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Boris is now supplying all the socialism that most people want, there is no reason to vote labour anymore. Folk want meritocracy not endless handouts for the scroungers.
Then folk are idiots.
They see folk getting a few quid here and there and resent it yet are happy to be financially raped so one of Johnson's chums/backers can make a killing (and no doubt sort him out with a backhander).
Labour are perceived to support the scroungers. People arriving illegally on boats, the usual response is to take them back to where they came from, or, less commonly, but not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent, they see things differently to the London Centric Labour view. Labour really do live on a different planet. Sending a Remain Candidate to a 70% Leave constituency election. Labour are a joke.
The Brexit vote was half a decade ago, yet it's still a defining issue?
Like I said before it's cast a long shadow and we now people choose their governmental representatives based on their support for a project dreamed up in Kent.
As for the Labour focus on the Westminster bubble, you're right there is far to much concentration on a London-centric type of politics by people who are a bit divorced from everyday reality around the country... But you are aware who Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson actually is, right?
Brilliant article summed it up, very much aligned with my thinking. They need to focus on what matters to the voters, not whatever well meaning "cause" is hot on the agenda of the metropolitan socialists:
Better to try to prove that you understand what voters want because you share their frustrations and hopes. So talk about what Labour would offer your community, your street. The genuinely affordable houses it would build, the childcare it would lay on, the care homes it would extract from the private equity barons. This would be about the state being on your side, rather than run for big business and select lobbyists. It would be supported by the leadership allowing Labour outside Westminster much deeper national and regional identities, to run ahead of the shadow cabinet, just as Preston city council has done with its guerrilla localism.
Finally the party should turn its constituency offices into community hubs, food banks, welfare advice centres – showing what Labour can do for voters even in long years out of office. Enough of mistaking focus groups for listening to people, of passing off professionalised caution as wisdom, of pretending top-down social democracy can fly in an era of polarisation and social impatience.
not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent.
Uncaring heartless monsters rather than racists then?
No, that is the same as where Labour are going wrong. People think/say that, but dont actually mean it.
What they do want is for their taxes to be used for the people of the UK, not to support illegal activities. Their children cannot get a home, yet if you arrive in a boat from France, you are given somewhere to stay, and food, at no cost to you. Try doing that when you live with your parents in the Midlands. The peoples anger is directed to those people who arrive illegally, and, to the people who can afford to dodge their taxes, when they are clearly able to pay a little more tax. Try getting out of paying a little less tax when you are on PAYE. Labour are taking the brunt of this anger, as they are sympathetic to a lot of causes, many of which are not on the radar of a working family.
The Tories are not much better, as I said earlier, they are a rabble, and probably the worst Government in the last 40 years (though I do think they have improved slightly over the last year), but Labour just cannot keep up. What should be an easy target for them is anything but. Corbyn should have had a landslide in the last election, the Tories were awful. Yet he had the biggest defeat ever. It is the Labour Party that is failing the Country, we need a good, strong opposition now. We arent getting it.
At what point in time ave the people of Hartlepool had a socialist governent? Theyve had some years of centrist (Blair) and the rest of the time increasingly right wing.
ok...
‘Perhaps, just perhaps, the people of Hartlepool are in fact seeing that believing in Socialism and voting for it since the demise of coal mining and shipbuilding and everything else hasn’t worked.
Wait, you’re saying they used to vote for socialism?
https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/
https://www.tusc.org.uk/
Or were you referring to them voting Labour?
@alanl. Very true. This is compounded by the fact that France is a perfectly safe country to live in and those genuinely fleeing persecution would be safe which just reinforces the picture that it’s all about economics and not safety
Really, people see the UK with a Covid death rate similar to Brazil and don't join the dots. Not much hope for sophisticated discourse on the doorstep.
Emigrate? I did.
The system just doesn't work in the UK at the moment. House prices are ludicrous compared to salaries. Tax is high for workers, which I don't have a problem with if everyone pays it, but companies such as Amazon pay zero on billions meaning schools, healthcare and infrastructure are crumbling.
We both teach and our quality of life would be through the floor back in the UK.
This is a shame because if the system worked then we'd live there.
It doesn't so we've taken our UK taxpayer paid for education abroad. We're doubly bad because we own property in the UK and so we're absent landlords pushing up prices and paying zero tax on the revenue.
Broken system and a real shame.
Edit: deleted
So are we saying that Labour need to pretend they don’t care about minorities, stop caring about minorities or actively take actions that disadvantage minorities?
Absolutely not. But there also needs to be a recognition that you can't pour from an empty cup, and you can't expect people focused on the economic here and now of their job security, their roof over their head, and feeding their family to think about anyone outside their bubble of focus. That's survival instinct not "selfishness" or whatever. If struggling communities feel neglected and ignored by a party that seems more interested in other causes, they won't vote for them. It's that simple.
Improve those communities' quality of life tangibly, and when they can afford it economically and emotionally, they'll share the love wider. While they're having a hard time, they'll hunker down and support themselves and their loved ones. Nothing wrong with that.
