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Awesome photo article of Camp Bastion in Afghanistan, built and designed by UK Works Group Royal Engineers.
[url= http://cryptome.org/2012-info/camp-bastion/camp-bastion.htm ]Camp Bastion Article[/url]
Yep, it's certainly looks awesome. Which probably goes some way in explaining why many Afghans appear to feel less than happy about a rich foreign nation flexing their imperial muscles, thousands of miles away in their country.
many Afghans appear to feel less than happy about a rich foreign nation flexing their imperial muscles
Far more Afghans - particularly the young girls - are very happy at their ability to attend a school and have more hope for their future. Many are happy to live their lives without extremist factions delivering summary executions for what they see as religious crimes. They are the minority, just more vocal and active.
Despite my belief that the mission was flawed from the start, I support the individuals on the ground. Camp Bastion should have been far better designed, built and managed. It is massive and terribly thought out and run.
Afghanistan wasn't occupied to protect womens' rights.
Well if you like helicopters and metal boxes you will love that article
Oops, and there is me thinking it was awesome... But when I see Chinooks I loose all my better judgement !
Far more Afghans - particularly the young girls - are very happy at their ability to attend a school and have more hope for their future. Many are happy to live their lives without extremist factions delivering summary executions for what they see as religious crimes.
We didn't seem to be very bothered about that when we were financing, arming, and training Al Qaeda, to overthrow the Afghan government under President Najibullah. In fact we claimed that the Afghans [i]"ancient way of life[/i]" was under threat, when for example, we attempted to justify Mujahideen's targeting of schools which taught girls.
For that reason I think we can safely assume that ohnohesback's comment is more truthful.
ernie - you know those two comments aren't mutually exclusive, right?
As for the article, an awful lot of US hardware there...
I was just showing there were some good things coming out of the situation. Or are we back to your point being the only valid one? My point does not invalidate yours and the original reasons for being there do not negate mine.
You are right tootall. It's just a great shame that its an incidental element of a bigger picture that isn't humanitarian in the slightest.
Why does Google maps show military installations like this? You can take the concept of freedom of information too far, especially when it threatens lives.
Why would it matter if google showed where it is? It's not a secret compound and it's not that difficult to find given the size of it, and the shear number of trucks delivering stuff there and general traffic going back and forth
I was just showing there were some good things coming out of the situation. Or are we back to your point being the only valid one?
And I was just showing the hypocrisy of Britain now fighting the monster which it helped to create. Or is your point the only valid one ?
To be honest those pictures makes me feel ashamed - have a look at how most Afghan people live, compare and contrast. And don't try and tell me that the occupation is purposed in any way to help the people of Afghanistan.
🙁
You can take the concept of freedom of information too far, especially when it threatens lives.
I think the bit that threatens lives is the bit where disingenuous, imperialistic wars are contrived - not the bit where freedom of information is allowed.
You can get a good look at Credenhill on google maps but not necker island. I wonder if it's a coincidence that Mr Branson is bessies with Mr Google?
You can get a good look at Credenhill on google maps but not necker island
Nae streetview though 🙂
mega - Member
To be honest those pictures makes me feel ashamed - have a look at how most Afghan people live, compare and contrast. And don't try and tell me that the occupation is purposed in any way to help the people of Afghanistan.
Mate, if it makes you feel any better, the bulk of the troops that actually do the fighting are living in tiny little PBs that are much, much worse than Bastion and a lot more like what the locals have.
To be honest those pictures makes me feel ashamed - have a look at how most Afghan people live, compare and contrast.
British army/Royal Engineers in "build good base" shocker. Should it be a bit shabbier? You do understand that the military have a bit of a thing for neatness don't you?
trying not to get drawn in...but it boils my blood
It shouldn't be there at all
West needs oil
The meddling in middle east to ensure that supply caused instability in the region
Afghanistan is the source of a lot of the instability and a
West is there to quash instability and keep the oil flowing
I can understand a lot of people in the middle east for hating Western foreign policy
Hearts and minds my arse.
I can't understand how can anyone who calls themselves British can be proud of that base in Afghanistan.
I'm proud of the people that serve there. The policy that leads them to be there is outside my control, but I support the efforts of the troops there wholeheartedly.
I'm proud of the people that serve there. The policy that leads them to be there is outside my control, but I support the efforts of the troops there wholeheartedly.
How do you differentiate? Seriously.
I see our troops as the sharp instrument at the end of an arm. I'm not entirely sure how to support the end results if I disagree with the reasoning behind it.
I try to. I guess I look on our troops as ordinary men and women thrust into a difficult situation and doing the absolute best they can.
I'm proud of the people that serve there. The policy that leads them to be there is outside my control, but I support the efforts of the troops there wholeheartedly.
+1. The fact that we're there is due to the electorate not the military.
Pretty exciting photos if you like pebbles and shipping containers.
The policy that leads them to be there is outside my control, but I support the efforts of the troops there wholeheartedly.
