[Closed] The Guardian and Labour. Out of Love with the Euro

EU =/= €

And the end of the quote is quite important:

Alexander therefore concludes: "For those of us who see Britain's national interest as best served within the European Union, a defence of the status quo simply isn't good enough." [b]The UK should, in his view, have two goals: extending the single market into services, the digital economy and energy; and to realise Europe amplifies the UK'S voice on a world stage dominated by America and China.[/b]

3/10

So you expect Hague to apologise based on 2 guardian articles?
Unlikely, I doubt he reads it.

I think you'll find that your average Guardian reader wanted us in the Euro so they wouldn't have to change currency when they flew to Tuscany for their Olive oil sampling and Chianti Vineyard tours 😉

A single common currency can only work with fiscal union. Even then the restrictions to free movement of labour will still constrict a system. In the long term it simply cannot work as we have too many barriers unlike the united states. Language and culture being the two significant factors that we cannot control.

monetary union is – and always was – rotten economics.

I thought that was a peach of a statement from the economics editor of the Guardian to slide out, but somehow fail to acknowledge that they had been banging on about xenophobic Little Englander Eurosceptics for 15yrs. Shameless.

still a load of wishful thinking guys - they Euro will still be there in much the same form for a long time to come

still a load of wishful thinking guys - they Euro will still be there in much the same form for a long time to come

Not according to the Guardian.

TJ what would it take for you to to admit "mmmmm maybe you guys have got a point."?

If yo had a point?

Seriously its so funny watching people so desperate for the euro to fail wittering on about it.

It will not an cannot fail, it is not an experiment - it is the reality

what would it take for you to to admit "mmmmm maybe you guys have got a point."

A blow to the (ill protected, helmet covered) head.

TJ what would it take for you to to admit "mmmmm maybe you guys have got a point."?

Is that [i]all[/i] that's important to you. Good to see you're reading the Guardian though. Good journalism is great innit? What did you read before today's revelation?

I think TJ's right. They'll do everything possible to keep it together. As the alternative doesn't stand comprehension. At some point it might collapse. But by that point it'll all be academic anyway. As we'll probably be in the middle of such a monumental economic shitstorm we'll be selling our houses for a can of Tesco Value Beans, and clubbing each other to death with human bones

Interesting article in the Observer yesterday saying the best way out of the present crisis wouldn't be for Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Italy or Spain to leave, but instead for Germany to walk away.

The economic benefits would be immediately felt by everyone else in the Eurozone, and Germany would have to deal a European economic system not geared exclusively towards its own interests. An interesting thought

Going back to the original point. The labour party (well.... Gordon Brown) were never going to take us into the Euro in a million years!

I'm a subscriber thanks

It will not an cannot fail, it is not an experiment - it is the reality

And what would you count as failure tj?

I can see you still arguing the toss if most of the participants left the euro, and the currency ended up as the deutschmark by another name. 🙂

It may survive or it may not. I doubt it will be in its current form and membership if that is the case however.

No one will leave it - its not going to happen.

mcboo appears to be unacquainted with the facts:

1. The Guardian supported Labour from 1997 to 2010
2. Labour didn't take us into the Euro

supported labour? - don't you mean the lib dems?

supported labour? - don't you mean the lib dems?

Surely the question is will any form of Democracy survive the Euro (ists)

The Guardian only briefly flirted with the Lib Dems immediately prior to the last election

Like everyone else who voted Lib Dem they soon found themselves pretty embarrassed by the fact that they'd inadvertently supported the paramilitary wing of the Tory Party, putting them in power. D'OH!!!!

You know this TJ, as you live next door to Polly Toynbee 😉

Edit: And I agree with IanW - The present Euro-federalists are the most anti-democratic bunch on the planet. At least with the Chinese, you know you're getting a dictatorship

No one will leave it - its not going to happen.

la la la ...la la la.....

I thought that was a peach of a statement from the economics editor of the Guardian to slide out, but somehow fail to acknowledge that they had been banging on about xenophobic Little Englander Eurosceptics for 15yrs. Shameless.

What a ridiculous conclusion. The Eurosceptic wing of the Tory Party is very much inhabited by "xenophobic Little Englanders", saying so, doesn't automatically make you pro-single currency, or even necessarily a Europhile.

It's perhaps worth remembering that it a [i]Tory Party[/i] leader, and Prime Minister, who famously described Eurosceptics within the Tory Party as "bastards" ...... not the Guardian. I don't think he's ever apologised for that.

