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As a shop we apparently have to have a piece of paper saying that our waste is disposed of by a licenced operator.
We now have jumped up shits wearing stab vests with ENFORCEMENT written across the back. They are also provided with shiny badges to show how important they are and a camera to record all thats going on.
Yesterday's one swaggered into the shop like he just got off a huey in Nam.
Shops in the village without licences were given £300 fines.
Can I refuse them entry to my shop, do they have the right to go on private property and inspect people's rubbish?
a ‘piece of paper’ would just be a receipt wouldn’t it?
So, lawbreakers fined?
Sorry, what's the problem?
Perhaps a less aggressive approach would remove the need of a stab-vest.
A PDF from your waste carrier is the environmentally friendly way of doing it, and it's instantly sent by your contractor - so you can forward it on to whoever needs to see it. Easy.
Next time you're out on a ride and someone's blocked a lane by fly-tiping, that's why.
Sorry, what’s the problem?
Officious otherwise unemployable knuckledraggers pretending to be police & intimidating shopkeepers. It's the wrong way to do it.
Officious otherwise unemployable knuckledraggers pretending to be police & intimidating shopkeepers. It’s the wrong way to do it.
Shops in the village without licences were given £300 fines.
It seems like any previous approaches had been unsuccessful
Officious otherwise unemployable knuckledraggers pretending to be police & intimidating shopkeepers. It’s the wrong way to do it.
Doesn't showing them your necessary piece of paper get rid of them?
Next up, the parking police. Those horrible people who tell others selfishly parked on double yellows to move it.
Doesn’t showing them your necessary piece of paper get rid of them?
Yes it does.
Considering the real police dont have the right to stop me or demand papers his attitude really ****ed me off.
If I can **** him off in return I would really like to do it.
Other council employees are dressed in civies ,have a clip board and are nice people.
They could just link a business rates account to a waste disposal contract electronically & not bother with the bit in between? Seriously though, the growth in the utilisation of the bestabvested mouth breather in this country is bizarre. Totally the wrong message and sets people off on the wrong foot. The vogon approach to societal compliance.
If I can **** him off in return I would really like to do it.
Hope that doesn't start with a w?
Yes it does.
Considering the real police dont have the right to stop me or demand papers his attitude really * me off.
If I can * him off in return I would really like to do it.
Other council employees are dressed in civies ,have a clip board and are nice people.
Do it! Pretty sure under GDPR you can request the body worn cam footage? I can understand it may be a tough job if you've got some people determined to avoid their responsibilities around waste, but surely it should be a simple case of 'hello sir, do you have your waste paperwork please? Yes, here it is. Thank you, have a good day'.
Officious otherwise unemployable knuckledraggers pretending to be police & intimidating shopkeepers. It’s the wrong way to do it.
Perhaps but the tone of the OP shows you the sort of response they get so you can see how the council end up employing the sort of people who are not put off by a "robust rebuttal"!
As a shop we apparently have to have a piece of paper saying that our waste is disposed of by a licenced operator.
Its not because you are a shop, its because you are a commercial operation. All businesses have to dispose of their waste properly and have the paperwork to prove it. Its not new rules they've been like that for probably at least 15 years. Any professional waste disposal firm will be giving you a waste transfer note (or whatever the bit of paper is called). You do pay someone to collect your rubbish not just stick it in the public bins on the street? Presumably, the enforcement officers are paying attention to your street because they believe there is a problem: fly tipping, over use of public bins, or most often round here one conscientious business getting its bins filled by the neighbours.
They are also provided with shiny badges to show how important they are and a camera to record all thats going on.
I think the shiny badges are to prove their identity, and likely that they have been appointed with the delegated powers of the local authority (or EA) to enforce this and the camera whilst gathering evidence and protecting them also offers you some protection against what you did or did not say (or if they did or did not provide PACE warnings etc that might be required).
Can I refuse them entry to my shop, do they have the right to go on private property and inspect people’s rubbish?
They have a right in law to demand to see transfer notes for up to 2 years after your bins were emptied! Without looking up the legislation I'm not certain they have a right to enter your premises to inspect rubbish, but I'd be surprised if they didn't have pretty wide-reaching powers because a lot of the people they deal with are scrappies etc and they will need to be suitably equipped to deal with them!
