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Feels to me like they've chucked the app on the table like another dead cat this week. People arguing over downloading and using it is more distraction from the actual problem. But more divide and conquer.
News yesterday ( ft and i are good sources) had study with only 11% quarantining after confirmed contact with positive case, and only 18% self isolating with symptoms. This is the actual problem.
The app is not going to change this. People are saying they would isolate if they had to, then not following through when it happens. Any message from the app is non enforceable, and it isn't perfect so it will make mistakes. People already ignoring the rules aren't going to be changed by an unproven phone app, assume a "mistake" and add to the culture of non compliance.
Say what now?
Effectively it's dead in the water without all of the data it's of no use at all. Also looks to be another "lets give our mates more money and undermine the NHS ruse".
Come on, use the app and isolate if required
This ^ but as with this whole CV19 episode you are doing your bit partly to make up for the significant chunk of population who have no internal dialogue apart from the narcissistic voice and a bubble round their head that stops them caring beyond the self.
If everyone followed the guidelines (and the accompanying test/trace was efficient) then cases would stay low and local lockdowns would be at a minimum.
But it’s always somebody else’s fault or problem.
Take some responsibility you idiots!
Say what now?
Another example of Tories putting ideology ahead of people's lives.
So is that a % of test results that can't be linked to your app?
Do we know what % CAN be input...?
Only ones that are booked through the app. Seeing as the app has only just launched that will be very few until people start to use it. The issue is till test availability though as one of my colleagues is off with symptoms and tried to book a test through the app only to be told there was nothing available. He's having a test this afternoon booked via the normal web portal but he knows whatever the result he'll be told by the app to isolate as there won't be a code to enter into it. If he tests negative he'll uninstall the app and be back in work.
Basically one simple thing - compatible codes for tests done without the app's involvement - means it's going to be a waste of time for a while. By the time tests are being booked through the app and the code system is working reliably we'll be well into the winter flu season and it'll be too late.
Hmmm...
Seems the efficacy of the app is a bit compromised for a while then.
Still, I've installed and will use, as that seems like the responsible and grown up thing to do, even if there's potential for a little personal inconvenience.
I've had to install it to get a seat in my local drinking spot, seems to be working okay, but I'll be turning it off when I leave because I'm not going anywhere with people.
I’m not going anywhere with people.
you live in a hole? Feel like its impossible to somewhere with no people.
Not installing the am is like not wearing a mask its not really there to protect you its there to protect others. But its cool people just be selfish.
I'm going home to Mrs Crikey, i see little point in using the app around my house.
Still, I’ve installed and will use, as that seems like the responsible and grown up thing to do
We'll have none of that sort of attitude. Internet arguments would just grind to a halt if we all felt like that.
I’m going home to Mrs Crikey, i see little point in using the app around my house.
If you're worried about the gov' knowing where you live they already do. Out of interest why do you see little point? Surly its more hassle to turn it off and on than just leaving it on.
Be a bit shit if your semi detached or terraced neighbour on the other wall tested positive.....and you registered as being in contact with them due to proximity....
How do they differentiate that then ?
I'd think there was many houses that have arrangements where back to back sofas make this sort of proximity a reality.
Be a bit shit if your semi detached or terraced neighbour on the other wall tested positive…..and you registered as being in contact with them due to proximity….
I mean if thats your argument that it can go through a wall you could be at a restaurant with another restaurant next door and get a positive test. On that single thought with zero evidence to back it up lets just bin the whole app.
Edit: and it said if the app tells you to isolate, you then get negative test, you still need to isolate until the app gives you the all clear, due to the incubation period.
Wait. This can't be true, can it?
I thought the whole point of getting tested was because the virus is asymptomatic for a couple of weeks. If the test can't detect the virus either then there's zero point in getting tested in the first place.
I suspect you may have misunderstood how the 'incubation period' works. Well, rather I sincerely hope you have because it's pretty grim if you're right.
mean if thats your argument that it can go through a wall you could be at a restaurant with another restaurant next door and get a positive test. On that single thought with zero evidence to back it up lets just bin the whole app.
Convince me otherwise.