And I say all that as someone who is more than just "sceptical" of the EU, I'm opposed to it. Unlike previous Tory Prime Ministers, including Heath, Thatcher, and Major.

The guardian supported the Lib dems right from the SDP days. always has done.

Sorry Uncle Jezza. You're wrong on this. The Guardian backed Nu Labour all the way from John Smith, to jumping ship before the last election, Sun-style. They saw that even they couldn't support Gordon Brown for re-election and expect anyone to read their political opinions without s****ing, then snorting contemptuously and wiping their arse on it

Here you go.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/apr/30/the-liberal-moment-has-come ]Clegg-mania (remember that?) bandwagon jumping[/url]

TJ - whilst I admire your tenacity in defending the Euro, I don't think I've ever read anything from you to back up your assertations.

Would you care to explain why you believe the Euro will not fail/will always be around/no-one will ever leave?

The guardian supported the Lib dems right from the SDP days. always has done.

You obviously don't read the Guardian TJ. Or if you do, you don't bother reading the editorials, in which case, I commend you.

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Source: The Guardian

The flying Ox

I rather feel the boot is on the other foot. Many folk on here with barely suppressed glee keep shouting the Euro experiment will fail without anything to back this view up.

As far as i can see there is no reason that it will fail. I have never seen anyone make any coherent argument that it will fail. Its backed by a huge econimic block, its holding it value.

Show me a single reason why it will fail ( whatever that means)

I have never seen anyone make any coherent argument that it will fail.

It's failing before your very eyes mate.....just "look".

where? Sorry - its still holding its value, there is no run on the banks.

What should I be looking for here? why will it fail?

I suspect I know which way this is about to go

*backs slowly away from the thread, leaving the 'Big Hitters' to go around in endless ill-tempered circles*

Well according to the Guardian the Eurozone is in "crises", I would call that "failure" ........I'm fairly sure it's [i]not supposed[/i] to be in crises.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/14/eurozone-crisis-uk-jobs-market-contraction?newsfeed=true ]Eurozone crisis blamed as UK jobs market faces 'painful contraction'[/url]

If the Guardian says the Euro is in crises, then it [i]must[/i] be true.

so a crisis is a failure to you ernie? - unusally imprecise language for you.

there are economic difficulties right across europe including the eurozone yes - but failure of a currency?

Not seen any evidence of it yet at all nor can I see any reason why it would "fail"

The stated aims of the Euro were to promote Growth, Employment and Stability.

mcboo - Member
Growth - Over the last 5yrs Italy has experienced average GDP growth of 1%

Jobs - Unemployment in Spain is 20%

Stability - To date Ireland, Portugal and Greece have had to be bailed out by the IMF. It's only lunchtime so I may have to add Italy and/or Spain to that by tea-time.

So how has it succeeded then Jeremy?

Remember

wishful thinking does not make it so.

Actually I was wrong about Italian GDP growth. It has averaged 1% for the last 10 YEARS.

So aims versus results = FAILURE

In an attempt to avoid the usual...

Are the current economic difficulties in Europe because of the Euro? I don't think so, but am happy to be persuaded.

so a crisis is a failure to you ernie?

Oh perhaps I was wrong after all, currencies are supposed to be in crises.....it doesn't represent any failure at all.

..... I think I'll leave it there for now.

As I ponder the new meaning of "failure".

So mcboo - because Italy has not grown the euro has failed? 😕

Can You actually show me a way the euro has failed adn why countries will be force to leave it?

I'm struggleing to understand this dogged defence of the Euro. It was a political project but a fiscal gamble. That gamble has failed.

It may well survive but its already caused enourmous damage to the world economy and I fear the worst is yet to come.

GB at least made one good decision and that was to keep us out of it.

Frodo - and I am struggling to see why it was a gamble and how it has failed.

You see its still trading at a good value, it has not needed much intervention of the central banks to hold its value, there is no run on the banks.

so in what way has it failed?

All I see are lots of dogmatic assertions that is a failure , a gamble, an experiment but no one seems to be able to come up with anything concrete that shows this

I suspect I know which way this is about to go

*backs slowly away from the thread, leaving the 'Big Hitters' to go around in endless ill-tempered circles*

What about endless happy circles, Binners?

[img] [/img]

I could just go repeating myself above if you like....aims v results.

