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I didn’t experience that unpleasantness (I know some people got a bit worked up about it). Plenty of disagreement (my family voted in different ways) but we didn’t fall out about it. Most folk manage to cope with people having different political viewpoints.
That's my experience too. I sometimes wonder if folk mentioning division are using it as shorthand for "we won, you lost, we're not doing it again", especially as we see the same thing coming from the Leavers.
Luckily he wasn’t. Ifs buts and maybes are just that.
I posed the question as a thought experiment.
I think someone like him would not have gained as much traction in Scotland as it stands. He would not have been able to generate hubris from history in the same way.
Which is in itself an interesting thought. How much does England's history affect its politics, and why not Britain's? It was. British Empire after all... Wasn't it?
He would not have been able to generate hubris from history in the same way.
*cough* Salmond*cough*
Which is in itself an interesting thought. How much does England’s history affect its politics, and why not Britain’s? It was. British Empire after all… Wasn’t it?
It can sound a bit like "My Nationalism is better than you Nationalism" but there definitely are differences.
You've only got to look at the franchises for the different referendums.
When the independence movement articulated that it wasn't about the "Scottish People" rather the "People of Scotland" an important distinction was made, one that seems to have been stood by too.
I could go on; but I don’t want to many spoilers for anybody else.
Yes you could go on. Nice appeal to authority followed by, well, nothing really apart from a superiority complex.
It really is like talking to the brexiteers spiritual twins.
Interesting point on history in schools scotroutes. Mine ( glasgow comp in the 70s) was totally the opposite - all we learned was scottish history - nothing about english kings / queens at all except as they related to Scotland
richmtb. Indeed. I am one of "the people of scotland". I am not one of "the scots people" and although its only anecdote and obviously the people I mix with are now different I do not feel an outsider now despite my english name and accent compared to 40 years ago.
the constant emphasis on inclusion means that the anti english sentiment is now right on the fringes compared to 40 years ago when it was more mainstream nationalism
I have experienced anti english racism in the past but not in the last 15 years in any way.
1066 and the Magna Carta were both explained as pivotal points in our history – and both are mainly irrelevant.
Whilst history has generally been shite in schools to be honest both of those events were fairly significant to all of the UK not just England.
1066 set the scene for a fair number of the conflicts throughout the middle ages. WIthout it for example the Auld alliance may or may not have been required. The norman nobility also had a fairly significant impact on the Scottish nobility in terms of marrying in etc.
Magna Carta came in fairly important in the war of the three kingdoms and controlling the Stuarts.
An anecdote on the assertion about unpleasantness in the independence referndum
My parents actually went out campaigning for NO. On the way to set up a leaflet stall my mother met a man obviously doing the same thing. She asked which side. He said YES. they had a little discussion, wished each other luck and set up their stalls a few yards apart.
The nastiness was overwhelmingly from the NO side as shown in collated data including from the police and when Murphy tried to raise the spectre of nationalist intimidation he was firmly put in his place by the chief constable for talking utter nonsense. I suspect the knuckle draggers of the sectarian unionists were the main drivers of any nastiness. I saw zero nastiness at all - even when discussion got heated and I have unionists in my family and friends.
It seemed a fair question dissonance, you don't seem able to answer it? I am sorry mentioning an author who disagrees with you is seen as an appeal to authority and an indicator of a superiority complex, good attempt at deflection of your BS though. You are like an angry version of THM, with about as much of a clue about Scotland, I wonder if the Mods should check your log in?
Back on topic; with regards to education, there is a compulsory Scottish element to all Nat 4/5 and Higher classes in Scottish schools. With regards to the poster earlier who said we ignore the darker parts, the Higher course looks at the impact of Scots on existing native societies and at N5 lots of schools do the Atlantic Slave Trade as a topic which covers the sugar trade and British slavery. At my place we look at a boat built in the town and its conversion to carry slaves.
I suspect the knuckle draggers of the sectarian unionists were the main drivers of any nastiness.
You are being very selective in your memory I think TJ. There was a lot of nastiness on both sides. Remember the abuse thrown at people like JK Rowling when she expressed an opinion. The bullying from the cybernats is generally acknowledged (even by the SNP) as having been totally unacceptable. Try reading some of the comments on the Wings Over Scotland website if you want to see what abuse looks like.
I've had loads of political debate over the years with people of all shades of opinion. However I can honestly say that the only time I've been called a traitor, been threatened, been spat at and been told to **** off back to England has been by Scottish nationalists.
Having said that though, the vast majority of SNP voters are absolutely fine decent people. I generally respect their points of view even if I largely disagree with them (apart from that colonial drivel that epiccyclo drones on about). Of all my friends and family that I debated with there was only one major fall out, and that was from a "friend" who, the day after the result" posted something on Facebook about No voters such as myself being "utter scum who should hang their heads in shame" and a lot more along those lines.
That is fairly one sided Kenny. Smash the SNP, Do not break our unity, are good example of britnats on Facebook if you want to see what Unionist abuse looks like, (whole threads glorying in Sturgeon being childless...) And then we have the lovely Alistair McConnochie, expelled from UKIP for his views of the Holocaust who is in the habit of turning up to SNP marches trying to start a fight. (hasn't managed yet) If we factor in the Unionists and their Nazi salutes in George square as well then the picture of the poor Unionists being the victims doesn't carry any water. As for the whole being told to go back where you came from...That isn't confined to Scots on English.
Now, I can't be arsed with the freedoooommmmm school of nationalism, but equally I have no time for the Rule Britannia brand of Unionism. But then I can afford to be relaxed. Independence is coming, In a perfect world it would be a realisation that the union is done and it is time to just go our separate ways.