Convince me otherwise.
haha "Convince me otherwise" you think a lot of yourself. Based on your response there is zero point. You created a totally fictional situation based on zero facts. Im not going to debate with someone thats just going to make stuff up.
Au contraire I asked a question you rubbished my question as not having any fact behind it
...it's a question I asked a question. Hence the question mark. It came to my mind as I was sat on my sofa last night knowing my neighbour is on the other side of the wall sitting on their sofa.....we are within 2 meters technically....
I followed that up with convince me after you also offered zero fact to my question.
Anyway I think the apps flawed majorly in other ways but this was a hypothetical flaw I'm asking if it is actually a flaw.
So as I said. Convince me that my hypothetical situation could not happen.
Convince me that my hypothetical situation could not happen.
The app uses a low energy Bluetooth signal to detect other devices. Go next door and try using your Bluetooth headphones through a solid wall, then consider that the app is using less power than that.
The app uses a low energy Bluetooth signal to detect other devices. Go next door and try using your Bluetooth headphones through a solid wall, then consider that the app is using less power than that.
Thank you. A fact based answer. Rather than a defence/offense akin to that of Dominic Cummings
*Edit. Shit Motorola g8 and aftershock titanium headphones. 12m and 2 brick walls before I lost constant signal a fair bit further down the garden before I lost intermittent. . How much less power ?
Au contraire I asked a question you rubbished my question as not having any fact behind it
…it’s a question I asked a question. Hence the question mark. It came to my mind as I was sat on my sofa last night knowing my neighbour is on the other side of the wall sitting on their sofa…..we are within 2 meters technically….
My answer to your question was just to point that it's a bit of a moo point and there could be conflicts no matter where you use the app and it doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. Aas for your question mark in your "convince me otherwise" reply there was on question mark and that came across a bit condescending and egotistical you could say "a defence/offense akin to that of Dominic Cummings." But whatever you think one way i think another way not much point in debated it much further than that.
As for the app like everything covid its been developed very quickly I have worked on apps that are less complex, and on a smaller scale that have taken longer to develop - so bugs will be there likely some show stoppers for some people. Conflicts will happen but its about ironing them out quickly. Theoretically this app could have a use base of 10s of millions far too many variables for them to catch them all. Its just a fact of product dev the difference here is everyone has their eyes on it unlike a normal roll out.
OK poor explanation attempt - I'll try again. The app uses signal strength to estimate the distance between devices - it will be stronger for devices 2m apart in fresh air than devices 2m apart with a wall between them, so the app would think that the devices with a wall between are further apart than they are. (the headphone example didn't quite work because the signal wasn't degraded enough to stop data being transmitted, so they keep working)
Unfortunately it will also think that 2 devices in cluttered bags are further apart than they are, or even possibly that 2 devices in a metal tube (like a bus or a train) are closer together than they are.
It's not a panacea, it's not foolproof, it might give false contacts or even miss possible contacts, but it's another tool in the box that could help all of us get back to some sort of normal life a bit quicker than not using it because of whataboutery.
Thank you for the explaintation purist . So it's working in the realms of between 12m and the middle of the garden and using it to work out distance
That makes much more sense than "just because it's a moot point"
- yours convinced of Aberdeen.
*No one said I wasn't using it....you have to to go to many places as pointed out above. ..but when I go out maybe once a week I don't see the need to have it on when I'm at home..
https://www.bluetooth.com/blog/3-common-mythsabout-bluetooth/
Up to a kilometre in the right conditions, and can go through walls.
https://www.bluetooth.com/learn-about-bluetooth/bluetooth-technology/range/
I think I will let other people alpha test this.
That makes much more sense than “just because it’s a moot point”
Haha, nice little dig there all because I challenged your opinion. If this was a real conversation that's basically talking about you not too you. Classy.
I really wish i knew of a way to mute/hide people on this forum
Edit . Actually **** it not worth my time
Is this still about me turning it off when I go home?
Why on earth would I be using the covid app in my own house?
There's me and Mrs C and the cats... FFS
...edited to say that if it gives me a notification that it's off everytime I pick up my phone it will not be staying long.
