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The long game has started...
I'm not sure this will change things significantly
Don't attribute to malice anything that could equally be attributed to stupidity and incompetence....
Good for them, anyone who stands for this current Tory incompetence and inbread lying is all good in my book.
Rest of world working closet together to achieve things, we seem intent on tearing apart to isolation.
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its just another bit of evidence of the lack of respect from Westminster and another little bit of the foundations of the union cut away.
Only when it's too late will they realise that rather than stand around bickering they need to be working together to find a solution.
madhouse
Only when it’s too late will they realise that rather than stand around bickering they need to be working together to find a solution.
Independent small countries work better than fractured big groups of countries.
That's why we need Brexit surely? 😀
Only when it’s too late will they realise that rather than stand around bickering they need to be working together to find a solution.
This only works if one of the sides isn't doing all it can to undermine the other.
eddiebaby
That’s why we need Brexit surely?
Got no problem with that. Any country that voted for Brexit should get it.
Any country that voted against it should stay in the EU. Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay.
Any country that voted against it should stay in the EU. Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay.
It was a UK vote. You might as well argue that Bristol should stay in the EU.
As someone who voted remain and lives in NI... I'm all for this.
Plus, since a tory mp told an snp MP to go kill himself yesterday during the debate... tories are playing right into the SNPs hands.
With this sort of thing happening and even British / Protestant North Irish people talking about being better off in an Unified Ireland within the EU, you have to ask how long we can keep this up?
If you think this is bad, wait until the Scots, North English, Welsh and Northern Irish feel when they work out how little of a **** Westminster gives about them - should have paid more attention to those little blue starred flags on the bottom of every new infrastructure project outside of the South East over the last 50 years or so.
Can we split England up into regions, intact sub regions too? If we are splitting the union is make m no sense to keep England as one unit.
Ha Ha ..
Manufactured controversy.
The SNP MPs were actually due to ask questions (and may have been granted a debate on the effect devolved assemblies) but walked out and denied themselves the chance to be involved on behalf of their constituents for the sake of a stunt.
I'm no brexiteer, but the SNP playing their "Stay as part of a bigger market (unless its the UK)" games can go hang.
A few weeks ago the SNP Growth Commission Report (after its massively delayed publication) basically accepted the cost of an independent Scotland being a loss of 13Bn a year, massive austerity, and 10 to 25 years outside the EU to put it right (under the best growth scenarios).
In other words brexit on steroids.
As they now agree with the long standing economic arguments of "project fear", expect more stunts, distraction and obfuscation.
SNP and Tories, 2 balls in the same nationalist nutsack.
The Brick
Can we split England up into regions, intact sub regions too? If we are splitting the union is make m no sense to keep England as one unit.
Why not? It's your country. It doesn't belong to the aristocracy or the non-dom billionaires.
ransos
It was a UK vote. You might as well argue that Bristol should stay in the EU.
Excuse my ignorance of English geography.
I thought Bristol was a city in England, not a country signatory to the Treaty of Union.
It may be worth your while reading it, especially as it is going to be in the news a bit more often in the next few weeks...
I thought Bristol was a city in England, not a country signatory to the Treaty of Union.
Scotland is not a nation state. The UK is. It's your own fault, too.
The SNP MPs were actually due to ask questions (and may have been granted a debate on the effect devolved assemblies) but walked out and denied themselves the chance to be involved on behalf of their constituents for the sake of a stunt.
I'm sure you are well aware of this but a motion to sit in private normally breaks up pm questions as it needs voted on immediately
Bercow wouldn’t allow it and said the vote would be after questions. That’s why Blackford refused to sit
The only thing Ian Blackford acheived was making sure his debate on devolution didn't get heard. He was told to wait until the end of PMQs, at which time he could have his say but chose not to. He made a headline, instead of making progress.
Yesterday was pish, but the SNP aren't helping. And both the SNP (in Holyrood) and Labour (in Holyrood and Westminster) have previously programmed in short debates to prevent proper discussion on major issues so it is a bit of pot calling kettle black. Perhaps it is the prerogative of goverment to avoid awkward questions?
it's just a flipping pantomime. Bercow is Widow T****ey.
So an MP got kicked out for repeatedly ignoring the Speaker of the House.
This is another nationalist straw clutching example isn't it?
"My dog farted, quick dissolve the union!"
So, if the SNP withdraw their MPs permanently, May doesn't need the DUP so can put the customs border in the Irish Sea. With that in place, trade between the NI and Eire will be more closely aligned than with RUK and a United Ireland could be closer to reality.
Why not? It’s your country. It doesn’t belong to the aristocracy or the non-dom billionaires.
Glad you have a wicked sense of humour.
