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So it's doom and gloom as another big company goes belly up, not moving with the times, the Internet etc etc.
However when I go into derby it always seems very busy, are these people there because they have nothing better to do?
One thing that has put me off "going in to town" was the bloody parking fees. I couldn't believe how much it cost for a quick nip in to take two Christmas presents back, is this also killing the high street?
Its not doom and gloom - we all love the internet, its convenience, cheap prices etc.
The high street just has not kept up, the council is even further behind with parking fees, rates, planning laws etc.
Town centers are often full of people, none seem to contribute to the economy though 😉
I distinctly remember a 'shopping as a hobby' rant on here some years ago that had me emptying coffee out of my keyboard. I am reminded of it whenever I have to venture near to town on a Saturday (not often).
But then, I work in Birmingham City Centre, so I can pop to the shops at lunchtime throughout the week if I need/want. Usually it's a tour of the bike shops to remind myself how ridiculously expensive cycle gear is, especially when bought from a shop.
I've been wondering how long Waterstones will be around for, the number of Kindles on the train these days far far outweigh the number of paper books.
The only thing that is more convenient to shop for these days is clothing, as the need to try it on cannot easily be met by on-line retailers. So the high street turns into clothes shops and "american baby-drink selling chains" (gotta love Victoria Coren!)
Town centers are often full of people, none seem to contribute to the economy though
+1
think about the shop lifters..
What they gonna do with no high street?
Another industry ruined by the tories. 🙂
Rent and rates are killing the high street - the costs are incredible even for an OK location in a small market town. How new retailers get started is beyond me.
think about the shop lifters..
What they gonna do with no high street?
...this is what PayPal Gift was invented for - scrotes don't even need to leave the house now!
Have town centres been held back by punitive business rates and customer parking? Its no wonder customers and businesses do business via the internet to a warehouse of the M1 if councils have priced us out of town.
Council rates are tiny compared with the shop floor rent.
From speaking to people affected it is very much business rates that cripple small independent retailers.
A mate was looking at opening a very small cafe in Oxford centre. Not a prime spec, but an ok location. The rents worked out, over 365 days, at over £350 per day! So.. business rates on top of that, heating, staff costs. No wonder the high streets ****ed!!!
Maybe for big stores (I have no experience of that) but for small high-street shops it is very common these days for tentants to negotiate massive discounts on the rent because there are very few takers (dependant on area obviously) and clearly the landlord doesn't want to be stuck with an empty building. However there is no possibility for negotiation on the rates.Council rates are tiny compared with the shop floor rent.
There needs to be a further movement towards converting a lot of High St. commercial property into residential.
There's not the demand there once was so it needs to change if they want to continue to have a dynamic, pleasant environment.
Someone my age (mid 40's) tweeted earlier that the High Street is the steam trains for our generation. I did wonder if we'll end up with groups of middle aged men running shops on a voluntary, not for profit, basis just so they can go and have a rummage amongst rare vinyl and clack cd cases together as they riffle through the stands.
My 2p;
We'll look back with nostalgia at what used to be, what we grew up with, but we'll embrace the new paradigm with gusto.
Our children will just grow up assuming it was always like this and, in 40 years time, when everyone has a 3d printer at home that produces 90% of what they need become all nostalgic for the delivery van bearing the fruits of their online shopping activity.
When we were very young, we were burgled whilst on holiday. All they took was clothes, as people didn't have all the modern gadgets and electrical goods. The whole high street / shopping hobby thing has been a very recent trend, so it's not like the high street has been like this for ever. Go back to the 70s and disposable incomes were tiny compared to now.
Enterprise always moves faster than government / councils.
Been a store owner for close on 25 years and survived through a couple of resessions..
Couple of facts..
The are some fantastic deals available on high street locations at present if you are willing to negotiate hard.
Business rates are not killing the smallest traders as for the past few years there has been a thing called 'Small business rate relief' Any premises with a rateable value of less that £12k qualify. I've paid zero rates for the past few years.
The main cause of high street destruction can be put straight at the local authorities hatred of the car.
Over zealous traffic wardens. Expensive Local authority parking. Private land clampers. THIS is what has killed the town centre.
The facts speak for themselves.. During the small period between the police stopping parking control and the local authority taking it over trade boomed for high streets. Personally our trade literally quadrupled. It was chaotic yes, but the town was buzzing with a vibrance I've never seen before. Fast forward a couple of years after the local council introduced the parking stasi.. the place is an absolute ghost town.. the worst I've seen in 25 years. Mid week the wardens outnumber the shoppers. Yet the council refuse to accept the facts.