Up to a kilometre in the right conditions, and can go through walls.
https://www.bluetooth.com/learn-about-bluetooth/bluetooth-technology/range/
I think I will let other people alpha test this.
There is a saying - a little knowledge is dangerous - and you have just proved that very point.
I’ve used some kit that will do those sort of ranges via Bluetooth. It definitely won’t fit in your phone...
There’s me and Mrs C and the cats… FFS
My cat doesn’t have a smart phone, is there a piece of paper he can sign? 🐈
Is this still about me turning it off when I go home?
Why on earth would I be using the covid app in my own house?
Seems sensible, guess you might miss that unexpected visitor, delivery, postman etc. Or if me, more likely I'd forget to turn it back on again when I went out, so I leave it on.
Speaking to a friend on Friday, she's actively doing the opposite, turns it off when she goes to the supermarket 'because she doesn't want the hassle of isolating'. It's not a work/money thing with her either.
Why on earth would I be using the covid app in my own house?
Why not. It matters not one iota that you have it running in the background and that you’re at home, just leave it on and forget about it. I have it installed, did it as soon as I was able to, and it’s one big advantage is it dramatically speeds up checking into wherever you happen to be, like my regular pub, or the Cafe Nero in town. Previously, I had to scan the QRCode, then find the location, tap in my name, phone number, postcode, etc. Now, I open the NHS app, tap the scan button, scan the huge QRCode, and that’s it, couldn’t be easier or quicker.
I completely forget about it being on my phone until I go somewhere with a laminated sheet with an enormous QRCode and know I need to scan it.
Sorted. 10 million people have apparently downloaded it so far, and without making some big song and dance about it.
Unless you’re up to your ass in QAnon conspiracy shit, or a Republican, or both, you have no reason not to, and every reason to do so.
Speaking to a friend on Friday, she’s actively doing the opposite, turns it off when she goes to the supermarket ‘because she doesn’t want the hassle of isolating’. It’s not a work/money thing with her either.
Posted 11 hours ago
You have to wonder why she bothered downloading it then. The mind boggles.
Cougar, afraid so if I'm reading it correctly.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing-and-tracing/nhs-test-and-trace-if-youve-been-in-contact-with-a-person-who-has-coronavirus/
App tells you to isolate, get negative test, continue to isolate.
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You have to wonder why she bothered downloading it then. The mind boggles.
She works in a school, and all staff are expected to install it I think.
Again, I see no reason to have the app running in my house.
I switch it on when I go into places where it may provide information which will be useful, but leave it off when it won't.
Today I have been mostly walking on the moors; little point in using it.
I then wandered down into the village; little point in using it.
I sat in a bar with two friends; app switched on.
When I left, I turned it off to walk home.
The idea that switching it on and off is some kind of toil, or that I may forget is only applicable to simpletons.
When I go to work I see no cause to use it in my car. I work in a hospital and don't use my mobile during work hours so again, little point in it being on.
Again, I see no reason to have the app running in my house.
I switch it on when I go into places where it may provide information which will be useful, but leave it off when it won’t.
I guess the question is why you feel the need to do that (turning it off and on)? Do you have security concerns, tracking, or just general distrust? I mean its totally up to you no one can stop you turning off and on just intrigued.
The Scottish app has big writing on the main page saying "you can close this app and it will keep working"
So are people uninstalling it or turning Bluetooth off or do other nations apps work differently?
Living in Scotland and having spent the last 4 days in London, I had to download the England and Wales app as the NHS Scotland doesn’t work here. Fair enough, but the only way to get the England and Wales one to work was to input a fictional home postcode, that of our Air BnB in Watford, as it doesn’t recognise my Scottish one.
Having both Apps on my phone, only one can be enabled at any one time, so later today, once back in Scotland, I’ll have to disable the England and Wales one, in the iPhone settings. I wonder what will happen if the latter one tries to contact in the next week me based on a contact while in England..?
Quick question then, if I walk past someone in the street, outside, fleeting contact of seconds and we both have the app running, the other person later tests positive, does the app then instruct me to self isolate or does the contact have to be for a meaningful duration, e.g. the fable 15 minutes (I appreciate the app probably can't determine whether we're indoors or not but there's a major difference in infection likelihood indoors and out).
