So it seems another liberal democracy has fallen under the spell of far right populism. The Netherlands of all places! When are mainstream centrist politicians in the western hemisphere going to wake up and smell the coffee?
Yeah, just saw that on ITV, looks Luke he won't be able to form a government but even so, it's not great.
Can you imagine voting for a politician that wants "Nexit" after seeing the turmoil it unleashed over here?
That's his least contentious "policy" too!
TBH of all the European democracies, the Dutch selecting a far-right leader surprises me the least.
whilst away cycling in Belgium this summer, we were sat having a sandwich in a park, and a bloke sat next to us said hello. we got talking, about our trip, his job ( collage teacher), the state of the UK now because of brexit.
i dont know what government is in charge in Belgium, but he said the in their next elections, the far right would take charge. and he said that most of europe would follow suit.
^^ lol, that gave me a chuckle.
The world seems to be moving towards the right, and im sure if we look back into history, thats just the state of play whenever war is on the horizon.
So some sort of global type conflict over the next decade, far above local skirmishes on the edge of Europe or limited to a single middle eastern country.
Hybrid warfare is being waged to weaken the western hemisphere
Burning the Quran in Sweden is one example where the object is to keep Sweden from joining NATO
Another example is transporting asylum seekers to Russia's borders with Finland and Estonia and from Belarus into Poland (all three are Schengen area countries)
Add in widespread manipulation of elections via social media and you have a heady cocktail of dissent
When are mainstream centrist politicians in the western hemisphere going to wake up and smell the coffee?
Too busy believing they are the progressive alternative whilst offering up a decade old Conservative 'solutions'.
Narrative of options is controlled by the right.
No one is offering a coherent, definite alternative that is being heard by the electorate
If the centre and mefia are now "right" tne only alternative for change people see is "far right".
People want a change, they don’t seem to care in what direction - don't mention the B word
People want a change, they don’t seem to care in what direction
See also; Argentina for exactly this reason.
Not surprised. Someone I work with gave up their Dutch nationality to become British of all things. He said it was always worse politically than this country and while admitting Singapore (where they worked for many years) was a bit of a dictatorship it was a better place to live than Netherlands or Britain when we were discussing the merits, or not, of democracy.
When are mainstream centrist politicians in the western hemisphere going to wake up and smell the coffee?
It's not just the politicians who should be asking themselves searching questions.
Look at the political discourse on here, everybody needs to have a ****ing word with themselves.
The choice at the next election needs to be between a better short term life for the individual, or a better medium/long term life for society as a whole. With a heavy emphasis on how policy for the last 50-60 years has widened inequalities not reduced them.
Neither of our two main parties seem willing to do that. Let's hope our far right don't offer the alternative.
I think one of the main issues is it's much easier to manipulate the right/far-right mindset and never before has misinformation and conspiracy theory BS been so easy to propagate to the masses. If someone is having a shitty time in their lives it's much easier to blame it on others (immigrants, minorities etc.) as that's what mass media and social media is usually pushing as the problem (the latter also being a vicious circle of algorithms pushing more and more misinformation and hateful content to you the more you click on it).
Unfortunately I don't really see it getting any better any time soon, I was hoping the younger generation(s) with more awareness might be the solution (it's no coincidence parts of the GOP in the US is pushing for a voting age increase) but over time I think enough of them fall victim to the manipulation that at best the right maintains enough voters to keep it in power (or close enough to it to still have a lot of influence).
Benevolent dictators might be the answer (they could ban all organised religion to whilst they're at it...) but they don't exist in reality (at least not for long).
The parties of "the people" have been taken over by neoliberalism, and are offering working people no hope. So when the populist offer false hope and lies it is far more attractive.
Also, I assume that we are labeling the tories as far right as well? They seem to be filling the same political space.
Not really a surprise is it when mass (illegal, economic) immigration has been a concern for many for well over a decade. They don't feel listened to, they see the fabric of their home towns / cities change for the worse so they vote for someone who they think will fix it.
