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The updated website isn’t as good as the previous one in my opinion. And people seem to be getting ruder and you get trolled by know-alls regularly so you can’t be bothered posting so much.
thus has made a tipping point methinks.
The updated website isn’t as good as the previous one in my opinion.
Elaborating on why you think that beyond "isn't as good" might be helpful to the developers. Gods know there were plenty of complaints going back years with the previous incarnation.
I could list plenty of things wrong with the current implementation but I'm struggling to think of much which is worse than before. The 'like' button is a retrograde step perhaps, and the indices need work. Start / last read / end should be intuitive and I miss the page count. White-on-white text is irritating but that issue predates the migration. The post rate limit needs bringing back to prevent duplicate posts.
Meanwhile, being able to C&P photos directly into the editor is a killer feature, and the editor not shitting itself if you pasted text without laundering it through Notepad first was long overdue. The Search whilst not perfect is considerably better than it was. I haven't seen nginx 502 post-upgrade (though seemingly someone else has).
We're getting there I think. Given the choice, I wouldn't want to roll back.
For example it doesn’t seem easy to go straight to the last post of a thread. Eg the PSA thread.
I did try duckduckgo as a browser after being told so so many times that issues were due to me using chrome.
Mrs 100th deals with some pretty unsavoury scum and guess what duckduckgo is the browser of choice for almost every registered sex offender she has the misfortune to deal with.
So I'll be sticking with chrome, just visiting here less.
For example it doesn’t seem easy to go straight to the last post of a thread. Eg the PSA thread.
Click the >> after the thread title.
Mrs 100th deals with some pretty unsavoury scum and guess what duckduckgo is the browser of choice for almost every registered sex offender she has the misfortune to deal with.
A kitchen knife was the weapon of choice for many of the bams when I was growing up.
I didn't feel the need to start using spoons to chop vegetables in response.
As a test, I've been a free member for the last few weeks and it runs the same as a full paid member just with adverts. It takes from 2 to 10 seconds when I post so nothing terrible. Though it's definitely slower than other sites/forums I use.
I was more annoyed at the speed of the forum when I was a paid up member than I am now as a free loader.
It used to take 15 minutes to load Elite on my commodore 64 so 10 seconds isn't too bad.
The issues with the forum really don't help. I'm not across all the history, but my memory is that the original forum was
1) quick to use
2) each to follow threads that you're responding to
There just seems to be load of 'friction' in use now. 10 seconds or more to post while the wheel spins. On my iPad 'add reply' just not working (having to copy post contents, refresh page and try again)
There aren't many other forums I still use, and I know it needs to be integrated to the site/membership/hosting here but https://www.urban75.net/forums/ is still the best I've used
- fast
- a single click pulls up all the responses to threads you've contributed to, along with who has replied
- autosave of part written posts (on your account - shut down your browser and return to the site and your part written post is still there)
The user experience is not painfully slow but has definitely become frustratingly clunky since the 'upgrade' and is definitely more bothersome than a smooth running (optional) paid for website should (and STW did). That's my personal experience as both a paying and free subscriber and has in part driven that change in user type and frequency of visits.
Back to my pub analogy - if you're having to wait longer than before to order a drink and the bar tender regularly forgets your order, pours the wrong drink, gives you the wrong change, etc then it's another incentive to find a different bar.
Elaborating on why you think that beyond "isn't as good" might be helpful to the developers.
To be fair, there is a whole separate thread for this but I would expect this all to be have been part of a robust software release cycle for a commercial website. Maybe it was, I don't know, but the experience would suggest otherwise.
It's dead as a dodo.
Too complicated to post a pic, classified gone to shit.
Used to love it on here but now I spend about ten minutes a week.
I've discovered some handy functionality lately.
1. the expanding text box. Yes the gif is annoying.
2. the add images from photo library on iPhone
3. the create a quote button, which appears after you select text (iPhone, maybe others)
It's still ridiculously slow to load, and that's on a pretty powerful desktop, so the problem is you, not me.
Now just to sort the perverse mod'ing, and I might renew my sub.