I think you'll find the history books will record it quite a bit earlier than this. Perhaps the day the people of the UK made clear their different views on political unions - almost exactly 2 yrs ago.
ransos
Scotland is not a nation state. The UK is. It’s your own fault, too.
Again, read the Act of Union. I'll quote someone who can say it better than me...
"The tenets the 1707 Act of Union are as plain as the nose on your face – admittedly part of your anatomy difficult to see from where your eyes sit, unless viewed in a mirror.
The Act states unequivocally:
… “Two Nations”.
It does not state in any manner, way or form that two nations shall become one and lose identity, junk their name, act as one in all instances, indistinguishable one from another.
There is nothing in the Act about one nation taking second place, being the poorer nation and remaining so, or having no place in world affairs.
Nor does the Act contain caveats that one nation shall control all power over the other. It makes clear the two sovereign nations shall remain as before in everything but trade, banking, and the rights of peers. Gross inequality grew out of decisions resting in one parliament, one nation monopolising voting numbers. And in creeping integration.
I repeat: it does not legislate that the greater the population in number, the greater the say in domestic affairs, and all international political matters...."
TheBrick
Glad you have a wicked sense of humour.
🙂
But believe it or not you do have the power, but only if you unite and get behind a movement to enforce it.
From https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7/contents
That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom...
It does not state in any manner, way or form that two nations shall become one and lose identity, junk their name, act as one in all instances, indistinguishable one from another.
Cough,
Article 1 states "That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain.
Foreseeing the obvious it doesn't mention helicopters either.
Need to be quicker with your big hitting sbob
The only thing Ian Blackford acheived was making sure his debate on devolution didn’t get heard. He was told to wait until the end of PMQs, at which time he could have his say but chose not to. He made a headline, instead of making progress.
Yesterday was pish, but the SNP aren’t helping. And both the SNP (in Holyrood) and Labour (in Holyrood and Westminster) have previously programmed in short debates to prevent proper discussion on major issues so it is a bit of pot calling kettle black. Perhaps it is the prerogative of goverment to avoid awkward questions?
The full point of asking for a a motion to sit in private is to break up pm questions as it needs voted on immediately. Bercow didn't follow the rules as he should have therefor they walked out
tactical flounces get results!
look at yesterdays resignation vs the 5 non-resignations of eternally impotent david davis
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/the-man-who-brought-a-parliament-back-to-scotland-1.1109328
I doubt this is the start of their new campaign but if it is I would rather they used words not panto, this isn't america
So, is England still a country…?
Need to be quicker with your big hitting sbob
I was busy applying aloe to my mangina, sensei.
I think you folks are confusing Kingdoms with nations.
Take a look at how the UK describes itself in its UN membership. I don't have the reference to hand, but I think you'll find it describes itself as 2 countries or nations, a principality and a province (or something very similar, but not as a unitary state).
Also the UK came about as a treaty between 2 sovereign countries, and it is the Treaty that counts. The Acts of Union are the housekeeping to implement it, just as there were various acts to implement the membership of the EU.
Treaties are capable of being dissolved.
Many Scots want that approach because the Treaty has been breached many times and the latest episodes are the last straw. If it wants to go that way presumably the Scottish govt will either run an internal referendum, or an election on those grounds.
We do not need England's permission to dissolve the Treaty (as in England, the other party to it).
Also the UK came about as a treaty between 2 sovereign countries
What about Wales, Ireland and now NI?
cynic-al
What about Wales, Ireland and now NI?
They were not signatories to the Treaty of Union, but a later incorporation by Westminster.
Again, read the Act of Union. I’ll quote someone who can say it better than me…
Nation, not nation state. Scotland cannot negotiate separate international terms because, like England, it is only one part of a larger state.
We do not need England’s permission to dissolve the Treaty (as in England, the other party to it).
Indeed, which is why the independence referendum was only open to Scotland. A majority voted to retain the union.
Back of the class for you.
I think you folks are confusing Kingdoms with nations.
My helicopter quote was meant to pre-empt this descent into an argument about semantics.
A kingdom is a nation ruled by a monarch, that's all.
ransos
...Back of the class for you.
Nah, we're finished with being told what to do by the country next door.
...Indeed, which is why the independence referendum was only open to Scotland. A majority voted to retain the union...
Indeed, and if the promises made then had been kept there would not be this pressure to get out of this toxic relationship.
And next time, the dead will not be voting...
Nah, we’re finished with being told what to do by the country next door.
What Norway?
Nah, we’re finished with being told what to do by the country next door.
You're told what to do by the UK, just like England, because of the treaty you signed. You had the opportunity to dissolve that treaty, and chose not to.
If you're looking for someone to blame, look closer to home.
