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Starting to see a few articles in this vein.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/10/england-s-political-narcissism-could-break-union
It seems that one the whole, Brexiters are not too concerned about breaking up the UK - a bunch of Little Englanders with false memories of Empire, basically.
/grossgeneralisation mode
I have thought for a little while it is the Untied Kingdom and we've been living with an historic typo (quillo?) for hundreds of years.
Interesting interview with Billy Connelly in some of today's papers in this regard.
Was Brexit actually England’s independence referendum?
If they had an ounce of decency it would have been after the results were in.
Who exactly are "they"?
I wonder how that writer would handle if Scotland was ignored in the way he ignores the Welsh?
The final couple of paragraphs are interesting. I do wonder how that certain kind of Scottish nationalist who rants and raves about not having disproportionate power in the UK will handle being a far small fish in the EU.
The problem with going off to read news articles online is sometimes you accidentally read the comments
</span>T<span class="comment-text">his is the "Parkinsons" talking I take it.
****ing prick
Anyway, in response to the OP. Yes probably.
Written as if the opinion of the English is uniformly and united. The thing that
I do think that Brexit will result in the split up of the UK. Not sure on what the final split will be though.
I do wonder how that certain kind of Scottish nationalist who rants and raves about not having disproportionate power in the UK will handle being a far small fish in the EU.
"Don't they know how unimportant they are?!"
> sigh <
“Don’t they know how unimportant they are?!”
> sigh <
Do you need me to use smaller words so you dont need to create strawmen?
dissonance
...I do wonder how that certain kind of Scottish nationalist who rants and raves about not having disproportionate power in the UK will handle being a far small fish in the EU.
Well if we didn't like it, we could leave within a couple of years without asking their permission and having to have uprising after uprising for 300 years.... 🙂
Basically, the people who make the most noises about patriotism and how special the UK is, seem not to give very much of a shit about the UK- almost as if it's just a convenient dogwhistle eh. David Cameron said he was pro-union then post-referendum said that Scottish people shouldn't be allowed power in parliament, but that now seems mild compared to the brexit ultras. It's really weird- kind of like how modern right wing "patriots" are always bashing their own country, they're really recreants rather than patriots.
The biggest loser if the UK breaks up will clearly be Wales.
David Cameron said he was pro-union then post-referendum said that Scottish people shouldn’t be allowed power in parliament
Dont suppose you have a direct quote do you?
dissonance
Dont suppose you have a direct quote do you?
I can't think of one, but his speech immediately after the Scottish referendum made it pretty clear with EVEL.
Nothing against that idea, long since necessary IMO, but it should be backed up with SVSL.
It's kind of obvious anyway. We're outnumbered in Westminster and over ruled over Scottish issues because we are outnumbered by English MPs voting against us.
However we're not here to discuss Scotland's efforts to disentangle itself from the UK, but the readiness of the Brexiteers to dismember the UK to get what the nations of England and Wales voted for, ie leave.
Are Brexiteers going to do the job Scottish independence supporters have been working towards for over 100 years?
I can’t think of one, but his speech immediately after the Scottish referendum made it pretty clear with EVEL.
No it really doesn't. The claim being made was "shouldn't be allowed power" which is rather different than the, admittedly, dogs dinner proposal around separating out English specific law making.
We’re outnumbered in Westminster and over ruled over Scottish issues because we are outnumbered by English MPs voting against us.
Which ones do you have in mind? Its not like the "English MPs" exactly vote in a block.
dissonance
...Which ones do you have in mind? Its not like the “English MPs” exactly vote in a block.
Who they are is irrelevant. They outnumber us whatever their party and they vote against our issues.
But I think you're trying to divert the thread.
Have you seen what the foreign press is saying about Brexit?
There was a good article about this i the Guardian last week.. Now Brexit really is threatening to tear the UK apart
I've always half-joked that what the UK really needs is independence for the South East, and then the rest of us could get on just fine. I wish we'd have had a ****ing referendum on that instead
Could happen. I reckon that if it wasn't for needing the DUP then the tories* would have put the trade border down the irish sea and not thought twice about it. How May must be ruing the silly election she called.
*yes I'm aware that their proper name is conservative and unionist party but it matters not to the likes of the Davis/Mogg/etc brigade, they only look out for themselves
If there is no deal, or even no customs union then SNP will be talking to the EU and will organise their own vote and they will be gone, imagine the switch to Km/H as you drive past Gretna... which would require Scotland either standing up their own currency (v.unlikely) or the Euro !
