whinge circle jerk.

He hasn't got rid of people for disagreeing with him, the people who have gone are the ones who questioned his leadership ability and the direction of the party. Hopefully they got rid of the 'source' who chats shit after every shadow cabinet meeting.

To be getting rid of people for disagreeing with you, having voted against your own party over 500 times as a backbencher(iirc), makes him look either a hypocritical twit or a power crazed loon

Hes not disappearing them though he's just sending them to the back benches where they can happily vote against the party line without corbs getting a rogering from the press.over splits in a s cabinet

Mistake not getting shot of Benn, then half the PLP still haven't got what's going on with their party actually being reclaimed by real folk who do believe Corbyn is a breath of fresh air. However if he isn't strong with these ass hats, he could very soon run out of favour.

This makes me laugh,

John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor and Jeremy Corbyn’s closest ally in the shadow cabinet, has said that three shadow ministers who resigned today were all from a “narrow rightwing clique”.

If that's the case why did Corbyn appoint them? After all Corbyn has been in the party since the 80's so unless he was sound asleep surely he knew what bent of politics they leaned too?

To appease the plp I'd have thought. Only now has he realised how wrong he was.

Mistake not getting shot of Benn

Corbyn's position is too weak to get rid of Benn, there would be open warfare within the party. Don't forget about Tom Watson in all of this, he holds a decent chunk of power, as he was voted by the party as deputy.

To be getting rid of people for disagreeing with you, having voted against your own party over 500 times as a backbencher(iirc), makes him look either a hypocritical twit or a power crazed loon

The reality is ever single leader surrounds themselves with people who share their vision and /or toe the line. Its nothing unusual from corbym its just another od for the haterz to beat him for doing what every single leader has done and will do.

Corbin really needs backing up by local labour branches deselecting rebellious MPs, otherwise he's in a no win situation.

deselecting rebellious MPs

So if an MP upholds official party policy on Trident (or another point of policy from the manifesto on which the public elected them a few months ago) in opposition to new party leader policy on Trident - should they be sacked or protected?

SO you are asking that if after failing to win a mandate at an election and then electing a new leader with new policies, that you are unable to support, should you remain that parties candidate in future elections?
Gosh this is a rather tricky one to work out.

If an MP can't understand that a Cabinet position (shadow or otherwise) means he has to behave and not just try and cause as much trouble as possible, then yes he should be de-selected (IMO). He's putting his (or her) ego before that of the party.

I thought that there's only been one by-election since Corbyn has been made leader, and that Labour did really well?

Hasn't their membership gone up by a lot as well?

So if an MP upholds official party policy on Trident (or another point of policy from the manifesto on which the public elected them a few months ago) in opposition to new party leader policy on Trident - should they be sacked or protected?

Dunno, but if you publically side with with your party leader's opponents, including the leader of the opposing party, then you must expect some negative consequences.

The night of the short teaspoons was a bit of a let down really

Still we have moved from "broad church" to "loyally" with remarkable rapidly. I hope those who believed the "as big a tent as possible" narrative are not too disappointed. Same old dirty politics, why would it be any different???

Oh look another right whinge circle jerk.

he conservatives aren't really any better - each party has a lightning rod issue that has the capacity to tear it apart.

Nah...apart from some misgivings about how we deal with the European issues, the Tories are pretty well together in the main.

Personally speaking, I'm [i]highly[/i] concerned about the recent Tory developments on Europe. I was hoping for a coherent stance (which agrees with my own opinion, obviously 🙂 )

The reality is ever single leader surrounds themselves with people who share their vision and /or toe the line. Its nothing unusual from corbym

What about the new politics we were promised? 😥

Ed Milliband (deffo left wing) got beat by Dave.....

he was barely left wing and he was not beaten because he was a rabid lefty he was beaten because he was ed milliband No one could be enthused by him.
Similarly Blair did not win [ initially] because he was right wing the tories were largely unelectable and John SMith would have won as well

I agree its questionable as to whether a more left wing labour party can motivate folk and win but only time will tell.

Vote Labour at your peril as they want to hand over ALL powers to EUSSR to become a zombie maggot state.

Again, you hear it from me first, I told you so and I see you coming ... 😆

Well, it worked so well in 1981...

Missed the rest of my post, then? 😉

The reason it didn't work in 1981 was that the electoral system doesn't allow for more than two main parties.

