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Maybe I need a tinfoil hat but there is no way on earth I would use the UK governments covid app and I have serious reservations about using any app.
Wow 3 weeks without the a word but now a little sky story.
Unlike almost any country in the world, the NHSX app wouldn't send out alerts based on a positive test, but on reports of symptoms made by users.
Part of the reason was a desire for epidemiological data. But just as important, according to three NHSX advisers, was the fact that the English testing system couldn't deliver results or data fast enough to make the app work effectively.
Now being reported that the track and trace system didn't carry out the legally compulsory data impact assessment and hence is essentially unlawful.
While I generally subscribe to the position that when there's an option between a conspiracy or a simple cock-up.......on a matter such as this it's pretty inconceivable to me that the people in charge weren't aware. It seems that the devolved nations managed it. And now the Gov (Williamson in this case) is defending it as having to be set up at speed and 'you're not advocating we get rid of it are you?'
Total incompetence or untrustworthy. What a menu of choices.
It may not be lawful but at least it works
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1285106458078715904?s=19
It's finally out.
For those worried about installing it, I'd hope the original app fiasco would encourage you to believe that this version doesn't have issues. The app is a bit like vaccinating your children: it only works if everyone installs it. So you need to install it for others' sake.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.nhs.covid19.production
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/id1520427663
The app is a bit like vaccinating your children: it only works if everyone installs it. So you need to install it for others’ sake.
Its nothing like vaccinating your children then. Vaccinating your children provides them with a direct benefit, and with sufficient numbers provides a degree of protection to those who aren't/can't vaccinate.
Interestingly when Scotland launched its app a few weeks ago they said even 15-20% uptake would be enough to have some benefit.
ministers failed to carry out privacy assessment, as required by GDPR laws.
I mean its almost like the bloke in charge is known to not care about details... aka boris
I can't make my mind up on this. I feel as a good citizen I should install it.
So I installed it. First thing it does is turn on location on my Android phone. Battery issues? I assume it's not GPS just BT location?
Like a good freedom loving citizen, I won't be installing it...
I can’t make my mind up on this. I feel as a good citizen I should install it.
This is me.
But right now I’m not sure I will.
I’m going to give it a week or 2 to see if there are any horror stories before making a final decision
Is this useful without access to testing? A question, not an indictment.
Can it be used to monitor local infection rates and indicate trends, or is that out of scope?
I've uninstalled I think I'll give it a week or two let them iron out the kinks.
I installed the Scottish Version a couple of weeks ago - no noticeable effect on battery life (kept Bluetooth on all the time anyway) and unsurprisingly as I work from home and only really go out to walk the dog or go to remote places, it hasn't had the occasion to ping me.
The fact it is so easy to disable the app (not that I have!) by turning the bluetooth off may reduce it's effectiveness. I can foresee a situation where by folk will think "I have this thing I want to do next week, but want to go to the pub tonight. I'll be best turning the app off tonight to prevent it telling me to isolate and potentially miss doing that thing I want to do"
Is this useful without access to testing? A question, not an indictment.
Can it be used to monitor local infection rates and indicate trends, or is that out of scope?
It would be pretty useless if there was zero testing, but that's not the situation. Over 200k tests yesterday. Turnaround time for test results is also important.
It gives a risk level for the area you are in. I'm currently in a 'medium' risk area (or adjacent to one).
The amount of data we leave on the web is huge, yet people think this app will allow the government to spy even more...
I'm not hugely worried by it as I don't go anywhere....
QQ for those who are sceptical of the app. Say for a second the data / your location isnt anonymised and the gov' know where you are what evil can they do with knowing you went to the local coffee shop or pub?
So I installed it. First thing it does is turn on location on my Android phone. Battery issues? I assume it’s not GPS just BT location?
Bluetooth Low Energy requires location permissions on Android, because it can be used to identify someone's location with great precision. Anything that needs access to Bluetooth services will need to request this permission.