Here you go:
https://covid19.nhs.uk/risk-scoring-algorithm.html
And if you want to get technical:
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/exposurenotification/enexposureconfiguration
Ok, that doesn't really answer my question, lots about how it assesses how close you were, next to nothing concrete about frequency or duration of contact and how that impacts the risk calculation. Just a vague disconnected sentence about 3.6 minutes randomly inserted in the middle.
I guess the question is why you feel the need to do that (turning it off and on)? Do you have security concerns, tracking, or just general distrust? I mean its totally up to you no one can stop you turning off and on just intrigued.
No concerns like that at all; I do it to avoid having to charge my phone as often. I switch WiFi off, and mobile data, and location unless I need them. Bit like turning the telly off when I go to bed.
Given that most of my leisure time is spent in isolated countryside, alone, there's no point keeping things running.
She works in a school, and all staff are expected to install it I think.
I'd be tipping off the school, frankly. First positive case just reported at my lads college, teacher who was warned by track and trace about a social contact, absolutely vital that staff do all they can to identify if they are putting others at risk.
People really seem to be looking to find fault with this app.
It certainly answers your hypothetical situation.
Near under 2m
Medium 2-4m
Far 4+m (ignored by algorithm)
Duration averaged over every 3.6 minutes for scoring into High, Medium and Low risk.
Finally multiplied by infectiousness of individual you came into contact with.
Aggregated over a day to calculate your risk score.
So someone walking past you isn't even going to move the needle.
So someone walking past you isn’t even going to move the needle.
Glad someone else read it like that!
Again, I see no reason to have the app running in my house.
I switch it on when I go into places where it may provide information which will be useful, but leave it off when it won’t.Today I have been mostly walking on the moors; little point in using it.
I then wandered down into the village; little point in using it.
I sat in a bar with two friends; app switched on.
When I left, I turned it off to walk home.The idea that switching it on and off is some kind of toil, or that I may forget is only applicable to simpletons.
The whole intention is its passive - its not something you need to remember to turn on/off; suggesting that people are simpletons because they may forget to turn it on is frankly both rude, and unrealistic - I assume you've never put your phone on silent and missed a call later as a result? As I've not been in a bar or cafe since march, on your basis I wouldn't bother to install it - but I might stop to help someone who's lost when I'm on a walk, or countless other scenarios where I end up in relatively close proximity to others for a period of time unpredictably, and where I wouldn't have their contact details.
I've not been back through the thread so apologises if this has already been covered but has anyone had a notification of any form yet.
I had something which I didn't read and cleared by accident. Went into the app and can't find anything to suggest what the notification was? I downloaded on Thursday and haven't been anywhere since apart from a very brief visit to ASDA.
Duration averaged over every 3.6 minutes for scoring into High, Medium and Low risk
What's averaged every 3.6 minutes, sorry for being thick, the estimated distance to another phone?
I’ve not been back through the thread so apologises if this has already been covered but has anyone had a notification of any form yet.
I had something which I didn’t read and cleared by accident.
There were a few notifications from my Android phone overnight, but they disappeared 🤔 Something about it needing Bluetooth to work (but Bluetooth is always on).
suggesting that people are simpletons because they may forget to turn it on is frankly both rude, and unrealistic – I assume you’ve never put your phone on silent and missed a call later as a result?
This is me all the time. I used to turn WiFi, NFC, Bluetooth off and on to save battery. Then try to pay for something forgetting NFC is off, wondering why the Internet seems slow at home then remember WiFi is off etc. etc. So I just leave it all on now. Batteries are decent size.
What’s averaged every 3.6 minutes, sorry for being thick, the estimated distance to another phone?
I assume it estimates a distance reading every 3.6 mins, then averages the readings? e.g. sitting right next to someone for 36 minutes would be higher risk than a waiter coming up to you four times over the same 36 minutes.
I'll use my phone the way I want to use it, thanks all the same. Given that the entry requirement to my drinking establishment is to have the app active and scan in before getting a seat, there's no danger of me forgetting.