Now i'm surprised if on a first visit to a shopkeeper who pays for bin collection but perhaps hadn't got the transfer note paperwork quite right that they would issue a fine rather than an enforcement notice (or advice) but of course there will be an attitude test involved. They could take to you to court, and I think prohibition notices could potentially shut you down until you fix the problem.
Unlicensed waste disposal is a fairly sizable, valuable, organised criminal operation. The people who the shopkeepers in the village are paying instead of using licensed operators (if they don't have the paperwork to show the waste is being disposed of legally) are not nice people - theres links to people trafficking, weapons and drugs. There's significant vested interests that these unpleasant people will seek to protect so I think the job of enforcing licensing may well get a bit dicey from time to time. The OP feeling intimidated by someone else's need to wear protective clothing is bizarre attitude to take- you can't hurt someone with a stab vest - what on earth are you worried about - a person wears one because your job might put you in harms way. It's like getting upset at wicket keepers for wearing gloves or angry at bus drivers for wearing a seatbelt.
Considering the real police dont have the right to stop me or demand papers his attitude really * me off.
If I can * him off in return I would really like to do it.
Often the same power applies to a constable. Is it him or his employers you want to piss off? He's just doing the job he's paid to do. There probably is a different way to do that job but its not necessarily his decision - presumably he didn't buy the stabvest etc himself.
Do it! Pretty sure under GDPR you can request the body worn cam footage?
It may be exempt as it is for Law Enforcement Purposes!
Other council employees are dressed in civies ,have a clip board and are nice people.
They definitely are not all nice. I wouldn't draw a correlation to their dress.
So, do you have transfer notices from a licenced waste carrier? I'm intrigued.
My dad was an environmental health officer and he had powers of entry to pretty much anywhere. A quick google says 'at reasonable hours'. He had tales of refusals that were very quickly reversed with police presence.
I'm not sure if any of those powers have been transferred to the 'bin police' but you shouldnt have an issue if you are paying a licenced waste disposal company surely.
If I can **** him off in return I would really like to do it.
Hope that doesn’t start with a w?
Yes we do, and the council already have a copy of it.
Glad to hear this discussion's got a happy ending.
Was hoping this thread would help me understand why my neighbour walks around in the middle of the night hiding his rubbish in other peoples wheelie bins. It’s not a problem but it baffles me, surely it’s easier just to put it in your own one then take it out
I could ask him but he’s a total cock and denies anything you accuse him of, even if you catch him doing it
You have a responsibility to ensure that not only is your waste transported by an individual (or company) with a waste carriers license, but also that it is being transported to a site suitably permitted to accept that waste. It is your responsibility to ensure that the waste is appropriately classified.
The fly-tipped waste you are complain about comes from people and organisations failing to do this, it happens on an industrial scale and is only likely to get worse in future. Depending on where they are from LA or EA will depend on their remit. But given you are required to be able to demonstrate compliance over a period of time for all waste movements you probably don't want to get pissy unless you are REALLY confident you can comply with your legal responsibilities.
Are you sure you’re not being Auditored?
Really? There's going to be a film too?
Environment Agency waste enforcement officers visit sites that you DO need a stab vest and camera for on a daily basis. I'm sure it was overkill for your shop but that may not be the only place being visited that day and they don't know that do they.
Maybe the individual was being a dick, but it's not really the fault of the stab vest and the camera is it?
Zippy - there were 15,500 recorded incidents of fly tipping in Surrey in 12 months to May 22 which may explain the visit.
This number excludes unreported incidents which occurred on farmland and other private property.
The officers have no choice in what the uniform is and whether or not they wear it; they don't decide which businesses to visit.
Their visit should not be of any concern to a business owner who is compliant with the regs.
If your concern is about their attitude, talk with the council about it - that includes your local councillor.
There’s going to be a film too?
Looks a bit dull from the trailers, like some French art-house crap about the daily life of an industrial estate.
if you didn’t like the way the inspector conducted himself, or if you have questions about his authority email the council. they may be able to assist
Oui oui, films comme Goddard's 'Breathless (ze stench)' et ' Contempt (pour le bureau)'.
The officers have no choice in what the uniform is and whether or not they wear it; they don’t decide which businesses to visit.