I can think of bigger things to be worried about. The sort of person who thinks the Government is going to be tracking them with a Covid-19 app is unlikely to self-isolate if required, wear a mask, or have a vaccine.
*** it's taken them six months to get this app out in its current basic form. If they want to track your location there are better ways that already exist.
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Say for a second the data / your location isnt anonymised and the gov’ know where you are what evil can they do with knowing you went to the local coffee shop or pub?
Amongst other things they can direct a social media blitz shouting "vote Leave" at you at a time when they know you are befuddled by drink and likely to make a poor decision.
I'm not worried about the BT location information per se. As others on here have commented I'm sure Google have loads on me everytime I use navigation on maps (yes I have disabled that little known setting where it logs all your journeys). I was worried about the battery life really but BT is always on so I guess it don't matter.
Lad and I gave downloaded it. Be interested to see how many of his fellow college students have.
Even with my mental health wobbles, paranoia about this app hasn't even occurred to me.
Has the accuracy been confirmed yet?
For example, lets say I go to the pub twice.
One night I am sat inside approx 1 metre from someone, sat face-to-face.
The next night outside, approx 2 metres from someone and we are back to back.
The risk of transmission is much higher in the first example compared to the second.
Whilst I know it do't be able to work out ho we're sat, will it know if we're inside or out? And will it know the difference between 1 metre and 2?
Is this useful without access to testing? A question, not an indictment
Yes. It may also be that it would help them prioritise testing, either in terms of who or where effort is directed towards, but at the most basic level it says "you are higher risk of having covid, so don't mingle".
Can it be used to monitor local infection rates and indicate trends, or is that out of scope?
It won't tell them infection rates, but it might give some useful clues on "exposure rates", ie. how many people each user is exposed to, and if that is changing dramatically.
The Scottish one seemed to present me with a summary of how many potential exposures I had has in the past week (its a shame that isn't a nice dashboard since I think it might encourage people to avoid exposure!). In an ideal world it would not only tell me how many potential exposures but have some sort of score about how many potentials they have. If the only people I see are cautious elderly relatives who rarely interact with others my risk is radically different from seeing the same number of people but where those people are on and off public transport, pub, and other gatherings...
Whilst I know it do’t be able to work out ho we’re sat, will it know if we’re inside or out? And will it know the difference between 1 metre and 2?
No it will have no idea if you are indoors or outdoors. Its not clear how robust any of the systems are at estimating distance. There are two many variables. Phone model, orientation, potentially reflective materials, people in the way, inside a bag, etc. Its not intended to be a magic tool - its a possible way of capturing people who might have been in your infective zone for quite a long time (15 mins).
One night I am sat inside approx 1 metre from someone, sat face-to-face.
The next night outside, approx 2 metres from someone and we are back to back.
The risk of transmission is much higher in the first example compared to the second.
This is true. But in either scenario, you should be isolating to stop yourself passing it on. If anything... if the app was able to accurately tell you which way you were facing, and if you were just 1m+ or over 2m apart, then that could be a bad thing as people may just discount encounters that their 'common sense' told them were low risk... the 2m rule isn't magic, it's just lowering the risk of transmission, not removing it. If you spent a decent amount of time sat near someone with the virus, you could be a carrier now. Be safe, don't take it work (or another pub).
The fact it is so easy to disable the app (not that I have!) by turning the bluetooth off may reduce it’s effectiveness. I can foresee a situation where by folk will think “I have this thing I want to do next week, but want to go to the pub tonight. I’ll be best turning the app off tonight to prevent it telling me to isolate and potentially miss doing that thing I want to do”
This, very much this.
I’ve downloaded it.
I actually trust our government slightly more than I do Mark Zuckerberg, which is really saying something.
I'm gonna DL it, despite some misgivings.
I’ll be best turning the app off tonight to prevent it telling me to isolate
But the same goes for giving your details to the pub/restaurant. They'll be people leaving false details to avoid being contacted. No system that isn't like something from 1984 will stop the selfish from spreading the virus if they want to avoid or work around the help given to them to avoid doing so.