I've been reading along on this thread but declined to get involved when it looked like it was going toxic (like so many others).
I've been here since not long after the start - maybe 2001/2
Personally I'd say I'm spending a fair bit less time on here recently. Primarily because there seems to be less going on on here - certainly less of interest anyway. (So it's a compounding problem)
A few years back it used to be full of riding and non riding threads that were interesting, engaging and occasionally absolutely hilarious.
I do still find some stuff interesting - I like the riding picture threads and also any write up of something I find interesting, e.g. a big bikepacking mission, or a mission to ride some hard tech or jumps etc...but these seem to be getting less frequent.
To some extent the declining amount of interesting stuff might be because my own riding has changed, from fewer short local xc night ride loops (that I had to entertain myself with when kids were younger) to more enduro, endurance, bikepacking, jumps and racing as my time has freed up.
There also seems to be a lot of folk on here who don't actually ride anymore, and seem to stick around not for any love of cycling, but to make snarky comments act holier than thou or generally stir shit up. They contribute nothing interesting, cycling related, so far as I can see. This is both strange and annoying, what with it being a forum that is supposed to be about cycling.
The UI is a bit shit but seems a lot better than at the start of the upgrade. It's not a massive turn off anymore for *me* but I can see it driving others away, for sure.
If you have to take commercial forum software and then customise (half-ruin) it to fit your business needs, then there's something going wrong. Can't you find a way to run it as vanilla as possible and keep membership stuff well away?
Seems like it'll be a constant battle you will struggle to develop/maintain, based on recent very haphazard upgrade experiences (IMO)
FFS, this site is crap. Can't be arsed and I'm probably going to flounce.
I go to reply to two people who commented on my post that I made today. I'm logged out, again.
5 mins later I'm logged in again, the slow way because half the time this site doesn't register on my password manager.
I want to quote the two people in a single post and whilst logging in either it can't or it forgets.
To poster #1 no matter what I use this place is slow. My super duper works laptop, the works in-silico machine (on stupidly fast broadband), a couple of half decent android phones. It's painfully slow on a lot of industry/user standard equipment and to those it works for, woot, lovely give yourself a smug pat on the back. It's crap from abroad.
To poster #2 did I complain about the adverts (Albanian recently, go figure what that's about for someone who isn't anywhere near Albania or looking for a hotel there)? The adverts that are all over the show to make up for the fact I don't pay a subscription? when I see something worth paying for I do, there are multiple posts in this thread of people saying it's not worth being a subscriber.
To use the pub analogy, I'm having to use a quill and ink pot to write notes to pub regulars for a casual chat. It gets harder and harder to be arsed, especially when there's winegums giving out about my ****ing penmanship.
Too complicated to post a pic,
Copy and Paste.
Done.
Look quote works and I’m still logged from weeks ago.
Forum's quite slow for me but not insufferably so, by any stretch.
Too complicated to post a pic,
I genuinely don't understand this.
For full members it's a perk, copy and paste directly into the editor as Drac says (it must be at least the 7th time this has been said). For free members it's the same as it's been for over a decade, host an image somewhere and post the link. Some image hosting sites are more forum-friendly than others but I cannot fathom how it's "complicated" unless you got your very first computer / phone last week.
Some image hosting sites are more forum-friendly than others but I cannot fathom how it's "complicated" unless you got your very first computer / phone last week.
The amount of ‘I DoN’t WoRk In iT!!!’ Messages I got after daring to suggest someone post a link suggests plenty of folk are new to the internet/computers. That or it’s the forums fault, rather than their own ignorance, that they can’t do simple things.
Deleted
Not understanding says way more about you than those who struggle to find this place anything but a terribly tedious experience.
This thread. Just like all the others I've ever read on here containing complaints about the forum shows a distinct divide between those who find the experience pretty terrible and smug full members weirdly sticking up for it like they're part of some sort of odd religion.
Anyone who thinks I've not been critical of STW and this forum is either new or not paying attention. Fact is, it's currently working just fine for me on a number of devices, but then I also contribute financially to the running of it and hence naturally expect fewer uninvited intrusions.