They outnumber us whatever their party and they vote against our issues.
So some examples? Frankly you are sounding like a certain variant of brexiteer who wants to blame everything on the other. Since the brexiteers cant really use the UK they go for the EU instead.
Have you seen what the foreign press is saying about Brexit?
That its a complete shambles? Not really unexpected is it? Leaving aside everything else a good enough reason to vote remain was my belief it would end up a complete mess. Although to give credit where credit due they have been far worse then I thought was possible.
I think you are the one diverting the thread. This seems to be about how bad the "English" are (ignoring the poor Welsh or all those English who arent in favour plus all those Scots who do want brexit)
I’ve always half-joked that what the UK really needs is independence for the South East, and then the rest of us could get on just fine. I wish we’d have had a ****ing referendum on that instead
Except that London is very strongly pro-remain.
This seems to be about how bad the “English” are…
…at taking into account the views and needs of those living in other countries in the "union" when making major decisions?
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Dont suppose you have a direct quote do you?
"We cannot allow these people to have power in our parliament". "These people" being the SNP, the elected representatives in almost every seat in Scotland.
And he didn't even say it as an attack on the SNP- he used it as an attack on Ed Miliband, as part of the whole demented "a coalition government is a terrible idea and ends up run by the minority party" that he somehow managed to run with while leader of a coalition government.
Now I appreciate that this was all just because David Cameron was a collosal ****, rather than it being an actial attack on the Scots, but that just proves the point even more nicely- he was happy to undermine the union purely to win a couple of votes in a single election that he was already pretty confident he was going to win. He doesn't hate the union, he just really doesn't give a shit about it.
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“These people” being the SNP, the elected representatives in almost every seat in Scotland.
I cant find that specific quote however assuming it is correct it is extremely different from your claim about "Scottish People". That is pretty much brexiteer levels of dishonesty. Given the current mess with the DUP I am not sure he is entirely wrong about the potential for coalitions to go pearshaped either.
at taking into account the views and needs of those living in other countries in the “union” when making major decisions?
and that makes them different from the others either? Are you trying to claim the Scottish were busy thinking hard about whether or not someone living in Doncaster would benefit or not before casting their vote for leave.
You don't think attacking the SNP who 50% of scots voted for in that way is not an attack on the scottish people? Its clearly saying we don't care about you at all - we are going to ignore your elected representatives. couple that with the EVEL nonsense and you can see how it looks - and I have never even voted SNP but I tiook that as an insult to alol scots.
Are you trying to claim the Scottish were busy thinking hard about whether or not someone living in Doncaster would benefit or not before casting their vote for leave.
Actually this was quite a common point and one I really struggled with - feeling if voting for independence I was leaving my brothers and sisters in the north of england in the shit. International solidarity and all that. This really was a not infrequent theme in the independence debate.
<p>the SNP who 50% of scots voted for</p>
<p>When? I'm pretty sure they have never had a majority share of the vote although I'll stand corrected if this isn't the case.</p>
2015 general election - the one after which Cameron made those statements
SNO 56 of 59 seats on 50% of the vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland#2015
It's as if Wales never even existed on the "UK" political radar!
Oh wait ..
No it still doesn't.
<p>TJ - ta, couldn't find that. Must have been thinking of another election.</p>
dissonance
So some examples?...
Come off it. You have obviously been following the process so you know full well, you're just trying diversion, and that is a different discussion.
And it's not about the "bad English". Every nation is perfectly entitled to act on a democratic decision. England's is to leave the EU and there are obstacles in the way.
The media have woken up to Scotland and NI being very big flies in the ointment. (They don't seem to regard the Welsh in that light)
The press are speculating it would benefit the Tory Party to get rid of Scotland and NI because then there would be no obstacles to Brexit, and with just England & Wales to take into account they would be sitting on a majority in England & Wales for the foreseeable future.
(I believe the Irish Times also ran an article along those lines recently)
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I cant find that specific quote however assuming it is correct it is extremely different from your claim about “Scottish People”. That is pretty much brexiteer levels of dishonesty
Bugger off, II give you too much credit to believe you actually think that. It's not any different at all from what I said, as you know since it's for the exact reasons I've already said. He declared that the elected representatives for the overwhelming majority of scots shouldn't have a say in our parliament. Of course, when I say "our" parliament I mean the UK one whereas he obviously meant something very different.
