[Closed] The Culture SF novels, a little advice please❓

Consider Phlebas is chronologically first, everything is referenced off the Idiran War so it's probably worth doing but it's written a bit differently (his first) so might be worth reserving until later. It's barely a footnote for the rest and everything you need to know is explained later (the prolific number of ex military minds/ships and their class names being one)

Depends what you like really, if you enjoy something light hearted then Excession was great (the discussions between minds being the best part), if you want something darker then Use of Weapons. Both will serve as a useful intro.

I started with The Player of Games, some folk hate it but after a few aborted attempts I still enjoy it and have a bit more sympathy for the protagonist than most. Hydrogen Sonata is a rerun of Excession in places (no bad thing) whilst Inversions was just weird, if you're familiar with his conventional work think Song of Stone meets Walking on Glass. It was hard going and I've never reread it. His non culture stuff is also worth reading, the Algebraist was particularly good.

No advice other than they're brilliant and just read them in the order they're written. I have no idea what that was but i'm sure it's easily available.

Such a loss, I so wish there could be more. By far my favourite author.

I started with player of games and was hooked.

Excession also good.

Short stories were grand after those two.

I think ill star with Consider Phlebas then. Probably. Thanks guys!

Got to finish another sequence I'm reading at the moment, then its Culture time if half half as good as The Nights Dawn trilogy I read ages back I'll be very happy.

I don't believe it matters all that much, generally in order of publication if that's not too obvious an answer. And I agree with squirrelking, his non-Culture SF is also very good.

I’ve read them all quite a few times, and always in order starting with ‘Consider Phlebas’, with the exception of ‘Player Of Games” - tried to read it several times, but couldn’t get past the thoroughly unlikable protagonist.

I completely agree with what’s been said above - such a loss as a writer, he created a wide and diverse conceptual universe, his ship-minds were/are unlike anything else around.

If you rated Nights Dawn then definitely start on Phlebas, it's one of the most classically space opera-ey and has the big setpiece thing too. Banks was a pretty big influence on Hamilton

I love them all but for different reasons, I think Player Of Games is probably my favourite.

That's for all the info guys!

squirrelking
Free Member
Consider Phlebas is chronologically first,

I always keep meaning to go back to this, read half of it, it was great. One of those books that properly plays like a film in your head.

Recently read Use Of Weapons on holiday, don't know how I'd missed it before - I thought I'd read all his Culture novels - but it is thoroughly, gruesomely excellent from start to finish. It's made me want to read all of them again so I started Consider Phlebas yesterday. Again, utterly magnificent sci-fi writing.

In terms of order of reading I don't ever seem to recall a noticeable chronology between the books, they're all set in their own time and place within the greater Culture 'universe' but as squirrelking said above, Consider Phlebas is probably best to read first as you then have a reference back to the Idiran war.

Use of Weapons is my favourite.

As others have said Consider Phlebas is a bit different to the others but apart from that I don't think it really matters.

If you fancy a break, you could have a look at The Star Fraction and The Stone Canal by Ken MacLeod. His earlier books were very Iain M. Banks in style.

I reread all of his Sci-fi in (mostly) order of publication during lockdown.

Consider Phlebas makes sense as a starter, but I also enjoyed breaking up the Culture stuff with the non-culture.

My two favourites are actually non-culture...Feersum Enjin and The Algebreist.

Of the culture books Player of Games (first one I read originally) and Use of Weapons are currently my faves, but it changes.

Every so often I get a bit sad when I realise I won't get to read a new book by him ever again 😟

It doesn't really matter I think, other than (well my edition anyway) Consider Phlebas has a Iridian War chronology in the back. But then it's only really important for that novel anyway, the others don't even reference it much, and each stands alone with very few repeating characters.

I think Use of Weapons is where I started, and then the short story collection.

Read them in order of publication.
CP is a great introduction to The Culture and shows things in a fairly simple light.
Each book then adds depth and richness, not only to The Culture, but to the galaxy as a whole.
You start to realise how massive everything is and how small the Culture is as you progress through the bookS.
I think some of the themes of the later books wouldn’t make as much sense if you hadn’t had a bit of a run up to them.
Banks is my favourite author, in both flavours he wrote in. I still have to check the shelves of bookshops under B just to make sure I haven’t missed something even though I know I haven’t.
I miss having new Banks books to read and I’m so jealous of people just setting out with them all unread in front of them.

If you want an intro to banks as sci-fi writer, then I really rate Against a dark Background.

It's not a culture novel, but deals with many of banks' recurring themes.