Walking into any premise they won't know which shopkeeper will stab them resulting them not going home to their families.
I think at the outset, businesses should be treated as 'innocent until proven guilty' and a bit of politeness goes a low way. I've always been a fan of education and inclusion when speaking to people about waste...
However, the mafia and organised crime have infiltrated the UK waste disposal industry. There is a lot of money to be made from mishandling toxic waste. I have personally worked on a site which took thousands of tons of illegal waste and cost a fortune to clean up. The tenant (guilty party) fled the country...
Remember that, next time someone offers to 'clear up your asbestos' for £50!
I’ve had to display a permit on my commercial refuse for about 10 years.
Edit - and anything not picked up by the council needs to go via someone with a waste transfer license. Saves flytipping.
<p style="text-align: left;">I for one welcome our bin police overlords</p>
So, do you have transfer notices from a licenced waste carrier? I’m intrigued.
zippykonaFull Member
Yes we do, and the council already have a copy of it.
Shouldn't be an 'it' - you need one every time your commercial waste is collected. Should be a 'them'.
It's your responsibility to keep them (for 2 years as above) and to show it to an enforcement officer from your local council or the Environment Agency if asked.
Do it! Pretty sure under GDPR you can request the body worn cam footage?
It may be exempt as it is for Law Enforcement Purposes!
While the bin police will have some processing under section 3 of the DPA 2018 (The old Law Enforcement Directive) I'm not sure the body cams would come under that as the enforcement powers the bin police have for bin related crime. The cameras aren't for recording evidence of bin crime. Instead I think the cameras would come under section 2 (GDPR). In any case you can make a subject access request, they can then give you their reasons for an exemption, and you can also ask for the privacy notice and DPIA. You might need to dust off the FOI act for the last two.
Yes we do, and the council already have a copy of it.
So... I'm not seeing the issue here.
"The council has our paperwork. ****ity bye!"
Maybe it was a compliance check rather then a permit check?
I.e. a business may be producing more waste than anticipated and be reluctant to pay for an extra collection every week, and so might choose to dispose of said waste via the back door.
I'm of course not suggesting that a fine establishment such as the OP's shop would ever do anything like that, but it's certainly not unheard of, for certain less scrupulous operators?
I’d say the OP’s issue is more with the gung-ho attitude of the Enforcement Officer rather than the licence / receipts etc.
Sounds like the bellend of a Bailiff I had the displeasure of meeting at a company I used to work for, who were in the process of being wound up.
I was in the office by myself when he rolled in spouting he was taking control of all the equipment in there as well as the workshop. I merely pointed out he couldn’t do that and he went off on what I can only describe as a “mental”, telling me how he had this power and that power blah blah blah.
Changed his tune when I pulled out a copy of another bailiffs paperwork who had already seized everything the day before.
Why didn’t you tell me that when I first got here.
Well I would have , if you hadn’t come in with your mightier than thou attitude mate !
Oh how I laughed 🤦♂️
Revs has it.
We have visits from the Vatman (it’s normally a lady) they have some serious authority and can do us far more trouble than the bin police.
They come in , are civil, not dressed up ready for Iraq and do their job.
Trading standards,ditto.
Dressing young men up in paramilitary clothing and giving them a shiny badge ( what’s wrong with a laminated id card on a lanyard?) can result in the kind of bellend we had this week.
He came in last week to inform us that he was coming in this week. I offered to show him our licence at that time but he said that he was only there to “serve notice” that he needs to see our licence.
We’ve had our shop longer than that little prick has been alive. We are the traders liaison with the cops, the local mp big ups us in the H.O.C.
I bet he watches Black Hawk Down before every sortie into the badlands of Surrey.
Sounds like you and Enforcement Guy deserve each other. I smell a romantic comedy in the making!
Do it! Pretty sure under GDPR you can request the body worn cam footage?
Yeah? And then what? 🤣🤣🤣
So, mr zip, your irritation is with the attitude of the 'enforcement officer'; nothing to do with the process or rationale for 'enforcement visits'.
If that's correct, contact your council/councillor - as I suggested in earlier post.
You haven't said much - if anything - about other local traders who've been fined for
non-compliance with the regs; they're directly responsible for your visit.
