[Closed] The English language. Loving it. Lots.

You do realize that "synecdoche" and "metonym" are of Greek origin, right? Hardly seem to illustrate English being anything special.

@hols2: except in its fearless ability to confront other lexicons and appropriate their terms. I can’t think of another language that does that so prodigiously.

Over 50% of Japanese words are of Chinese origin. A whole lot more are from European languages.

On top of which, a lot of English speakers are very fearful of foreign languages, so "fearlessly" doesn't quite seem right.

I can’t see the OP describing English as a special language. Merely that they happen to like it. Lots.

I also can’t see why some words having their origins in other languages would be anything other than a good thing?

Any general lack of foreign language skills is also not a fault of the English language.

What I’m trying to say is, what is your point caller?

English does have a larger vocabulary than most languages dues to being a mix of other european languages.

Well at a lower level... It seems much simpler than the train crash which is German that I'm trying to learn..
Articles, cases and word order for starters. How much needs changing for simple sentences... At least it's recognizable letters, not characters.

You do realize that “synecdoche” and “metonym” are of Greek origin, right? Hardly seem to illustrate English being anything special.

Breaking News from hols2. English language contains some words of Greek origin.

I can’t see the OP describing English as a special language. Merely that they happen to like it. Lots.

Everyone loves their native language. It's kinda like everyone's dad is the coolest dad in the world (but only to you).

English does have a larger vocabulary than most languages

Based on what? Did you look up an academic study for that or just pull it out of your arse?

English language contains some words of Greek origin.

Which means that those particular words aren't a manifestation of anything special about English. If you want to show that English is special, it would be more convincing if you pointed out some feature that was unique to English, not borrowed from another language.

I've heard that English is remarkable in the variety of different word influences over history, and that it is hard to learn because there aren't enough rules or rather too many exceptions.

I love reading stuff like the warnings or instructions on packages that are in different languages and seeing how they are constructed differently, and sometimes actually saying slightly different things.

I’ve heard that English is remarkable

Perhaps in the way it doesn't follow its own rules or pronunciations maybe

I wish I knew a second language well enough to appreciate the finer points, but I don't so I make do with English and don't feel shortchanged except by my inabilities. Somedays it really lifts my spirits to read something by a writer using his words precisely.
It does matter - ask Giles Coren : https://www.theguardian.com/media/2008/jul/23/mediamonkey

A little aggressive Hols!

Its one of those things you hear but on looking a bit deeper its actually hard to define in linguistic terms as some languages use compound words ( isd that the right term?) so it really depends on definitions. I have seen it stated tho that English has a larger vocabularly because it will have words for the same concept from different languages. Take " sea mist" for example - this can also be "Haar" or "fret"

Which means that those particular words aren’t a manifestation of anything special about English. If you want to show that English is special, it would be more convincing if you pointed out some feature that was unique to English, not borrowed from another language.

The OP stated why they like the English language nothing about it being unique. You’re effectively telling them that they shouldn’t like it because it has origins elsewhere.

I've always found this a fascinating subject and can heartily recommend Melvyn Bragg's The Adventure of English. He really gets over the point of where English actually starts. There's very little of anything the Britons would have spoken, the closest being Gaelic, Welsh and Cornish. Very little of Roman and Viking origin either, except in place names.The core of it being, as a German lady I met once, an underdeveloped German. Then Norman french. I think it's only later when Latin and Greek started being incorporated. You then get a sense that American English is closer to the English from around the time of independence. Add into that all the other pidgins, creoles etc. and it's a great subject.

Which means that those particular words aren’t a manifestation of anything special about English. If you want to show that English is special, it would be more convincing if you pointed out some feature that was unique to English, not borrowed from another language.

Did he say it was special? I didn't detect anything suggesting exceptionalism in his post. I think the interesting (note, not 'special' or superior in any way) thing about English is the sheer amount of stuff it's borrowed from different language families. And possibly the number of alternative ways of saying stuff. Of course, all languages have their interesting things, so it's not a brag.

