My goodness. You think a ned from the Glasgow schemes has a similar culture and income to a Surrey stockbroker? that a Teuchter from Harris has a similar income and culture to city slicker in London?
Furthermore I’m more than happy to change my position. I don’t claim to be the most knowledgeable well informed person out there, I try my best to have an informed opinion hence me posting on this thread. I want debate and to have my position challenged.
A good attitude. Y(Ou will need a thick skin on here
I want debate and to have my position challenged.
Ok, so let's start with answering the questions I've asked of you above, because I think it's important to understand where you're coming form, where you get your information from, and why you have such views. Not wishing to be hostile at all, I just think it's vital to challenge falsely held notions.
But across the UK people have, generally speaking a similar culture and income.
Similarities in culture and income are not logical criteria for allowing the free movement of people. If they were then we would be able to freely move to the US, Canada and Australia. And besides, there are enormous differences within the UK on culture and income and yet we don't restrict movement on that basis. Yes, poorer countries should be helped to get richer, and that is the real solution to the 'movement of people' problem, and free movement would be a massive catalyst to achieve that. If we restrict movement to keep people out, then there's no practical motivation to improve the places where we want people to stay. If you want to remove the motiviation of people to move based on income/wealth, then you should probably support free movement as it's possibly the best way to improve equality between countries.
Teuchter ! That's fightin talk tjagain. Just go up to the next Hearach you see and call him /her a teuchter 🙂
For clarity here is the Dictionary of the Scots Language definition
TEUCHTER, n. 1. Also cheuchter, chuchter, choochter, a term of disparagement or contempt used in Central Scotland for a Highlander, esp. one speaking Gaelic, or anyone from the North.
Also we damage ourselves by limiting movement. If we keep people out, then that means we're also keeping ourselves in. Why would we want to limit our own movement? It's completely self-destructive.
Sorry Gordimhor did I spell it wrong? 🙂
I thought you had reclaimed the word anyway? Point taken
damn I'm not sure where to start. To TJ yes I Think the ned from a deprived area of glasgow has a far more similar culture and income compared to the guy from say somalia (I give this example as I have a somalian friend)
brownperson I'll do my very best to answer your questions please list them.
I'd like to reiterate I'm in no way against immigration I just think we need to have a sensible discussion about it without insults being thrown around.
and again I'd like to stress that this wasn't specifically about immigration, that was just an example. I more wanted to understand what far right means in the UK today
brownperson I’ll do my very best to answer your questions please list them.
OK, once again:
As a country we should look after our own citizens first.
I’d like to know what this actually means. Because British citizens do get looked after more than others. They have more access to healthcare and education services, the automatic right of abode, the right to work, pensions, social security etc.
I believe (again happy to be corrected) that 50% of our social housing is occupied by people not born in this country
I’s also really like to know why you believed that (past tense now that nonsensical claim has been easily debunked by just looking at some actual stats). Because it’s exactly the sort of thing that the far right make up to spread hatred and resentment amongst the ignorant and vulnerable. Why did you have that belief?
My concern is that if everyone with (IMO) genuine immigration concerns
Please explain; what exactly are ‘genuine immigration concerns’?
Thanks for the explanation gordimhor, I suspected I might have got that wrong but couldn’t see how. <br /><br />
I must admit the workings of the Scottish electoral system are a mystery to me. I wouldn’t say it’s produced much better results than the UK system so far.
Easily - while the SNP and the Scots government get a bad press and have made errors some huge in actuality they have achieved a lot - for the poor, the sick and the elderly and in infrastructure
Lets see - free prescriptions, free personal care, an end to the wasteful and expensive fake market in the NHS, no NHS strikes because they actually sat down with the unions. Waiting lists are shorter as well although still not good at all - to the point NHS Scotland is treating and being paid for treating English patients
Nurses in Scotland are paid a bit more than in England. If you are poor and have kids you are better off in Scotland because of the scottish child payment ie no two child limit on benefits, no bedroom tax either here. all disability assessments are done in house not outsourced to a company that makes money buy refusing the assessments so much less refused benefits that are restored on appeal. Low paid you pay a it less tax in Scotland
New railway lines opened, no tolls on the various bridges, free car parking at hospitals bar a couple where the PFI contracts did not allow it
To think that the SNP government is really no better than the tories is absurd. they at least have a basic level of competence and far less corruption
sorry brownperson I wrote a somewhat long reply to you but I got a bad gateway thing when I tried to post it. I need to go out for a few hours but I'd love to continue the discussion when I get back. I think you raise valid points.