TBH, having started the thread as a bit of a fact-finding exercise, I don't think there's anything in the replies that has surprised me, except maybe the person who thought that running the Chrome browser was a bad idea 😉
Feels like it is ... it has changed ... topics/ people/ the whole feel of it .. occasionally I pop in to skim the front page of posts and there's nothing I want to read and I very rarely post here now. I was one of the original [mag] subscribers ... I love print, but even the refresh of the mag hasn't really excited me much. Change is fine, and we all change too and sometimes that just means that stuff comes to a natural close. I'm on the verge of cancelling my 'life long' sub, probably.
Some image hosting sites are more forum-friendly than others but I cannot fathom how it's "complicated" unless you got your very first computer / phone last week.
The amount of ‘I DoN’t WoRk In iT!!!’ Messages I got after daring to suggest someone post a link suggests plenty of folk are new to the internet/computers. That or it’s the forums fault, rather than their own ignorance, that they can’t do simple things.
Good websites just work without users having to set up their own devices to suit that particular website. In an ideal scenario it wouldn't matter how tech savvy or ignorant someone was. And there's plenty of sites where that IS the case.
My assumption is that there are reasons why that's hard to achieve here. Some technical, some resource related due to being a small operation. Although that's an assumption made in ignorance.
Sorry, what needs setting up? I open a web browser and... that's it.
More issues since mid yesterday on Chrome - I don't know the exact wording but keeps saying something like page is unresponsive, wait or kill, and then having to drop out of Chrome completely and start again (so can't screenshot either - although I suppose could get my phone and photo it, that idea just came to me). Not a new chromebook, but well in date and kept updated. Phone (android) doesn't get the issues. I can't see why an ASUS cb running up to date chrome should be some esoteric option, or why I need to set chrome up differently to accommodate one site, but if there's an obvious browser setting let me know.
but then I also contribute financially to the running of it and hence naturally expect fewer uninvited intrusions.
So did I, subscriber since issue 2 and also donated to 502 club, to help to transfer the site to a new platform...and I don't feel like it's been a success. As I posted previously, feedback is gold dust and whether positive or negative should be gratefully received even if then ignored. To see a staffer (I think TH is?) on here making comments like the one above, when afaict at least some of the problems ARE the forums's, not the users, doesn't make me any more likely to re-subscribe.
Unless TomH has been hired since today he’s not part of the staff.
Ok, apologies for that.
Speed is your friend
the glacial speed that the forum loads, often leads me to scroll on to something else.
Most of the kit we have now works, 10 years ago we were trying to make it work,
I still subscribe to the paper mag, I don’t know how much longer for. It seems a bit dull to me, whether that’s me having read every single issue, plus privateer, crank etc. so a bit jaded.
im riding more than ever thou.
Sorry, what needs setting up? I open a web browser and... that's it.
Good for you, same here.* But it's not actually about you (or even Dracs infamous iPad), or even me.
More issues since mid yesterday
But not for everyone apparently.
*Well, sort of, expectations are pretty low.
More issues since mid yesterday on Chrome - I don't know the exact wording but keeps saying something like page is unresponsive, wait or kill,
I get that sometimes, not specifically to STW. (For me at least) it's Chrome running out of resources, a reboot fixes it.
Good for you, same here.* But it's not actually about you (or even Dracs infamous iPad), or even me.
I appreciate that, but it doesn't answer my question. What are you suggesting needs "setting up" for other people?
To see a staffer (I think TH is?) on here making comments like the one above, when afaict at least some of the problems ARE the forums's, not the users, doesn't make me any more likely to re-subscribe.
I wrote a few articles a couple of years ago, but I’m not on the staff.
If you know of better way of telling someone how to accurately get to a specific part of a website, other than telling them the specific URL you were looking at, I’d love to hear it.
The (couple of) incidents I’m referring to, was a vague description of a PSA, I’d tried to find a link, (partly so others could find it, partly so STW could take a kickback) posted what I thought it was and the poster had a go ‘haha, clever dick, that’s the wrong one!’ I then asked them to post the right one then, and we got to what I described above, from a few users.
