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'Patriots', I think they like to be called these days.
Are you denying that racists and fascists exist? Or are you just identifying as a racist and fascist but would rather you were called something else?
My point was about name calling.
I tend to think of those that use the term "woke" as racist, ****s, or both.
Equally applies to people who who get upset about not being able to call a spade a spade anymore. We know what they are really upset about - not being able to be racist ****s in public.
I don't see any reasons why Labour should retreat from being Woke ...
Just push on the Woke agenda otherwise they are no different.
If Labour party does not adopt Woke identity what else can they be?
What is the point of pretending to be something else like Blair (he is rich, very rich)?
Then let the people decide ...
At what point in time ave the people of Hartlepool had a socialist governent? Theyve had some years of centrist (Blair) and the rest of the time increasingly right wing. There's no capitalist incentive ot improve Hartlepool - it works on a market level, or actually it doesn't, and it slowly dies.
'Perhaps, just perhaps, the people of Hartlepool are in fact seeing that believing in Socialism and voting for it since the demise of coal mining and shipbuilding and everything else hasn’t worked.. Perhaps the idea that economic policies are set to minimize government intervention/tax and as such reward individual effort has some appeal?'
Which is all well and good till you need something like healthcare, unemployment benefit, pensions, consumer protection etc. Then you have to pay. Looking from a foreign perspective Britain is becoming a very rightwing country, and reading the Daily Mail a real eye opener, and really not very different to Fox i nthe US. There is a lot of right wing propoganda in the UK .
My point was about name calling.
It's interesting that people are proud of being liberal or lefty and would not view those terms as 'name calling', but embarrassed about being racist or fascist and do view such descriptions as insulting.
It’s interesting that people are proud of being liberal or lefty and would not view those terms as ‘name calling’, but embarrassed about being racist or fascist and do view such descriptions as insulting.
That was my point. People don't like being called "woke" which gets their back up and generally makes them less receptive to reason. Names that are far more offensive.... Well draw your own conclusions...
At what point in time ave the people of Hartlepool had a socialist governent?
Given that in 2020/21 the government was paying 50pc of UK wages at times (IIRC), I'd say 2020/21.
People don’t like being called “woke”
I'd be happy to be called "woke" if it was defined in any of the ways that have been hinted at in these pages. I'd just like to know what people mean by it to engage with it. If it's the new name for "politically correct", I'll happily take that "insult".
At what point in time ave the people of Hartlepool had a socialist governent?
Depends how you view government as working, you could vote for Corbyn (if you lived in his constituency), but that in itself doesn't make the government any more left wing because the right -wing just writes you off and the center-left wing takes you for granted. There's a strong incentive in any political system to vote for the winning side (or close to it) so at least your voice is heard.
It's not, and never has been, a melting pot of ideas and consensus building, it's 50%+1.
To put it more provocatively, Blair has done more for socialism than Corbyn, however much Socialists like to use the term Blairite as an insult. Because he was electable and got stuff done.
Which is all well and good till you need something like healthcare, unemployment benefit, pensions, consumer protection etc. Then you have to pay. Looking from a foreign perspective Britain is becoming a very rightwing country, and reading the Daily Mail a real eye opener, and really not very different to Fox i nthe US. There is a lot of right wing propoganda in the UK .
Yup, but as I said, voting for Labour under the promise of something being done about it hasn't achieved it. Voting Tory might result in Pork Barrel Politics as someone else said, but hey, that's a result at least.
People don’t like being called “woke” which gets their back up and generally makes them less receptive to reason
Have you got some evidence for this? I cant say I would be overly offended since it seems to be just the current fit all term of abuse the right used between complaining about people calling them names.
I see there has still be no definition of woke from the people spitting it out as an insult.
kelvin
I’d be happy to be called “woke” if it was defined in any of the ways that have been hinted at in these pages. I’d just like to know what people mean by it to engage with it. If it’s the new name for “politically correct”, I’ll happily take that “insult”.
Wokism is not just political correctness, but political correctness interpreted in a way that's devoid of nuance, and used as a sort of judgmental elitism. It doesn't win people over, it pushes them away.
Barack Obama made this point repeatedly about two years ago.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50239261
The reason why 'woke' has become an insult is that it is a new (& easier to spell) word for Left-Wing sanctimoniousness.
Thus from wikipedia: Writer and activist Chloé Valdary has stated that the concept of being woke is a "double-edged sword" that can "alert people to systemic injustice" while also being "an aggressive, performative take on progressive politics that only makes things worse
To put it more provocatively, Blair has done more for socialism than Corbyn, however much Socialists like to use the term Blairite as an insult. Because he was electable and got stuff done.