Otherwise, publication order is best, the novels do move forward in "culture time" so later novels refer to things in the (distant) past that were current in earlier novels. However, they aren't "sequels" so you aren't going to lose much by picking a book at random.

There are a few quirky ones; use of weapons hi as triple story telling structure that moves back ward and forward in time, inversions is a culture novel told from the non culture point of view and feersum endjin is probably best left until you are a Banks addict.

Their are some of the best sci-fi books around, there is a deep ambivalence about the cultures aims (freedom) and it's methods that has some obvious parallels with the US since the second world war.

But a heart he is a brilliantly inventive storyteller with a imagination big enough to fill a universe.

Read them in order of publication.

I get the sentiment, but Use of Weapons was the first culture novel to be written, (in the 70's I believe) and third to be published  Then there's the Novels that reference each other; Excession - which is set 300 years after the events of Consider Phlebas has a clear reference to the events of The Player of Games, but the that novel is set 1000 years or so years after Consider Phlebas. I don't think Banks had an order in mind. So, knock yourself out. Also some of them just aren't very good. Look to Windward is a bit Mleh, and then do you include The Bridge in the culture series?

but order of publication is as good a method as any.

Look to Windward is my favourite, for the sense of melancholy. It was the first one I read, and was enough to get me hooked. Consider Phlebas after that felt a bit weak but definitely has its moments.

I'd definitely suggest reading Use of Weapons before Surface Detail. I started my Banks journey with Against A Dark Background, which isn't Culture but still a good read.

Consider Phlebas. Obviously.

Why would you include The Bridge? Walking on Glass and Transitions are more sci-fi but not obviously culture based.

As above, Consider Phlebas is just a Sci-Fi adventure romp which contains many well worn modern tropes (it will probably make you think of Firefly) but it predates most of them. It's good, but not special. It introduces lots of technology. Player of Games is where the fun starts IMO as it introduces the implications of all that technology and is where the moral and ethical stuff gets going.

My favourite is probably Surface Detail or the Hydrogen Sonata but not for first reads. Later in the series they really get involved with humanity, technology, existence, and religion in deep multi faceted ways. I read a few and enjoyed them but it wasn't until I'd read enough to think of them as an ensemble that I really realised what they were all about. They aren't a traditional book series, rather a series of novels about human concepts.

The guy was a proper 100% literary genius equal to any of the names revered by academics IMO.

I didn't much care for Use of Weapons though!

As for the guy in Player of Games being unlikeable - so what? Do we want to read about square jawed upstanding heroes or do we want to read about people and societies?

I don't get the hate for Gurgeh, sure he's a showman and a bit up himself in places but otherwise he's just naive having lived out an effete life before being flung into a situation well out his comfort zone.

There are plenty more unlikeable characters in that story with far more sinister motives and actions. I could go on but I'm not going to spoil it for the OP.

I read them: Consider Phlebas, Player of Games and Use of Weapons. With Player of Games being my favourite. Then I ran into Surface Detail and got bored.

Recently after a 5 year gap I read Inversions, which I really liked. Maybe I'll pick up another.

I love all Iain (M) Banks and re-read them every couple of years. I think I now own everything the wrote and published in book form except for Whit, which I just can't get on with. Petrol heads will particularly enjoy Raw Spirit, which almost has more about cars than whisky!

As per most above, written order works perfectly well.

I'm mainly just typing this to add:
Although it contradicts cannon (in which Earth is Contacted in the '70s then left alone as a control), I tend to class "The Business" as a Culture story too - it fits the Culture MO for secretly guiding a planet towards their ideals, over very long time spans.

Whit is brilliant, I really liked that one. If we want to talk about unlikeable protagonists though, Song of Stone sets a high bar.

Now realising there are more than a few I've not reread since the first sitting about 15-20 years ago. Oh well I'm sure I can force myself 😁

Great thread, had read them all (I think Player of Games, Consider Phlebas, struggled through Excession, then confused Use of Weapons/Feersum Enjin/Look to Windward) so going to dig out my old copies and line them up in rough order of the advice above.

I've said before and will say again, Iain M Banks sci-fi kind of ruined all other sci-fi for me, just seems a bit empty in comparison!

I have listened to all the Culture Series during lockdown and have just started my last, Feersum Enjin.
Thoroughly enjoyed all of them and was very interested in his Culture construct as a model of a future society.
I did sometimes take a while into the stories to piece together what was actually going on.

Why would you include The Bridge?

There's a theory that its a secret Culture novel

I wish I was about to sit down a read the Culture books for the first time.

But yes, Consider Phlebas first.

