[Closed] The Kafkaesque world of HMRC. You couldn't make it up content.

Call HMRC direct, large chance that they've got nothing to do with HMRC.

My advice:

do everything in writing and deal directly with HMRC re: what it's all about.

for now write to debt collectors explaining you have no intention of paying a bill for which they are unable to provide supporting evidence, that you are taking it up with HMRC directly to resolve and that until evidence of what is being requested and why is provided by hmrc that you will treat any further approaches by the debt collectors as harassment.

[I am not a lawyer or a tax adviser]

What's the agency called?

Was it a premium phoneline?

Sounds like a scam. Anyone legitimately trying to collect a debt, either of their own or on behalf of someone else, would be able to give you information about what it is for.

The agency is called Advantis, and he also informed me that a legal action has been put in motion against me which now can't be stopped, so I have to pay the bill, then try and claim it back from HMRC if I believe it to be wrong. Despite not having any information regarding what it's for!

Advantis Credit Ltd
Apex Credit Management Ltd
Bluestone Credit Management Ltd (formerly named Close Credit Management Ltd)
Commercial Collection Services Ltd
Commercial Credit Services Group
Credit Solutions Ltd
Direct Legal and Collections
drydensfairfax solicitors
Equita Ltd
Fredrickson International Ltd
akinika Debt Recovery Ltd (formerly known as iQor Recovery Services Ltd)
Rossendales Ltd

These are the Agencies that HMRC use.

If it's not one of those.

Tell them to do one.

(Edit- crossed posts - seems legit then ?)

I've just been TUPE'd (employment transferred) to another company.

I (and all other employees) had a revised coding notice yesterday.

I now have zero tax allowance, my estimated earnings for the year are exactly twice what they were, and they want payment for additional tax of £3,100.

Doesn't take rocket science to work out that one hand is adding the new employment while the other is failing to register a stop to the old (yes they've had a P45 for that). 🙄

However, a call to HMRC and a lovely chat with first their creepy voice recognition auto system and then a real person (and only ten minutes on hold) has got it sorted (apparently - I'll reserve judgement on that until 5 April 2014 at least).

OP - do give them a call and hopefully all will become clear

The agency is called Advantis, and he also informed me that a legal action has been put in motion against me which now can't be stopped,

That must be complete bollocks? Why can't it be stopped?

Debt collection agency?

File it in the bin!

a legal action has been put in motion against me which now can't be stopped

Then sit back and await court papers which won't arrive

Deal only with HMRC. Don't open the door to anyone. 😯

They could be fishing. I had a debt collection agency on my tail a few yrs back. I short shifted them pretty quickly. Bottom line is if there is an outstanding debt the agency gets the phone book out and hits anyone / everyone with the same name. Linky below of the HMRC authorised debt collectors, if they aint on the list don't worry about it. Sounds like a fishing / scam to me

[url= http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/payinghmrc/debtcollectors/ ]HMRC Debt Collectors[/url]

Increasingly stinky...

ninfan - Member
Debt collection agency?

File it in the bin!

Certainly not the best idea.

Lifer - Bailiff, yes, jump all over it, letter from HMRC, yes, jump all over it. court papers, yes, jump all over it.

debt collection agency - its nothing more than a letter asking for money.

I tried phoning them yesterday but lost the will to live twice over before speaking to anyone and gave up.

binners,

I work for a company that works very closely with HMRC. I would say, almost definitely that this is a scam.

have you had contact with HMRC about this debt in the past?

"So you'd like to legally dispute the outstanding balance sir?"

You would normally have some sort of contact with HMRC before it goes to a debt collection agency.

Not much use with a letter, but this is their advice if someone turns up on your doorstep:

[i]However, when faced with an unknown caller on the doorstep, our customers may still be concerned. To provide a safeguard against bogus callers in these situations, HMRC has introduced a new Field Force Verification Helpline, so that a customer can easily check whether or not a caller on their doorstep claiming to be from HMRC is, in fact, genuine.

To access the helpline, customers should follow these simple steps:
• Ask to see the Collector's photo ID
• Make a note of the ID number on the photo ID
• call 0300 200 3862
• Provide HMRC with the ID number you've noted

Our operators will then be able to confirm to you whether or not your caller is genuinely an HMRC Collector.
[/i]

I had a tax demand for £582 last week. I called to query it and the nice man cheerfully explained 'Oh, we didn't have a figure for ABC so we take a guess and wait for people to challenge it.' Today I received a cheque for £79. Funny old system.

I once got a demand for the vat rebate we were owed, serously i kid you not!!

I got fed up with the time and effort it had taken me (which meant time away from working on my business) trying to challenge a £1300 debt they claimed I owed (a default that I accept I made but with very strong mitigating circumstances). So, after twice challenging them and trying to get a hearing a further two times (each time they lost all the paperwork, despite the second lot being sent electronically and was receipted) that I eventually just paid it to get them off my back and stop the sleepless nights when getting threatening letters from them about debt collection agencies etc.