Yep, however Corbyn, Momentum et al have never forgiven him for getting elected - an unforgivable sin in their eyes. Which pretty much means we won't see another Labour government in my lifetime. Labour has just become a left wing interest group, of very little interest to anyone else.
Barack Obama made this point repeatedly about two years ago.
He was making the point that simply being judgemental isn't the way to effect change. So is being "woke" about being uncompromising judgemental? Or was he making the point that slamming others to feel better about ourselves is fruitless and counter productive? Isn't that true about all issues, not just about whatever "woke" issues are?
a new (& easier to spell) word for Left-Wing sanctimoniousness
That sounds just as wide ranging a catch all. If you push for you council to collect plastic recycling, because you think it's in the interest of residents and the environment, is that "wokism". Or does it only become wokism if you try and shame people into recycling their plastic waste?
Where is the line? If you're a teenager, and you draw people's attention to racist abuse going on in your school.. is that "wokism", or does it only become so if you seek harsh sanctions for those involved in the bullying?
Is it the issues, the attitude, the messaging, the remedies sought or the calls for redress? What makes something "Woke"?
Yep, however Corbyn, Momentum et al have never forgiven him for getting elected – an unforgivable sin in their eyes. Which pretty much means we won’t see another Labour government in my lifetime. Labour has just become a left wing interest group, of very little interest to anyone else.
Depends whether Domonic Cummings was right last night in his Tweet.
Is there a center ground worth fighting over and both parties need to be center enough to steal votes from each other to achieve their 51% in the marginal seats.
Or is Dom correct and there is no center ground. You either have to appeal to the center of the right, or the center of the left in order to get the far left/right to turn up and vote at all.
The problem for Labour and the left is Brexit proved Dom correct on Brexit and the right in general. But that didn't work when Labour did the same with Corbyn.
Personally (and mostly to avoid becoming a bitter, twisted, angry, jaded keyboard ranter/pub bore) I choose to believe that democracy is mostly the winner and that the wisdom of crowds holds true. The majority want those free market, small government ideals, so that's what they get. Perhaps that's a good thing. Maybe it means that for the majority life is no longer as shit as it was a century ago. We still end up with a Labour opposition holding them to account, but the majority have democratically decided that their interests are best served by a right-wing government.
Because he was electable and got stuff done.
He is rich! Very rich! Blair is doing well.
He was making the point that simply being judgemental isn’t the way to effect change. So is being “woke” about being uncompromising judgemental?
A dilemma for Woke.
On the one hand they want to retain their Woke identity, on the other hand they need to sleep with the "devil" which they don't want.
Maybe if we stopped faction fighting about what names we should or shouldn't call ourselves or each other, and actually set out what we wanted a fairer society to be in terms of opportunities, employment, social care etc etc, we might make some progress.
But as this thread has gone the same way as all the others that refer to left-wing politics or politicians, that seems unlikely.
That sounds just as wide ranging a catch all. If you push for you council to collect plastic recycling, because you think it’s in the interest of residents and the environment, is that “wokism”. Or does it only become wokism if you try and shame people into recycling their plastic waste?
Perhaps it is the fact that you choose to campaign on the issue of plastic recycling rather than certain other issues, on the grounds it is 'Woke' to do. Don't get me wrong, I see myself as Centre-Left & have voted Green ever since it was the Ecology Party, but I do recognise that an awful lot of bandwagon-jumping goes on.
I don't honestly think that recycling plastic is a good issue to debate 'wokeism' on. I have in mind, for example, the thornier issues around trans rights or debates on whether BLM is a 'movement' or a 'moment'.
He is rich! Very rich! Blair is doing well.
Had nothing to do with him getting elected. He decided he wanted to get elected and along with Alastair Cambell they made the necessary compromises to do so. A very simple method which worked very well. No one since, in the Labour party, has been prepared to make the necessary compromises, so failed miserably at getting elected.
the thornier issues around trans rights
An interesting point, but no idea how much appeal it has to middle england (the ones who actually vote). Probably quite high up the youth agenda (complete guess) but they are notorious for not voting. Personally, as a 50 year old, I'm rather 'meh' on the subject, seems complex, highly contraversial and at the end of the day I've other things to worry about.
Yep, however Corbyn, Momentum et al have never forgiven him for getting elected – an unforgivable sin in their eyes
Ah yes of course. People dislike him because despite being handed a winning ticket from Smith he then decided to drag the party rightwards and destroy its traditional base.
Unlike the idiots who still worship him and want to dust it off for round 2 though he actually has some brains and knew it was a short term gig. Hence why he walked away as the winner and left the mess to Brown to deal with.
on the grounds it is ‘Woke’ to do
So it's about motivation? This all feels so vague and circular...