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Now i can feel in my bones the response about "half of scots", so before you try that one, no. The SNP held almost every seat. Your MP is your representative regardless of who you personally voted for (possibly a strange idea to Cameron, but it's still true). So he wasn't just saying that the SNP should have no power despite their democratic mandate- which needless to remind you, was a lot stronger than his own- he was saying that scots in their seats who hadn't even voted for them should also have no power.
But it's not about the SNP or even about Cameron, it's just an example of how these people think. The union is like anything else,just a playing piece in the game that politics is for them.They claim patriotism and fellowship while proving they have none. Cameron was a "patriot" who chose to undermine the country, Farage is a "patriot" who'll happily trash our economy then run off to America when the going gets tough, to hang out with his mate Trump, a patriot who poisons rivers.
Northwind +1
Another +1 for Northwind.
I see the Chair of the Exeter Tories has publicly said NI should be dropped.
He declared that the elected representatives for the overwhelming majority of scots shouldn’t have a say in our parliament.
Even this is inaccurate. It was that they shouldnt be part of the government. He was arguing that there was a risk that if they went into government with Labour there would be a risk that they would be able to push policies which would disproportionately benefit them at cost to others. There is a valid argument for this and is why some argue against proportional representation (using examples such as Israel where small parties end up with disproportionate power).
Indeed you can look at the current situation with the DUP and see some of the disadvantages. Personally I would disagree with this argument against PR but to try and portray it as him believing Scottish people not having a say is frankly dishonest.
The blame the English for Brexit whilst ignoring the Welsh entirely and also discounting the people who voted the other way in each country is a tad unpleasant and not dissimilar to the approach taken by some brexiteers.
it’s just an example of how these people think
Although I disagree about the specific case I wouldnt disagree with your broader claims. However thats no reason to misrepresent Cameron.
dissonance
....The blame the English for Brexit whilst ignoring the Welsh entirely and also discounting the people who voted the other way in each country is a tad unpleasant and not dissimilar to the approach taken by some brexiteers.
Blame? England and Wales are two nations that made a democratic decision on whether they wanted to be in a Union with the nations of the EU. They have every right to do so, and their decision should be respected.
If there is criticism it is for the way it is being bungled. Moldova being a prime example.
On the other hand the nation of Scotland voted to preserve the Union with the EU and is going to fight tooth and nail to prevent a hard Brexit and to have its decision respected.
Then there is the problem of the British border on the island of Ireland. Eire is an EU member, and Brexit means this will suddenly become a hard border. However that flies in the face of the Good Friday Agreement, which is basically a ceasefire not an end to a war. Breaching the GFA is likely to have explosive consequences so a solution must be found. As long as the Tories need the DUP a re-united Ireland is not an option, but then neither is breaching the GFA. Rock & hard place.
The point is that people in the Tory party are seeing that they cannot deliver Brexit as intended because of those problems, but cutting the Gordian Knot would remove those problems.
They cannot just cast NI loose because they lose their govt majority, and then Scotland's MPs become a danger - at the moment they can be safely ignored and jeered at in parliament.
However by casting NI and Scotland adrift at the same time, suddenly there is a comfortable Tory majority in England and Wales and it is likely to stay that way for some time.
That we are seeing this being mentioned in various places in the media suggests that it is something that is being bruited around in Tory circles.
@dissonance Surely if Mr Cameron had meant he didn't want the SNP to have power in government he would have used that word and not parliament.
Blame? England and Wales are two nations that made a democratic decision on whether they wanted to be in a Union with the nations of the EU. They have every right to do so, and their decision should be respected.
No, the UK made a democratic decision. That's what being in a union means.
Of course, the Scottish Conservatives have fared much better in the Scottish government than they have in the Westminster government, and there's no reason to believe they would not continue to do so under the "nationalist extremism" of an independent Scotland!
Tories in Scotland hit a high point of what - 25% of the vote? without the PR system of holyrood they would have been wiped out
Of course, the Scottish Conservatives have fared much better in the Scottish government than they have in the Westminster government, and there’s no reason to believe they would not continue to do so under the “nationalist extremism” of an independent Scotland!
