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And train operators have asked the government where else they can be expected to make the cuts necessary. This will get even messier I fear.
It's either going to lead to price increases or other cuts, which will probably involve people so a further round of industrial action could well be the outcome of that.
The books ultimately have to be balanced as this is private enterprise running a public service and TOC's going under isn't a desirable outcome. Whether that's a good idea is a whole other thread.
The books ultimately have to be balanced
The profits that the train operating companies make is taxpayer funded.
going under isn’t a desirable outcome.
Why not? Government owned train companies seem to do a much better job.
Why not? Government owned train companies seem to do a much better job.
Some do.
Scotrail is still a festering pile of shite.
I think the train operators will simply reduce the frequency of unprofitable routes.
How long has ScotRail been out of private hands? And was it really any better then?
Isn't most of the UK rail industry now no longer in private hands precisely because privatised companies failed so comprehensively?
Edit: No it appears to be almost half of the industry which is no longer in private hands, not most.
How long has ScotRail been out of private hands?
April last year
And was it really any better then?
I refer you to my previous comment:
still a festering pile of shite
It was shite before, is shite now and will continue to be shite as long as Scotrail as an institution remains as is. It's actually insane how many levels of bureaucracy exist just to run a ****ing train service.
Network rail deal with the track
Transport Scotland deal with the timetables
Abellio deal with the admin
Scottish Railway Holdings own Scotrail
Scotrail still ignore everyone and do what the **** they want. Because thats how they've always done it.
The owner gets the blame for everything even if one of the myriad other parties is at fault.
I take it that you aren't a happy customer. I have no opinion on the matter and I have never been a customer.
But this paints a slightly different picture :
The independent watchdog for public transport noted a five point increase since 2021-22, with 91% of customers surveyed expressing satisfaction with ScotRail.
Ultimately there should at least be a bit more democratic accountability as ScotRail is now the responsibility of the Scottish government.
On a side note,*why* do we think the government have backtracked?
On a side note,*why* do we think the government have backtracked?
Because it's a tangible, hyperlocal issue that annoys people that normally vote Tory: pensioners.
The government told the operators to plan to close them. Now it’s seen the backlash it has changed its mind.
I’m all for efficiency but it would have further contributed to the lamentable treatment of disabled people on trains, not to mention you can’t actually buy all ticket options on apps or ticket machines. Plus fewer staff at stations makes everyone feel less safe. It would have eroded passenger numbers and been pretty awful.
Scotrail is just a good example of the whole privatisation fiasco from the day Major proposed it.
Rail privatisation: top 30 failures in 30 years | We Own It
" Plus fewer staff at stations makes everyone feel less safe. It would have eroded passenger numbers and been pretty awful. "
We don't require bus companies to keep staff at bus stops to make them safe. So why require every station to be staffed at all times? No ticket office? Use a machine or buy a ticket on the train.
Or keep them and put rail fares up to cover the cost.
Everything that clover said,but hey,I am sure there is an AI Behemoth waiting in the wings.
They just need to plug it in and get rid of more of those pesky human interactions.
On a side note,*why* do we think the government have backtracked?
Because it was blindingly obvious to even this group of sociopaths that it was wildly unpopular, and would obviously target vulnerable people the most, and the consultation (which had to be left open longer becasue of all the responses) was overwhelming opposed.
Remember seeing this report on Channel 4 News which gives some things to think about rather than "pensioners"...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e1egkpJGmpk
The decision was also discussed on the same programme last night.
Poopscoop
Full MemberOn a side note,*why* do we think the government have backtracked?
Attempt to bury other news
Clearly ticket offices in a load of Tory constituencies were going under the axe. They give not one fig about railway access for people who can't use smartphones or who need extra help, they can't even be bothered to care about them in the face of a global pandemic.
I have no doubt that the idea of closing them will re-emerge in a couple of years.
Scotrail is still a festering pile of shite.
I beg to differ. They are not perfect, but they on balance are far better than the stooshie of companies in England.