Nothing wrong with the High Street - John Lewis, Apple, Hollister, others, seem to be doing alright there.
You just have to get it right.
For the last year or so, walking into HMV felt like walking into a dirty teenager's bedroom.
They should've focused on selling music, and worked out what a music shop should feel like. Music lovers prefer buying albums in a shop to iTunes etc, that's a fact. They shouldn't have died, but they didn't have the insight or guts to re-envision themselves. So now we have more spare units for overpriced coffee outlets (until someone else with funding and vision gives us an alternative high street - which I'm looking forward to seeing).
For the last year or so, walking into HMV felt like walking into a dirty teenager's bedroom.They should've focused on selling music, and worked out what a music shop should feel like.
Yup, look how cool it used to look!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/gallery/2013/jan/15/hmv-oxford-street-store-gallery
I've been wondering how long Waterstones will be around for, the number of Kindles on the train these days far far outweigh the number of paper books.
Waterstones now sell Kindles and have free WiFi so Kindle owners can download new titles for Amazon. Apparently, Turkeys are going to open Christmas pop-up shops next November.
The main cause of high street destruction can be put straight at the local authorities hatred of the car.
I thought all the studies showed the opposite? What brings in customers to town centres is pedestrianisation and making them more accessible on foot/bike/bus?
Fast forward a couple of years after the local council introduced the parking stasi.. the place is an absolute ghost town
drives (literally) people to out-of-town megacentres. My local town has free parking on a Monday and the town is [i]packed[/i], why on earth they havent learned and made it free all week long is a mystery.
Yup, look how cool it used to look!
How cool is that? I'd go out of my way to buy music there.
I thought all the studies showed the opposite? What brings in customers to town centres is pedestrianisation and making them more accessible on foot/bike/bus?
Local authority funded studies maybe?
The facts in the real world are very different. Take my town for example.. It's a market town that for centuries has pulled in the shoppers from all the villages around. People here need to drive, yet it's been made so restrictive in town that they now drive to the nearest out of town shopping centre as to park in town is expensive and very risky should you inadvertently spend a little too long in a shop.
drives (literally) people to out-of-town megacentres. My local town has free parking on a Monday and the town is packed, why on earth they havent learned and made it free all week long is a mystery.
Because somebody, somehwere has to pay for the upkeep of those car parks (and building new ones if required).Out of town megacentres can afford to have free parking because the land is cheap and they make huge profits, town centres don't have either of these luxuries.
Introducing car parking charges to out of town megacentres should be a priority*, not encouraging more cars and congestion into town centres that don't have the infrastructure to cope.
*Not that this will ever happen, Tesco et al have more power over Local Authorities than they do over National Govt. and that's an awful lot!
Hopefully aunts and uncles the world over, will now realise something the rest of us have known for some time:
Gift vouchers make a crap present.
Introducing car parking charges to out of town megacentres should be a priority*, not encouraging more cars and congestion into town centres that don't have the infrastructure to cope.
Oh for a little congestion.. or even a couple of extra cars... please.
Oh for a little congestion.. or even a couple of extra cars... please
Time to firebomb your nearest megacentre then!*
Alternatively, time to start moving the advantages away from the massive corporations and back to the smaller scale stuff. Trouble is, this would require a big change in society! Unfortunetly, the obvious stuff like free town centre parking effects short term advantages for longer term disadvatages. You can't win.
* Not a serious suggestion
Out of town megacentres can afford to have free parking because the land is cheap and they make huge profits, town centres don't have either of these luxuries.
But if no one can make money in town centres the land has little value, commercial property only has value if it can be used to make a profit.
But if no one can make money in town centres the land has little value, commercial property only has value if it can be used to make a profit.
True. I suppose the logical conclusion of that is then: let the market decide = let the highstreets die (from a commercial/retail perspective) and let megacentres and the Internet take up the slack.
Unfortunately local politics, transport and communication links, commercial power and similar un-quanbtifiables distort the market quite dramatically. There's also the human inertia element, people like High Streets, but also like the convenince of megcentres and how these two choices balance out from person to person and place to place is nigh on impossible to predict...
...basically it's all very complicated, but probably boils down to High Streets have to offer something that megacentres can't and vice versa. If they engage in out right competition then one will die, likely to be the HIgh Street...
I blame the red-tops
The town of Bury took the decision about 15 years ago to clean up and roof over the disgusting 70s shopping streets, effectively turning the town centre into a huge mall. They supported the "famous" market and provided a decent car park. For years the town centre was hopping; always busy and clean, warm and dry and a pleasant place to go.