While they’re having a hard time, they’ll hunker down and support themselves and their loved ones. Nothing wrong with that.
This is how austerity pays/has paid out to the Tories/the rise of RW Nationalism. Grind people down for decades, carve up and sell off social resources, then blame asylum-seekers and foreigners in general. The coup-de-grace is to remove any perceived distinction between illegal immigrants and refugees, in much the same way as ‘legitimate welfare claimant’ and ‘benefit scrounger’ are now synonymous in the national mindset. Shaking off the EU and Labour at this time is a cynical masterstroke of Little England. The American Dream, over here, overpriced and underpaid. The field is now wide open for every cynical **** to clean up.
But without the luxury of time travel, there's zero value in looking backwards at "wot the Tories done" - and that's not to diminish the impact of austerity. But the man in an estate just wants a political party that has vision for the future and can tell him how they will make life better for him and his family.
Labour need to do that bit first. Like in the olden days, looking after working communities, building a sense of pride and support within the community. At the moment that seems to be neglected or forgotten.
What they do want is for their taxes to be used for the people of the UK, not to support illegal activities. Their children cannot get a home, yet if you arrive in a boat from France, you are given somewhere to stay, and food, at no cost to you. Try doing that when you live with your parents in the Midlands. The peoples anger is directed to those people who arrive illegally,
And how many people are arriving illegally and what is the actual cost?
Oh yes, that's right you don't actually have any idea of the tiny scale of it but it is nonetheless a big issue because someone can't buy a house somewhere.
The children can't get a home because their parents have been happy helping prices get out of control for the last 40 years.
Still, makes people feel better if they have an 'enemy' to blame.
At the moment that seems to be neglected or forgotten.
It’s gone and largely forgotten. Let it die. Communities are a thing of the past. We have the internet now, where ill-supported and ill-founded idealogical arguments preside seemingly in an abstract Punch and Judy-esque cyberspace, yet deliver surprisingly real results at election time. Like the tabloids, except faster and harder. Partisanal porn.
It’s a shell game within a shell game. If you can’t beat it, join it. Or else grab enough dough to drop out/emigrate before you’re found selling the family home/begging online to pay for urgent healthcare.
There is a social revolution in the UK and it’s ‘getting rid’ of ‘foreigners’ and ‘the left’. It’s working very well, you must admit?
The coup-de-grace is to remove any perceived distinction between illegal immigrants and refugees, in much the same way as ‘legitimate welfare claimant’ and ‘benefit scrounger’ are now synonymous in the national mindset.
Not anymore. Thanks to covid, pretty much everyone is now on the government's tit. 🙂
The question is whether you see society as divided by capital and class (you choose a side) or you support capitalism and hope to make it grow to allow for a little trickle down.
Not anymore. Thanks to covid, pretty much everyone is now on the government’s tit. 🙂
That’s a passing phase. They’ll turn their attention back to disabled, foreigners, single-mums and asylum-seekers once everyone’s back to the new scheme of working zero hour contracts and/or 90hrs p/w to clear the £1k pcm roof over head bill. Bread and circuses will remain cheap(ish).
It’s of course v handy (now we’ve left the nasty Liberal globalist EU) that those famous socialist Chinese people are supporting most of the UK’s needs by way of building materials, tech, clothing, household goods, etc. And with generous mark-up potential 😉
chrismac
The first is brexit which, certainly in their traditional northern heartlands, was very popular for reasons I am at a loss to understand. And Boris gets a lot of credit for getting it done
The second is wokesim. Labour has gone woke and I cant for the life of me see how that was ever going to appeal to their original core voters who are / were white working class families.
Pretty much it ......
On the other hand Boris is appealing to the other side of National socialism... that is the bit without socialism. Quick send the gunboats out to Jersey and he ho... next step invade Poland (or just pretend he will)?
At the moment that seems to be neglected or forgotten.
True. But that’s because of those actually in government, yet it’s the alternatives that get the blame, and lose the support of those voters.
If the real question is ‘why can’t a centre left party with a pretty standard European social democratic manifesto win in England?’ then it’s entirely down to the charmless leaders they choose to head them (combined with the right wing propaganda of the establishment and press of course).
People want to like their leaders. They want charm and smiles and approachable friendliness. Johnson has got this in spades, Corbyn and Stamer seem to have had their charm removed at birth.
How hard can it be to find a charismatic left leader? None of the shadow cabinet front bench qualify. It’s seems dourness is a necessary facet to rise through the ranks in the Labour Party.
Modern right wingers have sussed that charisma can sell any policies. It’s time the left learned it too.
p7eaven
That’s a passing phase. They’ll turn their attention back to disabled, foreigners, single-mums and asylum-seekers once everyone’s back to the new scheme of working zero hour contracts and/or 90hrs p/w to clear the £1k pcm roof over head bill. Bread and circuses will remain cheap(ish).
Of course they will be so what... all Boris has to do is add them to the "blame" list.
supernova
If the real question is ‘why can’t a centre left party with a pretty standard European social democratic manifesto win in England?’ then it’s entirely down to the charmless leaders they choose to head them (combined with the right wing propaganda of the establishment and press of course).