The Euro has been a disaster for Italy because it was locked it into a common currency with Germany and therefore could no longer devalue its way out of trouble. At the same time they were able to borrow at low rates and therefore went ahead and did so to the extent they are now 120% of GDP in the red as the music stops. Couple that with a Prime Minister who posed as a liberal reformer but was nothing of the sort and you get the perfect storm.

France and Germany are now talking behind the scenes about forming a core northern block of themselves plus Holland and Finland with the others allowed back in as and when. I actually dont think Italy should or will leave the Euro soon, once we are right on the cliff edge the ECB is going to print money and buy Italian govies and the Germans will live with it.

Thats my definittion of failure. Now, can you demonstrate how the Euro has been a success? It's been great for Germany, but for everyone else.....

Edit and yes for the record, hats off to Gordon Brown for setting 5 impossible tests and keeping us out.

You cannot simply state that as it is holding its value it has not failed. For the average German it has not failed but for those in Grece and Italy it most certainly has.

Lets consider it like this - as a currency it has not failed.

As a single currency it most definitely has.

So actually you are basign your claim the euro has failed on the fact that the italian economy is rubbish.

I still see nothing there that says the Euro has failed - its the italian economy that is the issue surely?

Frodo

As a single currency it most definitely has.

How? Why? In what way has it failed - its still a single currency still has the same value right across Europe and the world.

do yo actually have something concrete to base your asertions on? In what way has it "failed"

Now, can you demonstrate how the Euro has been a success?

Over to you, I give you the floor.

Yes - simple - its an adopted currency for a huge trading block, it has held its value well without intervention, its stable, there are low interest rates. It has meant much simple cross border trading with massive savings.

Seems successful to me

I am still awaiting something concrete not assertions from the people who claim it has failed and is a gamble or experiment.

Are the current economic difficulties in Europe because of the Euro? I don't think so, but am happy to be persuaded.

I could just go repeating myself above if you like....aims v results.

Various countries celebrating the resounding success of the Euro recently

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[img] [/img]

[img] ?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1317050762559[/img]

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it has held its value well

Jeezuz Jeremy....thats not a good thing if you are an uncompetitive exporter.....is it?

there are low interest rates

Erm lets look at those interest rates again....

Benchmark 10yr Government Bond Yields

UK 2.2%
France 3.34%
Germany 1.78%
Italy 6.61%
Spain 5.92%
Sweden 1.63%
Greece 25.39%
Portugal 10.9%
Ireland 8.86%

I suspect Binners thats economic failure in those countries coupled with austerity policies. Not a lot to do with the euro as its exactly the same here and we are not in the euro

Cause and effect my friend

Mcboo - and that means the euro has failed how?

Did the £ fail on black wednesday? Oh no - it can't have done - its still here all those years later.

Binners - but we are in the same sort of situation and are not in the euro

You think we're in the same situation as Greece? Then you really are deluding yourself. 😯

You halved your salary recently?

Chief.....you said the Euro has delivered low interest rates. My apologies for pointing out that was pure fantasy.

yes binners what about in the uk and the protests here - why when we are not in the Euro- I dont see the cause and effect you claim except for capitalism tbh

A couple of hippies putting some tents up outside a big church isn't really this though, is it?

[img] [/img]

Mcboo - euro interest rates are low - government debt is not the same as euro interest rates. Have a look at euro interest rates

try again - got any concrete proof of the euro failing?

[img] [/img]

Did the £ fail on black wednesday? Oh no - it can't have done - its still here all those years later.

I'm starting to think you dont really believe your own argument. We left the ERM, let the currency devalue and moved quickly into serious economic growth right through the 1990s.

Are you trying to make my point for me on purpose?

I accept that the continentals are far better at violent protest/direct action than we are but this hardly negates the point I am making.

mcboo- the £ did not fail - its still here today. 🙄 We are not using dollars or Euros

Perhaps if you explained what a euro failure is ?

Have a look at the interest rates in the graph above?

Jeremy

Seriously

Have look at your chart.

Those are central bank base rates.

For overnight lending.

Italy sold 5yr bonds this morning at 6.3%

You have to wonder if he ever gets to a point on a thread where EVERYONE is disagreeing and thinks 'nah, they're ALL wrong...'

McBoo you seem to be relating two things [ black Wednesday and growth] that are not necessarily causal [ like the euro and economic downturn knackerd capitalism].
Should we devalue now to help us all out?
PS your "serious" economic growth was 1 % of GDP and the same as the 80's growth so that just hyperbole or over egging the pudding if you prefer.

http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:GBR&dl=en&hl=en&q=uk+gdp+growth

I think you're missing the point here though. The biggest failure of the whole Euro project isn't economic - though that's a big enough car crash!