Then they built a new area about 200 yards away at the other end of the town and allowed Marks & Spencer to relocate to a new building there. The result? Shops are closing in Bury town centre because M&S has taken away all the footfall.
Muppets.
Because somebody, somehwere has to pay for the upkeep of those car parks (and building new ones if required).
If the town centres are busy, the money can be taken from the business rates. If people drive elsewhere, hey presto, empty shops, charity shops and no business rates.
Then they built a new area about 200 yards away at the other end of the town and allowed Marks & Spencer to relocate to a new building there. The result? Shops are closing in Bury town centre because M&S has taken away all the footfall.
Now I knew Bury was shit, but that M&S can drive its fortunes is a new low
If the town centres are busy, the money can be taken from the business rates. If people drive elsewhere, hey presto, empty shops, charity shops and no business rates.
Exactly.. There is no level playing field at the moment. There has to be either free parking in town centres or similar charges/restrictions at out of town centres.
At present we have local authorities which appear to be actively cleansing the town centres of trade with their deluded transport policies.
Surely the demise of bigger shops on the high street is just a continuation of a process which has been on going for years? The larger shops having put almost all the smaller shops out of business many years ago, the even bigger shops are now putting them out of business - it's not the demise of the high street, it's capitalism working exactly how it should.
it's capitalism working exactly how it should.
Nail. Head.
The question of whether it's good or not is still open though.
I like my towns transport policy, encourages cycling and use of buses. I can buy most stuff online, go into town for resteraunts, shows etc.
The only thing that is more convenient to shop for these days is clothing, as the need to try it on cannot easily be met by on-line retailers.
Although the increasing availability of convenient, postage-paid returns is challenging that.
Go back to the 70s and [s]disposable incomes[/s] [b]debt[/b] was tiny compared to now.
fixed
What will happen to all the properties on the high street though?? At this rate over half of the average high street will be vacant in 10 years. Our town has maybe 20% of shops empty presently. We have saturated our need for charity shops/tattooists and pound shops. Will the whole cycle restart its self when it all goes bust and rates plummet, thus enticing the boutique and smaller bushiness back in or will it be too late as the spaces get sold to developers who turn them into apartments?
What will happen to all the properties on the high street though
Use it to address the homeless problem
this is all good and well but it will mean a no return scenario for high street environments.
A lot of commercial property is on the balance sheets of fund managers. They use growth/value models that value that property long term. It will take a change in that model, financial meltdown (again) or better regulation for things to change.
Meanwhile, in the real world, Councils are run by idiots, consumers continue to look for cheap products and want to drive their car door to door and not pay to park.
This adds up to the end of the highstreet, ghost towns till Concils wake up, more out of town mega stores and a continued improvement / increase in online buying.
Just look at our online buying - CRC/Wiggle/Superstar - perfect desktop/laptop/palm top shopping with free returns. Who needs a shop now.
*fiddles with new set of wheels ordered online, decides they are nice, mmmm, no need to send them back*
A good high street will be fine.
I'm sure going back 100 years there were corseteers and hatters on every high st. They went, but it wasn't the demise of the high street, just the demise of that particular item.
Quite obvious that far fewer physical CDs will be sold from now on, and they are very easy to buy online any as you can listen beforehand on the radio or online.
As above - clothes, shoes, food, socialising - that's what the high street will be more of. And to be honest, 90% of it has been those things for years anyway.
There was a move a few years back to classify all space used by retailers as rateable, in other words to enable taxing the car-park spaces where they were owned by property companies. This would have balanced the cost advantages that out of town centres had, in favour of the high street.
The proposal was lobbied against and died.
The death of the high street is also a function of the increased efficiency of retail space following the introduction of Sunday shopping, if people can shop on more days, they need less space to do so.
Bring back the day of rest!
I personally think its a sad day when you can no longer walk into a shop, flick through records or CDs and walk out of there with a load of random gems. I used to dj, and nothing matched the tune hunt that happened every week, as I listened to hundreds of vinyl tracks on the shop turntables. Going from shop to shop in pursuit of the next big tune. Hmv in Leeds used to have a cracking atmosphere and was one of the shops on the tune hunt route in the city. All have now shut as they have succumbed to the digital age. I'm not some old fart whos down on the internet, but I think its a sad day when every purchase or interaction we make is faceless. Plus Hmv is the only shop I want to go in when the missus drags me round the shops! Where am I going to escape to now? Bloody Apple store!?!
Moses - Member
Bring back the day of rest!
Very appropriate!
I'm sure going back 100 years there were corseteers and hatters on every high st.
