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The Welsh players should learn to throw themselves to ground a little more theatrically.
Shenanigans with the pitch were commonplace, watering/not watering, marking the pitch to favour your team's style (I'm looking at you, Arsenal, at the old Highbury) length of the grass etc, etc.
Extra time tends to make teams play not to lose, although if they keep the extra subs rule too, the bigger teams will like it. Deeper squads with fresh legs should have no trouble finishing off the smaller clubs in ET.
Moore received one of the softest yellows in living memory...
Wales are all over the place.
And then Moore gets fouled in the build up. I guess VAR tried to rewind the tape that far but the VCR ate it.
Moore tried to plant the seed in his press conference saying he does t get fair calls from the officials because of his size. That backfired.
Williams thrown in cold and and hasn't found his composure. Although that cross was very nice.
Denmark showing the benefit of their experience.
Moore received one of the softest yellows in living memory
Yep. An early yellow like that will substantially limit your play, especially if you're a traditional British target man
Wales just look knackered. Too much travelling.
Anyone else think the Danish manager looks a bit like Björn from ABBA?
Yep. An early yellow like that will substantially limit your play, especially if you’re a traditional British target man
I'm absolutely sure the Dane knew that as he stood there like a statue waiting for Moore to breathe on him.
Anyone else think the Danish manager looks a bit like Björn from ABBA?
Hadn't really noticed. One of the Welsh coaches looks a lot like a coach from the Prem. Chelsea?
The danes even dive when the ref touches them.
Well, I enjoyed the first 10 minutes.
Well done Denmark, well deserved winners.
Wales just look knackered. Too much travelling.
Their heads have dropped. Denmark have done a superb job of compressing the space, marked Ramsey out of the game, pushed Bale out to where his threat is diminished. Outside the first 15 minutes Wales have been beating themselves against the Danish block. They are frustrated and that is tiring.
Followed by the softest red I've seen
Frustrated. Willing to take a yellow.
Wales not exactly covering themselves in glory.
Look at the replay, he never touched him. Referee is totally incompetent. Has VAR gone home.
Look at the replay, he never touched him
I didn’t think he’d made contact either.
Denmark much better but what was going in with the reffing? Two really weird cards, some odd foul decisions and how was Braithwaite not offside at the end?
Real shame. Outplayed on the day but the way they went out was not reflective of their performance in total. Some very dodgy calls there. Which increased their frustration. Since VAR doesn't seem to be there to make the game 'fair' might as well dump it. Or flip a coin.
Wales travelled 5300 miles Denmark 350. They were only 1 down at halftime after that tiredness and the ref changed the result.
I think Denmark would have won anyway but not by 4.
Wales travelled 5300 miles Denmark 350. They were only 1 down at halftime after that tiredness and the ref changed the result.
I'd expect teams and players at this level to know how to cope with that sort of travel by now. I think Williams lack of calm, the lack of call on Moore and the second goal really took the wind out of them. Concede that early in the second half for those reasons makes you feel like the pitch is tilted against you and you are running uphill. The Danes were having more issues with cramp and tight muscles late on than Wales. Then again they'd worked their socks off with their press.
Strange tournament for Wales really.
Done well to reach the knockout stage while also underperforming.
Apart from Turkey game, we have been hammered in every game and lucky to scrape a point against Swiss. Possibly last chance for current mix of classy older players and decent youngsters.
It just never clicked.
It s the downside to having a couple of real quality players like Bale and Ramsey. Wales have decent players elsewhere but when you have them, you tend to rely on them and not really play as a team. Even Croatia has suffered from that with Modric
I was thinking it was more a case of opponents being able to neutralise the two quality players and the others aren't consistent enough to cause trouble of their own.
I was thinking it was more a case of opponents being able to neutralise the two quality players and the others aren’t consistent enough to cause trouble of their own.
Yeah, it's the flip side of that. If Ramsay is triple covered and Bale is pushed out to the corner flag, do you keep trying to get them the ball, knowing they'll struggle to do anything or do you look to bring the other 9 guys into the game, they may not be as good or consistent but it's only got to work once or twice. It's tough to break that habit (see Croatia). In this case Wales looked pretty good when the moved the ball to the opposite wing to Bale. I suspect relying on Bale and Ramsey means that's not a natural thing for them to do though.