Seemingly willful ignorance. People would really rather describe what they were looking at, hoping others get it, than give them the EXACT location??? That’s not a forum issue.
I get that sometimes, not specifically to STW. (For me at least) it's Chrome running out of resources, a reboot fixes it.
It was only stw that was crashing it, probably because it's needy on resources compared to others if load time is anything to go by. In fact the only other site that takes an eternity is the local newspaper, and that's a shitshow of a site, nor an aspiration.
At tomh, must be, my mistake, I apologised. Yes, your point is fair and as you are not a staffer free to fire back as much as you like; my response was from the basis where you were.
Personally I've been ignoring the Chat forum this year, don't know why, it just happened.
I used to be a serial thread creator in the bike forum, still have a list of threads I want to start but never got round to.
Generally on bikes since getting into it during Covid I've always had a lot to learn and be excited about, but probably reached a point now where I know most of what I need. Bike stuff online isn't as exciting anymore, I've been visiting all my bike news and review websites less this year, unsubscribed from most bike YouTubers too.
Good for you, same here.* But it's not actually about you (or even Dracs infamous iPad), or even me.
I appreciate that, but it doesn't answer my question. What are you suggesting needs "setting up" for other people?
Miscommunication, I'm suggesting the opposite. In the post I responded to
That or it’s the forums fault, rather than their own ignorance, that they can’t do simple things.
Posting on a forum should be something so simple that comments like this almost never happen.
I go to reply to two people who commented on my post that I made today. I'm logged out, again.
Tbh, I think a lot of these discussions are more about those that want to cut the forum some slack (for valid community reasons) and those that don't (for valid usability reasons).
Whilst I'm here. if anyone knows why.
I can only post by typing whatever it is. And then scrolling the page first, I can't just hit add reply, nothing happens. I have to scroll a little then add add reply. Curious little quirk that one if anyone knows why that happens?
I see this all the time on Facebook. "Hey everyone, we're proud to announce our new café menu / escape room / pub quiz night / llama farm" but with no indication of where it is. Maybe it's intentional to drive traffic to their website, but spending five minutes trying to unearth where they actually are just to discover it's a coffee shop in Suffolk is one for Disproportionally Cross. Unless you're in Suffolk I suppose.
So paying members just "cut and paste" and us lowlifes have to go round the houses to get a pic up?
Why on earth can't you just post it from your phones gallery like FB??
Paying members can upload an image to the site. Free members can copy and post a link from another site. Unlike Facebook STW doesn’t make billions from advertising.
Why on earth can't you just post it from your phones gallery like FB??
That's exactly how I do it, using the My Media link under the text entry box. Works every time.
So paying members just "cut and paste" and us lowlifes have to go round the houses to get a pic up?
Why on earth can't you just post it from your phones gallery like FB??
I think that's just a cost to STW thing, storing photos costs money and there's not enough revenue to justify everyone being able to upload photos onto STWs servers so it's limited to paid members.
I can post images there's going to be some tedious photo's in threads now
So paying members just "cut and paste" and us lowlifes have to go round the houses to get a pic up?
Correct, though "round the houses" is something of a leap. If you haven't worked out how to copy & paste a line of text by now - a process invented by Xerox half a century ago - then I don't know what else you expect. As Drac (and many others have) said,
Paying members can upload an image to the site. Free members can copy and post a link from another site.
I'm not being a nob, I genuinely do not understand why this is challenging.
Literally, all you need do is copy the URL and paste it into the text box
Guess that's no help if you don't know what a URL is though, or how to get it for the image you want to post.
Think I just found a bug, if you edit a post and add new media it creates a new post.
Are there new things broken? By putting spoiler code in the Dr Who thread I seem to have made it so that I can’t open any spoilers in that thread at all, or type in the reply box, or like a post.
Just reading through the last few posts, and it appears that I can post directly from my photo library on my phone or iPad, is that correct?