They are only doing 'much better' because they placed themselves as the 'no independence under any circumstance' party and hoovered up the die hard unionist vote. Post independence it's possible they could better as if it was a close run victory, then in any post independence general election they could mop up a lot of protest votes. There are also a lot of conservatives in Scotland who don't vote tory. Under independence, given a name change/rebranding exercise they could do quite well if they accepted the fact the union was gone.
It's quite possible they could be the party in power for a term or two at least.
To many people in Scotland, within a mere 2 years, the 'Union' purchase ceased to resemble the sales pitch. Membership of The EU was a hard selling point in the indy ref. I never thought I would say this, but perhaps Scotland needs a 'Peoples Vote'
Anyone that knows me is aware that I was staunch in by belief that the people of the UK were pulling in the same broad direction of closer ties with our nearest European neighbours.
I was disheartened when the Brexit result came in, not just at the prospect of these reduced ties, but also that the UK as an entity was in jeopardy, with a sense of having defended it, I feel badly let down by the UK that I obviously did not know as well as I had assumed. I could take parliamentary decisions I disagreed with, and Tory government after Tory government I did not vote for, however Brexit may be my line in the sand.
I don't see the result of any future indy ref as a reason to celebrate, I am just saddened to see that we are in this place. Believe me, if I am having doubts about the future of the UK, many others like me will also.
I know people who campaigned for no in the independence referendum who will now vote yes if and when we have another
England and Wales are two nations that made a democratic decision
As ransos points out it is the people of the UK who made that decision and plenty within England and Wales went against it. Just as plenty in Scotland and NI went for it.
After all if all of Scotland had voted Remain then we would have remained.
As you yourself seem to acknowledge part of the mess is down to those in NI who did want to leave and whose constituents probably voted majority leave and who definitely acted as a funnel for dubious foreign money to be spent in England for the leave campaign.
NI hasnt, until recently, directly impacted mainland politics in any
Surely if Mr Cameron had meant he didn’t want the SNP to have power in government he would have used that word and not parliament.
Could you provide the specific quote please?
The problem with Scotland / rUK is that the two countries are diverging and the rate of divergence is growing. this can only increase pressures. Scotland is much more social democratic - its a huge victory for tories to have 1/6th of the seats at westmnster from scotland and 30% of the vote. Scotland is also greener in energy policy and more european and outward looking.
diussonance - here is one and IIRC there was one posted earlier
"“The consequence is Ed Miliband cannot become prime minister without the SNP. That has a consequence for Scotland; it has a consequence for the rest of the UK. It is an appalling prospect of having a Labour prime minister propped up by a group of people who a) don’t want to be in that parliament, b) don’t want to be in that country, c) would like to see the whole thing break up. In the meantime [they] are going to push for an economy with a borrowing, taxing and spending agenda.”
Scotland is much more social democratic
Dont suppose you have the studies proving this do you? From memory the difference in atittudes is minimal.
here is one and IIRC there was one posted earlier
That is talking about government not parliament. Given people are getting so het up about his comments it really shouldnt be hard for someone to produce it. Although even then a member of one party saying members of another party shouldnt be elected is really to be expected.
dissonance
Dont suppose you have the studies proving this do you? From memory the difference in atittudes is minimal.
Surely a string of election results trumps "studies". Full marks for another attempt to divert the issue.
Surely a string of election results trumps “studies”.
No it really doesnt. If you want to know what people think you ask them. Why people vote for a particular party is far more complex.
Full marks for another attempt to divert the issue.
Ah so you can make claims but cant be challenged on them? This really is all a bit brexiteer.
Dont suppose you have the studies proving this do you? From memory the difference in atittudes is minimal.
You are correct, no significant difference in attitudes in Social Attitudes Survey.
No it really doesnt. If you want to know what people think you ask them. Why people vote for a particular party is far more complex.
This is correct too.
Bullshine
Lets see. Ukip in Scotland have peaked at under 5% of the vote, In England at 25%. tories in scotloand consider it a huge victory to have 1/4 of the vote adn 1/6 of the seats.