If you use the back button on the browser it's often still there
Very disturbing to see today's march against antisemitism attended by Yaxley Lennon, although he wasn't welcome by organisers, and arrested by police. The British far-right are now aligning themsleves with anything they see as anti-Muslim; they're 'supporters' of the Israeli regime because of their perception that it is an 'ally'. The far-right have increasingly been seen waving Israeli flags, no doubt as an attempt at provocation towards pro-Palestinian groups and demonstrators. The whole situation is becoming worryingly polarised; my wife did not want to attend, as the general political ethos of the march does not align with her personal views, nor those of the Jewish organisations she supports. I don't know of any left-leaning jewish organisations that did attend. I'm hearing that some are claiming they were 'not welcome'; whether or not they have been told specifically not to attend by organisers or others, or that they have simply chosen not to attend, I am not sure. I do know that there are conflicting views about it though.<br /><br /> https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/sundays-march-against-antisemtism-is-not-a-march-against-antisemitism/
That the march was attended by such right-wing figures as Boris Johnson, Robert Jenrick and others, is also disturbing. At a party I went to on Friday, held by Jewish friends, the consensus was that nobody there would be attending either, choosing instead to go to the 'pro-Palestine' march instead. I find it depressing that this tragedy has become so politically polarising, just at the time when unity and solidarity is most needed. It's become very much a right vs left thing, sadly. And there will be those on both 'sides' that will hijack the respective causes for their own political ends. So it's vitally important for those who truly stand for peace, to disassociate themsleves with the extremist fringes, as well as the political opportunists.
I’s also really like to know why you believed that (past tense now that nonsensical claim has been easily debunked by just looking at some actual stats). Because it’s exactly the sort of thing that the far right make up to spread hatred and resentment amongst the ignorant and vulnerable. Why did you have that belief?
I suspect that it was a poorly remembered claim made a right-wing/centrist Labour politician, and reported in a renowned racist newspaper:
Was Frank Field racist for saying that British taxpayers should get priority in the social housing queue over new migrants?
That is probably debatable.
But since Frank Field is a Zionist, and imo Zionism is inherently racist, I reckon that is a moot point.
Again the 50% claim was a big mistake on my part. I shouldn't throw stats around that I cannot back up. I fully accept that I need to have a good think on why I was led to believe that was accurate.
Sorry tj, I cannot agree. I’ve never been more disappointed in a government than I am in post-Salmond SNP. Not even Blair’s Labour.
As a part Scot and former Scotland resident I’d have voted for independence like a shot, and have voted SNP in the past. Now I wouldn’t bother with either - being slightly better and less corrupt than the worst UK government in a century doesn’t cut it I’m afraid.
Your call but you are wrong about their achievements - pre and post Salmond. They have done a lot with very little - far more than labour are proposing to do at Westminster. Starmer has said reversing the bedroom tax and benefit cap is too expensive but the Scots government manage. So the SNP have already outperformed what Starmer says he can do
those acheivements are real and beyond labours aspirations. There is less poverty and illhealth in Scotland as a result of the Scots government policies over a15 years
From your post I guess you don't live here anyway
To brown person I'll address your questions.
'As a country we should look after our own citizens first' I'd like to make clear that I consider our own citizens to be anyone born here, whether they're white, black, brown or anything else. That being said people in our country are struggling right now, with cost of living, cost of housing, cost of everything. This doesn't effect the rich, it hits middle income families hard, it hits low income families harder still. Anyone who was struggling already is now in serious trouble. These people need our help, it's through no fault of there own that they are in this situation. It's my opinion that these people should be prioritised over immigrants. There's only so much to go around, however if after helping these people (our citizens) we can afford to help immigrants then that is a very good thing to do and should be encouraged.