Good luck with that
The union of Scotland occured through the middle ages. At the time Gaels and Scots were prevalent in the West. Norse controlling the North, Picts holding sway in the NE, with Britons and Angles through what are today's central belt and Southern uplands. Treaties, unions and feud would eventually lead to Robert the Bruce leading forces to victory in 1314. The Declaration of Arbroath less than 400 years before the Treaty of Union in 1320 effectively cemented the independence of the Scottish nation. The Scotland we know today came into being in the second half of the 15th century just over 200 years before the the Treaty of Union, during a period when Norway pawned away control of oil rich Orkney and Shetland to Scotland to raise funds for a marriage dowry.
ransos
You’re told what to do by the UK, just like England, because of the treaty you signed. You had the opportunity to dissolve that treaty, and chose not to....
And that would be lovely if it was true. However, Westminster is dominated by English MPs, and thus what England wants is what the rest of us get.
It isn't working for Scotland.
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As for the last Independence Referendum, if the promises made had been kept, we probably wouldn't have such a growing demand for independence.
Surely you can see the advantages of an England unfettered by all those Scottish subsidy junkies?
And that would be lovely if it was true. However, Westminster is dominated by English MPs, and thus what England wants is what the rest of us get.
It may suit your purposes to blame England, but an alternative course of action was within your gift. You are authors of your own misfortune.
As for the last Independence Referendum, if the promises made had been kept, we probably wouldn’t have such a growing demand for independence.
Demand for independence appears to be shrinking, not growing. I'm sure you'll find a way of blaming that on England.
That's something I've never understood about the English people who ridicule Scottish independence. Surely you'd be better out without a nation of scroungers dragging you down.
Seriously, why do you want us to stay? Or do you not and you just enjoy laughing at how ****ed we're going to be after independence?
Westminster is dominated by English MPs
We had a Scottish Prime Minister, just how Scottish does our democracy need to be?
I repeat: it does not legislate that the greater the population in number, the greater the say in domestic affairs, and all international political matters
Ah, I see I have asked the wrong question... 😉
Seriously. What evidence do you have that support for Independence has grown since the referendum?
That’s something I’ve never understood about the English people who ridicule Scottish independence. Surely you’d be better out without a nation of scroungers dragging you down.
Seriously, why do you want us to stay? Or do you not and you just enjoy laughing at how **** we’re going to be after independence?
I wouldn't ridicule the idea of independence however I do believe (like Brexit) that it will be bad for both parties and (also like Brexit) worse for the smaller party.
“Seriously. What evidence do you have that support for Independence has grown since the referendum?”
It’s not really moved with any meaning for some time now.
That’s something I’ve never understood about the English people who ridicule Scottish independence. Surely you’d be better out without a nation of scroungers dragging you down.
Seriously, why do you want us to stay? Or do you not and you just enjoy laughing at how **** we’re going to be after independence?
Alternatively, take the chip off your shoulder. I think that Scotland should act in accordance with the wishes of its population. It doesn't especially bother me if it's independent or not.
Oh dear, I've fallen into a political debate.
Cheese it!
#notaflounce
The SNP are trying a power grab and the flouncing out of the commons is just one way they are trying to have their cake. The powers retained by the UK Government are expressly defined in the devolution settlement, everything else is assumed to be devolved. Since the settlement more parts have been devolved, including tax raising powers.
However the settlement excluded powers which have been taken over by the EU. After all we would never be so stupid to leave the EU. These powers may include powers which the UK Government would not have devolved to Scotland in the devolution settlement. As such the UK Government wants to work out which ones it will retain.
The SNP want to have all the powers that are currently with the EU - so we have a grab for them from the SNP and a claim that they are being marginalised because the UK Government is treating them like a whining child. Scotland also claims that the UK Government should treat them as an equal, which is never going to happen. Scotland is part of the UK and as such the UK Parliament (which includes representatives from Scotland) as advice. This will probably end up in the Supreme Court, which sits above the English/Welsh and Scottish legal systems.
In the meantime I expect more flouncing by the SNP in both Holyrood and Westminster. If the SNP were actually any good at running a country I may listen to them, but their track record is no better and sometimes worse than nay bunch at Westminster
And don't forget your booties, 'cause it's cooooold outside!
Actually, after Brexit, 25% of the population changed their mind. Many independence voters wanted out of the EU and out of the union. Brexit is close enough so they now support the Union. The other half decided they wanted to stay in the EU. 1 in 4 changed their mind but they cancelled each other out.
I do think if the SNP would just drop full EU membership and support EEA membership instead then that could win over many current No voters. Especially if it was emphasised that we would have many of the benefits of EU memberships but still able to retain control of agriculture and fishing.
My fellow Englishmen, talking as if Scotland is annexed, or just a region of England, are fuelling the end of the Union (something I don't want to see happen). English nationalism is getting dirtier, more xenophobic, and drunk on its own recent "democratic" successes… attitudes towards Ireland, Scotland, France, Germany, Poland etc is turning everyone against us. We're seen as enjoying making things difficult for everyone else, and treating any downsides for ourselves as a price worth paying for inflicting damage on others. You'd avoid a person with character traits like that, wouldn't you? You definitely wouldn't want to be married to them.