Not to forget Haberdasheries and Tinkers....
I don't think shutting the highstreet would fix the highstreet, wouldn't it just drive us all online on a sunday, but i guess would put the postal service in good business every tuesday/wednesday.
Saying that would be great not to open on a sunday means i can go biking every weekend!
There needs to be a further movement towards converting a lot of High St. commercial property into residential.
Or something other than conventional retail. A town near me is converting a lot of its High St into combined studio/retail spaces for crafts businesses. I think a lot of towns are going to have to think quickly about what they can do with their high st. With a lot a small towns have grown around the fringes because the town centre was too expensive to break into, all the newest housing and retail stock is around the perimeter and now the centre itself is empty of either useful housing or relevant commercial space - but as a legacy... still too expensive for anyone new to get a foot hold in.
Big shopping centres don't always work!
St David's 2 in Cardiff has a lot of tenants in there that are on free rent (some as much as 2 years!). If you go there regularly, you will notice that certain shops, some of them quite major, will move every 6 months or so to take advantage of this. Sometimes just a unit or two down!!
The other problem it has caused is the near-abandonment of the Capitol Centre the other end of town by shoppers due to the big car parks (John Lewis, St Davids 2) being far away from it, despite the fact that all the P&R buses drop everyone off right next to it.
If HMV go, there will be a huge empty building right in the middle of Queen Street, god knows who will move in there (Tesco probably*).
Paradoxically, the arcades full of independent shops are heaving!! Spillers springs immediately to mind!!
* seriously, they hoover up everything, just opened in the old Zavvi/Virgin Megastore!!
The Capitol Centre in a Cardiff is a really good example - it was the smartest bit of Cardiff for shopping but is now pretty much deserted. Newport's even worse, almost everything's shut there now.
Dunno if it's rents or car parking though. Or what the answer is.
High St is changing. Big retail has gone to the Internet. High St going back to the small, individual, specialist retailers.
The Capitol Centre in a Cardiff is a really good example - it was the smartest bit of Cardiff for shopping but is now pretty much deserted.
Well not really a good example. It was the smartest bit until they built a much bigger smarter flashier bit. Cardiff has gained a lot more shopping and eating places, which are always busy and seem to be doing well.
It's swings and roundabouts. The far end of St Mary's St used to be quite derilict, as did the end of the Hayes, at the time Capitol was the best address. Now it's just moved around. The focus has just shifted.
High St is changing. Big retail has gone to the Internet. High St going back to the small, individual, specialist retailers.
This. Jessops and HMV gone from my local high street but we still have independent camera and music shops. I think / hope smaller individual outlets meeting actual customer needs and being able to adapt quickly will be the way forward.
Yep, Spillers is still in Cardiff and there are three indie camera shops which have been there as long as I have.
The high street could open when I'm not at work. And all of Sunday too. I could go to the shops then. Like the supermarkets twigged years ago.
The high street could open when I'm not at work. And all of Sunday too. I could go to the shops then. Like the supermarkets twigged years ago.
indeed - open at 10, close at 6.30 and lo, customers would not be at work at the only time the high street is open.
Seriously, of the specialist shops i would browse and buy in : 1 bike shop, 2 guitar shops, 1 Apple shop, 1 camera shop, ALL are closed on Sunday. And ALL closed by 5pm in the week. It's annoying, but it saves me lots of cash.
Most city high streets just evolve over time, giving what the customer of the day wants.
When I was little North Street which is on the edge of Leeds town centre had 8 Antique shops. By the late 80s it had one, and the rest of the shops empty.
Most people no longer bought antiques.
Today (streetview shows) one empty unit, and a diverse range of other uses. Once again it's thriving.
HMV, Jessops are maybe different in as much we still want their products.
Though now there are easier and cheaper ways to buy them.
The death of the high street is partly driven by trends driven by commercial property developers and short sighted planning decisions by local councils.
How many small towns were 'improved' by pedestrian schemes that are now covered in CCTV as councils realise that the same areas at night are full of spewing and / or fighting as the pubs chuck out. Making town centres less car friendly while allowing deregulated bus operators to abandon less profitable routes rules out the concept of 'popping to the shops'
Vanity projects like Bluewater and Westfield seem great at their time but during a recession are a nail in the coffin for neighbouring town centres.
Landlords continued insistence on quarterly rent in advance prevents many independents from starting up. Why take the overhead when it can be done more cheaply and potentially tax free online.
Over zealous traffic wardens. Expensive Local authority parking. Private land clampers. THIS is what has killed the town centre.