– but I might stop to help someone who’s lost when I’m on a walk, or countless other scenarios where I end up in relatively close proximity to others for a period of time unpredictably, and where I wouldn’t have their contact details
The point, which seems to have evaded some is to alter your behaviour; you've had 8 months worth of time to practice. The app isn't magic, so actively avoid spending time in relatively close proximity to others instead of relying on some gadget.
Crikey, use it how it makes sense in your case. It sounds like you're being pretty reasonable. At least you've installed and are using the app. My phone will go 2 days, roughly, between charges with everything including Bluetooth switched on anyway, so the power consumption of this app is in the noise for me.
Interestingly, out of 3 of us in our office today I'm the only one to have installed it. One older guy who'd heard it munches your battery, and the other who was worried about being required to isolate unnecessarily. They're both smart people. It worries me a bit they haven't looked in to it further.
The point, which seems to have evaded some is to alter your behaviour; you’ve had 8 months worth of time to practice. The app isn’t magic, so actively avoid spending time in relatively close proximity to others instead of relying on some gadget.
I have which is why I've not been in a pub or cafe since March. On the other hand, if I see someone in trouble on the hills, woods, or roads I'm not going to ignore them because of a theoretical covid risk.
But hey, I'm not the one calling others simpletons!
Interestingly, out of 3 of us in our office today I’m the only one to have installed it. One older guy who’d heard it munches your battery, and the other who was worried about being required to isolate unnecessarily. They’re both smart people. It worries me a bit they haven’t looked in to it further.
The thing is even in a non covid world many won't / don't bother to do any further reading if they did I think our gov' would be a lot better hands. The isolation thing I think is a real concern especially for those who need to be in a place of work to do their job - especially when you got handcock saying oh if you gotta isolate you can just collect standard sick pay which wont be paying anything more than a phone bill.
For the sake of national harmony and in light of the current situation, I hereby formally withdraw my simpleton insult. I think we're all dealing with this in our own ways; given the lack of sensible guidance it seems that's all we can do.
I am actively avoiding any crowded places; I have developed a very low tolerance for other people but, as you have said, nor would I avoid helping.
I'm off out now and will use the app as soon as I stop.
🙂
I've downloaded it but struggling to get it to work? It say 'Contact tracing is off' but I can't seem to turn it on. Bluetooth is on. Button at bottom saying 'Contact tracing' won't flip to on (assuming on is to the left).
iPhone 7 running 14.0.1
The isolation thing I think is a real concern
I'm not saying it isn't. Though for both of those in my office it won't be that big a deal, and apparently it's not a big deal for jamze's friend either, but here we are. Again, the government has done a great job of destroying confidence and trust.
Dogbone, suggest you uninstall, reinstall.
I don't need the app, I've already got decent antivirus on my phone.
Thanks Del. Now working.
Cougar, afraid so if I’m reading it correctly.
...
App tells you to isolate, get negative test, continue to isolate.
That's insane.
App tells you to isolate, get negative test, continue to isolate.
Which I suspect is why a good few people won't be downloading the app...
Again, I see no reason to have the app running in my house.
Your partner gets flagged as at risk by the app, because you're not running it at home it breaks the chain between you and her so everyone you've been in contact with who should be notified isn't.
I do it to avoid having to charge my phone as often.
The technology used is BLE - Bluetooth Low Energy. Lighting up your screen multiple times a day to turn the app on and off probably uses more power than if you were to just leave it on and leave your phone dark.
Does your phone battery not last the day? Is plugging it in before you go to bed far less hassle than buggering about in application settings every ten minutes? (I mean, there's a risk you might forget, but surely only a simpleton would do that...)
App tells you to isolate, get negative test, continue to isolate.
That’s insane.
Maybe not.
Let's say 'Bob' has a positive test result and the app tells the 6 people he's been in close contact with to self-isolate. One of those contacts (let's call him 'Cougar') has a a chance (let's say 30%) of having caught coronavirus from Bob. The app tells Cougar to stay home so he doesn't infect anyone else. If it didn't do that, the r-value for Bob would be two (30% x 6 contacts).
The app doesn't tell Cougar's contacts to self-isolate. He's only got a 30% chance of having the virus, so his contacts only have a 10% chance of being infected - so it would be too strict to get them staying home too.