'the 50% thing' I was wrong and I accept that, see above.
'genuine immigrant concerns' see point one
I also have a question for you brownperson. Above you describe Boris Johnson as far right. I personally have no love for BJ I think he's awful, a self serving, lying, corrupt, (can I swear on here?) piece of shit. The one thing I wouldn't describe him as is far right. BY what metric would you describe him as such?
As a country we should look after our own citizens first’ I’d like to make clear that I consider our own citizens to be anyone born here
Why do you believe that someone born overseas cannot be a citizen?
And what do you mean by "look after"? Access to healthcare, housing, employment?
As someone born overseas I am interested in what social provision you believe I should be denied 🤔
Edit: Btw I am white European, if that makes a difference to your answer...
.it seems to for a lot of people.
BY what metric would you describe him as such?
His racism? His disdain for the people of this country? His entitlement? he has little personal ideology I believe but he is certainly racist and certainly right wing in his views. Hard right? Only for the racism
Billabong - we have plenty of money in this country that no one need be struggling. Poverty in the UK is a direct result of tory policy - and done deliberately.
Boris Johnson isn't racist, he was demonstrating against anti-semitism in London today.
That's a fair comment. I believe someone from overseas can become a citizen, however I think there's still a distinction to be made between someone who is born here and an immigrant who obtains citizenship. For example if I was to move to another country and was to commit a crime, any crime, I would expect to be deported back to my country of origin. I think this is fair.
apologies ernie, I didn't see your full post but yes white European should be considered the same as anyone else
For example if I was to move to another country and was to commit a crime, any crime, I would expect to be deported back to my country of origin.
Not necessarily, it would more than likely depend what crime you had committed. Although I wouldn't try my luck in Saudi Arabia.
So now we have moved on from a generalization of all people born overseas to criminals born overseas?
TJ I completely agree that the torys are terrible, I cannot stress this enough. The tories can get ****ed
ernie i hope we could agree that foreign criminals should not be allowed to move here
white European should be considered the same as anyone else
The same as anyone else born in the UK or anyone else born overseas?
The same as anyone else born overseas
Ah, I agree. Although I doubt everyone on here agrees.
As a country we should look after our own citizens first’ I’d like to make clear that I consider our own citizens to be anyone born here, whether they’re white, black, brown or anything else
Being born here doesn't automatically grant you UK Citizenship. Many 'immigrants' hold UK citizenship; are you going to tell those who came over on the Kindertransport, or the Empire Windrush, or who fled persecution and war in places like Uganda, Kenya and Syria, those who came here and made Britain their home, who have lived and worked here and contributed to our economy, society and culture, that they are not British?
It’s my opinion that these people should be prioritised over immigrants
Why? Things like housing are allocated according to a strict criteria of need. The myth that 'foreigners' get housing priority over British people is just that, a myth. Oft peddled by the far-right.
There’s only so much to go around
There's more than ample money to house people, there just isn't the political will. This government spent billions on covid contracts, many of them yielded nothing but profit for already wealthy people.
‘genuine immigrant concerns’ see point one
I've yet to see any such thing.
I also have a question for you brownperson. Above you describe Boris Johnson as far right. I personally have no love for BJ I think he’s awful, a self serving, lying, corrupt, (can I swear on here?) piece of shit. The one thing I wouldn’t describe him as is far right. BY what metric would you describe him as such?
This is very easy; Boris has made many racist statements during his career, such as describing Muslim women wearing niqabs as 'letterboxes', referring to black people as 'picanninies with watermelon smiles', and stating that black people have low IQs. By that 'metric', I'll happily call him 'far right'. <br /><br />Boris Johnson was born outside of the UK. By your own logic, he is an 'immigrant' and therefore should not be afforded the same rights and privileges as a UK born person such as myself. As a former PM, Boris is 'entitled' to an allowance of £115,000 per year, from the public purse. I wonder what your thoughts are, on that?