On average over the last 20 years scotland has voted 80+ % for left of centre parties. Until the appaulling labour / tory non agression pact in scotland tories had 1 mp
No new nuclear in Scotland. on course for 100% renewable in under a decade. England no new renewables, huge investment in nuclear
Scotland 62% remain. England 40% remain
Scots taxes are more progressive now we have a tiny amount of taxation power with people under the national average income paying less and people above paying more. Tories tried to play the "highest tax in the uk" line and no one cared
the divergence is obvious if you live up here and are a political geek
For someone who prides themselves on being a political geek you have a very poor understanding of the subject and as always you are completely missing the point.
<p>No new nuclear in Scotland. </p>
<p>Only because one party has taken it off the agenda, to attribute our lack of building to an entire nations educated thoughts on the matter is disingenuous at best. If you think the people and communities around the existing stations wouldn't welcome another you are misinformed.</p>
No new nuclear in Scotland. on course for 100% renewable in under a decade. England no new renewables, huge investment in nuclear
Apart from the world's largest offshore wind farm, opened last month, off the Cumbrian coast.
Still, I wouldn't be dumb enough to claim it's there as a result of English political desires.
Meanwhile, here's some discussion in Germany about this topic
dissonance
No it really doesnt. If you want to know what people think you ask them. Why people vote for a particular party is far more complex.
Aye, it's called putting your vote where your mouth is. Actions trump words.
This thread may be redundant anyway. Looks like the 1922 committee is swinging into action...
Mefty - I clearly understand it far better than you if you think there is not a significant and growing divergence between scotland and england.
You oinly have to look at the voting recoreds to see it. I'll say it again. tories see it has a huge triumph to get 25% of the vote and 18% of the mps and they only got this on the back of a labour / tory anti snp pact
different attitudes to europe are obvious in the brexit vote and the number of votes UKIP get
You really can't treat England as one homogeneous group TJ any more than you can the whole UK. It's quite offensive really.
You really can’t treat England as one homogeneous group TJ any more than you can the whole UK. It’s quite offensive really.
Quiet Gammon..
Dissonance, Mefty,
If you want to know what people think you ask them
Now if that is true, and more important than how they vote (as you suggest), then perhaps on the basis of current opinion polls we should abandon Brexit - after all we’ve asked them and that beats how they voted which was more complex.
But maybe that’s not what you meant.
Just teasing you (but stop being so pious it makes it too easy) 😉
More seriously, I’m a Scot living in Yorkshire.
Pro-Scots, pro-UK, pro-EU and anti-Brexit because those views align.
If I’d had a vote in the Scots independence referendum it would have been for remaining in the U.K.
But much of the case for remaining in the U.K. is diminished by Brexit.
I’m not sure how I would cast my fictitious vote in the forthcoming so far fictitious next Scots independence vote.
Possibly, with heavy heart, to leave the U.K.
Lets see. Ukip in Scotland have peaked at under 5% of the vote
That really doesnt show what you think it does. People will vote for parties for a variety of reasons. One, sadly, frequent reason is to show discontent with the current setup. In Scotland you have the SNP promising the glories of an independent Scotland but for England we have, well, just UKIP promising the glories of an independent UK.
for left of centre parties
I am not really sure I would count the SNP as left of centre. They vary heavily between left of centre and slightly right of centre (even using the adjusted centre in the UK nowadays).
England no new renewables,
Dear god how much badly wrong could you get.
Scotland 62% remain. England 40% remain
Brexit isnt a left or right wing thing (although has mostly been portrayed as right wing). There is as much a left wing case to be made for brexit as a right wing case (plus an unaligned case). Personally I dont agree with any of them but trying to use it as a case of being more socially progressive to vote remain is a tad flawed.
Now if that is true, and more important than how they vote (as you suggest),
In understanding how people think yes it is more important. The problem with voting is you then have personalities and various pieces of bullshit laid on top.
So you can end up with someone agreeing with a parties policies but then not voting for them since the leader ate a bacon sandwich wrong and anyway everyone knows they will destroy the economy.
but stop being so pious it makes it too eas
I would say the pious ones are those with a superiority complex about how Scotland is far better than those nasty English (lets keep ignoring the Welsh).
In understanding how people think yes it is more important.
To amplify this, it isn't the snapshot that provides the power of these surveys, it is long term data that they provide which gives a very good picture of changing attitudes and divergences in opinions on a very wide range of issues. The National Crime Survey is very useful for similar reasons.
dissonance
...I would say the pious ones are those with a superiority complex about how Scotland is far better than those nasty English (lets keep ignoring the Welsh).
Getting desperate for distraction techniques, are we? Ad hominen might work, eh?