KennyP - there was significant statistical analysis of it done and IIRC it was more than twice the abusive incidents came from the unionist side including several prosecutions for violence and not a single prosecution from the independence side ( from memory)
I did not claim the unionists were the only transgressors just that the vast majority of the unpleasantness came from the unionist side and the unionist politicians tried to talk it up and that backfired badly. If you listened to and believed the unionist politicians you were led to believe something very different happened from what actually did happen
Duckman, yes my post was one sided generally speaking. However I did point out there was a lot of nastiness on both sides. There still is. I was responding to TJ’s assertion that all the nastiness came from the unionist side. All I was doing was pointing out examples of nastiness from the nationalist side.
Also as TJ used anecdotal evidence of his own I thought it fair just to use the evidence I experienced.
Anyone mocking Nicola Sturgeon for being childless is a nasty idiot that does no help to the unionist argument. Same with the nationalist abuse and threats thrown at Neil Oliver. JK Rowling and many others.
Im more than happy to condem abuse coming from both sides. I presume you are too?
Surely TJ isn't attempting to smear the unionist cause by associating it with violence?
Kenny, see my opening remark in my second paragraph. I believe Scotland will be an independent country and we will have better thing to do that truth and justice reconciliation meetings between the two extremes. I also think that the SNP will be replaced as Labour, the L/Dems and possibly, but probably not; the Tories position themselves in the centre left ground. And that will hopefully dilute the both more strident nationalists and remove the focus of hatred for the similar Unionists, although the likes of the Orange order and the SnG are so entrenched that maybe some sort of hunger games on a remote island might be the best plan.
EDIT; And Neil Oliver is a dick who loves the attention. His column in the Times is designed to poke Nationalists with a stick.
the vast majority of the unpleasantness came from the unionist side
Sorry, but there isn't a shred of credible evidence to back that up. I mentioned before about being spat at and threatened by nationalist supporters. I know of umpteen friends who refused to put NO stickers in their cars for fear of having their windows smashed. Countless more stories along those lines. The SNP leadership put out various warnings to their supporters not being abusive (as did the unionists before you say it).
dilute the both more strident nationalists and remove the focus of hatred for the similar Unionists
With one side you use the word "strident" but the other "hatred".
So anyway chaps, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree with each other on this one. I'm pretty relaxed too; Nicola did have a chance to force a vote just after the Brexit result but she hesitated and the chance has now gone. Have a grand evening both of you.
You seem desperate to try and trip me up. What was my ultimate solution for both sides? But that wouldn't fit the narrative you insist upon.
I've neither the need, nor the desire, to trip you up. I was merely illustrating the fact you chose to use the word "strident" in relation to the side you agree with, and "hatred" in relation to the side you disagree with. Two words with very different meanings.
And I'm not sure what narrative I'm insisting on. I was simply pointing out that to claim the vast majority of abusive behaviour came from the one side was obviously incorrect.
I didn't experience any abuse during the referendum campaign. I think there's no excuse for abuse from either side . The bit that irks me is the amount of sneering inaccurate articles written by some of the best payed journalists who used to their platform to vilify and denigrate the whole group of yes campaigners, thus keeping on the right side of the law but then squealed in outrage at online criticism of the media.It seems they were happy to use their skills and access to media platforms to misrepresent a big group of ordinary people. Then having provoked a reaction they claimed to be " afraid"
Kennyp - yes there is good and credible evidence that the vast majority came from the unionist side including prosecutions. That is a simple statement of fact.
Oh go on then TJ, I'll bite......what is this evidence? Any links?
Dunno if I can find them now. I'll have a look.
One was an analysis of twitter and other social media by IIRC the university of stathclyde, the other simply the reporting of prosecutions
Now, I can’t be arsed with the freedoooommmmm school of nationalism, but equally I have no time for the Rule Britannia brand of Unionism. But then I can afford to be relaxed. Independence is coming, In a perfect world it would be a realisation that the union is done and it is time to just go our separate ways.
Perfectly put, sir.
I can't find them and obviously as I stated it worked both ways but there was a big analysis of the online stuff and it was clear the majority was from unionists and prosecutions also heavily biased towards unionists being prosecuted. I'll keep looking but my computer is playng up
Its not the impression you got from the mainstream press but its the actual truth the unionist side where far greater in volume and nastyness
Remember the unionist councillor bussed from NI in who kicked a pregnant woman? remember the threats against Andy Murray?
It's pointless anyway, our fans are better than yours, really? Load of shite.
Let's have a discussion, not a petty playground squabble.
wish people would stop going on about the nastiness of it all, I'm sure some of it happened, but it was an insignificant minority, and largely confined to twitter, it's not really worth talking about.
Lets just agree there are a few bams on both sides and move on. Who has more is irrelevant, but small groups exist on either side and they ain't going away.
Add to that, calling people a bunch of Cs isn't really the best way to convince them to come over to your side.
How to convince people of the merits of your opinion, and change theirs is what you really want to be thinking about, given the absolute stalemate in numbers. You need to view unionists as potential yes voters, not the enemy, and act accordingly.
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Try reading some of the comments on the Wings Over Scotland website if you want to see what abuse looks like.
A mate of my dad's got the shit kicked out of him for working on a Yes stand in Gorgie. He's 60. That happened in the same week that Jim Murphy got hit by an egg, which did you hear more about? (half the coverage in the Scotsman was George Fowkes claiming that there wasn;t that big a deal, there was no evidence it was No supporters, and that it'd been trumped up to distract from the unspeakable egg incident)
And how about referendum night in Glasgow?
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Abuse on the internet is shit but it's a different level of shit to getting a mob together to batter a grandad.
Farage, English by chance.
****er by choice.
I don’t always agree with Seosamh, but that post wins this thread!