It's powerful word, for sure. I'm still none the wiser how you can avoid being charged with it though.
Hence why he walked away as the winner and left the mess to Brown to deal with.
Every inside account I've read says that he didn't "walk away", he was pushed. Brown didn't suddenly find himself accidentally in the hot seat because Blair did a runner, did he?
An interesting point, but no idea how much appeal it has to middle england (the ones who actually vote). Probably quite high up the youth agenda (complete guess) but they are notorious for not voting. Personally, as a 50 year old, I’m rather ‘meh’ on the subject, seems complex, highly contraversial and at the end of the day I’ve other things to worry about.
My point exactly! (not well expressed by me earlier in the thread, sorry if it came across as trollish).
I - perhaps mistakenly, it seems - consider 'wokeism' to be intellectual navel gazing over semantics or issues that are important only to vanishingly small parts of the populace, at the expense of focussing on things that are of much broader concern.
Maybe if we stopped faction fighting about what names we should or shouldn’t call ourselves
Aside from its not fraction fighting in this case. Its trying to get people to define what they mean by "woke". Its clearly meant as an insult but what do people think it stands for.
Every inside account I’ve read says that he didn’t “walk away”, he was pushed.
He was pushed earlier than he wanted to go but he was clear he wasnt going to go for a fourth term way before that. Indeed thats part of why he was pushed since people wanted to give Brown time to bed in.
Blair wasnt an idiot and could see the constant drop in numbers.
at the expense of focussing on things that are of much broader concern
That's more like it. Before this thread, my understanding of it was "overly focused on the needs, and support for minorities, rather than the majority", which I think fits in with that description. And why it's such powerful a political tool... "they're only interested in the concerns of _____, not you and people like you". Of course the "only" bit is rarely true, but it is an accusation that can be thrown at anyone interested in having a society that works for everyone.
Their support of BLM, an inherently rac1st organisation
really? wow, dude, you need to do some reading
I have done plenty. To quote Black Lives Matter.com on the about page
Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.
Now I am all for stopping violence against any community that is being inflicted by any other community. All violence is wrong full stop and rarely achieves the intended ambition. I don’t see why violence by white people against blacks people is any worse than violence within communities, between any other ethnic groups. Why target one specific section of the community?
If you rewrote the quote above and swapped the word black for white would it be acceptable?
I have done plenty. To quote Black Lives Matter.com on the about page
That doesn't read as racist to me, am I missing something?
I don’t see why violence by white people against blacks people is any worse than violence within communities, between any other ethnic groups.
Who said it was? Violence occurs for many reasons. If you have a way of trying to address ALL violence with one campaign... feel free to share it. Domestic abuse campaigns don't preclude that stranger on stranger violence also needs addressing. Etc.
This is why the "Woke" charge is so dangerous... if you set up a support group or campaign about any issue, it can be charged as not being "broad" enough, and the pretence/accusation can be that anyone involved it cares about no one else.
This it the "all lives matter" approach thrown at BLM.
Or "no kid should go hungry here" approach thrown at charities working abroad.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the people of Hartlepool are in fact seeing that believing in Socialism and voting for it since the demise of coal mining and shipbuilding and everything else hasn’t worked.. Perhaps the idea that economic policies are set to minimize government intervention/tax and as such reward individual effort has some appeal?
I think the hopes of the folk of Hartlepool are precisely the opposite - that good old Boris will bung them some cash to build factories and suchlike, as he promised, and not just **** off once he's shagged them. Good luck to 'em.
I don’t see why violence by white people against blacks people is any worse than violence within communities,
So it would have been morally equivalent for Hitler to kill 6 million random people and for him to kill 6 million Jews?
That doesn’t read as racist to me, am I missing something?
It's the usual "all lives matter" bullshine. I wouldn't feed it.
So it would have been morally equivalent for Hitler to kill 6 million random people and for him to kill 6 million Jews?
I fear I'm walking into a bear trap, but AFAIK, yes. We don't let Stalin off the hook because the people he murdered were of varying backgrounds.
It's not the end of Socialism quite the opposite.
It's Socialism with a different label. The pandemic was predominantly about socialism and it hasn't finished. Super baffoon announced we weren't a party of Socialists in October then had to carry on supporting the economy.
Socialism is the only future you've actually got - it's just the label that has been hammered over and over.
Look to Biden...
The UK Goverment generates wealth every time it spends into the economy. With a pandemic still in flight - the country is afloat for that reason.