It will begin to happen over here too if / when the option is on the table.
Look at the political discourse on here, everybody needs to have a **** word with themselves.
And what would those words be? (Other than "wake up and smell the coffee".)
The Netherlands of all places!
Guessing you haven't spent much time or had much contact with the Dutch, then.
It will begin to happen over here too if / when the option is on the table.
It’s well underway already. It delivered us Brexit, surely the high watermark of right-wing, anti-immigrant, nationalist populism.
There wouldn't have even been a referendum if the Tory party weren't so terrified of the rise of UKIP and the nationalist right, which they've now completely morphed into.
And Brexit has worked out so well. You can't just give simple solutions to complex problems? Who knew? Don't worry though... The ‘Betrayal’ myth is already being peddled to explain its abject failure. When the Tories lose the election next May, they’ll double down on this, elect a far right wingnut like Braverman as leader and head off to the ground previously occupied by Tommy Robinson.
Unfortunately, I don’t doubt that they will find a large receptive audience. Don't forget that Sunak sacked Braverman not because he disagreed with her proto-fascist outpourings but because she had her tanks on his lawn
Guessing you haven’t spent much time or had much contact with the Dutch, then.
This. There is always a gulf between the image tourists get of NL and the experience of people actually living there. It's the first and only place I've felt unwelcome as foreigner - and I'm a pale-skinned bloke.
It will begin to happen over here too if / when the option is on the table.
It is an option in the UK too right now. And yet the Tory Party and all the parties to the right of it are currently deeply unpopular.
The largest party in Westminster after the next general election will without a shadow of a doubt be the Labour Party.
One of the reasons for this is that all attempts by the Tories to stoke up a racist and divisive culture war has failed to bring them any benefits, not that they appear to be giving up.
What might change the fortunes of the UK far-right is the failure of a Starmer Labour government to deliver significant change.
Which is something for "centrists" who claim that the only thing that really matters is getting rid of the Tories, and that there is no need for a radical alternative, to think about.
who cares it'll be a couple of small islands in 120 years :/
There is an issue whereby centre-right parties lose votes to the far right, so move right themselves to try and keep that vote share. So far this hasn't really worked for any of them (see Conservatives/UKIP, CDU/AfD etc.)
What will be interesting is whether any of the other parties will go into coalition with PVV or whether it'll turn into a French-style far right vs. anyone else situation.
I think viewing it as the high watermark is probably naïve to be honest, I think it’s just the start.
Apologies. I was talking past tense. I should have added '....so far'
I don't doubt for a minute that we ain't seen nothing yet. The Tory party has moved further and further to the right since the Brexit vote and have left themselves with nowhere to go only further in that direction, having purged all the moderates and reinvented themselves as UKIP/The BNP. Somewhere our own plastic fascists like Braverman are only to ready to take them.
I wouldn't have thought they'd have enough support to win elections from there, but who knows? We said that about Brexit. Theres clearly a large pool of voters who are receptive to this narrative they're peddling
Knew there would be tears on here from those who opposes the result of a democratic vote. Cry harder leftists. Lolz.
Knew there would be tears on here from those who opposes the result of a democratic vote
Not liking a result is very different to opposing a result.
Think harder.
When are mainstream centrist politicians in the western hemisphere going to wake up and smell the coffee?
When are ordinary folk going to work out that having the far right in power has never being beneficial to them?
Hiya,
On a humorous note for all of this. Have you noticed all the far right politicians have disastrous hair cuts!
I know it isn't helping but it helps me anyway 😉
JeZ
The Tory party has moved further and further to the right since the Brexit vote
That's actually not true. In 2015 the Tories were still strongly pro-austerity, after that Theresa May and Boris Johnson moved the party to the left with significant increases in public spending.
Liz Truss's election as leader just over a year ago did however signal a further shift to the right.