The amount of data we leave on the web is huge, yet people think this app will allow the government to spy even more…
This.
I've downloaded it, I'm not sure how accurate or helpful it'll be but they'll only be able to make the app better, more accurate and more useful if people use it. If it drains my battery a little faster then so be it, I'm pretty sure I'm never that far from a charger. For those worried about the government tracking your location, there's much easier ways to do that within the mobile phone networks than having an NHS app on your phone.
I have serious reservations about using any app.
...and yet you trust Mark Zuckerberg. Weird.
Downloaded, if it helps a tiny bit, then good.
Downloaded it too, again if it helps a tiny bit I'm in.
Interesting discussion at work, the top bosses not in favour of it at all (understatement) - as people might need to isolate if they're been exposed, and that's inconvient to the greedy so-and-sos!! The same bosses do not want anyone who CAN work from home, to do so! This thing really shines a light on people
Interestingly when Scotland launched its app a few weeks ago they said even 15-20% uptake would be enough to have some benefit.
So hopefully enough of us will be able to see past personal fears about how data might be used and/or being told an uncomfortable truth (ie, they have to self-isolate) and download it.
I did it first thing this morning and I hope the vast majority of all the grown-up and sensible users on here will do the same and try to do one tiny thing that might just help mitigate the eventual final outcome of the pandemic.
I have downloaded it as well.
Interesing that people think Bluetooth or BLE can detect your location.
With GPS your phone can detect where it is located (by triangulation of the signals it gets from several satellite's that are always in the same position). You phone OS can then share that location with an App or upload it into the internet somewhere.
Bluetooth can also detect signals from other bluetooth devices and your phone can understand the signal strength (so likely distance). To use bluetooth for location awareness, you need an application that knows where each bluetooth beacon (or sender of the signal is), and then again your phone can triangulate your position - This is how indoor way finding works, and no matter what people claim anything sub 2m is very difficult.
The contact tracing apps don't worry about triangulation, they just store the bluetooth ID's of other phones you have been near, and based on signal strength and time it calculate's when you have been near someone long enough for a potential transmission to occur. This is then stored for 2 weeks in case the other person tests positive, and it that case you are notified. So if you get notified it will be because of your proximity to someone who has subsequently tested positive, not where you were.
The UK app also has a check-in feature, that just allows you to skip the giving your name and contact details when you arrive at a venue.
And for the paranoid who won't download the App because "someone" might know where you are and where you have been, the fact you have your phone with you means "someone" already knows this data - (think the mobile network, any public WiFi company you have signed up to, etc etc)
Interesing that people think Bluetooth or BLE can detect your location.
Yet you've literally just spent several paragraphs explaining how you (or someone else) can determine a phone's position via Bluetooth...
I've downloaded it. Quite exciting. I'm imagining it as a bit like the scanners the marines use in Aliens. Would be cool if it made the same noise.😀
<Yet you’ve literally just spent several paragraphs explaining how you (or someone else) can determine a phone’s position via Bluetooth…>
No, I have just spent several paragraph saying it can't as the reference point (other people's phones) are not in a know position
The road agencies use Bluetooth to calculate estimated driving times displayed on those dynamic notification boards seen on major trunk roads too.
The protect.scot app now has over 1.1 million installs. Even allowing for some uninstalls and folk switching BT off, that's got to be at least 25% of the mobile phones in Scotland, so above the efficacy threshold.
No, I have just spent several paragraph saying it can’t as the reference point (other people’s phones) are not in a know position
The whole point of BLE beacons is to enable location tracking indoors. If your phone sees one of those, then it knows that other devices in range are in the same proximity.
I doubt it's doing this, but that's what I'd do if I wanted to implant chips in the general population- I mean, track their exact position.