I would flip this question around and recognise that the market economy is busted without the Government spending into the economy in the first place.
Big changes ahead - look for the bullshit labels as the Tories spend into the economy - probably on all the wrong things!
I fear I’m walking into a bear trap, but AFAIK, yes.
Luckily for us, the law disagrees with you and punishes hate crime.
All seems rather nasty but in my experience this is often the way of those pushing social niceness. Of couse not all but so often religious/socialist/inclusive/lets be nice to everyone types are actually the least tolerant. The " you must respect my views but stuff yours" idea springs to mind. Equally the idea that equality for all but "only if you are equal to what I want and the average must go up not down" can be prevelant. Its a little bit like the freedom fighters wanting Scottish Independence. It was voted against so they want another chance. I bet you if it had been voted for the same people would have been denying a re-vote.
Look at the Hartlepool figures. More than half voted Conservative. Why can't the loosers accept that in good grace? Because they are sore losers.
Had nothing to do with him getting elected.
I think I voted for him (well the party but his grinning from ear to ear got me voting) which makes me feel dirty now by just thinking about it.
Well he hit the jackpot and becomes very rich after his PM years, rich beyond ordinary voters' comprehension. Rich!
Luckily for us, the law disagrees with you a
So, if someone were an advisor to Hitler and he presented a plan to kill 6 million people according to criteria but offered the alternative of killing 7 million people completely at random, the morally correct thing to do would be to take the latter? (Feel free to adjust the numbers to an appropriate level in your answer.)
Its a little bit like the freedom fighters wanting Scottish Independence. It was voted against so they want another chance.
Does this logic also apply to the Common Market referendum we held in 1975?
"THAT is why Tory voters are selfish."
But so is this. To want something that others don't and to deny them the acceptability is selfish. To my mind the Socialist idea is selfish. You want to upset the natural way of the wrold and deny people the right to make what they want of themselves.
My point above exactly.
Britain is becoming a very rightwing country
But it isnt though is it?
Things are the same as they have always been, 24 hour instant reporting is bringing up things now that would never have been known about, or talked about 30 years ago as they are non-stories, yet puffed up to make them into a scandal. - Boris has bedroom decorated. So what. he's rich and has rich friends.
In reality, we have the most socialist Government for 20 , maybe 30 years, maybe more? Who would have thought they said 'stop going to work if you are in danger, and we'll pay 80% of your wages'. The amount they have funded businesses who have had to close down. The amount paid out to manage the Covid crisis. Yes, there are mistakes, and it's very easy to criticise after the event, but, they been more 'socialist' than most previous Governments, something that they would not have done of they were the 'uncaring tory scum' as depicted by some people.
And no, I didnt vote, and I do think they are an utter rabble, but Labour are no better, and probably worse.
Britain is angry - but it's lashing out at the wrong things. That's the bit that needs fixing.
Don’t know what you’re chatting about. In the last week I have been riding in Surrey Hills, NE and Scotland.
Looks like NE and Scotland are starting to takeover Surrey for high end bikes and vans. No one there looked poor. Massive change over last 10-20yrs. Next they all going to go vegan and drink expensive plant based milk in their high end coffee. No, that’s already happened 😂😂
we have the most socialist Government for 20 , maybe 30 years, maybe more? Who would have thought they said ‘stop going to work if you are in danger, and we’ll pay 80% of your wages’.
+1
This government can be accused of many things but failing to be socialist is not one of them. In addition to directly funding literally half the economy the government has been in direct control of our lives to a degree nobody would have thought possible 18 months ago. Anyone born after WW2 has never seen a bigger state and never will again.
At the risk of this becoming a repeat of various other threads…
There are two aspects to politics. You need to have the idea and the power.
The left (labour?) need to understand that people are not going to vote for socialism. What they need to offer is what people want which in my “expert political analysis” appears to be something near to the Torys unfortunately. So aiming left enough of that to get affect change but pick up enough ideas to get into power would be a good start. There’s no point winning the arguement on the margins of government.
Oh, and I’d suggest bare faced lies as well. Seems to have worked for Johnson. Tell them Brexit was amazing, we’ll deport all the brown people, get voted in, rejoin the EU, give everyone free broadband.
TBH That's pretty much on the mark, listening to the Vox pops and Labour door-stepper testimony Corbyn and Brexit cast a shadow over these local elections.
Labour's biggest success in my lifetime? Still Blair.
Who to some extent aped the 90s city boys and "professional classes" to score votes from natural Tories. In the late 90s the voting habits of what had been a Tory inclined demographic changed and we had a Decade of "New Labour" which sadly didn't change much socially.