If there was no suspicion of non-compliance in Epsom (?) you may not have been subject to an ignorant/arrogant attitude.
You say you are 'trader's liaison' so liaise with non-compliant traders who are directly responsible for this.
I think the OP only needs one waste transfer note if the same waste - covers a 12 month period. A receipt might be provided for each collection.
I think with all of this,
People have jobs to do. Fair. But if you're going to be a bellend about it, hold my beer because I am certainly better at being an absolute bellend than you are.
People have jobs to do. Fair. But if you’re going to be a bellend about it, hold my beer because I am certainly better at being an absolute bellend than you are.
Was that what you said at the job interview to become a local authority enforcement officer? What zippy (and I suspect you) are not seeing is that whilst there’s probably a better way of approaching compliant traders there’s also potentially a better way of dealing with jumped up officials. I’m pretty sure the enforcement officer isn’t ranting three days later about the gift shop nobhead so who’s really winning here - the person who did his job and went home, or the person who was compliant but got angry he was asked about it because of the PPE/uniform that person was wearing and is still discussing days later!
if you really want to be angry, be angry that he has to go “dressed for Iraq” because some people are aggressive knobs to someone on little more than minimum wage paid to stop fly tipping and dog shit being left on the pavement or be angry that a little laminated ID card was not enough for some people to treat him seriously and the council found it necessary to make him look more like “law enforcement” than a man with a clipboard. Those issues aren’t his, they aren’t even really the councils - they are societal problems.
zippykona
Full Member
Yes we do, and the council already have a copy of it.
You can't discharge your duty of care like that, as a commercial organisation the Council aren't the regulating authority so them having copies means squat. They might be your collection company (which should mean they are squeaky clean) but you still need to retain all relevant paperwork.
Was that what you said at the job interview to become a local authority enforcement officer? What zippy (and I suspect you) are not seeing is that whilst there’s probably a better way of approaching compliant traders there’s also potentially a better way of dealing with jumped up officials.
I take your point (and I agree with you), but I'm not sure as it negates mine. If jumped-up officials don't want to be met with negativity, perhaps they could concentrate more on the "official" part rather than the "jumped up" bit? They must get training, right?
Rolling over to a **** just empowers them to be bigger ****s, and I have a zero tolerance policy for bullies.
It turns out that they are not even council staff but a private company called Kingdom.
Does the shop contain any sharp or pointy objects ?
If not maybe you can display a sign in the window to say "no sharp, pointy or potentially dangerous or harmful sprouts are kept on the premises".
FWIW, the owner of my last corner shop in the UK really *would* have stabbed someone. Nasty violent little thug, used to knock his wife and kids about and ended up in prison for fraud and various tax offences.
Council Stazi. Cant stand their jumped up officiousness.
Thankfully they have no power to detain or search or do anything the actual law can, though they dress the way they do in an attempt to hoodwink you into thinking they have.
The 'litter' or cigarette police like to hang around bus stops at rush hour looking catch anyone who dares dispose of a fag end in the gutter when their bus suddenly turns up and the only council ashtray is conveniently 50m away.
Appreciate the annoyance and inconvienience the enforcment is creating. However, businesses inappropriately dumping their waste is a significant cost and inconvenience to Councils and Residents so I do understand why Councils need to do some enforcement.
The ‘litter’ or cigarette police like to hang around bus stops at rush hour looking catch anyone who dares dispose of a fag end in the gutter when their bus suddenly turns up and the only council ashtray is conveniently 50m away.
I'd gladly vote for execution on sight for anyone dropping a fag end or litter
The ‘litter’ or cigarette police like to hang around bus stops at rush hour looking catch anyone who dares dispose of a fag end in the gutter when their bus suddenly turns up and the only council ashtray is conveniently 50m away
Quite right, dirty entitled bastards.
Thankfully they have no power to detain or search or do anything the actual law can, though they dress the way they do in an attempt to hoodwink you into thinking they have.
They also have a hotline to the nearest police station and they can insist that you give your name and address and can detain you (usually on breach of the peace terms).
You are a non violent entrepreneur who has outsourced his security without knowing it, and now complain when it becomes visible. Just like Elon.
https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1579124072390463488?lang=en