So a guy is offside by a good car length and plays the ball. Do you
A) let play continue for a couple of minutes, making the defending team work really hard completely unnecessarily, possibly costing them later in the game, then when they do win the ball back and look to counter quickly, blow the whistle for the offside that most people have forgotten about.
or
B) Put the effing flag up as soon as the guy who was 3 yards offside plays the effing ball
What is wrong with these officials.
I raised this earlier in the thread. I'd always go b.
I raised this earlier in the thread. I’d always go b.
Oh, I'm sorry. Even though that's the correct answer, you are wrong and will never officiate a game. Now let's meet the next contestant on This is how many wrongs make a right.
Never officiated only played. It's why I now limp. Many knee and ankle ops.
VAR taking a lot longer for a Wembley based game? Is it an English thing?
Brexit, innit. The feed has to pass the border checks on the way to and from Lyon.
Thought the commentator had suggested the VAR was at the usual Stockley Park or whatever its called?
Oh, maybe. My understanding was that it would all be done out of Uefa HQ in Nyon. The VAR teams would all operate out of there.
That had been my assumption as well, but there was a comment when they were waiting for the review of the Austrian goal
What is wrong with these officials.
Which ones? It's not the guys on the field, they are doing as they are told.... it's the instructions they've been given by the governing body and IFAB. Who clearly have got the balance wrong when that sort of thing happens, but when it's close it still has to be the lesser of two evils to see what would have happened in case.
Unless we go back to accepting that fallability of on field officials is part of the game, but in doing so stop players, managers and commentators complaining when it happens. Which I'm increasingly in favour of because VAR is becoming more of a story than the games themselves.
Has anyone ever watched extra time and not thought ‘well that’s half an hour of my life I’ll never get back’?
Humble pie anyone?
Best 30mins of football today.
Unlucky Austria. Gave it a good go.
Which ones? It’s not the guys on the field, they are doing as they are told….
Are they though? I've seen nothing which says they must delay the flag when an offside is so obvious. They are supposed to delay for an immediate goal scoring opportunity, but may flag when the opportunity is gone. By the time you've passed the ball around the top of the box for a couple of minutes and the defence is nicely organised, I think it's not just passed, it's caught the number 97 home and is halfway through it's fish and chip tea.
They are suppose to delay, rather than flag in haste and make a mistake, which cannot then be corrected. Again, that one was so obvious there was no chance of a mistake.
It didn't go to VAR, it was called in the field, so he was going to call it anyway.
So that one wasn't a VAR problem, it was a common sense problem.
Unlucky Austria. Gave it a good go.
Needed a deeper bench, or a manager willing to gamble with his subs a bit earlier. It was the fatigue wot done it.
It was the fatigue wot done it.
Yeah. They should've gone for it in the last 10 of the 90. They seemed to step off the gas to keep something back for extra time.
I haven't seen the guidance, I certainly wasn't in the comms and training sessions the officials go to at these tournaments. I've only seen or read other 'expert' interpretation - articles/interviews with eg: Clattenburg, Walton but you've 'rubbished' his opinion before.
So no, I am suggesting an opinion based on what I've read. Doesn't mean they always get it right, no, and some have been so obviously 'not close' I question really why they can't be flagged immediately too - but I believe they have been told to apply a margin of error in favour of continuation of play and see what happens, and sometimes that margin is way off to make it laughable.
Do you have anything to suggest they've not been told to delay flagging when it's obvious? And what's the definition of obvious?
This is from the IFAB VAR protocols:
"Delaying the flag/whistle for an offence is only permissible in a very clear attacking situation when a player is about to score a goal or has a clear run into/towards the opponents’ penalty area
If an assistant referee delays a flag for an offence, the assistant referee must raise the flag if the attacking team scores a goal, is awarded a penalty kick, free kick, corner kick or throw-in, or retains possession of the ball after the initial attack has ended; in all other situations, the assistant referee should decide whether or not to raise the flag, depending on the requirements of the game."