The rise of the far right is a symptom of the failure, in the West, of the neoliberalism that rose in line with the increase in political influence and power of capitalist forces. Vast tomes, and countless words have been written on the subject, but essentially it boils down to the greed of those capitalist forces, and neoliberalism's failure to keep those from undermining true democracy and representation of all people within society. This has led to wealthy elites and even individuals, exercising far more political power than anyone else; look at how for example Rupert Murdoch was allowed to become so influential in dictating the direction of Western politics, particularly in the UK and USA. How industries had unfettered access to politicians, to undermine trade unions and any notion of workers representation. How environmental concerns have been ignored in favour of profit. And socially, how communities have been broken up, traditional frameworks of society have been eroded to leave people in ever-smaller groups, increasingly fearful of losing what little 'security' they have. Divide et impera.
This situation serves industries and corporations very well; a submissive, servile workforce with little or no power to influence pay, working conditions or any form of job security. An erosion of workers' rights has aided employers, but left employees with progressively less over time. 'Economists' will cite average earnings and other obfuscation as a way of trying to claim that people have 'more', and indeed through easy credit and the flood of consumer goods, it does look that people are doing 'better', but the reality is that institutions such as education, healthcare and social protection/support have been stripped to the bone. You might have the latest iPhone (on 24 months interest free credit), but you have to wait 4 times as long for an operation, and your health declines. Your kids can't afford to go to college or university. Your nan dies alone and afraid, in some rotten care home. Consumerism is the illusion behind which capitalism serves the ruling elites. But now we're seeing a decline in even that 'spending power'; an increase in the percentage of your income you need to spend on housing, leaves you with less for the other things in life, particularly luxuries. In times of plenty, people have little need to worry about losing what they have; in the lean times, fear and anxiety grow. And the right and far-right seize upon such fear to sow seeds of hate and division. History has taught us this, again and again and again. Divide et impera.
As politics has been dragged so far to the right, it seems an impossible task to wrench it back from the grip of fascism. The traditional networks of the left have allowed their factionalism and infighting to weaken their position, and for the right to present a far more 'united' front. This has inevitably become more attractive to voters, hence the popularity of figures such as Nigel Farage, Geert Wilders, Marine Le Pen, Giorgia Meloni, Victor Orban and of course, Donald Trump. Eventually, their ultimately nihilistic brand of politics will collapse, and there will once again be a slide to the left. But the last time that happened, Europe was left in ruins and ten of millions of innocent people had been murdered. And the world said 'never again'. But the world was naive, and foolish. And now here we are; Again.
Divide et impera.
Have you noticed all the far right politicians have disastrous hair cuts
I'm guessing it's because their image consultants tell them to avoid looking too "metropolitan elite" or "metrosexual" or whatever you want to call it. I very much doubt it's something they haven't considered.
The Netherlands of all places!
Guessing you haven’t spent much time or had much contact with the Dutch
Nearest I've ever been to being beaten up was many years ago when I was entertaining Dutch colleagues in an Indian restaurant in Bradford. My colleague beckoned the waiter by calling "hey black boy" it took a lot of diplomacy to smooth that one out.
My colleague beckoned the waiter by calling “hey black boy” it took a lot of diplomacy to smooth that one out.
One of my mates was in the Netherlands with work late in the year. He'd gone out for a few post-work drinks with some Dutch colleagues. Enter Swarte Piet stage left.
My friend was horrified, the Dutch just couldn't see the problem.
I've always thought it'd be a toss up between the French or the Dutch.
Whilst racism obviously is a problem everywhere in the case of the French I reckon that chauvinism is often conflated with bigotry.
The French, relatively speaking, are deeply chauvinistic, they even invented the word!
And to be fair they have a lot of reasons to be.....just think of Edith Piaf, camembert, baguettes, cote du Rhone, and a world renowned ability to be romantic.
Which is something for “centrists” who claim that the only thing that really matters is getting rid of the Tories, and that there is no need for a radical alternative, to think about.