Again I'd like to stress this isn't a white/black/brown issue. I'd have the same attitude if hundreds of thousands of british people decided to move to say Nigeria. I think that would be a problem for the native Nigerians.
however I think there’s still a distinction to be made between someone who is born here and an immigrant who obtains citizenship. For example if I was to move to another country and was to commit a crime, any crime, I would expect to be deported back to my country of origin.
Why?
Because the immigrant hasn't paid their dues / enough taxes to society? What if an indigenous person commits a crime, but they haven't contributed to society/paid enough taxes either? Should we deport them too? If so, where? Or should we have different rules for different subsets of the population? Why should where you were born afford you privilege?
TJ I completely agree that the torys are terrible, I cannot stress this enough. The tories can get ****
What you are missing is the poverty in the uk IS DELIBERATE tory policy
brownperson again I love your contribution, you make very valid points. I'd like to see the data that being born here doesn't automatically grant citizenship. I've never heard of this, perhaps that's ignorance on my part. You mention windrush, I think that's a shameful part of our history but as I said if someone is born here then they are British as far as I'm concerned.
I find it depressing that this tragedy has become so politically polarising, just at the time when unity and solidarity is most needed.<br /><br />
Then why would you choose not to go today, causing your viewpoint to be less represented? Why not challenge them and show them they’re the minority? And as you say, Yaxley was told by the organisers not to attend and was arrested when he did.
Aside from attendees, such as the person arrested yesterday for carrying a sign with a swastika, there is Hamas links and support among the organisers of the Pro Palestine marches. Yet many more peaceful people were happy to attend and make sure their own views were heard.
Or just be honest that you picked a side.
Again I'm no fan of the tories, I think their 12/13 years of government have been terrible.
Scruff i'm not sure I understand your point.
“From your post I guess you don’t live here anyway“
Former resident, regular visitor, and lover of Scotland (hopefully a future resident as well, but not yet). So, no, no skin in the game, but a passionate interest
“There is less poverty and illhealth in Scotland as a result of the Scots government policies over a15 years”
Scottish life expectancy has got worse for the last three years
Anyway, I don’t want to derail the thread tj, I expect we’d agree on more than we’d disagree - as I said I’m just very sad about how self-governance has turned out. I really believed we’d show England how to run a country.
and stating that black people have low IQs.
Has Johnson really said that? I wasn't aware.
Are you sure that Johnson didn't just say it to sound more like Winston Churchill who was well-known for his Anglo-Saxon racial supremacy veiws?
Mind you Johnson with his Ottoman blood is hardly an example of racial purity.
<h2>brownperson again I love your contribution, you make very valid points. I’d like to see the data that being born here doesn’t automatically grant citizenship. </h2>FRom here:
https://www.gov.uk/check-british-citizenship/born-in-the-uk-between-2-october-2000-and-29-april-2006
<h2> </h2><h2 id="if-your-parents-were-not-british-irish-eu-or-eea-citizens-when-you-were-born" style="font-family: 'GDS Transport', arial, sans-serif; -webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; font-size: 1.6875rem; line-height: 1.111111; margin-top: 45px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: #0b0c0c; color: #0b0c0c;">If your parents were not British, Irish, <abbr style="cursor: help;" title="European Union">EU</abbr> or <abbr style="cursor: help;" title="European Economic Area">EEA</abbr>citizens when you were born</h2>
You’re only automatically a British citizen if when you were born at least one of your parents lived in the UK and had one of the following immigration statuses:
<ul style="font-family: 'GDS Transport', arial, sans-serif; -webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; font-size: 1.1875rem; line-height: 1.315789; margin-top: 20px; margin-bottom: 20px; list-style: outside; margin-left: 20px; padding: 0px; caret-color: #0b0c0c; color: #0b0c0c;"><li style="margin: 0px 0px 5px; padding: 0px;">indefinite leave to remain (<abbr style="cursor: help;" title="indefinite leave to remain">ILR</abbr>)
<li style="margin: 0px 0px 5px; padding: 0px;">right of abode
<li style="margin: 0px 0px 5px; padding: 0px;">right of re-admission
If the parent that meets these conditions is your father, he must have been married to your mother when you were born.