I’ve said before and will say again, Iain M Banks sci-fi kind of ruined all other sci-fi for me, just seems a bit empty in comparison!

Yeah, try Anathem and Seveneves by Neal Stephenson, the only Sci-Fi writer I know with as much intellect, although very different. Anathem needs to be read 3 times I think. Once to get to the end and see we what happens; a second time more slowly to really understand what's being said; and a third with Wikipedia open cross check the maths, physics, history and philosophy. That one could take several years!

I wish I was about to sit down a read the Culture books for the first time.

- Agatha Christie? Who's she?

- You just asked me to erase her from your memory!

- Why would I do that? I've never even heard of her.

rossburton
Free Member
I wish I was about to sit down a read the Culture books for the first time.

But yes, Consider Phlebas first.

I know exactly what you mean by that. I feel the same about some books, tv series and films.

OT but, was anyone else here on culture@busstop.org back in the day?

Great thread. I also highly recommend Neal Stephenson - the baroque cycle, Cryptonomicn and Anathem are simply astonishing. Anathem is the only book I’ve ever finished and then immediately started re-reading. His early stuff is good too - the Diamond Age in particular is bursting with fantastic ideas - but the books I mentioned at the beginning are up there with Banks - and possibly exceed them in terms of slack-jawed intellectual astonishment.

^^ Looks very interesting, cheers for that.👍

I read Cryptonomicon and didn't really get it. I'm apprehensive about the Baroque Cycle.

I also highly recommend Neal Stephenson – the baroque cycle, Cryptonomicn and Anathem are simply astonishing

Honestly I couldn't' disagree more I think. Just a wee bit too misogynistic, and little bit too racist for my taste. It's  shame (the concept is interesting, the Basil Exposition I could've done without) but he writes - and I hate to say this, like a lot of nerdy US white male writers (see Stephen King, et al). It's almost like they have a blind spot for it.

I think Banks’s own take on SiFi vs conventional was that he didn’t really acknowledge the difference, he just told stories set in a variety of places.

Once you have a fictional setting does it really matter if it’s somewhere on the west coast of Scotland or somewhere in space.

The antithesis of Rankin who allegedly researched his settings in great detail - probably why he didn’t write Rebus in space.

like a lot of nerdy US white male writers (see Stephen King, et al). It’s almost like they have a blind spot for it.

Is Stephen King misogynistic, or is he just writing about misogyny? Admittedly it's been a while since I read them but I didn't see misogyny.

Yeah, his most famous female (maybe?)  is the sole female of the losers club, she’s there because she’s being slut shamed. So, rather than address the problem of the abuse, ( which is true of all of the bullying including the boys)  it’s wrong because “ she’s not a slut” but that doesn’t stop her story arc from essentially being a recipient of the affection of the rest of losers who all try to hit on her.

all his female characters are hyper sexualised Thinner, Gerald’s game… just a bit icky really

I think Banks’s own take on SiFi vs conventional was that he didn’t really acknowledge the difference, he just told stories set in a variety of places.

I totally agree with this. The stories are set in space with a variety of species and Minds as the characters but the themes of loss, greed, war, death etc are universal.
I've tried persuading my wife to read them as she loves the non-M books but she won't try them due to 'all the silly aliens and stuff'.

The non-Culture 'M' books are interesting. The Algerbraist took me a couple of reads before I bonded with it for some reason. I can't stand Feersum Enjin; I've tried so many times but it just leaves me confused and really annoyed. Against A Dark Background is one of my favourite books by him in either guise...just a good adventure romp with some suitable Banksian darkness.

I can’t stand Feersum Enjin; I’ve tried so many times but it just leaves me confused and really annoyed.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, not Scottish and can't keep up with the vernacular? It's like the barbarian in The Bridge, just read it phonetically, relax and it's not a bother but that's said as a native so may not be as easy if you're not as familiar.

The stories are set in space with a variety of species and Minds as the characters but the themes of loss, greed, war, death etc are universal.

As in all books.

The reason this is sci-fi is that the technology plays a significant part. It's extrapolated from the basis that they have the technology to basically anything - and the stories are about what they do with it, the ethics of it, and how they handle it.

I’m going to go out on a limb here, not Scottish and can’t keep up with the vernacular?

I'm from Glasgow and it took me three attempts.

Once I finished it I couldn't really remember what it was about. Not his best, imo.

I think I picked up Feersum Enjin as an easy SF read after Mason & Dixon. Error.

Er. Feersum Enjin is Scottish vernacular. Did not realise that at all.