Sure I just wrote that…
Rachel

What about the new politics we were promised?

I don't think we were ever promised that it was OK for Labour shadow cabinet MPs to side with Cameron against the party leader.

I don't think we were ever promised that it was OK for Labour shadow cabinet MPs to side with Cameron against the party leader.

You understand the concepts of whipped vs free votes?

Corbyns current reaction is like the result that normally comes after asking your Mrs if you can buy a new bike, and being told "it's your money, do what you want"

You understand the concepts of whipped vs free votes?

I was not referring to that. I had more in mind McFadden's rhetorical "question" about terrorists at PMQ after Paris, as well as Eagle's support for the General (?) who pronounced that Corbyn was a threat to security.

I wonder if it's a function of our two party system that creates all this binary thinking.

But just one point: the Conservative party has been going through this for years over Europe - look at the rise of UKIP and the fact we're going to have an in-out referendum on EU membership with free campaigning in the cabinet all because the various Conservative leaders (not least Cameron, as it's on his watch) haven't sorted out this in-fighting.

But we've all become normalised to this, so Labour's current troubles are today's news.

Labour party elites always give me the impression as a group of people taking the working class people for a joy ride without them knowing ... 😮

Things are very different now than they were in the eighties or even in Blairs 90's, the expenses scandal, the banking scandal, the global corporate culture that pervades all walks of life, the perception of deceipt by Clegg and the coilition, the failure of UKIP (by those that wanted change rather than any right wing policies and racial issues) Corbyn is viewed by the same slightly not normally political group as someone more in touch with the real world. Even the painting of him and this PLP nightmare by the media as chaotic is playing into his hands if he did but realise it, he is stronger than most realise.

We live in a world where we can't trust either what we're told, or what we read, it's pretty much Global Capitolist Feudalism where even the weather forecasts are bent to further profit and speculation by a so obviously manipulated media, but we now have the reality of social media and the power for anarchy contained therein.

If this guy were allowed to fail or the PLP made the serious error not to leave him in place for at least one election there would be uproar and the Labour Party would never recover. We are long overdue a swing to the left, the pendulum has never quite swung far enough to purge the ghastly for profit only world we suffer.

Millions dying in the pursuit of OIL ffs The Planet being raped and destroyed for profit, quite literally destorying our own habitat for the same short term profit that the city bastards consider when closing our industry and piling thousands onto the scrap heap whilst destroying entire societies, we're all sick of it, many many many more folk than the PLP realise. If they'd only sort a green agenda as well they could romp home, hopefully in time to stop the frakking catastrophe.

Sorry about the rant, I'm a bit touchy about all this, wont happen again just needed to get it out.

There simply needs to be turmoil in the labour party for a few years. If there isn't, the party isn't changing.

Imo all the news channels are doing, by portraying these current issues negatively, is showing up their bias.

I look forward to more of it. 🙂

My point stands. The most successful period of Labour power in the last few decades came courtesy of Blair and his mates, who are roundly by labour supporters thought to be not left wing.

It doesn't necessarily follow that the only way the Labour Party can get elected is to be more Tory than Tory (which was the Blair strategy).

Ah yes the revisionist history where labour under Blair were always more Tory than the Tories. No they weren't.

The importance of of a left wing labour party isn't just to be elected, although, obviously, that's ultimately the goal. It's also about stopping the centre line of politics from going further and further to the right.

We need proper opposition, it's been incredibly weak for the last 6 years.

he was barely left wing

It doesn't necessarily follow that the only way the Labour Party can get elected is to be more Tory than Tory (which was the Blair strategy).

Didn't seem to be too much 'opposition' before corbyn came along. Utterly faceless bland politicians whose policies had nothing to differentiate from one another. Bollox to 'the middle ground', where was the opposition to privatising each and every industry we've ever once may have had..? 'Labour' died long ago thanks to Blair and his acolytes. At least corbyn has his principles. At least he is left wing. At least he won't cowtow to the Blairites who infest the parliamentary labour party.

And there is a lot of corbyns views I don't share. Trident, Europe etc.

It's not often I agree with lodderik but on this occasion he's spot on. Corbyn is a rare creature in that he is a politician who believes in what he stands for rather than shape-shifting to fit popular opinion. Are you listening Burnham?

The importance of of a left wing labour party isn't just to be elected, although, obviously, that's ultimately the goal. It's also about stopping the centre line of politics from going further and further to the right.