Cameron marked an apparent drift to the centre for the Tories and some slicker presentation to woo some enough of them back. It worked for a bit but the current cluster was brewing under his nose the whole time... the EU split being the ignition point.
Boris's current popularity Stems from two main things, most obviously He's well and truly part of the "Elite" he claims to be smashing (He first took office as an MP about 2 Decades ago). So the old guard know this and are still happy to support the real project irrespective of what the figurehead says and does. Their wealthy, establishment core is largely intact.
Secondly the old Left/Right and Class divisions have pretty much gone for many who would have been "working class" under the old definitions. They don't care about Fatcher, expensive wall paper or shagging about they want someone to facilitate (or at least bang on about) "Change" so they can win big money and lease a new Merc, facilitating aspirational greed.
And for those not politically or intellectually engaged, Boris's appeal is almost on an "entertainment" level. He's like the strange Tory love child of Jeremy Clarkson and Oliver Reed, creating a "safe space" for people to indulge in lazy popularist Bigotry under the heading of "telling it like it is" and whole heartedly leaning into his vices so he can wear a lovable rogue badge... the "Brand" isn't conservatism it's Boris, the voters who've put a cross next to 'Conservative' in the last two elections have had his podgy face in mind as they did it, not the MP or Councillor that actually scored their vote, it's worked.
So the sleeze doesn't stick, corruption is apparently an acceptable price for installing a "disruptor" who "gets things done".
Socialism (whatever that even is anymore) and "leftist", "liberal" politics are unfashionable, slapped down by the meeja, and will not score Labour any power...
And what even is the makeup of the UK's "Labour" force these days? those at the bottom of the wage pile?
It's not miners, machinists or steel workers, those sort of professions are dwindled to almost nothing.
No it's un-unionised Retail workers, call centre staff and service sector employees, those stuck at on the bottom rungs of the Gig economy with mounting debts for a degree that hasn't benefitted them, while their employment rights are eroded, and their parents generation clap along...
That is where Labour's missing votes are...
Honestly **** the "red-Wall Man on the street" 40-50something idiot frittering his kids future away because the Sun said it was the right idea. They've ditched Labour, so Labour needs to ditch them. Instead the party needs to speak to their kids, maybe even to their grandparents (who might have a different perspective on things) but Labour needs stop trying to appeal to everyone and start appealing to those, who over the coming decade, are going to feel the bite from Boris's little adventure in government...
I don't think Kier stands a chance of winning the next GE, I doubt his successor will either it's going to take a full generation, who are still maturing, to actually push back on this current greed focussed regime, sold on a thin veneer of Jingoistic nationalism and sneering libertarianism. The current chapter of the "Culture Wars" has been lost in the UK.
Socialism (whatever that even is anymore)
Except, as repeatedly pointed out, we've had possibly the most oppressive*, most socialist government since WW2.
*against their own will perhaps, they'd probably have actually had to be less oppressive if they'd just swallowed their pride and done it sooner.
people to indulge in lazy popularist Bigotry under the heading of “telling it like it is”
I'm not sure if blinkered is the right word to describe a complete lack of self awareness, but
Honestly **** the “red-Wall Man on the street” 40-50something idiot frittering his kids future away because the Sun said it was the right idea.
The problem is you will never win an argument with statements like that. Standing wherever you are in the country and pointing at the North-ish of England and saying "it's your fault your poverty-stricken Sun reading imbecile" won't convince them that you're right. Maybe spend a few minutes trying to figure out why they don't believe a word your saying (starting with the insult throwing) and then try re-framing your arguments. Or rather you'll need an argument, not just a half page diatrade about you being right and if only poor people weren't so stupid they'd realize it.
*against their own will perhaps
Yes and I can't see them waiting that long to bring back austerity on steriods (as we 'have' to pay back all this largesse over the last 18 months).
Yes and I can’t see them waiting that long to bring back austerity on steroids (as we ‘have’ to pay back all this largesse over the last 18 months).
With a General election coming in 2 years time a 24 month spendathon with borrowed money seems far more likely. They can blame Covid and leave the mess for the next government to sort out.
Maybe spend a few minutes trying to figure out why they don’t believe a word you're saying (starting with the insult throwing) and then try re-framing your arguments. Or rather you’ll need an argument, not just a half page diatribe about you being right and if only poor people weren’t so stupid they’d realize it.
+1
I think, as others have said, that society is increasingly selfish and attention spans shortening. With the perceived increased stresses of life, if you're in control then you just need to throw out a few soundbites and demonise the unknown. Most people don't give a fig so as long as they're not directly threatened then they prefer the status quo. Heck even traditionally critical thinking degrees like history are being eroded in favour of STEM with the emphasis on income.