I post from Postimage, as I’ve done for years, as I’m used to doing it, and it does give me the option to scroll back and find images I’ve posted in the past relatively easily; trying to find the same image in my library can be frustrating, as I’ve got thousands of images.
I must say I’m not finding the forum particularly slow in loading, and I’m doing it on a six year old iPad, which is fairly elderly as these things go.
Just reading through the last few posts, and it appears that I can post directly from my photo library on my phone or iPad, is that correct?
Tap on the My Media text below the text box, select add images, wait for them to upload and then click the box next to the image then finally tap Insert Into post.
If a UI needs explaining...
Said it before but the whole change makes the Sonos update last year look well planned.
Can I suggest, with reference to the OP's original question, that the fact this thread is still trundling on after nearly 2 weeks and 450 replies, that no, the forum isn't dead or dying.
Can I suggest, with reference to the OP's original question, that the fact this thread is still trundling on after nearly 2 weeks and 450 replies, that no, the forum isn't dead or dying.
But is it the same small number of people complaining vs the small number of people saying its fine?
Can I suggest, with reference to the OP's original question, that the fact this thread is still trundling on after nearly 2 weeks and 450 replies, that no, the forum isn't dead or dying.
Not if once upon a time it would have got 1000 replies 😀
I don't believe it's dying... but it's got a decent fleshwound and needs some surgery IMO
But is it the same small number of people complaining vs the small number of people saying its fine?
If that's true then I'd say it's a good sign - complaints are always the loudest voices on the Internet as people tend not to post comments like "I did a thing and it was fine".
If that's true then I'd say it's a good sign - complaints are always the loudest voices
Not if it's just a small number of people bickering for the sake of it, as is an all to common trait in low moderated forums. There'll usually be people ready take on the role to "self moderate" if it isn't moderated officially.
Ultimately, the telling sign will be the subscription rates. It's a fickle world and if people aren't happy then they'll vote with their pockets if they feel the site doesn't give them value for money - be it in content, style or usability.
I often wonder whether the driver to subscribe is driven by a combined desire for both magazine and forum as it once was. Does the site add to the magazine, vice-versa or not at all?
I suppose the acid test is to visit here, PinkBike, BikeMagic as well as the various other sites and Insta/TikTok places that the cool kids hang out these days - as much as possible logged out so as a new visitor to get the full 'freeloader' experience.
If you were the customer of tomorrow for these forums, where would you spend your time and money based on content, style and usability?
I suppose the acid test is to visit here, PinkBike, BikeMagic as well as the various other sites and Insta/TikTok places that the cool kids hang out these days
You might struggle to post anything on Bikemagic.
Pinkbike forum "Active Threads" list is 25 posts long, the last one was updated 2 days ago.
STW latest threads list - 25th oldest was updated 3 hours ago.
Is the Pinkbike forum dead/dying?
as is an all to common trait in low moderated forums.
Odd, I thought the usual accusation was that this place was over-moderated.
Maybe, just maybe...
I guess its a question too about quality over quantity; example being this thread still at top of list
I suppose the acid test is to visit here, PinkBike, BikeMagic as well as the various other sites and Insta/TikTok places that the cool kids hang out these days
You might struggle to post anything on Bikemagic.
I didn’t actually say to use a forum, just look at the experience with fresh eyes to see whether you would stay somewhere long enough to create an account to use a forum.
Although you’ve quite likely hit the nail on the head. STW was spawned from a busy Usenet group and where is that now? Maybe forums have ran their course and this is a dying group as a result?
Which takes me back to my question … if you were the STW customer of tomorrow, is this somewhere you would stay after your first visit?
Which takes me back to my question … if you were the STW customer of tomorrow, is this somewhere you would stay after your first visit?
Well, I reckon it's mostly about content and engagement, which is why I started the thread. I was genuinely interested in what topics folk thought weren't popping up that once were.
I didn’t actually say to use a forum, just look at the experience with fresh eyes to see whether you would stay somewhere long enough to create an account to use a forum.
Well the latest news on there is who is going to be at the NEC Bike Show.. 2015.
However, yes forums have suffered from other media like Facebook Groups.