So if both your parents don't meet these criteria, then you are not automatically British, even if you are born here.
I'm sorry; I can't do anything about the formatting issue here; I simply copied and pasted from the government website.
I stand corrected
and I disagree. Anyone born here is british as far as I'm concerned
shamima begum? Born in the UK had her citizen revoked and made stateless.
Or how about England cricket captains born overseas? You don't get more english than being the cricket captain Ben Stokes is one example amongst many
Then why would you choose not to go today, causing your viewpoint to be less represented? Why not challenge them and show them they’re the minority? And as you say, Yaxley was told by the organisers not to attend and was arrested when he did.
Aside from attendees, such as the person arrested yesterday for carrying a sign with a swastika, there is Hamas links and support among the organisers of the Pro Palestine marches. Yet many more peaceful people were happy to attend and make sure their own views were heard.
Or just be honest that you picked a side.
I have 'picked a side', you are right. The side of peace.
As for the march today; I didn't say that I chose not to attend. I had a prior engagement to help a neighbour with something. My Jewish wife, and other Jewish people we know, chose not to attend. Would you say that they have 'picked a side'? What side have you picked?
I have in fact attended previous 'pro-Israel' demonstrations, as I feel it's important to listen to a range of different voices. I have witnessed Islamophobic behaviour by some attendees at such gatherings (as I have witnessed what I consider to be antisemitic behaviour in some attendees of 'pro-Palestinian' demos). I am also further concerned by the alliance the far-right have formed with some 'pro-Israel' groups. I am heartened though by the organisers of today's march stating that the EDL were not welcome. My overriding concern is that racism in all forms must be challenged whenever possible. So I think it's a shame that today's march was co-opted by known racists and xenophobes.
These are very specific examples. Shamima begum I disagree with her citizenship being revoked, I think she should be allowed back and get a fair trial .
I have no idea who Ben Stokes is so cannot comment
and I disagree. Anyone born here is british as far as I’m concerned
What do you feel about the immigrant Boris Johnson? Do you regard him as 'British'?
What about Sir Mo?<br /><br /><br />
I am just poking a bit of fun and your position on citizenship - its not as clear cut as you think. Ben Stokes is a england cricket captain - born in NZ IIRC but you donot get much more english than captaining the cricket team
A friend of mine was born in the Seychelles - that that make her less British?
Johnson was born in the US? Is he entitled to less than a UK born person?
Or how about my friend of danish birth - she is now a UK citizen but was not born here. Is she worth less than someone born here? she emplyes 2 folk. thats gotto give her some credit surely?
Brownperson / Ernie - can you suggest some reading for billabong?
I can honestly say I have no idea where BJ was born, please educate me.
Again I stand by my position, I don't know where big mo was born. If he's 1st gen immigrant and commits a crime deport him. If he has kids who were born here and they commit a crime it's a different discussion.
I’m sorry; I can’t do anything about the formatting issue here; I simply copied and pasted from the government website.
On a desktop you get the optionof "paste without formatting" - that gets rid of the nonsense something similar on phones?
I'd love to be recommended some reading btw
I can honestly say I have no idea where BJ was born, please educate me.
USA
so BJ was born in the US of A. He's american
Brownperson / Ernie – can you suggest some reading for billabong?
UK govt website I've already linked to, regarding all aspects of citizenship legislation. And not the Daily Mail.
I can honestly say I have no idea where BJ was born, please educate me.
Manhattan, NY.
Again I stand by my position, I don’t know where big mo was born. If he’s 1st gen immigrant and commits a crime deport him. If he has kids who were born here and they commit a crime it’s a different discussion.
Mohamed Farah was born in Somalia, from where he was trafficked as a child to the UK. Mohamed Farah is not his real name. Sir Mohamed Farah is a Knight of the Realm. Only a British Citizen can be made a Knight of the Realm.
