[Closed] The bristol murderer?

He's not been convicted yet so he's not a murderer technically
No idea why it takes so long though,

It does seem a long time but I guess they would want a watertight case for something as serious as murder. He's in remand so he ain't going anywhere, although it's kinda rough if he's found to be innocent.

I'm guessing that this a a very complex case based on a lot of forensic evidence, that will take time to collate and for the CPS that to ensure it's water tight, also I think there still may be someone else involved so further arrests may be in the pipeline.

Hence the thread title khani!

Hence the thread title kahni!

I knew a lad who got nicked for a bit of weed and it took four months to bring him up,Then they let him off,
I think how busy the court is matters as well, if they have loads of big cases it slows the whole process down

Ha ha busted on the edit.

Ha ha busted on the edit.

Of course murder trials used to be a lot quicker.

On 2 November 1952 Derek Bentley, a mentally retarded 19 year old kid, was arrested for a murder which he hadn't committed. On the 11th of December after just over an hour of deliberations, a jury found him guilty. He was executed on 28 January 1953. The whole process took less than 3 months.

It was one of the most monstrous miscarriages of justice in modern times. Although the one good thing that came out of it was that it helped further forge public revulsion towards state killings of individuals.

And it also provided Derek Bentley's sister Iris, the opportunity to give the world an exemplary example of unrelenting commitment to justice. It's just tragic that she wasn't able to live long enough to see the fruits of tireless campaigning.

It takes so long because the British Justice System is [u]run[/u] by self-important, inefficient f#ckers all on an hourly rate that would make most of us blush and it suits them to take their time 👿

I feel for any innocent person detained on remand 🙁

JAG +1

I appreciate the cps etc have to build their case but why is the trial of a man who's been charged with murder having to wait till october

I'm just guessing here, but perhaps it is something to do with giving his lawyers time to review the evidence against him and prepare his defence? Or do you not consider this to be important? I'd guess that there is also the matter of timetabling the courts time too.

JAG £62.35 per hour would make you blush i assume you aint a plummer or car mechanic?

gonefishin your guess is partialy right also the police may charge on the basis of raw data thet needs to be put into an evidential format and have further evidence gathering and processing to do to turn a strong case into a watertight one.

A big murder case can take from 2 weeks to a couple of months to run and strangely we don't have red judges and courtrooms just hanging arround waiting for one to come along , a slot in the court diary neds to be found within the time limits.

A mate of mine was remanded for attempted murder in the early 80's, was on remand for 6 months and when the case went to court it was kicked out in 1.5hrs and he was released. It has had a profound effect on his life, if they have the evidence and it is enough to charge him get Mr Tabac in court ASAP and let justice be done.

There are far too many rules and legal argument for it all to go through before then. He was charged and remanded, put before the court the following day simply for a remand hearing; for the Judge to decide whether TABAK should be kept in prison or released with bail conditions (if he put in a bail application). Then a week later it's back in the Magistrates Court for a hearing for them to say "this is an indictable offence only we can't deal in the MAgs court as it's far to serious send it to the Crown Court". Then depending on space but usually about 2 weeks after that it appears in Crown who accept the case. Then the Judge will ask all the various parties how long they need before the PCMH (plea and case management hearing) and various dates will be discussed for exchanging of relevant papers. PCMH happens where the plea is in, ie not-guilty then it's a case of space in the court diary, again time lines for evidence. So for example I imagine there may well be lots of computer/phone evidence to examine this can take months hence the delay and late trial date.

Most slightly less complex cases have to be heard (if on remand) within 6 months as their is a custody time limit.

Has anyone considered Mr Tabac and his legal team would want time to put their case together.

crankboy:

'JAG. £62.35 per hour would make you blush. I assume you ain't a plumber or car mechanic?'
Lost me there.
Marko

Well said Ernie.

JAG doesn't everyone feel sorry for "an innocent person on remand"?

marko jag suggested those lawyers in the case would be on an hourly rate that would make most blush . The lawyers will be legally aided and the hourly rate is likely not to exceed £62.35 . I've seen plumbers and car mechanics charged out at similar rates.

Ernie, fair point well made!
Munqe-chick, as you obviously know you're stuff regarding the law at which point does he get to plead innocent or guilty first day of Crown trial or has he already?? I'm presuming its going to be innocent otherwise he'd be in the dock now!!

wrightyson . he will get to indicate plea on 1st appearance in the crown court which is 5 days to a week after first appearance in the magistrates( in cases like this 99.9 % indicate not guilty or make no indication at that stage). He will formally enter his plea on Arraignment at the plea and case management hearing (normally two to three months after first appearance)then be adjourned to the trial date.

There you go Crankboy got there first! It's all mad though as you get cases where the defence aren't ready so they'll give them extra time, boy if the CPS aren't ready the case will get binned 😉
Crankboy are you a criminal lawyer?

munge-chick yes I'm a criminal lawyer . Round here if the cps are not ready the defence get a telling off for not getting them ready and not warning them to correct the defects in their case.

Good ... I'm hoping your prosecution 😉 or move about between the two! It's a very interesting case the Bristol murder IMO, lots of info initially and help then it's all gone quiet the minute they nick him. But then I guess we know why.

we don't have red judges and courtrooms just hanging arround waiting for one to come along , a slot in the court diary neds to be found within the time limits.

Well if that's part of the problem, then I can't see how the coalition government's announcement that they will close 140 courts - 93 magistrates' courts and 49 county courts in England and Wales, will help the situation. But maybe they don't care ? ........perish the thought.

I guess with the closure of courts, cuts in police budgets, Ministry of Justice £2 billion cut - from an annual £9 billion budget, British justice will be even slower in the future.

.