The biggest failure has been in the sidelining of Democracy. Essentially the Greeks and the Italians, and other countries to a lesser degree, have effectively been [b]told[/b] by 'the Markets' that elected representative government is a luxury they can no longer afford. And if they do insist on it, then they will be punished severely for their impudence with effective bankruptcy. With the associated unemployment, collapse of living standards etc that that entails.

The Euro project was always fundamentally undemocratic. The degree to which that is now the case is staggering though

Can you really honestly think that [i]ANYONE[/i] who originally conceived the Euro project - and I do believe it was conceived for the right reasons - is presently sat back thinking 'this is all going great! We've furthered the democratic and economic aims of an entire continent. Lets crack open the champagne, eh?

PS your "serious" economic growth was 1 % of GDP and the same as the 80's growth so that just either hyperbole or wrong.

http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:GBR&dl=en&hl=en&q=uk+gdp+growth
/p>

See those squibbles averaging 3.35% between 1992 and 2000?

mcboo- yes I have given you the Euro interest rates since its creation - until the last two years consistently lower than the £ now slightly higher.

Italian government debt is not the same as euro interest rates.

Now - do you have any actual concrete reason to way the euro is a failed experiment - cos what I see it is a reality not an experiment and no failure yet. I can still go and buy Euros and they are not devaluing

so where is the sign of failure OF THE EURO?

Should we devalue now to help us all out?

Bit late. We've been devaluing our way out of trouble for 3yrs.

Binners _) I agree with you on that but it is no change. See black wednesday

sory i misread the scale [ i had kink that did it quarterly but did not post that hence the error] but i assume you see them before it as well.
You have not made the point that leaving ERM was causal and growth before and after was roughly the same- you are cherry picking just one factor to support your argument. It is just not that simple and growth rates were comparable for the periods before and after so it is not accurate to describe post erm growth as serious as it was just a return to the norm

mcboo- yes I have given you the Euro interest rates since its creation - until the last two years consistently lower than the £ now slightly higher.

Yes I know what you did. I just have no idea why you did it.

Italian government debt is not the same as euro interest rates.

I know. Thats the problem. Again, I don't know why you point that out unless you were trying to make my point for me.

I can still go and buy Euros and they are not devaluing

Nope. No idea what you're on about with that.

Now - do you have any actual concrete reason to way the euro is a failed experiment

Yes. Done that already. And you have tried to show that the Euro has been a success by pointing out that you dont know what the bond market is.

The Euro project was always fundamentally undemocratic. The degree to which that is now the case is staggering though

Not really, the European governments are all elected democratically, and they choose the people who run the euro. Of course that means that the richer and more populous parts of Europe have a greater say - but then the "tyranny of the majority" is a problem you get in all representative government, including the UK.

People in Spain are blaming the banks and the government for the current problems, I can't recall ever having heard anyone here complaining about the euro itself.

In Greece's case it may well be true that leaving the Euro would provide a solution to the current situation, but in the long-term they're going have to sort out their well-documented internal problems anyhow.

Mcboo - I said euro interst rates were low, you said they were not so I showed you they were. Then you tried to show that euro interest rates were high by using Italian debt trading as an example.

can yo please show me one concrete thing that says it has failed?

Its still there, still being traded, holds its value. thats seems like a fairly well functioning currency to me.

Where is the failure?

the European governments are all elected democratically

The current leaders of Greece and Italy haven't been democratically elected. They've effectively been imposed by Brussels.

Can someone else explain to him the difference between overnight ECB Base Rates and actual government bond yields. I've tried, he doesnt understand.

Oh I do understand Mcboo.

Euro interest rates are set by the ECB. Yo said euro interest rates are high - they are not.

Now - lets see the concrete evidence the Euro has failed please.

The current leaders of Greece and Italy haven't been democratically elected. They've effectively been imposed by Brussels.

Yes and no - noone forced the Greek and Italian governments into signing up for the currency in the first place, and if they had decided to withdraw from the currency they could have done so. They weighed up the consequences of doing so, and decided not to.

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Literal when it suits this thread. We are not likely to see euro notes fail to be euro notes. The implementation of a single currency has failed though, In that it would be easier to start again than fix the mess its in now.(not that thats likely.)

On that basis its has failed and as pointed out earlier the eurotypes are showing the true colours even more clearly.