Note the "if". That seems to indicate they don't have to. This seems in keeping with the common sense approach they previously stated (the Prem initially went agaisnt official advice and the asst flagged and left it to the ref to decide whether to stop the game. That changed for 2020/21 - the advice became flag immediately for obvious ones, don't flag for tight calls until the phase has ended, in line with the official advice) regarding not flagging because if you are wrong, you may have cost them a goal. If there is no chance you are wrong, there really is no risk. Plus once the player has brought the ball down and played it back the to top of the box, that would seem to be the retaining the ball, with the original attack ended.
The part they did get correct, which made it worse, was that there is no advantage on an offside.
articles/interviews with eg: Clattenburg, Walton but you’ve ‘rubbished’ his opinion before.
When they stick to the stuff they know from when they were active, they are better. Since they no longer have access to the actual briefings, some of the things they say are deeply suspect, some is plain wrong. Walton wrote a piece in the Independent? Explaining something, which was the polar opposite of what UEFA said. The game has moved on a lot since they were active.
Thanks
So I think (opinion) the problem comes more from this part - "in all other situations, the assistant referee should decide whether or not to raise the flag, depending on the requirements of the game.”
If the defending team wins clear possession of the ball then there's no need to flag. What does clear possession mean? - in the past particularly for a UK football watcher, having a lumbering centre back 'in clear possession' on the edge of their own penalty area was a liability and we'll have a free kick and the chance to clear 70 yards upfield please.
But - and I'm sure it will have happened in the same way that it happens with an attacking advantage, but I can't point to an example - with sides being so adept at counter attacking now, there may be an advantage to allowing play to continue. As IFAB say - "the assistant referee must raise the flag if the attacking team scores a goal, is awarded a penalty kick, free kick, corner kick or throw-in, or retains possession of the ball after the initial attack has ended"
- simply retaining possession while that attack continues is not enough to cause the assistant to flag. How much longer do they allow before the attack is considered over?
Theoretical example - winger is put through but is 'clearly' offside to the assistant; does not immediately flag. Winger crosses, attacker heads back across goal - possession still retained...... but still no need to flag, the goal/PK/FK etc criteria still not met.
so i/ midfielder running into box gets on end of knock down, goal scored, flag up. VAR checked if needed, outcome correct.
ii/ goalkeeper beats midfielder to ball, immediately throws to team mate who exploits space created by midfielder's run, counter attack and goal for the 'offended against' team.
It's allowing for ii/ to happen that makes some of these flags seem ridiculously late, and why flags are not going up for 'obvious' offsides. They are doing exactly as the IFAB guideline says and flagging "if the attacking team scores a goal, is awarded a penalty kick, free kick, corner kick or throw-in, or retains possession of the ball after the initial attack has ended"
Where the potential issues arise, I'll admit
iii/ goalkeeper clatters attacker in going for the knock back and both suffer career ending injuries. Clearly a potential issue, no escaping that.
iv/ GK claims knock back (defending team is now in clear possession), throws ball to teammate who loses it immediately to an attacker and then a new attack starts (initial attack over). My understanding is that the assistant would not flag for that. It's effectively the same as the attacking advantage where an attacker 'rides a foul challenge' then totally muffs the clear chance allowed by the advantage and wants to come back for the foul. Different to rugby; the advantage is not the outcome, but allowing there to be an outcome. And also incidentally part of why I think attackers now dive so readily, because the advantage of a PK is so much more than many open play chances.
and re Walton / Clattenburg and interpretation instructions to the officiating cohort at tournaments. If only they'd release clear versions of those instructions to TV, media, and the public - and of course the media and pundits actually were to read it - then we'd avoid these discussions about whether PW actually knows what was said.
If the defending team wins clear possession of the ball then there’s no need to flag. What does clear possession mean?
I must admit that I haven't checked to see if it is still there but the interpretation was that there is no advantage to be played in the case of offside. Possession would use the same def'n as the one that nullified offside by possession by the defending team - deliberate control or words to that effect. I suspect the reason is that if a defender clanks his clearance off a teammate straight to the guy who was offisde originally but now isn't because it was played by an opponent then the defending team would go ballistic that you didn't call the original offside.
simply retaining possession while that attack continues is not enough to cause the assistant to flag. How much longer do they allow before the attack is considered over?