This is an illustrative part of the bigger problem.
Especially with Corbyn the message loud and clear was "we are not voting for him"... but that this REALLY illustrates is they are not listening to the traditional Labour voters.
Didn't Labour start all that persecution of the sick/disabled? Then the Conservatives just carried on? I may be wrong.
None of this is new; the Tories have always been masters of getting people to vote against their own best interests. What stands out now is that people are voting for someone whose incompetence has literally caused thousands of deaths, and they still have a chuckle about "good old Boris" and profess themselves happy wih how he has handled the pandemic.
Charmless leaders? David or Ed. Only the Labour Party would choose Ed.
Good explanation here:
... Corbyn and Stamer seem to have had their charm removed at birth.
LOL! They definitely do not have the smiley smiley grin of Blair.
Modern right wingers have sussed that charisma + lies, lies, lies and more lies coupled with flat denial can sell almost any policies. Any sticking points can be solved by blaming ‘foreigners’. Blaming ‘foreigners’ always works. It’s time the left learned it too.
ftfy
Still want to join the Romans? *Edit, but you’re right about charisma. See also Trump.
Johnson should be demonstrating that charm isn't what makes a good leader.
The big issue for me appears to be how little of the total available vote you need to win. In Hartlepool the Tories got ~22% of the available vote, Labour ~12%. 58% of people didn’t vote at all.
are you proposing to force people to vote?
pointless or factually incorrect soundbites that never become policy will be even more critical to winning.
Not at all. The point is to win you only need a small but reliable part of the voter base to vote for you. The Tories understand this but Labour seem unable to grasp it. The Tories concentrate their efforts on people who actually vote, and don't care if in doing so alienate others.
OP when you say ‘socialism in England’, what was it, and what is left of it?
Johnson should be demonstrating that charm isn’t what makes a good leader.
I often claim that ‘should’ is a word looking for relevance. It should have relevance. Like bellends shouldn’t be bellends. So why are they bellends? And why is ‘should’ relevant? Shouldn’t it be irrelevant?
In an ideal world people should agree on what does or doesn’t make a ‘good leader’ ?
(Disclaimer: I may have enjoyed a Jameson’s or two, but the claim stands!)
I suppose its the remnants of the post war Labour Party, i probably have a broader view of Socialism that most for me its not extremely left wing its more about social responsibility and the social contract of fair taxation, NHS, looking after people....
It may have been an illusion and i am starting to think i am a dinosaur?
The social contract that i operate under has gone, i will still look after the folks that are part of my business, however beyond that i feel all is lost.
Yet yoday labour had a good day in Wales and the SNP also. So it is an English issue in practical terms.
They definitely do not have the smiley smiley grin of Blair.
Tory politics is for people who can't enjoy anything in life without it being soured by the thought that someone might have it better/easier.
The type of person who could win the lottery and then moan about how it has become the bane of their lives and simultaneously how the jackpots used to be so much bigger back in 'the good old days'.
I suppose its the remnants of the post war Labour Party, i probably have a broader view of Socialism that most for me its not extremely left wing its more about social responsibility and the social contract of fair taxation, NHS, looking after people….
It may have been an illusion and i am starting to think i am a dinosaur?
People forget that the current Welfare state was a consensus creation of the Tories, Labour and Liberals. Beveridge (Liberal) came up with architeture, Rab Butler (Tory) created the modern Eductaion System and Nye Bevin (Labour), the NHS. For many decades afterwards Labour and the Tories used to outbid each other at general elections over how many council houses they planned to build. It's only really in the 70s that the Tory party diverged and became a small state party.
Thinking of political party allegiance while reading the news it is very apparent that if you divide up the voting blocks the biggest by a considerable margin are the non voters.
Perhaps a target for an aspiring government is to get people interest. It was notable that the turnout around Brexit and for the referendum was higher. It was an issue and idea that captured peoples attention.
Perhaps a target for an aspiring government is to get people interest.
You would hope the aspiration of 'not being a ****' would be enough. But sadly, it seems not.
This country has shown it’s true colours, it is filled past the half way point with bad people.
No. It’s got an awful lot of people who were fed a string of lies and half-truths by politicians only looking out for themselves, Blair and Cameron to start with, followed by BloJo.
Pretty sure that the whole sorry episode would never have happened if Cameron had just buried the idea or kicked it into the long grass, as pundits are won’t to say.
The perspective from Cambridgeshire is quite different.
Conservatives ousted from the county council; no overall control but likely to be a Libdem/Labour setup.
And the Conservative mayor (and his bizarre plan to dig tunnels underneath 500 year old colleges) has been kicked out and replaced with a very sensible sounding Labour mayor.
The perspective from Cambridgeshire is quite different.
Although even that is split, biggest gainers at County were LD, but in the City it was Labour and Greens. Although oddly the best thing to happen to the City in years (closing of Mill Road Bridge to cars) was a Tory initiative. The local labour party was campaigning on that which was very funny - taking credit for a Tory initiative they opposed.