This government can be accused of many things but failing to be socialist is not one of them.
Let's see how socialist they are in 2 years time. They had little choice during pandemic as the country would have had a bigger problem if they didn't do what they did and they knew it.
However, will they continue being 'socialist; or will they revert to form. Any hint of the austerity word and we will know for sure.
I don’t think Kier stands a chance of winning the next GE, I doubt his successor will either it’s going to take a full generation, ...
Or two to three generations ...
It is not for Labour to win but for Conservative to lose.
The problem is you will never win an argument with statements like that. Standing wherever you are in the country and pointing at the North-ish of England and saying “it’s your fault your poverty-stricken Sun reading imbecile” won’t convince them that you’re right. Maybe spend a few minutes trying to figure out why they don’t believe a word your saying (starting with the insult throwing) and then try re-framing your arguments.
Don't try and make this into a North/South thing, it's about those jumping on the Tory bandwagon believing there's something in it for them, irrespective of where they live...
As nice as it would be to think they're receptive to constructive, reasoned debate, we're five years into it and and those middle-aged flippers are clearly fine with covering their ears and ignoring facts. Let's be honest if you consistently back a party full of bastards of, you're probably a bit of a bastard yourself.
It's a waste of breath, There's no conciliation to be had, they've already gotten what they voted for. Things will have to run their course.
Labour if they continue to be the party of working people, they need to focus on different groups, those that don't figure in the current vision, the generation that is going to pay the price for their parents folly is a good place to start IMO...
Admonish me for inflammatory language, it's no worse than what's coming the other way...
So yeah. **** Em!
The Torys have massively over promised on Brexit and this term in parliament. It will all change in 5 years as the country begins to understand just how long they have been in power and what they have delivered. They have an absolute mountain to climb and Labour plus others have time to regroup and make a new type of politics hopefully aimed at the young. We will never see old school socialism again but we will see a more caring form of government when the current lot fail
I – perhaps mistakenly, it seems – consider ‘wokeism’ to be intellectual navel gazing over semantics or issues that are important...
Yes, navelgazing subjects such as global warming, whether refugees deserve refuge, or indeed any issue of social justice.
... only to vanishingly small parts of the populace.
Yep.
Socialism isn't dead, it just needs re-branding.
Was talking to my wife about this and she’s adamant that Labour need to leave the working classes behind. They seem intent on voting Tory, as do the upper classes. Labour need to focus on the middle classes and the educated, somewhat like the Democrats on the USA.
Expand that base and maybe, just maybe they could get back in. But they need to accept that places like Hartlepool are long gone.
What Labour should do is secretly start a new even worse even more populist party, UKIP style. That'd get loads of support, split the Tory vote but not enough to win seats.
They just aren't thinking ruthlessly enough.
Socialism isn’t dead, it just needs re-branding.
Exactly. Poorer people still hate fat cats and toffs, and they want to look after themselves and people like them. That's why when they vote Tory it's so paradoxical, and can only be media-led.
Labour is dead - it has been overrun by the loony left and has lost the respect of normal, common sense folk.
Boris is now supplying all the socialism that most people want, there is no reason to vote labour anymore. Folk want meritocracy not endless handouts for the scroungers.
it has been overrun by the loony left and has lost the respect of normal, common sense folk
I think its biggest problem isn't that - it's that people are spouting all sorts of bollocks about them for all sorts of reasons. They've just become the people everyone loves to hate, if they aren't really thinking about the issues. Most people vote on sentiment, and Labour don't have a strong brand. Nothing to do with policies and government. Boris has a strong brand, because he comes across as likeable. That's all there is to it.
And Boris isn't socialist in any way whatsoever. Anyone who thinks that has no idea what socialism means and/or what Johnson is all about.
I do have to wonder reading some of these comments, what some people actually think "socialism" is...
Labour is dead – it has been overrun by the loony left
Care to name their ‘loony left’ policies? Because that jibe just sounds like the last 20 yrs of right wing tabloidism, no offence.
I do have to wonder reading some of these comments, what some people actually think “socialism” is…
‘Selfishness’ is the one that stood out. smh
I realised a few years back (around since when t’internet gave us the US rightwing memez) that all my existing (admittedly limited) political frames of reference are increasingly in tatters. ‘Socialism’ in the UK has AFAIK always been a social democracy with a mixed economy and a trend moving ‘forward’ of eroding and selling of publicly owned companies and resources. Except now people paint it as some kind of soviet threat in a way reminiscent of the USA’s red scare propaganda. It all feels so dumbed-down and detached from reality/actual history. Another weird twist is that ‘socialists’ used to be (and be viewed as) ‘anti-globalisation’ - yet now in popular culture and social media ‘the left’ are painted and broadly, vehemently derided as the ‘globalist elite’, while the actual millionaires, billionaires and multinationals are buying up countries from the inside out, funding right wing campaigns/governments who grow the global gig economy, reducing workers rights and outsourcing wherever.