I'm one person who went from viewing STW several times a day to a couple of times a week. I largely put that down to the new forum being immensely slow and frustrating to use in a time when almost all forums are struggling against social media, and the cascading impact of fewer posts = less content to read. I usually use reddit or discord for other hobbies and the only reason I come back here is the mtb subreddit is awful. Honestly, an r/stw would be perfect but I suppose there's no revenue stream there.
I'm one person who went from viewing STW several times a day to a couple of times a week. I largely put that down to the new forum being immensely slow and frustrating to use
Same here, I keep hoping it will get 'fixed' but thats looking less likley as time goes on............................
I also have dropped away from here for while. Quick lurk now and again.. almost post something, make a comment. Then can't arsed to log in and do something.
But, what turns me off somewhat is the Freeloader comments on this and other threads.
I'm a user presented with adverts (don't care) but made to feel like a second class citizen.
Facebook, Reddit etc. dont go out there way to highlight your rank.
As mentioned before STW was a Usenet group, then this, perhaps it needs to move again ;-). Sub Reddit, discord, Bluesky or plain old YouTube with comments below or something.
Mayby a Xenforo forum or similar, something decent.
Look at EMTB Forums that came from nowhere.
Easy to sling them some money.
STW is a business with employees and the only revenue they have is pop up ads on website.
I must get more inspired to post things again on here, but I"m finding it hard. Can't even be bothered with tractors anymore :-(.
STW is a business with employees and the only revenue they have is pop up ads on website.
And subscriptions.
And subscriptions. True.
Perhaps a another title could be introduced, "forum supporter" I'd would donate every year.
If your going have little badges and things, add a few more options.
But not that interested in the mag anymore. So don't want to subscribe.
So I suck it up.... Or drift away
Can you remember in the past if you tried to post to fast, you were told to slow down... Just a myth now.
But, what turns me off somewhat is the Freeloader comments on this and other threads.
I'm a user presented with adverts (don't care) but made to feel like a second class citizen.
Don't let it get to you. That used to irritate me a little before I became a subscriber, so I make a point of not doing it now I am. However, that label is never bandied about by STW staff, so it's definitely not an "official" view. It's only ever said by a handful of (small minded imo) subscribers.
Most of us don't give a flying **** what the "status" of another forum user is, we take people as we find them. That's life, on forums and IRL. You get a huge mix of people, a small minority of whom get their jollies by winding people up or throwing insults. Toughen up a little. The same as we all had to do in the school playground once (a good analogy imv) and let it wash over you. The vast majority of users would never say that to you, just ignore those that do.
However, that label is never bandied about by STW staff
I'm sure it used to an official 'tag' next to the name of a couple of users in a bygone age. 🙂
But not that interested in the mag anymore. So don't want to subscribe.
That's where I'm at too. I do the Digital Subscription to support the forum. Sure, a forum-only subscription would work for me but I also I understand that's not an option that Mark will consider. I guess the question is; how much would you be willing to pay as a Supporter, how much more does a Digital Subscription cost, and is it worth just sucking up the difference for an improved experience? For some (e.g. me) I've done the cost/benefit thing and just pay up.
I was bored, so I did a control F search for the word "Freeloader" on every page of this thread. Prior to you raising it, it appeared twice. Once by @binners in what seemed to me to be an attempt at humour, unflatteringly likening those whose use the phrase to an obnoxious Harry Enfield character. And once by a non-subscriber in what seemed to be an ironic way. In 475 posts. Hardly a torrent of abuse worthy of making someone feel uncomfortable, is it?
I'm sure it used to an official 'tag' next to the name of a couple of users in a bygone age. 🙂
Before my time so I'll take your word for it! However the way I see Mark communicate on here I can't imagine him saying it, or tolerating other staff doing so? I do tend to always see the good in people though. Maybe I'm naive and he prowls the lawns of non-subscribers in the dead of night, armed with frozen sausages and a hammer?
My memory is very hazy, but I think it was poking fun at a couple of well-established and vocal users who would understand the joke, and certainly not at free members in general.