We need proper opposition, it's been incredibly weak for the last 6 years.

This exactly! Corbyn may not be "electable" to the majority but he will provide a credible opposition to Hameron and Gidiot, holding them to account for what they are doing. If unprincipled arseholes from the Bliar era could only realise this we may be able to curb some of their worst excesses. Sadly this won;t happen because they all want to be in charge.

Red Ed was considerably more left wing than Tony.

Ed Milliband is solely responsible for the state that the Labour party is in now. A clueless halfwit with no policies, no presence and no ****ing idea!

I was prepared to pay £3 for this entirely predictable mess. Predicted by pretty much the entire Labour hierarchy. To answer Binner's intial point yup Cameron, Sturgeon and especially Farron are bery happy right now. Corbyn's legacy will be to consign hard left poltics fringes for the foreseeable future, 20 years at least.

@footflaps deselecting means they don't stand for Labour in 2020 GE, a time by which Corbyn will be long gone. There is nothing any anti-Corbyn MP has done which could lead to a by-election.

McFadden cares about the Labour party and its supporters and well knows that without being elected to government its all just shouting in the dark. You might argue his intervention was a little aggressive or disloyal bit when the leader (and Stop the War) have spouted such complete nonsense about the causes of the attacks in Paris it is understandable he felt it was his duty to speak up. Corbyn was well and truely skewered over this vote, in the wake of the Bataclan attacks with 130 dead and a further 250 people with gunshot wounds there was only ever going to be one result. At this point and on his flagship issue he was sat in Parliament as "leader" whilst being totally eclipsed by Benn.

Its my view that the more leftish old-Labour under Corbyn will make zero in-roads in the Scottish election. Its my belief the rise of the SNP at the GE was due to Yes voters switching from Labour to the SNP under the relentless SNP messaging that Labour had sided with the Tories. Together with the much closer than expected yes/no 55/45 result.

I personally think it will be at this point that Corbyn is ousted, the SNP delivering the coup-de-grace

Red Ed was [s]considerably[/s]barely more left wing than Tony.

I was prepared to pay £3 for this entirely predictable mess

It doesn't necessarily follow that the only way the Labour Party can get elected is to be more Tory than Tory (which was the Blair strategy)

YOu are as principled as you are wise.

My position, had I paid the £3, would have been I genuinely wanted the country to witness what a left wing agenda looks like in practice. I've no doubt Corbyn had many £3 votes from "non-traditional" lefties 😉

I've no doubt Corbyn had many £3 votes from "non-traditional" lefties

Like me 😆

Blair moved the centre of politics to the right. Brown and Milliband should've had the courage to try and move it back towards the centre. As it was they had no point of difference from the Tories except they were at the helm when the financial crash happened.

The Blairites who predicted this mess are causing it with the non-stop criticism of Corbyn, comment pieces on how he is doomed to fail etc. Blairites lost the last 2 elections ffs do they want another go? With Yvette Cooper?

Is this the way of the far left?

Its my view that the more leftish old-Labour under Corbyn will make zero in-roads in the Scottish election. Its my belief the rise of the SNP at the GE was due to Yes voters switching from Labour to the SNP under the relentless SNP messaging that Labour had sided with the Tories. Together with the much closer than expected yes/no 55/45 result.

Yes, it was the referendum which killed Labour in Scotland - though it had been dying for a decade. Corbyn won't save them - the opinion of people I talk to at least is he's a decent guy, but Scotland has moved on from UK-wide political parties. Labour's only hope in Scotland is to declare independence.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/01/micawber-syndrome-or-why-labour-mps-must-depose-jeremy-corbyn-now

FYI 😉

I'd quite like labour to stop falling apart and offer some proper opposition and a proper choice to the electorate and a positive vision for the future.
If the tories also self destruct over Europe then we're properly screwed. We're in a major debt crisis which needs expertise and attention to get out of. Self indulgent infighting is not what we need right now

brooess - Member
I'd quite like labour to stop falling apart and offer some proper opposition and a proper choice to the electorate and a positive vision for the future.

For me any party that becomes the poodle of EUSSR ZM state should fall apart.

Labour is also heading for destruction too with their ZM behaviour wanting to be full member of EUSSR. But the ones that will suffer most will be the working class Labour voters who I wonder if they truly know the implication of EUSSR.

😯