It’s all Pete Tong.
What I'm interested in having spent lots of time understanding the Government finances and how it's taken the Pandemic for people to see they don't need to tax and spend (see other discussions or read Stephanie Kelton's amazing book) - is whether they revert to type.
Sunak is quiet at the moment and he's very old school - he's clearly been told to stay out of the way as was one of the proponents of get back to work asap.
Anyway inflation is barely moving and there are dark days ahead - there's no way we can't move forward without more Government money, but whether the Tories will claim we need to pay it back (clue we don't) the economy will even generate growth going forward like we have seen in the past is unlikely.
The recent forecast and excitement about a jump in growth is ridiculous given everything has been on its knees.
Labour is dead – it has been overrun by the loony left and has lost the respect of normal, common sense folk.
Boris is now supplying all the socialism that most people want, there is no reason to vote labour anymore. Folk want meritocracy not endless handouts for the scroungers.
A good example of what they are up against and the selfish attitudes that exist.
A lot of people are as ignorant as this - loony left (from the 80's?), anyone struggling/less privileged is a scrounger and so on.
The recent forecast and excitement about a jump in growth is ridiculous given everything has been on its knees.
Exactly. As soon as shops open people go shopping, as soon as hospitality opens people will eat out/stay in hotels etc,., as soon as hairdressers open people with get their hair done and so on.
The demand has not gone away, the supply was cut off.
People vote Conservative because there is no viable alternative in their eyes. They can't trust the other parties to handle the economy, their jobs and homes, education and healthcare because of how incompetent, odd, plain weird their leadership appear. And too many of their supporters are frequently symptomatic of failing to "clean house". Antagonistic, insult spewing, foaming at the mouth, rabid, violence threatening, claiming to be inclusive but anti-specific-group racists. Behind the scenes there is an army of grey civil service workers that do the "real" work once decisions have been made.
I don't care which flavour of government is in power. Hell, I've lived under democracies, dictators, theocracies and now single party communism. But right now, and my family/kids are back in the UK, I'm concerned the UK jobs sector was pushed for a long time into underpaid service sector roles. A sector that was smashed by the pandemic. A sector that shows it's vulnerable to all sorts of impacts. And the government kept trying to reopen it, rather than have a serious look at changing the way we live, and I'm thinking it's because their friends/donors/neighbours operate large businesses in that sector and will lose their income stream if it goes away.
I think what this Tory government has done so successfully, with the help of the right wing press and social media, is to draw people into their sphere of influence and once there, turn it into an echo chamber that they’re almost never going to escape from. They find most of the mates and family in there and any effort a small number might make to peer out, is met with fear inducing rhetoric, downright lies (with no risk any more of any recourse for this) or some nostalgic propganda that quickly snaps the lid shut.
I therefore agree with some earlier posts that in the face of this, Labour are toast for at least a generation as those already boxed up and voting Tory now are gone IMO.
Without major reform to the way most people consume media which seems highly unlikely to happen, Labour need to target those not already boxed up Tory (like the young etc mentioned earlier) and work bloody hard to keep hold of them, which may still not be enough. The odds are well stacked against them unfortunately.
Was talking to my wife about this and she’s adamant that Labour need to leave the working classes behind
No. 100% no.
How's targeting the middle classes working out for the Lib Dems?
Simply giving up on the section of the population that would benefit the most from you being in power because they currently don't vote for you is Labours problem to fix, not to ignore.
Socialism is what people think it is. There's no point trying to argue the finer points of definition.
I don't think labour are toast. Things can swing rapidly - Johnson is riding a wave of vaccine rollout/lockdown ending. In two years he may not have the momentum.
I'm coming to the opinion that while Starmer would be a very competent leader he doesn't have the X factor to deal with Johnson. He would do well against a less charismatic leader where there was a debate but that's not where we are. Not sure who would make a good leader. I think politics has moved away from older ideas of left and right at the present time. I'm not sure what Labours USP is right now. How do they capture the public's attention and demonstrate that if they are voted in they will bring positive change. Again, not talking about the in depth academic arguements, I'm talking 3 word slogans and sound bites.
Agree, Starmer would be a sensible choice but the UK is not into sensible choices
As for 3 word slogans, "For the many, not the few"? summed it up well but "Get Brexit done" seemed to trump it but that was admittedly an easy one with the given audience.