I hate vernacular in books. I read (as most people do) by recognising words, but in these books I don't recognise them so I have to read everything letter by letter. Much harder work.

More than happy with the phonetic spelling bits; the story, characters and overall lack of clarity about what was going on are what annoyed me.
I've read it slowly, quickly and with online reviews/guides open and its still gash IMHO.

the story, characters and overall lack of clarity about what was going on are what annoyed me.

Banks has got form for that though. You don't really find out what's going on until a good way through a good number of his culture/sci-fi novels, it's a stylistic tic you either like or don't

I know this as I'm a massive fan.

I’m from Glasgow and it took me three attempts.

I don't doubt you, if it's hard going for us then it's going to be a proper slog for someone not used to it.

It's another on the re-read list, Inversions is still back of the queue.

Bascule from Feersum Endjinn is one of my favourite characters. Love his tenacity. I think I read it when I was in a role supporting kids with dyslexia and he just made a lot of sense.

Once I finished it I couldn’t really remember what it was about

Entirely OT but I'm like a goldfish in that respect. I recently bought The Algebraist because I remember it coming out and not ponying up for the hardback edition.

Got about 2/3 of the way through and realised: "you know what, I have read this book before"; and then remembered buying it off eBay a few years back. Still couldn't remember the ending though.

I think I've read most of the Culture novels. I do find some of the grimmer passages a bit OTT at times -- The Archimandrite Luseferous in The Algebraist* is a good example of the kind of thing I'm thinking of. At the start his awfulness is darkly comic; as the novel goes on it's like "Yes, thank you, I get the point: this is a bad guy"; by the end he's like some pantomine villain and the effect is just totally lost. I'm not sure whether that's the point and I'm missing it; but it's something I have noticed in more than one Culture book.

Other than that, there's a lot to enjoy; and given my aforementioned goldfish tendencies maybe I'll go back and read them again 🙂

* appreciate this isn't a Culture novel per-se, but it's one that springs to mind as I've read it relatively recently

I love the Culture series, from the get-go the characters felt gritty and believable. If the OP wants to immerse themselves in the series then the obvious choice is to read in published order. Player of Games and Use of Weapons were stand out for me, after finishing Use of Weapons, it's probably a good idea to pick up The State of the Art for some reasonably light hearted relief.

I loved this line: "Also while I'd been away, the ship had sent a request on a postcard to the BBC's World Service, asking for 'Mr David Bowie's "Space Oddity" for the good ship Arbitrary and all who sail in her.' (This from a machine that could have swamped Earth's entire electro-magnetic spectrum with whatever the hell it wanted from somewhere beyond Betelgeuse.) It didn't get the request played. The ship thought this was hilarious".

I liked Inversions, but my missus (who loved The Crow Road and teaches literature to undergrads) hated it.

 Just a wee bit too misogynistic, and little bit too racist for my taste. It’s  shame (the concept is interesting, the Basil Exposition I could’ve done without) but he writes – and I hate to say this, like a lot of nerdy US white male writers (see Stephen King, et al). It’s almost like they have a blind spot for it.

I honestly didn't notice any of that. I definitely see the 'nerdy white writer' thing - the style is called 'maximalism' for a reason, and I'm a fan of Basil Exposition in book form - and there's clear evidence of deeply, deep heavy  research, but maybe you're right. I am, after all, a white, middle-aged bloke, so maybe I'm blind to it too. I do try not to be, mind. 🤷

Why would you include The Bridge?

There’s a theory that its a secret Culture novel

Not read the link but I'd agree with that. To me his non-scifi books are part of the same universe, same values, same resonances with some (Transisions, Walking on Glass, Complicity) tingling on the edge of the Culture.

The writer I'd recommend if you miss Banks (which I really do) is David Mitchell. Similarly all his books are part of the same world, sharing some characters in different roles. Some books are minor but all are good and hugely readable, hugely humane, sometimes very moving. Cloud Atlas divides people but it gives a full on scifi hit.

(Read all the sci-fi in the library when I was a kid, but pretty much left it behind by my 20s, bar Ballard and Banks, bit of LeGuin, y'know, literary shite...)

Yeah I think I read a review that suggested it would be less sexist is there were actually no female characters in it at all. 👀

I think there ought to be a book version of the Bechdel test really.

OT but, was anyone else here on culture@busstop.org back in the day?

I wasn't on that, but I was active on the alt.books.iain-banks usenet group. Last week I found the ticket for the reading he did in London circa 2002 where the group had a post-reading drink with Banks himself. The question is why the hell did I lose the tee he signed!