We want Cougar to get tested so that if he does definitely have the virus we can tell his contacts to self-isolate.
However the test doesn't pick up Coronavirus while it's incubating - so Cougar's negative test is just as likely to mean (for Cougar) that he's still developing enough viral load to be detected as it is to mean he's not been infected. So unfortunately for Cougar he has to stay in until the 14 days are up (if he remains symptom-free).
Good thinking. It is, I guess, all just a numbers game.
I’d be tipping off the school, frankly. First positive case just reported at my lads college, teacher who was warned by track and trace about a social contact, absolutely vital that staff do all they can to identify if they are putting others at risk.
My partner works in a school. They've been explicitly told that they cannot have the app running whilst at work.
meh.
Mrs C doesn't have the app, has no interest in having the app and her lifestyle is such that she probably doesn't need the app because she can't catch anything from a sewing machine to which I am a widower.
I really don't need to justify the way I use my phone to anyone so you can all kindly jeff off.
I've turned it on once today and now I'm home I've turned it off again.
I can tell you all that I've met 2 people for a time greater than 15 minutes all day because I'm an antisocial ****er who regards most people in a less than positive light.
I'm using it in a sensible and limited way that corresponds with my lifestyle and is as effective as leaving it on all the time, without leaving it on all the time.
I really don’t need to justify the way I use my phone to anyone
No, but if you're doing it to save battery it's likely to be having the opposite effect. Which is rather a silly thing to do.
If you're doing it just to be contrary then fill your boots, I couldn't care less.
but if you’re doing it to save battery it’s likely to be having the opposite effect
As noted above, I've turned it on once and off once.
Much though I appreciate your concern, it's really nothing to do with you.
It's all getting a bit
because I’m an antisocial **** who regards most people in a less than positive light.
Evidently.
30 odd years of public service tends to leave its mark.
Anyone any idea what happens if your Employer installs this on a work phone and you already have it on your own personal phone ? i.e. you'd be running two instances of it which will see each other as contacts ?
My partner works in a school. They’ve been explicitly told that they cannot have the app running whilst at work.
Trying to work out the logic of this 🤔
Anyone any idea what happens if your Employer installs this on a work phone and you already have it on your own personal phone ? i.e. you’d be running two instances of it which will see each other as contacts ?
Well in theory if you were notified as being in contact with someone who is positive, or you tested positive and put the result into one of the phones, the other phone should notify you too.
Trying to work out the logic of this 🤔
I think it's mostly that the head teacher is a control freak. Logic does not often feature strongly in her (many) staff mandates.
No concerns like that at all; I do it to avoid having to charge my phone as often. I switch WiFi off, and mobile data, and location unless I need them. Bit like turning the telly off when I go to bed.
My 6S battery is so bad now my phone goes on Flight Mode whenever I leave the house for more than an hour as otherwise it just drains the battery flat whilst I'm out (I assume mainly through base station handovers as I always kill all the apps when I've finished using them).
Getting a new battery has been on my ToDo list for some time.....
Getting a new battery has been on my ToDo list for some time…..
For the cost of it, why not upgrade to a 7? By the time you have sold your 6S and bought a decent 7 I would have said the costs would be similar and a good 7 (with, say, 90% battery health) will last much longer than a 6S with a brand new battery.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54328644
Sounds like you need to get onto this lot as well lads.
So, had the App running on my phone since it was launched. Got an alert this evening saying something like I might be at risk. So you click on the alert (iPhone) and it takes you to the App. Then nothing. Literally nothing. Not when, where or for how long. So I’ve absolutely no information on which to react.
Sorry if this has been covered earlier but how completely useless. My inclination is to ignore as I have no way of quantifying the risk. I don’t expect names and mugshots but something would be helpful.
The protect.scot app now has a "Pause" facility for use if working whilst wearing full PPE, behind a perspex screen etc.
wearing full PPE, behind a perspex screen etc.
This is what’s concerning NHS staff- the app doesn’t know when you’re wearing PPE, so if I’m on ICU next to a C+Ve patient I’ll be flagged as a contact. Not sure I’ll remember to turn the app on and off for each shift...