It's certainly having an effect on Chippenham, despite all the retailers begging the council to reduce the car parking costs, and re-introduce a free first hour, the council refuses, saying the car parking fees have had no effect on footfall, and despite having not made any extra money from the car parks after they put the fees up. Oddly enough, though, Trowbridge, the County Town, where the council is based, has free first hour parking, and lower hourly fees.
Why would that be, I wonder...
Chester where i work, is closing down quite fast, the forum shoping centre and market is nearly empty of shops and stalls, the old grosvenor precinct is going the same way,the so called historic rows are so run down and dirty they look like something out of a dickens novel, the councl in its wisdom has bought an old cinema to convert to a theatre arts centre, because thet havent got one, despite closing down the theatre they did have,called the gateway.Frodsham street is full of charity shops as is watergate streeet.and newgate street is going to be redevloped into a 4 seperate large restraunts, taking their use from retail to selling meals.
Where as liverpool has Liverpool one a huge under cover shopping centre, ample parking, a bus station attached, 2 railway stations nearby, and a ferry crossing with free parking on the wirral side.Along with shops people actually want to send money at, limited charity shops, an evans cycle shop,plenty of small cafes and outside seating.Liverpool is kept clean and tidy,traffic wardens are helpful as are the residents, and there are some fantastic free museumns and great arcitecture.
Reasons I don't ever shop in town>>>>
1) price of parking. Cars cost enough as they are, I don't ever pay for parking, if paying is the ONLY choice, then bugger it, I won't go to that Town/City/Area, tough luck for them and their shops.
2) well if I won't drive to town because of parking I will take bike, except, very few places to lock up, and high risk of theft. so no thanks their either.
3) Internet, yes its cheaper, but if high street offered amazing service & experience but I had to pay for the pleasure, then yeah, [b]I'd pay the difference[/b] and reap the amazing customer service and shopping experience, [b]except, erm no,[/b] we don't have a nice shopping experience in 99% of high street shops, so yeah, bugger that.
4) other people. Have you met other people? they are arseholes.
End of BrickRant.
just a badly run company, that has wasted money on a clothing line and a non working IT system and decided in 2003 that digital downloads was going nowhere and an online presence was a waste of time.
other people. Have you met other people? they are arseholes.
I think this is the root of your problem, and has nothing to do with the high street itself 🙂
You could argue the high street just got to big and this is a natural correction weeding out the poorer companies
[i]The high street could open when I'm not at work. And all of Sunday too. I could go to the shops then. Like the supermarkets twigged years ago.[/i]
+1
Very common in other countries are town/city centre stores opening through to 9 and 10pm.
Parking (and associated fines) though are seen as a 'revenue' by the councils, and one that they've been racheting up over the years.
Rents are the main reason the high street shops are struggling. One reason they are so high is that a lot of commercial property is owned by investment funds. These are owned by pension funds. If they lower the rent, the fund value decreases so they refuse to lower the rent. If capitalism worked, supply and demand would cause rents to fall to a level that made the business able to compete with cheap warehouse based Internet postal operations. Couple that with 'offshore' none tax paying companies and it is impossible to compete.
I would hate to see the high street die off, but the modern high street offers little I want. The same shops in every town, I hate shopping in these places.
I would welcome a high street with small independant shops, butchers, grocers and so on. Will it ever happen? I hope so.
The high street could open when I'm not at work. And all of Sunday too. I could go to the shops then. Like the supermarkets twigged years ago.
Another +1
Never appreciated a shop that's only open when I'm at work.
Nearby small town tried to take advantage of free parking after 6pm by late opening of their high street. Was a resounding success. So what did the council do? Extend the need for a ticket from 6pm to 8/9pm. End result.. it's dead again.
Why dont short sighted councils realise that expensive car parks = empty shops = little revenue.
Free parking = more shops = more business rate revenue.
Don't forget a lot of the money consumers have been spending on retail for the last 15 years was debt.
We're now paying off that debt and saving.
There was massive overcapacity in retail, businesses which survived because there was too much money flying around looking for some stuff to buy...
Now we're thinking a bit more about what we spend our money on, we're sticking with the businesses which give us what we want, the businesses which were never that good anyway, are going to the wall
It's a necessary correction... why we got so hooked on shopping as the best idea we could have for spending our spare time is beyond me...
One small town that appears to be doing well is Beeston in Nottingham, it certainly seems busy and has a mix of big chains and independents, despite on the face of it being a bit of a shit hole. This is also despite a huge tesco on the doorstep.
So what has the shit hole next to tesco got going for it? Free parking.