Read all the sci-fi in the library when I was a kid, but pretty much left it behind by my 20s, bar Ballard and Banks, bit of LeGuin, y’know, literary shite…

I did this - it helped that I had a Saturday job in a bookshop and the SF/Fantasy section was right next to the till. By the time I went to uni I'd read pretty much everything that was good and easily available, so I moved onto other genres and ignored SF, other than Banks and one or two other writers. Then, about 15 years ago, I decided that enough time had lapsed that some other great SF/F writers must have appeared. They haven't, sadly. Most of the suggestions on threads like this are for writers who are ok, at best, but nowhere near the standard of Banks. But, the great thing these days is the availability of older works online, so I've been working my way through Jack Vance, LeGuin, etc, and finding the odd classic that I missed out on, like Ballard.

Wasn't there a thread on here not so long ago listing sci-fi recommendations?

Wasn’t there a thread on here not so long ago listing sci-fi recommendations?

About every 4 weeks normally. 😀

Yeah, the search button just confirmed that. Mostly recommending this guy called Iain M Banks, anyone heard of him?

You don’t really find out what’s going on until a good way through a good number of his culture/sci-fi novels

Yeah this is true and part of the beauty of it. That's why I suggest starting reading with PoG because it's a story in its own right and depends less on having read other books.

Inversions would be the opposite (haha). It'd be pretty aimless unless you know where the two characters are from and what that means.

imnotverygood
Full Member

Er. Feersum Enjin is Scottish vernacular. Did not realise that at all.

It kind of is and isn't. Mostly Bascule is just a funetik aksent, there's wee bits of scottishness (I always remember "pants spotted with cack") but mostly it's that Bascule is presumed dyslexic and is also pretty stream-of-consciousness, we're getting his story as he experiences it

there’s wee bits of scottishness (I always remember “pants spotted with cack”)

Unless it means something completely different to 'pants spotted with cack' that's just a phrase that could be from anywhere in the country.

Yup, but the way he drops it in is very glesga

r. Feersum Enjin is Scottish vernacular.

It might take a page or two but I don't find dialetc real or invented, makes much difference to my reading interest or ease. I can't be that unusual or Trainspotting etc would've had more limited success than they did.

Trainspotting was brilliantly done in that the characters’ use of dialect changed both between characters and depending on whether they were in a drugged or clean part of their life.

I didn't finish Trainspotting partly because of the vernacular, and there was some other one set in Aberystwyth with people from all around the UK which was even more of a faff. Managed that one, then found out there were sequels and gave up.

One of my prize possessions is a copy of Inversions that I had signed by Iain M Banks when it came out - got to meet him in a bookshop in Glasgow, he was very patient and answered/indulged my inane questions with good humour.  A few years after he died my wife lent the book to a friend without telling me - very almost resulted in divorce proceedings...

he just told stories set in a variety of places

I liked his humour.

The other books are very good - The Wasp Factory.

Hate Fersum Engine.

I also like Christopher Brookmyre who isn’t really sci-fi.

Wasp Factory is a good book but very much a first novel albeit an excellent one. It has nothing like the depth of the rest of it, as you'd expect.

Christopher Brookmyre's done a sci-fi one now. It's good enough, but it's also just corrupt Parlabane in space.
Recently re-read The Bridge and totally missed the Culture references, so I'm going to have to read that again...

Yeah for me sci-fi has to be more than just the same old stuff but in space. Otherwise it's just fi.

Most of the suggestions on threads like this are for writers who are ok, at best, but nowhere near the standard of Banks.

I started reading Isaac Asimov's Foundation series off the back of one of those threads. I think it would be fair to say that Banks was very much influenced by Asimov. I've only finished the first book so far but I found it very similar in tone and theme, if not quite as "high tech" as the Culture. Definitely recommended if you're missing Banks and haven't already read them.

Christopher Brookmyre’s done a sci-fi one now.

I thought it wasn't v good if I'm honest, and I'd consider myself a fan.

Definitely recommended if you’re missing Banks and haven’t already read them.

Thanks for the suggestion. I read through plenty of Asimov back in the 80s. I didn't enjoy him much then, but still have some on the shelves, so maybe worth another try seeing as I'm a little more mature. 😀

What I have not been able to find anywhere else* is 'utopian' sci-fi. It's always dystopian, and that feels so hackneyed these days. Yeah ok there might be terrible wars and we might all be short of resources, but you know what? We've read about that. What if we're NOT short of resources?

* except Star Trek, but let's not go there. Or maybe we should? Federation meets Culture fan-fic?