Who cares? I’m off to see Susie Dent in Basingstoke next Wednesday so I’m sure I’ll get loads of ‘interesting’ facts to bore people with.

So Brexiter Eddiebaby loves his English and loves to see a German genius getting a critical kicking from, well, Virginia Wolfe. When I walk into any modern building I see Gropius not Wolfe, so we know whose heritage is lasting.

Learn a few other languages Eddie, lots of boxes of delights to be opened.

I have seen it stated

Where? I've seen it stated that vaccinations cause autism. Just because someone can type it and post it on the internet doesn't mean we should believe it.

Ken Kesey was once asked about Tom Wolfe and Hunter S. Thompson. He said something along the lines of "Cream rises, shit floats. Hunter Thompson is cream."

Wow.  Got to love STW.

From someone stating that he loves the English language we then get angry posts telling him it's not special and anything ther telling him to learn other languages along with a reference to him being pro brexit??

Good job he didn't say he loved riding his hard tail in the Peak.  He'd have been told that England is nothing special, Italy has far better places to ride.  And then that he should learn to trail run.  Or something.....

Some quite bizarre responses to a pretty innocuous OP.

Over 50% of Japanese words are of Chinese origin. A whole lot more are from European languages.

More than 50%? Is maths your failing here, or is it language?

we then get angry posts telling him it’s not special

Nobody's angry. Just amused that the things that he loves so much about English actually come from another language.

I have seen it stated

Where?

Does it bloody matter? This isn't a court of law. He probably doesn't remember where he read it, guessing that like me he doesn't exhaustively index and cross-reference every fact in case some irritable sod on the internet jumps down his throat for posting it one day.

General chit chat would be a lot harder if everything had to be referenced, independently verified and scrutinised by the opposition. Perhaps you're trying to kill off such frivolous activities? Not sure why, this is a forum explicitly for that purpose. Why are you here?

Just amused that the things that he loves so much about English actually come from another language.

Why?

I like eating pasta in a restaurant in Cardiff, but it comes from Italy. Am I allowed to say that without being ridiculed?

Nobody’s angry. Just amused that the things that he loves so much about English actually come from another language.

Indo-European??

More than 50%? Is maths your failing here, or is it language?

Sorry, that would be clearer if it said, "a lot of additional words are from European languages." Thanks for pointing out how confusing that is.

I like eating pasta in a restaurant in Cardiff, but it comes from Italy. Am I allowed to say that without being ridiculed?

Of course you can. But if you said, "English food is wonderful. I like eating pasta in a restaurant in Cardiff", people would probably be quite amused.

Thing I like about Japanese is that once you have a few words of it, you’ll get by anywhere in the world.

Pasta, may well have not been the best example. Certainly not Italian if you’re going down to an absurdly reductive position.

Might even (probably not) be Chinese as a food stuff depending on who you want to believe.

You’ll always be welcomed anywhere if you turn up with a bag of pasta.

Might even (probably not) be Chinese

According to my Chinese friend, everything was invented in China and stolen by foreigners. If you question him, he will show you internet sources proving it.

So Brexiter Eddiebaby loves his English and loves to see a German genius getting a critical kicking from, well, Virginia Wolfe.

I think it was Tom rather than Virginia.

Lots of grandiose verbosity on show by team politics at the moment, with hollow bellowing typical of their gasconade

#putthethesaurusdown

On top of which, a lot of English speakers are very fearful of foreign languages

They'll be the ones using "gifted" instead of "given" or "donated". I doubt they'll be using synecdoche on a regular basis.

Use of pogonotomy is, however, often a double-edged blade.

“L’anglais n’est que du français mal prononcé” ?

You’ll always be welcomed anywhere if you turn up with a bag of pasta.

That's probably fortunate, otherwise they'be on their own and feeling cannelloni.

Over 50% of Japanese words are of Chinese origin. A whole lot more are from European languages.

More than 50%? Is maths your failing here, or is it language?

That reads well to me. The "more" doesn't mean more than 50%, just "a whole lot more words" i.e. in addition to the words of Chinese origin.