LNER are great.
My usual train journey ins Dunblane to London area - and out of 10 trips this last year, one has been delayed/chaos through broken signals.
I am turning myself back from the really negative view of train travel I had post pandemic, and feel it is OK now as long as you are not on Avanti or Cross Country. *shudders*
I have no doubt that the idea of closing them will re-emerge in a couple of years.
Under Labour?
Me at a staff-less station earlier.
Trust me - I barely escaped with my life.
IRC - the rail estate is more complicated than bus stops. For comparison bus stations (buildings) are staffed. Each bus has level access boarding for wheelchairs, something we have not achieved on rail. Disabled people are reliant on assistance at stations. <br /><br />
Unfortunately rail ticketing is not at the level at which all tickets are available to buy at ticket machines or online. This is an absolute nonsense situation but closing ticket offices in this nonsense situation would only made it worse.
Meanwhile, train services from Manchester to London are quietly cut, just to add insult to injury
Under Labour?
They'll keep trying it on until they get it through. If Labour are as close to the Tories as some people say, a watered down implementation might be accepted. If necessary, they'll pick off the ticket offices in small groups rather than go for all at once.
Like any public transport,if you are on a main (profit making)route,you will be OK.
If you are out in the sticks,not so much.
"The DfT now pays all the railway’s costs including the cost of ticket offices, DfT gives the train operators 2 per cent on top as their management fee – so paradoxically, if offices close, operators will lose the 2 per cent they’re paid on those ticket office costs.
“Closing ticket offices actually cuts their profits, which some people may not have entirely grasped.”
I am surprised that ticket offices represent such a small percentage of the total overall costs of running the railways.
I have a feeling the Government would be open to challenge under equalities legislation as closing ticket offices would disproportionately affect elderly and disabled people.
That and the fact that old people are more likely to vote Tory and lots of rural/suburban stations would be affected in Tory seats mean that a U-turn was likely.
Not sure where the required cost cutting is coming from now. Personally I think Govt should consider public transport as a public service and fund it as such.
I have a feeling the Government would be open to challenge under equalities legislation as closing ticket offices would disproportionately affect elderly and disabled people.
In which case, why haven't they lost that challenge due to the number of stations already running without staff?
so paradoxically, if offices close, operators will lose the 2 per cent they’re paid on those ticket office costs. “Closing ticket offices actually cuts their profits, which some people may not have entirely grasped.”
But, the same commentator notes, the hours of ticket offices are currently regulated, and have to be manned to those hours; and don't appear to be once the staff have been re-deployed as mobile customer facing teams, meaning they'll be easier to make redundant.
“The proposal is to place staff outside ticket offices. Ticket office hours are regulated in Schedule 17 of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement, but I expect the hours when mobile staff will be provided won’t be listed. “So I wouldn’t be surprised if staff disappeared soon afterwards.
lots of rural/suburban stations would be affected
I think it is the other way round. It is the inner city stations that would have been most affected as most of the current unmanned stations are rural/suburban.
East Croydon Station, for example, has 40 thousand passengers per day.
Ultimately there should at least be a bit more democratic accountability as ScotRail is now the responsibility of the Scottish government.
Scotrail was always the responsibility of the government! It's just the franchising system obfusticated that and made it look like the franchisee was responsible when in fact they only seemed to be accountable for implementing everyone else's demands.
My missus worked for Abellio and even she couldn't explain what exactly is was they expected to get out of the arrangement as they were providing back of house services for front of house blame and a vague promise of profits that never materialised because Scotrail were useless.
And yeah, they've been busy buggering up timetables and cutting services. Government run doesn't always equate to better or increased investment, CalMac users would also agree.
Meanwhile, train services from Manchester to London are quietly cut, just to add insult to injury
They've cut the time table, but given they only actually managed to run about 0.00001% of timetabled trains I'm not sure it's actually a cut, just a moment of [s] realism. [/s] marginally reduced delusion.