This is what I was getting at with my wake up and smell the coffee comment. This thread again amply demonstrates the hubris of centrists. All the moaning about brexit and the tories being 'far right' and all we need is a 'sensible' alternative - presumably in the form of Starmer and his fellow centrist technocrats - to prevent the same thing happening here as has happened in Italy, the US, Hungary, the Netherlands etc. The 'sensible' alternative is what is going to take us down the same path, probably with someone like Farage at the helm. If the labour party and other so-called 'liberal' politicians don't start listening to people and giving them what they want then we'll end up on the same road.
It's not "all we need", it's the only first step that the UK as a whole can make.
we’ll end up on the same road.
Of course it will. This is democracy. Give people the chance to vote for stuff and they'll vote for it. The history of the advancement of society will always be; is always going to be this long slow grinding pull/push to equality and equity.
There is no other way it works.
daveylad
Free Member
Knew there would be tears on here from those who opposes the result of a democratic vote. Cry harder leftists. Lolz.
He won a minority of the vote, hence needs a coalition.
Secondly, he's already announcing he's willing to compromise on his policies to get a coalition together.
So within 24 hours hrs already showing that it's not really about what he believes in, it's about getting to the feeding trough. The far right types never actually achieve anything once reality hits. "Build the wall, reduce immigration, stop the boats." Yeah...
Sabotaged by those bloody leftists I suppose, eh?😉
Do that have I'm a celebrity over there?... He needs a plan B.
is to embrace the far left.
What do you call "the far left"?
I am intrigued.
There is an issue whereby centre-right parties lose votes to the far right, so move right themselves to try and keep that vote share. So far this hasn’t really worked for any of them
Depends if they drag the "centre" rightwards after them. Whilst it hasnt worked for the parties it has worked for their supporters and backers.
What do you call “the far left”?
I guess it's not really about what we call it, it's about what the swing-voters call it. Those who might be tempted to move to a centerist Labour, but not one they consider to be "too far" to the left.
How you define it, and how you fix it is the million dollar question.
embrace the far left.
What you call the far left was centre-right consensus a couple of decades ago. You're being gaslighted into believing something that is not in your interests. Like I said, wake the **** up!
Oh, so far he's ditched:
Banning the Koran.
Nexit.
Banning mosques.
Early days, within 24 hours he'll be left with, "immigration- bad"
Reality is a bit further to the left it seems...
Oh, They do have a version of I'm a Celebrity.
It's called "Bobo's in the bush"... So he has his plan B in place.
Politics is only relative. Not absolute. The centre always shifts with the passing of time, so trying to relate political alignments to the standards of the past is a waste of time. Who would’ve guessed 40 years ago that a Tory Prime Minister would enact a law to enable gay marriage?
What do you call “the far left”?
I guess it’s not really about what we call it, it’s about what the swing-voters call it.
I beg to differ. If you call this far left:
https://keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
There is a reasonable chance that "swing-voters" will call it far left.
If however you call it 'necessary immediate policies which will benefit ordinary people' there is a reasonable chance that they will be more receptive.
Who would’ve guessed 40 years ago that a Tory Prime Minister would enact a law to enable gay marriage?
Good example. A positive step forward, taken by a right of centre coalition... but what did it do? It resulted in many political activists moving from the Conservative party to UKIP... another nugget for the far right to feed on. Similar occurs in the Netherlands... it's not just economic issues that the far right feed on, but social progress.
EDIT: oh good, this is turning into “that thread” that everyone avoids… forget it
dazh
As if. I'd settle for the rich paying their taxes, my kids being able to go to university without putting themselves tens of thousands in debt, and being able to get a GP appointment or not having to wait 12 hours in A&E. Apparently these things are no longer 'affordable' or 'practical' when they were 20 years ago. I'm sick of centrist politicians telling us this stuff is too difficult or too expensive, and I doubt I'm the only one.
oh good, this is turning into “that thread” that everyone avoids… forget it
That's because this is all connected. The core problem in this country and others in the west is a complete failure of leadership. The people who want to lead us are not interested in actually doing anything that helps us, and the result will be the rise of the likes of Farage et al.