I think the 1st para covers that "clear opportunity etc." If you are through on goal, don't get away a shot/scuff it/trip over the ball but your team retains possession then the danger of scoring has passed. The asst flags because it doesnt matter if he's wrong, the guy who was/wasn't offside didn't score.
It certainly seems to official advice for this tournament is not the same as it was for the previous season. The Prem instructions are clear, flag if it's obvious. I don't know what they are playing at because it makes no sense. Once the very clear attacking situation when a player is about to score a goal or has a clear run into/towards the opponents’ penalty area is done, flag up if you think it's offside. The other part just means if the assistant thinks the game should be stopped for the free kick. You could certainly let the keeper kick it upfield, what's the difference between that and a free kick, but I believe that would come under rule 18, common sense, but not follow the laws as written.
UEFA do press briefings on rule changes etc for the tournaments but they don't get into great detail afaik. They don't want to give too much away because then the press may criticise the officiating using their own words against them. The PGMOL is much better, they'll explain odd calls during the game to broadcast outfits.
You also have to remember that a lot of the in game commentary is provided by people hired by UEFA/FIFA and know damn well that they will never get another gig if they say anything controversial. Hence the bland "the officiating has been a very high standard" when a replay shows they've got it massively wrong.
The head of the tournament has explained why Sterling's foot getting stepped on wasn't a penalty and Alabas was - not enough contact. Which just makes them look worse.
Plus tbh refereeing is insanely political at the top levels and I bet there is a lot of score settling going on. Walton and Clattenburg are there to make things interesting, not necessarily to say that of course it was a pen. That leaves 2 minutes of dead air.
I suspect the reason is that if a defender clanks his clearance off a teammate straight to the guy who was offisde originally but now isn’t because it was played by an opponent then the defending team would go ballistic that you didn’t call the original offside.
I agree, but you can say the same about an advantage given for an obvious foul where the ball then runs to an attacker who subsequently bollockses it up. That's what I'm trying to say when I say that in football the advantage is the situation created by the advantage and not the outcome, whereas in rugby it's both - they play the advantage and then if you screw it up (knock on, go offside, etc.) then can still come back.
In the olden days, it would have been easy - there's no advantage to having the ball on the edge of your own box - only danger, so play the freekick whatever. For better, I think, counterattacking is now so fast and so good, sometimes a stretched field is a bigger possible advantage that a dead ball and reset.
Anyway - Dutch looking good already.
I agree, but you can say the same about an advantage given for an obvious foul where the ball then runs to an attacker who subsequently bollockses it up.
True - the major difference is a change in possession doesn't nullify a foul and if the forward drops a bollock that's his own fault. If the ref waited and an anticipated advantage doesn't materialize he can always bring it back for a foul bit not for an offside.
That ref did really well. When the Dutch went down a man they were pulling every diving, conniving, snide trick in the book to win a penalty, get a Czech player sent off. He was having none of it but didn't make a big deal of it. Let them blow themselves out. The game could have turned into a nasty hackfest but I think his management was excellent. He even let de Jong moan himself out.
An excellent quarter final, a great game, where a top team gets knocked out by a lesser team (reputation wise) and the first thing you wanna discuss is the reffing? Are you a ref? It’s probably the only logical reason I can think of for being so utterly boring.
RM.
Wales have a huddle, the Czechs have a mosh pit!
The path to the finals for the winner of England/Germany is starting to look a bit of a formality.
t’s probably the only logical reason I can think of for being so utterly boring
Don't overthink it, it's just who you are.
Fair play to the Czech Republic. I don’t know where that team was against England. (I look forward to a really interesting tactical treatise on it…) The Euros are hard aren’t they?!
It really does feel like anything could happen from here out…maybe France being the most nailed on to go through. Then again, Shaq could have one of those games. Who knows. I hope he does something special to send Les Cheats Bleus home. 😃
But to be honest, I’d much rather talk about when the assistant referee should raise his or her flag.
Looking forward to the 8 o’clock kick off!
Fair play to the Czech Republic. I don’t know where that team was against England.
They did well (or rode their luck) early on to weather the storm. The Dutch seems to blow themselves out after the first 20 minutes. I thought the Czechs were playing a suicidally high line, which they didn't get punished for, which is surprising when you look at the Dutch side. Mallon misses a one on one with the keeper. Once they were a man down they lost there heads and the Czechs did well to use their extra man.