Doesn't seem to be gobbling battery on my phone, but it's a Huawei so there's a long pecking order for tracking apps and I suspect the Covid-19 one is behind the CCP / Google / Facebook etc... 😉
Installed it as I want to know if I'm at risk of passing it on to my parents.
Be interesting to see how it deals with my Home Delivery job as I spend more than 15 minutes in the van hooked up to the radio, that van is shared with other drivers who do the same and due to the job I spend 10-15 minutes at private homes of shielders, inside sheltered accommodation and the occasional OAP home.
The fact it is so easy to disable the app (not that I have!) by turning the bluetooth off may reduce it’s effectiveness. I can foresee a situation where by folk will think “I have this thing I want to do next week, but want to go to the pub tonight. I’ll be best turning the app off tonight to prevent it telling me to isolate and potentially miss doing that thing I want to do”
I know of people that will 100% do this, they're the same people who have been giving false details to places they have visited too. Their placing in my internal list of 'People I Trust' has dropped considerably.
Interesting quote from Hancock - although people advised by the app to self-isolate because they had been close to a person testing positive should follow that advice, it was not a legal requirement - unlike an instruction from NHS Test and Trace.
I’ve downloaded it. I’ve nothing to hide and my location is already tracked every time I use Google Maps, upload to Strava and use my Morrison’s card! Like others say if it helps even a tiny bit...
In high risk area living just the other side of the Bradford border.
I know of people that will 100% do this,
I know someone who had a '**** off I'm exempt' t shirt printed (she's not) so she could go shopping/to the pub with no mask because she 'knows her rights'.
this may be a stupid question, but does the app actually need to be "open" in the background.
I have a habit of closing all the Apps that I have used each time I pocket my phone again (for no real reason, its just a habit)
And I turn it off overnight which also closes all the apps so nothing is open when turned back on in the morning. Just wanted to be sure I wasn't "using it wrong"
Just tested that on my phone and it does seem to need to be open in the background to work.
it was not a legal requirement – unlike an instruction from NHS Test and Trace
It can't be a legal requirement... you can't be legally required to do something by an anonymous targeted notification. Well... I hope that we never go down that route, anyway.
this may be a stupid question, but does the app actually need to be “open” in the background.
I have a habit of closing all the Apps that I have used each time I pocket my phone again (for no real reason, its just a habit)And I turn it off overnight which also closes all the apps so nothing is open when turned back on in the morning. Just wanted to be sure I wasn’t “using it wrong”
Not sure about the first question - I do that also.
2nd question I read somewhere on the NHS App help website you need to unlock your phone once after you've turned it back on.
Edit: Found it
The amount of data we leave on the web is huge, yet people think this app will allow the government to spy even more…
Just because it happens elsewhere doesn't make the app spying ok. The executive work for us and they should be reminded of this regularly not just at election time.
See also the unwritten constitution that we had that the current executive are ignoring with relative impunity.
The whole point of BLE beacons is to enable location tracking indoors. If your phone sees one of those, then it knows that other devices in range are in the same proximity.
Huh? BLE is (for most practical purposes) one-way communication. A beacon is just that, it's a transmitter, it has no knowledge of you or anyone else. Have I misunderstood what you're saying?
This is what Paul was explaining at on the previous page. The app on your phone is effectively broadcasting your (allegedly) anonymous ID to be picked up by any other devices that are listening. In and of itself this is insufficient to ascertain your actual location, you'd have to combine that data with other geolocation information. This is where your beacons come in as they're at fixed, known locations - so for example you could use them to underpin an interactive store guide app in a shopping centre. But that's got nowt to do with Track & Trace.
Do all contact tracing apps interact or would you need to change apps if you were travelling?
But that’s got nowt to do with Track & Trace.
I never said it was. But beacons are used to track location and footfall.
I know someone who had a ‘**** off I’m exempt’ t shirt printed (she’s not) so she could go shopping/to the pub with no mask because she ‘knows her rights’.
Louise?