It couldn't possibly be because those people want to live in a democracy? Where their political choices are not over ridden by the choices of another country and where there is no unelected upper house.
And I'm sure the Welsh can speak for themselves.
But the whole point of this thread is that it may not be their actions that cause the break up of this Union, but the actions of the Tory party.
What's happening at No 10 today?
To amplify this, it isn’t the snapshot that provides the power of these surveys, it is long term data that they provide which gives a very good picture of changing attitudes and divergences in opinions on a very wide range of issues. The National Crime Survey is very useful for similar reasons.
Very true Mefty.
Of course on that basis, the long term trend is that we used to be anti-EU, but we are ever more pro-EU. June 2016 was in fact the last gasp of the Brexies.
I may of course disagree with you Mefty, I don’t think we’re rid of the Brexies yet, but I see your point.
Or do you only hold such comments about surveys to be true when they support your argument? 😜
Getting desperate for distraction techniques, are we? Ad hominen might work, eh?
If this entire thread wasnt about the Scottish superiority complex you might have a point. As it is effectively a long adhom against the English you dont.
Where their political choices are not over ridden by the choices of another country and where there is no unelected upper house.
The first part is common argument from the brexiteers and the unelected bit also often used by the same. You really are coming across similar to the gammons here.
They are very different sets of data.
The Social Attitudes data is a 40 year study in our attitude to political issues in a non-partisan way, hence its value for discerning changes in attitudes.
That Brexit data is on a much more partisan issue, albeit one which crosses typical party lines, and over a much shorter term so it has a different quality. It is still useful and I don't dismiss it, I just think you read too much in tiny changes. As John Curtice concludes his most recent article on the same site:
But nowhere is this more clearly the case than in respect of the perceived economic consequences of Brexit. Very strong Remainers are almost unanimous in believing that Brexit will make Britain’s economy worse off. In contrast, the vast majority of very strong Leavers believe that the economy will be better off. It is, then, little wonder that after more than two years of debate about what Brexit should and could mean, relatively few voters on either side have changed their minds about the relative merits of Remain or Leave. For even if the head is uncertain, the heart remains sure.
Yes I read that article Mefty.
If im honest I was a little disappointed, I don’t know what you thought, but Curtice is normally a bit more incisive, less fluffy, than that offering.
I don’t disagree with him mind, it was just a statement of the bleedin’ obvious though.
Now a consideration of what will be needed to create one united (ish, don’t expect miracles) country out of this, and what survey data might tell us about that - well that would have been interesting.
At the moment I see little that will do it.
PS - if loosing 25% of the support for Brexit (62>>48) is a tiny change, what’s a big one?
Been “trawling” other blogs and what i have established is
1. Its mainly ideology- the hate for EU Socialism? Unelected EU ministers, Sovereignty, etc.
2. Its not about money or quality of life
3. These people despise the EU
So not matter what the misery they want it.
The bottom line is this country is completely divided there is little or no grey area.
If you sit on the remain side of the fence its going to be a miserable country to live in.
Where their political choices are not over ridden by the choices of another country
What's wrong with people from another country?
Nationalism is bad, isn't it?
PS – if loosing 25% of the support for Brexit (62>>48) is a tiny change, what’s a big one?
When have I ever said it was, I have only ever questioned your suggestions on the Brexit thread that the mood of the country has changed since the Referendum, I don't think the oscillations since then warrant such a conclusion.
Nationalism is bad, isn’t it?
Not really, it has lots of good points.
Well most nationalist countries that went a long way right ended up in the ****
Same with the extreme left.
Okay so whats the benefits of nationalism, i get the snappy uniforms and clean architecture?
Not really, it has lots of good points.
Go on then.
Is it that it allows you to generalise about millions of people based on which side of an invisible like they were born?
The Czech Republic, the Slovak Republic are going pretty well and that was achieved bloodlessly. Many of the former Yugoslav republics are doing alright, although the means to the end was horrible. Nationalism is just a wish for self-determinism.
Go on then.
Free prescription and no tuition fees?
Nationalism is just a wish for self-determinism
But that necessarily means that you are excluding other people from that decision-making process just by virtue of their nationality. We've seen from this & other threads how much some Scottish people are enthralled by fantastic virtuousness of a bunch of people who co-incidentally just happen to be born in the same country as them.