But to be honest, I’d much rather talk about when the assistant referee should raise his or her flag.
Funnily enough, the ditch striker came back from an offside position (and he travelled 20 yards to do it, which was impressive) to challenge for a ball and the flag went up immediately. Discuss.
Discuss.
I’m sure you and tojv will debate/analyse it for us. Looking forward to it.
This one should be a corker.
What do we reckon then? Another Ronnie masterclass?
m sure you and tojv will debate/analyse it for us. Looking forward to it.
Maybe. If you are interested, join in. If not, skip those posts. It's an open discussion forum, not everything floats everyone's boat.
This one should be a corker.
What do we reckon then? Another Ronnie masterclass?
I'm interested to see how Lukaku does. His scoring record against the top 6 in the Prem was really bad. I suspect He won't do much. One of de Bruyne's screamers from range to settle it?
Maybe you could allow others to have a discussion instead of replying to every comment with a flood of beige.
It's a service we're providing so even the uninitiated can enjoy the intricacies of our beautiful game.
Maybe you could allow others to have a discussion instead of replying to every comment with a flood of beige.
Maybe. Or you could post something about the Euros instead of telling people what they are allowed to post. You do know that you can post something even though someine else is too?
I'm not sure what you find beige.
Moar great game! Another thriller! needed? Or more technical analysis? You tell me what am allowed to post.
I see the ‘spot the attractive female in the crowd’ cameramen have got their eye back in after a year without crowds, bless ‘em
i find my enjoyment of any sport is increased by an understanding of the laws and tactics / techniques. YMMV. Otherwise it's like the unsatisfactory experience of having to watch a world cup game with my MiL who spent the whole time helpfully saying 'why do they keep kicking the ball around instead of at the goal' (I think she was on Graham Taylor's coaching staff, to be fair)
saying ‘why do they keep kicking the ball around instead of at the goal’ (I t
Could be worse. She could spend the whole game pointing out that ones got nice legs, that's quite a bottom on that one.
Portuguese kit’s quite groovy.
best kit in the tournament I think
Apart from the refereeing teams of course. The pale blue one is gorgeous.
I'm sat here in my replica kit ref's shirt waving my dayglo flag now as it happens.
Not as good as Belgium's golfing jumpers from the last world cup.
Kwistian Benteke's auk army. ****ing pwick.
The Portuguese kit reminds of the 80’s Crystal “team of the 80’s” Palace one.
Actually just looked it up and it’s not. Confused childhood memories.
Portuguese kit’s quite groovy
Looks like an old Leicester Tigers kit?
Actually just looked it up and it’s not.
More of a diagonal sash, isn't it?
Actually just looked it up and it’s not. Confused childhood memories.
Did the Palace one have a sash? Nowhere near enough sashes on kits IMO. 😃
ÉDIT: m’y favourite sashed kit being the Peruvian all white with a red sash.
EDIT: had my French keyboard switched on for that one ☝️ 😂
Lee Dixon's now trolling us on the unfairness of the interpretation of the advantage law.
I'd give my opinion but it would be beige apparently. Like the NZ ODI kit in World Series Cricket on Channel 9 (that was Packer trolling the Kiwi's wasn't it, no reason at all they couldn't have black, instead he gave them beige)
Cracker!
Even though the goalie was wrong footed and the ball was curling away from him, looking at the replays I think he will still be disappointed to not save that.
(laughed at seeing the Matty Hancock puppet in the ad for spitting image, they will have to update that now)
Just heard Pugatch say there hasn’t been a direct free kick scored in the competition yet. Weird one. Wonder if there have been less direct free kicks in scoreable positions.
This is the one I'm thinking of
Even though the goalie was wrong footed and the ball was curling away from him, looking at the replays I think he will still be disappointed to not save that.
I haven't counted to see if I'm beyond my ration, or checked with the censor to see if this is sufficiently non-beige but he never seemed to get his feet set. I think he'll be disappointed. Then again having 8 of his teammates marking 4 opponents within an arms length of the D while Bernardo tries to track the run - I think he'd expect a bit more help.