Mandatory in my gym to have the NHS app installed and scan the QR code before every session. This despite already having individual key fobs and a booking system.
Do all contact tracing apps interact or would you need to change apps if you were travelling?
Those that use the apple-google api are capable of interacting, but it needs some agreement in the back end to send alerts correctly. So instead I've 5 on my phone now. you can only use one at a time, but the data set is the same, so in theory if I jump from the uk-germany-austria I won't lose any interaction history, AFAIK.
Downloaded it. Used it to log into a venue for a coffee with a workmate. Easy peasey.
The register has a short article about the app. I found this comment from 'anonymous coward' on it useful: 
*If* - and that's a big if - they're sticking to the described privacy policy documents then the application is about as close as you can feasibly get to truly anonymous. The two key problematic datasets - exposure notifications and venue checkins - both stay on your device. The only potentially identifiable bits of persistent information are your part-postcode and your device and application version information. That would be enough for a really determined attacker to identify you, but they wouldn't gain much - there's no logs of activity maintained or anything like that. Just active/stale flags and rolling counts. So they'd be able to tell (after an inordinate amount of work) that you had used the app in the last day and checked into two venues, but not where or when or anything actually useful. That is a Good Thing.
I'm one of those people you'll have seen posting, at length, in the original article threads (as AC, natch) railing against the enormous volumes of data NHSX were planning to hoover up and the insane privacy agreements they were asking the testers to commit to - handing the data over to Palantir and co for 7+ years. All of that is gone. The NHS have clearly put a huge amount of effort into writing the new privacy policy, the new data journey document and the human-readable versions of the same. They're now frankly exemplary pieces of work. Assuming those policies are being properly adhered to, the teams responsible for this turnaround do appear to deserve at least a handshake. Well, a sanitised handshake anyway. There is a pandemic on.
Yup... it's a whole world away from that abandoned abomination... it might even work! Downloading before I next go out... will have the chance to read some tear downs of the app by then as well... but I already have much more confidence in using this one than the shower of shit the other one was turning out to be.
^ same Kelvin
I've downloaded it. Hopefully everyone else will to.
Downloaded it. I am doing a lot of volunteering with a high-risk group, though unlikely this group will have a high take-up of the app, but at least if I am alerted that I have been in contact with someone who has tested positive, I will be able to stop my volunteering and reduce the risk to this group.
Mandatory in my gym to have the NHS app installed and scan the QR code before every session. This despite already having individual key fobs and a booking system.
Excellent. I said months ago that there needs to be a personal benefit to using it, such as entry to venues/public transport and so on.
If I don't intend to go to the pub, restaurant, gym etc. and don't spend 15 minutes with anyone other than close family (wife and daughter under 16) is there any reason why I should get the app?
I take my daughter to school and back a couple of times a week in the car and that is the big risk for the family but she is out of the scope of the app
Do you shop?
im still wondering about the proximity thing in flats.
if i leave my phone on the floor while it’s charging and downstairs has theirs on a table then how does it know there’s a concrete floor between us?
i went to airdrop a photo to my partners phone in her flat and the downstairs neighbour appeared as a send option (despite having contacts only selected) so bluetooth works through walls/floors. maybe signal strength is used to help tell if there is masonry between you?
it was not a legal requirement – unlike an instruction from NHS Test and Trace
It can’t be a legal requirement… you can’t be legally required to do something by an anonymous targeted notification. Well… I hope that we never go down that route, anyway.
Couple if guys on the radio this morning (tech journalists) were saying that the app can notify you if you need to self isolate but it has no way of identifying you, so there's no way they can follow up to find out if you do as told.
im still wondering about the proximity thing in flats.
I said the same thing way back about next door neighbours. I've potentially been "within two metres" of the bloke next door for days at a time.
Do you shop?
Rarely I do but I am moving around and would estimate in store for less than ten minutes. I was just trying to figure out if this would do anything at all if my wife and I do not get in to another persons company for more than 15 minutes, if that is the 'risk' criteria used then I guess not.