Thanks duckman and wrightyson, I've always had a fair interest in the Derek Bentley case not only because of the gross injustice involved, but also because it all happened local to me. Iris stayed living locally (I never met her though) and it was touching to see her so committed over the years to clearing her kid brother's name. She never gave up hope and would write to every new Home Secretary after they were appointed, any local newspaper which would publish her letters, etc. - even the local trade union council. She was mostly ignored until books and a film covering the case came out. Eventually 45 years later, Derek Bentley's conviction for murder was quashed, unfortunately Iris had died a few months earlier after a long illness. She had nevertheless, triumphed, and she had helped to make British justice a little fairer.

Good ... I'm hoping your prosecution or move about between the two! It's a very interesting case the Bristol murder IMO, lots of info initially and help then it's all gone quiet the minute they nick him. But then I guess we know why.

Umm, I don't, enlighten me? Please?

I don't think he has entered a plea at his second hearing.

I was recently investigating becoming a magistrate. Unfortunately the local bench arent taking any applications this year, and probably not next year too. In the email outlining the reason for this though was this extraordinary statement:

[the recession] which for the court has resulted in a noticeable reduction in prosecutions brought by the Police and the reduction in Crown Prosecution Service resources

crankboy/munqe-chick, does this make sense to you?

Umm, I don't, enlighten me? Please?

Because they got the wrong geezer toys19. This is the bloke what done it ....

[img] [/img]

I thought everyone knew that.

The trial is just a waste of time and money.

crankboy/munqe-chick, does this make sense to you?

Well it makes perfect sense to me, read my post.......it's all because of the Tory cu ts

a noticeable reduction in prosecutions brought by the Police

I mean particularly this bit ^ Ernie.

Do the police actively reduce the number of cases they present to the CPS during a recession?

Less police officers = less arrests = less cases passed to the CPS = less court cases?

a decrease of 1.7% in the number of officers is hardly the harbinger of anarchy is it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12296893

Who's talking about "the harbinger of anarchy" ?

2,500 less coppers and 140 less courts in England and Wales, and a cut of about 20% in the Justice budget, why the **** would you want to start recruiting more magistrates ?

stoner we have moved away from all minor cases going to court a lot of first or second time petty offenders who used to be a big part of the magistrates work load now get Penalty notices from the police or cautioned. that is not something i agree with .

Also in serious cases such as murder there used to be a long committal process at the magistrates court as a file was prepared by the police and crown these matters are now fast tracked to the crown court and the delay then occurs. I used to disagree with this as Defendants lost a significant degree of their rights and protections and I lost a load of money. In practice though it has proved quite effective and while I need to make money to pay my way I do accept that the justice system should not have at it's heart the enrichment of criminal lawyers.

So two possibly good reasons for the decline in magistrates court work before you consider funding cuts. I do notice that my work has seasonal peaks and troughs and always fell off as police overtime budgets ran out and picks up when police funding raises.

a noticeable reduction in prosecutions brought by the Police

Im not here for the socio-criminal arguments Ernie, I dont disagree with the police numbers etc - but what I want to know is what is the mechanism which links the recession to "a noticeable reduction in prosecutions brought by the Police"?

Do the police actively reduce the number of cases they present to the CPS during a recession?

Are budget deficits not a natural occurrence in a recession?

You are trying to apply "logic" to this government's policies ......God only knows why.

our posts crossed.
thanks CB, those were the kind of reasons floating around my head, but wasnt sure if they really were the case:
[fewer] minor cases going to court
and police, shall we call it, "determination" 😉

EDIT: I think I must have been making a hash of my question Ernie as you seem to be stuck on the policy side of it. crankboy has answered what I was actually after.

you seem to be stuck on the policy side of it. crankboy has answered what I was actually after.

You should have read all of his answer Stoner, he said at the end, quote :

[i]"I do notice that my work has seasonal peaks and troughs and always fell off as police overtime budgets ran out and picks up when police funding raises". [/i]

Less coppers + less money = less work for the courts.

So the "policy side" also comes in.

Even according to [u]you[/u] the reason given was the recession :

[i][the recession] which for the court has resulted in a noticeable reduction in prosecutions brought by the Police and the reduction in Crown Prosecution Service resources[/i]

Ernie - what has the closure of County courts got to do with the enforcement of the criminal justice system?

Want to free up County Court time? simple, make parental contact with children post separation a (rebuttable) presumption in law and enforce it, job jobbed, you could close half the CC in the country tomorrow!

Even according to you the reason given was the recession

for donkey scrotum's sake Ernie! That's a circular argument!

I was asking what the mechanism was for the reduction the number of cases getting to the CPS. Numbers of coppers has only fallen a tiny amount so I cant believe that that is the main reason...and so it seems to be as crankboy has illustrated.

Numbers of coppers has only fallen a tiny amount so I cant believe that that is the main reason...and so it seems to be as crankboy has illustrated.

(I didn't think they had fallen at all - yet)

But you're ignoring some of crankboy's post - you're just latching on to the bits you want to hear. He said that he notices the level of his work drops when 'police overtime budgets run out'. Clearly the amount of coppers actually working, affects the level of work the courts have.

I look forward to you responding, so that the circular pattern of this argument continues.

EDIT : maybe we should break the circle. Of course I accept that other reasons might apply (such as a general cut in justice spending, different procedures etc) but you appeared to completely dismiss "policy".

EDIT : maybe we should break the circle.

thank god for that. this dance was making me dizzy.... 😉

Like anything there will be a variety of reasons why the court has less defendants put in front of it. As Crankboy already mentioned with the introductino of fixed penalty tickets (which for certain offences I also disagree with). Police budgets will affect it, there are also just general trends in crime patterns. so burglaries increase int he summer because people leave their windows open etc etc

I think the government are scaremongering a bit about numbers of officers, I don't think the country will notice much of a drop in numbers of officers.