I'm most entertained by all this. I really thought there'd be a lot more abuse about the architecture content. But what the heck I never even knew Virginia Wolfe wrote about the subject.

So Brexiter Eddiebaby loves his English and loves to see a German genius getting a critical kicking from, well, Virginia Wolfe. When I walk into any modern building I see Gropius not Wolfe, so we know whose heritage is lasting.

You should try the book at some point Edukator (I assume that's an aspiration rather then a job description) it charts the rise of modernism in architecture quite well.

I think it was Tom rather than Virginia.

You're right, which puts in perspective how (un)famous Tom is. Having never heard of Tom I assumed Virginia as a contempory of Gropius.

Edit: different cultural references, Eddie. Tom Wolfe means nothing to me, "Edukator" didn't immediately make you think of this film:

How would one pronounce ‘synecdoche’? 🤔

sinekdokee

edit - though I like the YouTube one better

Over 50% of Japanese words are of Chinese origin. A whole lot more are from European languages.

Based on what? Did you look up an academic study for that or just pull it out of your arse?

Very little of Roman and Viking origin either, except in place names

I think the use of the definite article ("the") was introduced by the Vikings. A small word but fairly important.

Also, I think the theory is that it was Viking incomers and English natives having to communicate simply with each other that was the point when English lost most of its inflections. Which I suppose is a fairly big deal.

So I suppose you could call Modern English a Creole.

That reads well to me. The “more” doesn’t mean more than 50%, just “a whole lot more words” i.e. in addition to the words of Chinese origin.

It's ambiguous. 'Many others' would be a whole lot more betterer.

Over 50% of Japanese words are of Chinese origin. A whole lot more are from European languages.

Based on what? Did you look up an academic study for that or just pull it out of your arse?

I took some linguistics classes as an undergraduate, although it wasn't my major. Basically, as a case study, I took a class in Japanese linguistics and also in Japanese language (which is horrific as far as writing and socio-linguistics go). One of the modules in the Japanese linguistics course was concerned with the development of the Japanese writing system (which was adapted from Chinese, of course). That was a long time ago, but from what I remember, corpus analysis (probably of newspaper and magazine articles because they were the easiest source to build a corpus from before the internet) found that over 50% of Japanese words originated from Chinese.

Of course, methodology is really important in studies like that, the specifications of the corpus being the most obvious question (are you counting how many words are commonly used or do you include obscure words like "poltroon" that are still listed in dictionaries but almost never used?) Another question is just settling on a definition of "word". In English, you have a base-word (i.e. the word listed in the dictionary), plus a whole bunch of derived forms, but other languages may have different word formation processes. In counting English words, do you count the entire word family (for example, "ratio", "rational", "rationalization", etc.) as a single word, or as multiple words? What about "run" and "ran", or "paper" and "papers"? Plus you have homonyms that may have originated from the same word family, for example "run the engine", "run a marathon".

This means that comparing the number of words in different languages will always be messy. For example, in Japanese, there are two words for "hot", both pronounced "atsui", but with different Chinese characters. One Chinese character is used for "I am hot", the other for "this thing is hot", even though the spoken word is the same. Do these count as two words or one? With "cold", there are two different words, "samui" and "tsumetai", so these will clearly be counted as two words.

Point is that when people start citing numbers showing some amazing feature of a language, you really have to ask where the numbers came from and how the research was conducted. Languages are amazingly complex and seemingly simple questions like "how many words" often have multiple possible answers.

questions like “how many words” often have multiple possible answers.

Then there are the impossible answers.

Of course you can. But if you said, “English food is wonderful. I like eating pasta in a restaurant in Cardiff”, people would probably be quite amused.

So, you're trying to say that English isn't English because it didn't originate in England? So what? Doesn't make it any less interesting, which was the OP's point and not some nationalistic bollocks.

Then there are the impossible answers.

Well, my personal theory is that there is only one word that describes everything, all the things we think are different words are actually only variations on that single word. Have only succeeded in convincing a single person of that though and he was so drunk that he'd completely forgotten by the next day.