The Dutch like all other European. Countries, except UK and Belarus, have some flavour of proportional representation, so having to be in coalition to gain power ensures that the worst excesses don't happen because of the more liberal coalition partner. Something similar happened in Poland and Spain.
UK has no such safety mechanism hence this tory shower on just 43% of the votes.
Ultimately have to vote tactically to #GTTO
You’re being gaslighted into believing something that is not in your interests. Like I said, wake the **** up!
Ah yes... that old chestnut. Don't tell me.... we're all unthinking drones? Capitalist stooges and slaves to the military-industrial complex? Mere corporate lackies? Totally incapable of independent thought? Needing our opinions spoon fed to us by Murdoch and GB News?
Does that about cover it?
Whereas you and your enlightened fellow travellers possess not only superior intellect, but a unique insight and all the answers?
I don't know why more people aren't naturally drawn to the far left, because they're not at all sanctimonious, preachy, superior, condescending and partonising in the least...
I don’t know why more people aren’t naturally drawn to the far left, because they’re not at all sanctimonious, preachy, superior, condescending and partonising in the least…
Mr Irony doesnt pay you many visits does he?
Klunk
Free Member
It’s one of the vagaries of PR a far right party can achieve a “massive” “shock” “victory” (channelling my inner Daily Fail) with 23.5% of the vote. It’s what the tories are polling at the moment :/ .
That is the paradox isn't it?
Overall I'm in favour of PR but what you said is correct.
Any thoughts on this aspect of PR anyone? Genuine question by the way!
If they want to govern, they will have to do so on a policy platform that is not entirely their own. Where as with our voting system a minority share of the vote can allow a party to rule without concessions to any voters that did not vote for them.
Any thoughts on this aspect of PR anyone?
Although they have got the highest votes they still need to go into coalition with someone else which will, likely, moderate their position.
I would argue its less problematic than fptp where they can effectively hijack another party anyway.
Plus of course its also democratic and is an argument for the other parties to put forward better arguments to attract those voters away. As opposed to just chasing swing voters.
Any thoughts on this aspect of PR anyone? Genuine question by the way!
Never been a supporter of PR. This is one of the reasons, the main one though is because it encourages/enables inaction and inertia, which gives vested interests the opportunity to prevent change for the better. On the surface PR looks like a great way to achieve 'consensus', in reality though it just results in nothing much happening. When things don't work - and lots of stuff isn't working right now - we need to change course and try something else. I think most voters understand that, which is why far right snake oil salesmen are doing well at the moment, because their supposed 'serious' opponents don't seem to get it.
Any thoughts on this aspect of PR anyone? Genuine question by the way!
In Spain the biggest party gets the first chance at forming a government (including other parties as junior members of the coalition). If they fail to get the votes, the second biggest gets a go. Which is what has happened this time round.
I’d settle for the rich paying their taxes, my kids being able to go to university without putting themselves tens of thousands in debt, and being able to get a GP appointment
Says every far-whatever snake oil salesman when they're on the election stump, throw in a little them and us tribalism to make them feel like they're the downtrodden and bingo...
Never been a supporter of PR. This is one of the reasons, the main one though is because it encourages/enables inaction and inertia, which gives vested interests the opportunity to prevent change for the better.
The irony here is that this is exactly what has happened in the UK
Seems astonishingly myopic to claim the UK is better off with FPTP
Says every far-whatever snake oil salesman when they’re on the election stump
You think these things aren't achievable? It's not a lot to ask IMO, yet it seems beyond the imagination or capability of most mainstream politicians. If democracy isn't capable of delivering such basic requirements, then what's the point in it?