I was hoping for a little more than read uk.gov. I'm genuinely interested in hearing a different point of view.
I was thinking some books. I cannot think of anything recent thats appropriate.
Orwell maybe? Which is his book that deals with racism and colonialism? - decades since I read it<br /><br />
I'm already an orwell fan
How about Norwegian fairy tales?
Norwegian fairy tales? tell me more
I feel you're already well versed in such.
you do?
why?
Anyone born here is british as far as I’m concerned
I was born British, in Germany. That’s what my birth certificate says.
YOu have made a bunch of statements with no basis in fact<br /><br />
If you like Orwellthen down and out in paris and london and road to wigan pier are both discussions of poverty IIRC and Shooting an Elephant is about colonialism and racism
Which is his book that deals with racism and colonialism?
Burmese Days
Kelvin would you consider yourself british or german? and why?
Kelvin would you consider yourself british or german?
British. And I have no right to German citizenship as I have a British birth certificate. But none of that has mattered for most of my life…
and why?
It’s just a statement of fact. I have always been British. Despite being born elsewhere. Not so simple, is it?
No it's definitely not simple.
ta Gordimor thats the badger!
There is no black and white in any issue. Everything is a shade of grey, this is why I ask the questions. To try and become wiser
And then we have British people born in the Caribbean, treated as outsiders because people “considered” them not British, and the evidence that they were indeed British was destroyed. Those Brits were often deported or denied medical treatment because they or their parents were born “abroad”, despite having (but not being able to prove it through no fault of their own) as much right to British Citizenship as you or I. No, it’s never simple, and anyone claiming that being British is as simple as being “born here” can be led to support the mistreatment and degeneration of “others” as if it was somehow a virtue… that’s the space the Far Right operate in.
I completely agree. A shameful part of our history
I have no idea where BJ was born, please educate me.
The clue is in his name..... how many British men do you know called Boris? And de Pfeffel?
His great grandfather was a Turkish politician, so a proper foreigner.
And probably muslamic.
If he’s 1st gen immigrant and commits a crime deport him.
Why would you want him deported, if he committed a crime… but not someone who committed the same crime, but happened to be born here? Why would you treat him differently? Where does that come from? Do you want Johnson deported? I was caught shoplifting at 14, should I have been deported?
Well actually few of us are british seeing as the british peoples where pushed to the fringes by successive waves of immigration - those pesky Romans, Angles Saxons and Normans. Very few pure bred britons around.
Personally my DNA on one side has me as mainly Sami and the other the classic UK mix of German, French and Danish. all my ancestors have lived here for hundreds of years tho
I also feel less and less british as the years pass. England has moved away from me to become a place I no longer recognise. Scotland is my home
Everything is a shade of grey, this is why I ask the questions.
Well, to be fair, you actually proposed a pretty right wing position to a (for a long time lurker, as I'm sure you're aware) fairly left wing audience and then invited them to tell you whether they consider that to be a far right position. And they did.
And then rather than particularly tell us what you think, you just keep 'asking questions' in a way that is plausibly deniable but which has got a few a bit worked up. Which would be good if they didn't, but that's the way it goes.
So a question in return. Do you think your approach is at all comparable to https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/sealioning-internet-trolling and if it is then would you consider changing your approach to not appear that way?
If you commit a crime you should be treated equally under the law. So if you were to for example steal something you should be equally tried under our laws. A native thief and an immigrant thief should receive the same punishment, however after you’ve served your time the native thief is let back into society, the immigrant thief should be deported IMO
I have no idea what “native” means in this context (and from your posts neither do you), but being deported for a crime is a punishment, so in your description two people having committed the same crime would be treated differently by the law. Why would you want that to happen in the case of Farah? Where does that come from? What would Farah have to do to deserve equal treatment to you or I…? What more could he do that he hasn’t already done?
[ EDIT: we haven’t actually established that I should get equal treatment, being born British in Germany… should I? Should Boris Johnson? ]