Be interesting to see what the slogans are next time but I am really not sure how a party trying to promote a more caring society appeals to a society that doesn't care.
I’m not sure what Labours USP is right now. How do they capture the public’s attention and demonstrate that if they are voted in they will bring positive change. Again, not talking about the in depth academic arguements, I’m talking 3 word slogans and sound bites.
This is the real issue. There's no point in them trying to speak to "lefty loonies" like me, not voting Tory is ingrained in my DNA.
And while I'm not going to be kina about the class traitors that turned Tory, I do get it, in a society dripping with it mages of aspirational wealth, it's easy to notice when you've been left behind and marginalised. That was leveraged to sell Brexit and is now being used to sustain the Boris party's grip on power...
But you're right, these days sloganeering, presentation and sheer stupid, visible stunts win support. Labour will need some of that too...
Folk want meritocracy not endless handouts for the scroungers.
Poorer people still hate fat cats and toffs, and they want to look after themselves and people like them.
I think both of those are true. I'm what should be a Labour voter, but there is no way I'd be voting for them. Too many 'causes' that they support. F.. them is what I would say is a typical response from people if I ask them at work about Labour.
I work in Social Housing. Prime Labour territory, but the people, mostly, think Labour are a joke. They hate the Scroungers, and there are many of them around. They hate the rich who try to dodge their taxes.
Labour are perceived to support the scroungers. People arriving illegally on boats, the usual response is to take them back to where they came from, or, less commonly, but not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent, they see things differently to the London Centric Labour view. Labour really do live on a different planet. Sending a Remain Candidate to a 70% Leave constituency election.
As for this election, does it matter that much? In itself no, Labour will likely do as well as they usually do in Scotland
So, not?
Hate to break this to you but Labour has been a lost cause in Scotland for years now, they are currently being beaten 38:4:3:2 by SNP, Libs and Tories respectively. That's thanks to a revolving door of poor leadership, antagonistic policies (vote down anything the SNP propose even if it's your own policy) and downright self harm (vote Tories to keep SNP out!).
Labour are perceived to support the scroungers. People arriving illegally on boats, the usual response is to take them back to where they came from, or, less commonly, but not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent, they see things differently to the London Centric Labour view.
No, they are, and utter ****s to boot.
Thanks @alanl
Voices like this are needed on these threads otherwise it reverts to the same circular arguments.
With regards to this mindset:
People arriving illegally on boats, ..... less commonly, but not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.
I find this view utterly abhorrent, and would never ever consider voting for a party that even hinted at taking a view even close to this. I'd like to hope I'm not alone in thinking that.
What do you think is the best way for Labour to get through to people who think like this and turn that opinion around?
not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent
Uncaring heartless monsters rather than racists then?
Honestly I used to be very anti religion but there's a lot of people in this country rn who it seems did need to be brainwashed into thinking they had to be good or they would go to hell.
Parliamentary politics has moved from left to right tp right to right. Two economically conservative parties but one socially liberal and the other socially conservative (paradoxically Johnson's), there's your choice. Haystack or brilliantine.
I gave up the Guardian in 2017 and now thinking of ditching the NS. These journals used to (occasionally) employ socialists, now the only entertainment is in spotting how they sneak in their AC tropes and smears.
However, we have known this all along it's just that in a crisis you get a much clearer picture of who stands for what. The state of the LP is not a reliable indicator of the prevalence of socialist ideas, wtf has Adm Nelson got to do with (filthy rich) equality and (Jeffrey Epstein) justice? Westminster is definitely a 'self service' super market.
My thoughts are that "Labour" and "socialism" as brands are irreparably damaged. Speaking from personal experience / observation in my area, the aggressively vocal and dogmatic, middle class Momentum types (who miss the irony that they are part of the gentrification problem hurting communities) have massively disengaged the traditional Labour audience.
When they were campaigning in the run up to the local elections here, the focus was all about "causes", "equality", protest politics etc, rather than important localised grass roots concerns like housing, illegal redevelopment of a green space by a developer (that the incumbent Labour council aren't doing much about), transport so the area isn't cut off, the closure of a major factory/warehouse that employed many locals.
As a result, the perception is that middle class "campaigner/activist" types are running things and aren't interested in the traditional voters, and when challenged on this, they become aggressive, condescending and resort to the usual "gammons/bigots/idiots/racists/selfish" tropes rather than listening, engaging and acting on behalf of the people whose votes they want.
There needs to be a fundamental shift in the visible makeup of the Labour Party and a concerted effort to re-engage positively if they ever want to get in power again.