I got a call from Tax Credits folk last month. Number withheld. They asked me for my details so they could confirm I was the right person. I in turn asked them for say my NI number so I could confirm they were kosher. As above, they cheerfully said that was one of the questions /they/ would ask /me/ ::)

Ended up in a well meaning stand-off, I took the guys name and called the phone number on latest letter..

a legal action could be pretty meaningless but a court action should include a letter before action setting out in some detail how and why you owe the cash followed by a statement of claim setting out the same. Also if you dispute the debt the debt collection agency have no power to take it further it is for HMRC to pursue it .

I would write to them stating that you dispute the debt and do not accept owing any money to HMRC and asking them to provide full details of the alleged claim.

stever - Member

I had a tax demand for £582 last week. I called to query it and the nice man cheerfully explained 'Oh, we didn't have a figure for ABC so we take a guess and wait for people to challenge it.

I got "You owe us a bag of money" "Oh OK, why? I'm paye so I shouldn't do and the numbers seem to add up" "It's for your jobseeker's allowance" "Chief, I paid you a sack of tax from my actual job last year, as you know, so how could I have jobseekers' allowance?" "Yeah, that's weird. Tell you what, send us the P60 from your jobseekers' allowance..." "The jobseekers allowance I don't get? You don't get a P60 for imaginary income".

So it turns out there's no onus on them to prove income, it's up to me to disprove it, using documentation that doesn't exist.

This thread needs some input from 1984ishere

Shambles really. It could be a scam but perhaps not.

I suspect the debt collection agency has been passed a name and address and is trying to track the person down but being very lazy about it. They've found your name / address somewhere (electoral register) and have written to you.

I would write to them saying you have had no correspondence from hmrc and all your tax is up to date. The demand made is in error. Also note that they have failed to provide any details or evidence as to what this debt is for.

Even if they do continue the legal process just keep writing back and If necessary go along to court. This will be thrown out.

Cheers for the advice all! Looks like I need to fire a couple of letters off this afternoon. I certainly don't owe them £400. But I've had the pleasure of dealing with HMRC in the past and they must surely be the most incompetent organisation in the country! It's no wonder the corporates run rings round them!

[i]But I've had the pleasure of dealing with HMRC in the past and they must surely be the most incompetent organisation in the country![/i]

Not really, but they're told what to do by the Govt, so... - and if it's anything like I'm picking up at the moment (in the NHS); new policy often contradicts previous policy, plus often new policies have to be enacted before the systems are ready etc etc.

"So you'd like to legally dispute the outstanding balance sir?"

Cheey ****ers. That's their way of getting you involved in protracted nonsense as a tactic to make you back down.

Tell 'em to Foxtrot Oscar.

binners - Member

they must surely be the most incompetent organisation in the country!

You, sir, have never dealt with the Student Loans Company.

You, sir, have never dealt with the Student Loans Company.

they must surely be the most incompetent organisation in the country!

You, sir, have never dealt with the Student Loans Company.

I'm anti privatisation, but DVLA and HRMC are two organisations I would LOVE to see privatised. They are so shockingly bad it's just not funny,

On the upside, if this IS a scam, you could have a lot of fun with it...

I don 't think it is Wopster. It's for real. The guy on the phone did admit that it was absolutely absurd that he couldn't give me any information, despite having it in front of him. But they are the guidelines they have from HMRC. Madness I tell thee!

Aye, that sounds like HMRC and the muppets they employ.
I had HMRC after me for 34p via a credit agency for one year - despite the previous year them over charging me £3.4k on tax.
As said, do it in writing so that it is recorded (I tried phone, and you just go round in circles).
Write to agency and say you are dealing with HMRC direct.
Write to HMRC and ask for a statement of any outstanding tax.
Be prepared for a few months/years hassle...

Matt - I used to have my own business so have had the dubious pleasure, over a number of years, of dealing with the monkeys that HMRC employ. I'll say one thing for them. They're consistent. Consistently useless! Guaranteed to bugger up your tax every quarter. And after days wasted on the phone trying to sort it out, inevitably wrong!

But even by their usual Laurel and Hardy-esque standards, today has been quite surreal

Yep, DVLA and SLC most definitely outrank HMRC in terms of incompetence.

And Scottish Power

I think HMRC are 'outsourcing' some debt collection so the quality of the service is with the private contractor however you clearly should be aware of the debt. If you're not then that suggests potential error or similar so contact them directly. Depending on where you are in the UK you may need to use the phone to do this as enquiry centres are being closed/under review.

"they're made to look like professionals when compared to the DVLA, that's for sure!"
there is a manager at DVLA swansea that has the same name as me, when sorting out an issue the other the year that really added to the fun.
One guy i was put through to on the phone thought he was talking to their paul and was quite rude about the customer paul/me (can't blame him) that was a interesting call.

Trying dealing with 3mobile. Got a problem with your internet connection? The helpline guy immediately offers you a new additional contract and maybe one for your partner Sir. It is the best deal Sir.