My fellow Englishmen, talking as if Scotland is annexed, or just a region of England, are fuelling the end of the Union (something I don’t want).
That seems to be the line peddled by the Scots Nats here.
The powers retained by the UK Government are expressly defined in the devolution settlement, everything else is assumed to be devolved
Sadmadallan
this is simply not correct. the power grab is actually devolved areas that were partly under EU rules being grabbed back to Westminster instead of being devolved as they should be under the Scotland act.
imnotverygood
Seriously. What evidence do you have that support for Independence has grown since the referendum?
Apparently the SNP picked up another 1,000 new members in the afternoon since the walkout.
Maybe the fact the the SNP is the 3rd largest political party in the United Kingdom, and that with a population base restricted to about 10% of the total.
Imagine if you had that rate of participation in the other parties...
Bear in mind the SNP is just a part of the independence movement and is far from active enough for most people supporting independence.
Bear in mind the SNP is just a part of the independence movement and is far from active enough for most people supporting independence.
The movement in total would lose a referendum, and you know it.
ransos
The movement in total would lose a referendum, and you know it.
Aye, right....
Oooh,whataboutery
Aye, right….
"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
The polls do still show a majority against independence. However it is a better starting position than when the last referendum was called.
It's also worth bearing in mind that some 74% of Scots voted for devolution. The very thing which is undermined by the EU withdrawal bill.
Just an update:
The number of new members for the SNP since this afternoon's walk out is 3,000.
There's a lot of pissed off people out there.
If you want to hear why people are pissed off laid out step by step, this lady does it pretty well
Scottish independence might suit the Conservatives quite nicely - a guaranteed majority in the rUK.
And right now, they're very determinedly putting the party before the nation.
The union of Scotland occured through the middle ages. At the time Gaels and Scots were prevalent in the West. Norse controlling the North, Picts holding sway in the NE, with Britons and Angles through what are today’s central belt and Southern uplands. Treaties, unions and feud would eventually lead to Robert the Bruce leading forces to victory in 1314. The Declaration of Arbroath less than 400 years before the Treaty of Union in 1320 effectively cemented the independence of the Scottish nation. The Scotland we know today came into being in the second half of the 15th century just over 200 years before the the Treaty of Union, during a period when Norway pawned away control of oil rich Orkney and Shetland to Scotland to raise funds for a marriage dowry.
So nation states are transitory in nature is the point there?
The number of new members for the SNP since this afternoon’s walk out is 3,000.
Labour is the largest party in western Europe.
I wouldn’t ridicule the idea of independence however I do believe (like Brexit) that it will be bad for both parties and (also like Brexit) worse for the smaller party.
Thanks for articulating my thoughts!
The movement in total would lose a referendum, and you know it.
Thats what people were telling farage...
Thanks for articulating my thoughts!
My pleasure sir!
The movement in total would lose a referendum, and you know it.
Thats what people were telling farage…
Indeed. This is why Nicola has already called a second referendum seeing as she is so confident of winning it
“The polls do still show a majority against independence. However it is a better starting position than when the last referendum was called.”
This is true. But the campaign has never really stopped. If we’ve not achieved a majority by now is it really likely in the near future? There needs to be something far more persuasive than anything I’ve seen recently. Politicians scoring political points isn’t enough IMO with many so heavily entrenched. I think we’re more likely to see a decisive shift once people start finding there wallets empty. Not the most ideal of motivations.
I don’t take Epics comments about new members as evidence of a shift in the proportions support. Overall it’s a tiny portion of the electorate that may well (likely?) already have voted yes.
We went through similar in the run up to 2014 as well with often repeated claims of hordes of converts winning the vote.
piemonster
...We went through similar in the run up to 2014 as well with often repeated claims of hordes of converts winning the vote.
Westminster certainly thought it was going to go across the line based on their polling, and that's why we had all those amazing promises in the last few weeks. If they had kept them we wouldn't be in this position right now.
Also last time most of the EU citizens resident in Scotland believed the Unionist lie that we wouldn't be in the EU. Their vote was sufficient to swing it against us. Can't see that happening again.
The old folk were terrified by the Unionist lie that they would lose their pensions, and a high % of them voted to stay. Death has culled quite a few of them and will take even more before another referendum/election, and I doubt that many would believe that lie now.
Then there is the considerable English population in Scotland. Naturally many of them voted to stay in the UK, however it looks like that is changing.
Perhaps we should be the type of nationalists that the media like to portray us as, and only allow native born Scots to vote....
Ah. So you lost because people were too old and insufficiently Scottish.