Mandatory in my gym to have the NHS app installed and scan the QR code before every session. This despite already having individual key fobs and a booking system.
That seems odd when a large percentage of phones that are in common usage aren't compatible with the app.
im still wondering about the proximity thing in flats.
if i leave my phone on the floor while it’s charging and downstairs has theirs on a table then how does it know there’s a concrete floor between us
This is a massive problem. My mate who worked on the original app spent a lot of time in NPL's labs trying to understand how pervasive BLE is and it turns out to be frikking nightmare. It'll ricochet down supermarket aisles, jump through walls, across streets. He wrote up about his experiences here
Lots of bleating about incompatibility like the thoughtless bastards who designed phones six years ago to be sold five years ago had this in mind. Five Live even gave airtime this morning to an oldie who was all too proud to tell the nation she used a land line and therefore it wasn't compatible with her way of life. The sea's over there love.
I've downloaded it but can just as easily uninstall it unlike the facial recognition CCTV over there >>> ^^^ <<<< VVVV
If I don’t intend to go to the pub, restaurant, gym etc. and don’t spend 15 minutes with anyone other than close family (wife and daughter under 16) is there any reason why I should get the app?
is there any reason why you shouldn't?
Odd that people are so hesitant/worried about it, when they already giveaway their digital info all over tha place already! Main point is, it's for the greater good. It's not going to be perfect, but if it helps, a bit, it's worth it surely.
Odd that people are so hesitant/worried about it, when they already giveaway their digital info all over tha place already! Main point is, it’s for the greater good. It’s not going to be perfect, but if it helps, a bit, it’s worth it surely.
this
if I ruled the world, I'd force it onto everyone's phones (much like apple did with the U2 album)
is there any reason why you shouldn’t?
Exactly - download it and if you are 100% safe from infection then you will simply never get an alert saying you may have been in contact with someone that may have it. In the meantime the Government will get a bit more data to enable them to better understand the travels of the virus and possibly identify spikes more effectively to enable them to react more promptly.
I really don't see a single grown-up argument against downloading the app.
That seems odd when a large percentage of phones that are in common usage aren’t compatible with the app.
How large a percentage? My Android phone (S7) is on the cusp of that sort of obsolescence. It's a f******* nightmare to use. The screen is either unreactive or thinks I'm pressing . all the time whilst typing. The battery lasts half a day unless it's plugged in, it's constantly telling me to free up space and the camera is slightly foggy.
The average life is 2.88 years according to : https://www.statista.com/statistics/619788/average-smartphone-life/
Which means the average age is probably arround 1.4
Odd that people are so hesitant/worried about it, when they already giveaway their digital info all over tha place already! Main point is, it’s for the greater good. It’s not going to be perfect, but if it helps, a bit, it’s worth it surely.
I gave Tesco £100 for the weekly shop on Friday. Should I give everyone £100? It would have been for the greater good, but I'd have been bankrupt by the time I left the fruit and veg isle.
if I ruled the world, I’d force it onto everyone’s phones (much like apple did with the U2 album)
This new app might not be as bad as a U2 album, or the previous version of the app. If it was forced then I'd put my anger level somewhere around "pissed off ranting on facebook", which is at least better I suppose than "petrol bombing downing street" if the earlier version had been forced.
I've just installed it and it's saying it's still on trial and I need a unique code? Wtf?
Have I installed the correct one??
if I ruled the world, I’d force it onto everyone’s phones (much like apple did with the U2 album)
You evil, heartless bastard!
Anyway, downloaded it this morning, just had two Apache gunships do a slow circle over the village.
Makes you think.....
the fruit and veg isle
Oooh! I want to live there.
Cheers Johndoh that makes sense, I was wondering what benefit it would give me and I would give back to the system which you have answered. I imagined I would be adding lots of unnecessary data to the system.
I have a reasonable chance of getting Covid but it will come via my daughter and her school movements which are not covered by this system.