English isn’t English because it didn’t originate in England?

Some parts originated in England. "Synecdoche" didn't, though.

Having never heard of Tom Wolfe

something something drinking the coolaid...

So, you’re trying to say that English isn’t English because it didn’t originate in England? So what?

yeah but the words he used were sufficiently like saying the thing about english is its certain je ne sais quoi that it was quite a funny response.

Having never heard of Tom Wolfe

Auther of The Electric Cool-aid Bonfire of the Right Stuff.

over 50% of Japanese words originated from Chinese

40% of Turkish words originate in Arabic. However Attaturk disapproved of this, and a factory (the TDK) was set up in Ankara systematically to purge these and introduce Turkish replacements. Like replacing the old arabic word for teacher 'hoca' (pronounced hoeja) with a new made up word - - 'öğretmen'.

So I guess what I'm saying to the OP is enjoy your EU import words whilst you can as slapping on WTO tarrifs is definately the zeitgeist. Luckily the over-used anglo saxon parts of my vocab should be let alone.

yeah but the words he used were sufficiently like saying the thing about english is its certain je ne sais quoi that it was quite a funny response.

I didn't get that at all. A bit pretentious maybe but that's all.

Get real guys!!! Its Kool-Aid!
And anyway where did that bullshit Brexiter comment come from? I quite like most of the world I've been to and have felt welcomed there, so why not extend that courtesy back?

Its Kool-Aid!

Bollocks. Thought something looked wrong.

"It's" as we're in a language thread.

Bollocks

or, for those who like their anglo saxon vocab in Anglo-Saxon:

Beallucas

And anyway where did that bullshit Brexiter comment come from?

Because you declared you'd be voting out on the referendum thread (page 6) and then posted this:

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/its-brexit-day/

Luckily the over-used anglo saxon parts of my vocab should be let alone.

And where did the angles and saxons come from? Germany and denmark IIRC so you cannot have those bits either. You are left with Gaelic, Welsh, and cornish. What did the ancient britons speak>?

You’ll always be welcomed anywhere if you turn up with a bag of pasta.

That’s probably fortunate, otherwise they’be on their own and feeling cannelloni.

You lot need to stop arguing for a second and give Cougar some credit for this.

That’s probably fortunate, otherwise they’be on their own and feeling cannelloni.

Missed this, but the penne has just dropped...

Because you declared you’d be voting out on the referendum thread (page 6) and then posted this:

It’s Brexit Day!

Good search skills or weird stalking but the first was followed up by an explanation that it was a protest vote (and one that went VERY wrong) and as to the second if you can't see the piss taking in that at that time in UK politics after the endless HoC vote failures then I suspect that English isn't your first language or you have no sense of humour.
Whatever.

English is a fantastic language. As is German. They’re quite different though- German is an algorithm, English is consistent in its inconsistency!

You are left with Gaelic, Welsh, and cornish. What did the ancient britons speak>?

But they're bloody European imports anyway. So you can't use them either. Certainly not post Brexit.

In fact all modern European languages, with (I believe) the exception of Finnish and Basque evolved from proto-Indo-European which was spoken about 6500 years ago in the area north of the Caspian sea. All this borrowing words from Latin, celtic, Viking etc. is beginning to feel a bit incestuous.

Based on what? Did you look up an academic study for that or just pull it out of your arse?

I took some linguistics classes as an undergraduate, although it wasn’t my major. Basically, as a case study, I took a class in Japanese linguistics and also in Japanese language

I'm not sure whether to be amused or saddened that we've reached the point in our development where someone makes a statement on the Internet without providing evidence or citing a source, and the notion that the source might in fact be Actually Knowing Things doesn't occur to the readers.

You lot need to stop arguing for a second and give Cougar some credit for this.

Aw shucks.

That’s probably fortunate, otherwise they’be on their own and feeling cannelloni.

I am out of my chair and applauding, bravo!

The word sky has roots in a norse word for cloud according to the book The Etymologicon, always found that amusing.