I beg to differ. They are not perfect, but they on balance are far better than the stooshie of companies in England.
Having done a WCML journey recently I'd agree. ECML is in no way comparable though as it tends to get you where you want in one go as it stops at all major cities.
But it's 2023 and this winter is still going to be a gamble every time I commute as to whether I'll get home again since nobody wants to put on a suitable train past Saltcoats (where the power lines get coated in salt funnily enough) meaning the track gets shut. Random cancellations with no warning are the norm (unless you're on the Ayr line with 3 trains per hour compared to our 1) and ticket cancellations incur a £10 admin fee regardless of what they cost in the first place.
So yes, they are a long, long way from perfect, I'd happily settle for mediocre at this stage.
On a side note,*why* do we think the government have backtracked?
Possibly because of 750,000 responses to consultation 99% of which were in favour of retaining ticket offices. It is a subject of great importance to disabled travellers.
I’d happily settle for mediocre at this stage.
Y'know I think they'd struggle to manage even that, It was only after I'd got on a train to Edinburgh at Manchester that they bothered to tell everyone on board that the train was in fact stopping at Lancaster* and we'd all have to get off and catch another one arriving 40 mins afterwards...
*that well known Scottish destination
Remember seeing this report on Channel 4 News which gives some things to think about rather than “pensioners”…
I don't think this government gives a monkey's about who it will negatively impact. I think they do care about the blue rinse vote because that affects the Tories.
Do you still see blue rinses these days?
I think a lot of the problems we have come from being 'customer led'.
Whatever is in fashion, gets enacted.
A better approach (IMO) is have heavy public investment in the track, stations, signalling and electrification. Then you have the ability to operate more services.
This will cost a ton of money, but there are long term benefits.
One thing I’d really like to see, is the railway companies start to treat their customers like adults, and not children who need to go to bed after tea-time. If I go to London or Bristol for a concert, I can often expect the concert to finish at around 11pm, or thereabouts, with travel back to Paddington taking around thirty minutes or so, if leaving from Camden or Greenwich, and the last train back towards Bristol is 11.32…
The last train from Bristol back to Chippenham is 10.40 pm! 😳 There are no venues in Bristol closer than a twenty-thirty minute walk back to Temple Meads, so that means leaving early and missing most of the main set; pointless, really. When I saw Pixies at The Roundhouse, I had to leave while the band were still playing, security had to haul me over the crowd barrier so I could leave past the front of the stage, and I got on the train four minutes before it left!
Really, is it too much to ask that train times take into account the fact that people might be travelling to a city to take advantage of the entertainment facilities on offer, and be able to get back home on a train that evening, not have to book into a hotel overnight and get home some time next day? That’s adding at least £50, probably more, to the costs of the event ticket, food, and travel.
😖
One thing I’d really like to see, is the railway companies start to treat their customers like adults, and not children who need to go to bed after tea-time.
I imagine the rail companies would love to do this. There is, however, the fact that regular maintenance is required on the railways and it would require a fundamental change to working practices which will never be agreed.
I think a lot of the problems we have come from being ‘customer led’.Whatever is in fashion, gets enacted.
Yes for the first line, but with a huge No for the second bit (although with the caveat that that's how Government have been operating for the last 10 years or so - leak a policy idea to the Daily Mail, see if it's well received or not and if not, backtrack on it).
The main problem with transport in general is that it's very heavily led by consultation and engagement but most of that is a total waste of time. The public don't have the expertise to come up with workable solutions, so very little of what they ask for can actually be realistically delivered so the pubic end up feeling disenfranchised and disrespected. Their time has been wasted because they were asked questions that they couldn't give a meaningful answer to - or they answered that they wanted X but instead they got Y.
Likewise, the actual people that work on the railways/buses/roads etc and manage them already know what the answers are, chances are most of them have had decades of experience on this sort of thing so they have to sit there and be polite at the unending wave of nonsense that comes from poor consultation then deliver the bits that they actually can within boundaries of the (limited and constantly shifting) funding envelopes.