Seems astonishingly myopic to claim the UK is better off with FPTP
What we're experiencing in the UK isn't a result of FPTP, it's the result of unchallenged corporate power and it's influence on politics. FPTP is probably the best/only opportunity of changing things, but it needs politicians who have the courage, motivation and capability to do it.
This has just popped up on my twitter - looks like the UK would like their politicians to be more accountable:
What we’re experiencing in the UK isn’t a result of FPTP, it’s the result of unchallenged corporate power and it’s influence on politics
But that unchallenged corporate power's influence is because the tories are taking their donations from them. If we had a PR system, all of us who don't like the way the tories do politics would have created a counterbalance, with a more representative parliament, to the free rein they have, and the corporates wouldn't have so much influence.
As it is FPTP gave the Tories an 80 seat majority on less than 50%, and an untrammellled ability to take the p1ss
Have you noticed all the far right politicians have disastrous hair cuts!
Johnson and this Dutch git know perfectly well. They could have a good haircut and suit, but they're signalling they don't care too much about your boring conventions. Trump otoh really thinks he looks good.
When are ordinary folk going to work out that having the far right in power has never being beneficial to them?
Maybe a decade or two, maybe more. Either way, they've pretty much figured out that neo-liberal centrist parties are not much use either.
A lot of right-wing regimes survived large parts of the 20th century due to geopolitical factors and cheap, accessible oil. This time, people electing far-right parties has a very desperate and end-of-the-road feel to it. Holland could lock up every single migrant and it will solve few, if any problems. What is so depressing about the situation is that right-wing parties offer no real solutions since the actual solutions go completely against their DNA.
For me, people are clearly realizing that something is, indeed, up. The lifestyle of the late and early 20/21st century is slowly slipping away from millions of citizens. They are angry, but when this is expressed politically, it manifests as blame. Take 20mph zones or ULEZ for instance, if only those communist-hippy councilors would go away, our problems would be solved. Of course, this is a fantasy.
The absurd and tragic element this is that as inequality, climate change, and the results of politically corrupt governments amount to little more than prostitutes for corporations increase, those on the right will pivot and blame the solutions, entrenching the negative effects while as those negative effects become more acute, citizens demand more and more extreme policies.
FPTP is probably the best/only opportunity of changing things, but it needs politicians who have the courage, motivation and capability to do it.
FPTP requires very large coalitions/alliances to be formed BEFORE the public get to vote. Compromise is baked in before elections. If you want more MPs prepared to act outside the parameters required by that reality... and the chance for them to build support for their agenda from within parliament, then some form of PR is required.
But that unchallenged corporate power’s influence is because the tories are taking their donations from them. If we had a PR system
Right now the Germans are having a somewhat dark night of the soul because they've realised that their reliance on cheap Russian Gas and Oil, and the corporate greed that fuelled (excuse pun) it has consequences. PR systems aren't any more immune to the sorts of corporate gerrymandering than we see in FPTP. Political parties will always be the target of large vested interests.
Europe needs a broad political consensus like it saw in 1945. Hopefully without the 6 years of horror that proceeded it. But the challenges that we face now, be they environmental, political, media driven, technological are all so massive that without collective agreement we're all going to struggle. The rise of far right and populism is the growing pains/ rejection of that (for some; horrible) truth.
Compromise is baked in before elections
Not much compromise baked into the Oven Ready Deal offered in 2019. Single issue of Brexit, and now everything they are doing is clearly counter to what opinion polls tell us the British electorate want.
My take away was why do we need 650 odd MPs if the Dutch only need 150. That would save us a few quid
those on the right will pivot blame the precise solutions to our problems, entrenching the negative effects while consolidating power.
With the enthusiastic help of those who spend all their time ranting about loony lefties and sixth formers. 🙄
(great post BTW, agree with every word)
PR [...]. encourages/enables inaction and inertia,
yeah, but does it have downsides?
As someone who elects themselves as very much a centrist albeit not a sit on the fence type but a best of both less of the worst, this has been quite interesting to read.