The fact is HMRC is seriously understaffed, morale is flatlining and it aint getting better.The new staff appraisal figure has to find 10% of staff as under performing each year whether they are or not. Great motivator. Current staffing is on target for 56000 full time staff. Meanwhile the dutch tax authority which deals with similar stuff as hmrc - employs 30000 staff for a population of 16 million.

Guess which tax authority is the more successful and efficient ?

Trying dealing with 3mobile. Got a problem with your internet connection? The helpline guy immediately offers you a new additional contract and maybe one for your partner Sir. It is the best deal Sir.

When I told them that I was emigrating they still didn't see that as reason enough to close my account. Clueless.

I've dealt with HMRC, DVLA and SLC a handful of times, and they were all perfectly helpful and efficient, esp DVLA.

Ha try Npower.

I once had a tenant move out on 31st month, new tenant moved in 24hrs later.

I took meter readings on exit and entry (they were the same).
I wrote both exit and entry letters for both tenants with meter readings and sent to Npower.
They started sending me bills for £400, then £700 for the void period (24hrs, zero usage).

I sent tenancy contracts, pictures of meter readings, copies of letters, letters from tenants verifying everything. Etc.

I even started sending registered post correspondence including copies of the final bill and new customer bills that used my provided meter readings, and further bills from new tenant that acknowledged payment.

They ignored all this and continued to threaten legal action, followed by court summons.

By which point I was keen to go to court just to shove it up Npowers arse.

A week or so after court summons I got a letter from their solicitor
saying as it was obvious that I would lose under the underwhelming weight of evidence (or some shit like that I can't remember exactly but it was brazen solicitor speak) and outlining reduced terms if I paid up now rather than go to court.

I called the solicitors, got through to an actual solicitor and had a frank discussion about what evidence they had, vs what evidence I had. She admitted that they had no evidence other than an estimate, and that she had not seen any correspondence from me at all.

I offered to email scanned copies of everything for her perusal, which she was keen for.

I heard nothing until a week later a letter from the courts saying case closed/ended (or something) due to early settlement.

AND

South West Water did almost exactly the same thing 2 years later, but it was worse because I had actually overpaid by about 2k..

I've dealt with HMRC, DVLA and SLC a handful of times, and they were all perfectly helpful and efficient, esp DVLA.

Were you on drugs at the time?

I think you may have been transported into some sort of parallel dimension there konabunny. Glad to see you made it back ok though

.The new staff appraisal figure has to find 10% of staff as under performing each year whether they are or not. Great motivator.

from my experiences of HRMC that really shouldnt be too hard...

Had a similar situation with the AA when I discovered I was paying for my sister's membership. Phoned them and was told they couldn't discuss it because of data protection it not being my membership, could they talk to my sister. Explained she lived 20 miles away so no. My sister then phoned them and was told they couldn't discuss it because of data protection because it wasn't her bank account. Eventually resolved it by explaining to them that taking money from someones bank account without authorisation is theft and I as they were doing nothing to resolve it I was going to the police (It was amazing how quickly things got resolved).

The next year exactly the same thing happened when they took money out of my account for my other sister's membership (She only lived 10 miles away). Again it was only resolved after threats of the police.

I'm not in the AA anymore.

I've dealt with HMRC, DVLA and SLC a handful of times, and they were all perfectly helpful and efficient, esp DVLA.

Me too. And Three.

The claim that HMRC is understaffed is a nice story - it has almost as many staff as the US Inland Revenue Service but for a working population of only c31 million people compared to the 140m people in active employment in the USA.

HMRC is pretty hopeless, as above it's no surprise companies can rings round them. The fact is its an understaffed and materially under budgeted department. It's an obvious one where more investment would lead to more revenue but that seems to be beyond the understanding of all governments right or left.

I've dealt with hmrc many times, they are polite and helpful, they are doing their best with what they have.

HMRC are cute, friendly, helpful and ever so efficient compared to the IRS...

.The new staff appraisal figure has to find 10% of staff as under performing each year whether they are or not. Great motivator.

Someone needs to learn about regression to the mean.

The claim that HMRC is understaffed is a nice story - it has almost as many staff as the US Inland Revenue Service but for a working population of only c31 million people compared to the 140m people in active employment in the USA.

Federal taxes or state taxes? You'd imagine Federal taxes might need less people as a lot of taxation is done by states, is it not?

I believe there was some research showing that every pound spent on HMRC staff employed to chase taxes made at least double that amount back - so yes it is understaffed.

With half of the employees removed from HMRC as a result of politically driven dogma and many functions (like debt collection) farmed out to the disjointed and disconnected private sector, how could any organisation cope well? If the OP's demand had actually come from HMRC, he could have approached them directly to establish what it's for. With this work privatised, an extra layer of beaurocracy has been added. Madness. The staff at ground level in HMRC are not the problem, it's the idiotic political masters and the yes people parachuted in to run the organisation. Just like the DVLA, DWP, NHS...