Why? It's not like anyone who has enlisted or re-enlisted in the last twelve years (which is, presumably, most of them) hasn't known they'd be sent to Afghanistan.
konabunny - Member
"The policy that leads them to be there is outside my control, but I support the efforts of the troops there wholeheartedly."Why? It's not like anyone who has enlisted or re-enlisted in the last twelve years (which is, presumably, most of them) hasn't known they'd be sent to Afghanistan.
+1
konabunny - Member
"The policy that leads them to be there is outside my control, but I support the efforts of the troops there wholeheartedly."Why? It's not like anyone who has enlisted or re-enlisted in the last twelve years (which is, presumably, most of them) hasn't known they'd be sent to Afghanistan.
So?
They're only doing what we (the voters) have sent them to.
So?
They're only doing what we (the voters) have sent them to.
If only that was true.
How is it not?
We/I/you vote for a party, effectively saying "we trust you to run the country and make decisions for us". If that party makes poor decisions, then it's our fault for voting for them. Maybe voting them in once could be blamed on politicians abusing our trust, but re-electing them once or twice after starting a war is our own doing.
How many times am I going to re-write this after thinking about what I've just written??
That's a bit like asking why people smoke if they have known for the last thirty years that it gives you cancer. People smoke for any number of reasons and still start smoking today.
I think there are going to be any number of reasons why people sign up and go out there. Some might be doing it to try and make it a country that would allow people to live in peace and without oppression for once in fifty years. Some might be doing it for the money or because they like a scrap. Some might be doing it because they don't want to let their mates down. I went (albeit for only a short time) because I had a job to do.
I support them because it's a difficult job that leaves them, irrespective of their motives or the motives of the executive, at the sharp end. They risk their lives for _us_ and people will sometimes hate them for being there when they disagree with why they are there. I support them because they support me.
It's difficult to explain really.
So?
They're only doing what we (the voters) have sent them to.
Well, leaving aside the other bit, if they didn't want to be involved in Afghanistan, they didn't have to join up or re-enlist. Soldiers are just as smart as the electorate generally. They've made a choice to do what they do. Why are you trying to make them out to be dumb cattle?
Why are you trying to make them out to be dumb cattle?
😆
You can take the concept of freedom of information too far, especially when it threatens lives.
'They' know it is there. 'They' can see it easier than 'they' can view Google.
How is it not?
We/I/you vote for a party, effectively saying "we trust you to run the country and make decisions for us". If that party makes poor decisions, then it's our fault for voting for them. Maybe voting them in once could be blamed on politicians abusing our trust, but re-electing them once or twice after starting a war is our own doing.
Do we? I don't think either the Tories or Labour were elected on the basis that invading a sandy country where we had no business was going to be an election winner. And both were pro war and the only credible winners so I'd say the electorate's ability to make a difference was limited to say the least.
[b]irrespective of their motives[/b] or the motives of the executive, at the sharp end. [b]They risk their lives for _us_[/b]
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Do we? I don't think either the Tories or Labour were elected on the basis that invading a sandy country where we had no business was going to be an election winner. And both were pro war and the only credible winners so I'd say the electorate's ability to make a difference was limited to say the least.
I wasn't suggesting that anyone voted in favour of war! I will say that re-electing the mob that started it probably sent a message that we weren't too bothered about it though (regardless of what the other mab were saying).
UK politics is in really deep shit isn't it? If the main 2 parties agree on something, we are absolutely powerless to stop it no matter how crap an idea it is. And they're both a bunch of dicks. Oh dear.
And how many uk service personnel have been killed or maimed 'in our name' during the past 10 years?
I reckon a referendum on the issue at any time would have seen the troops back home too.
Oh dear indeed.
And how many uk service personnel have been killed or maimed 'in our name' during the past 10 years?I reckon a referendum on the issue at any time would have seen the troops back home too.
Oh dear indeed.
100%
Konabunny,
Fair enough.
we were financing, arming, and training Al Qaeda,
No, we* financed the Afghan Mujahideen whose victory paved the way for the Taliban who invited Al Qaeda to Afghanistan.
* The CIA actually, so not directly accountable to the British electorate...or the US one for that matter.
Some cracking photos.
If you join the Forces you may be sent to Afghanistan. Or you may not. They can't as individuals pick and choose where they are deployed (although the RAF can depening on the quality of hotel accomodation) To me there is a difference in supporting the troops as individuals doing their job and supporting the decision for them being out there and remaining there. If not, its hypocritical for example to be rescued abroad by HM Forces or even stitched up at your local A&E by a Forces nurse after falling off your bike.
No, we* financed the Afghan Mujahideen whose victory paved the way for the Taliban who invited Al Qaeda to Afghanistan.
Hehe....so a name change changes everything does it ? 🙂
Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda were financed, armed, and trained, by among other countries, the UK. They were in Afghanistan long before the Taliban came to power and were part of what was know then as the Mujahideen.
Osama bin Laden's strength and power base was built on vital support from the US and UK, without that he would have been nothing - the UK helped to build Al Qaeda's camps in Afghanistan.
Nothing at all has changed in relation to who and what the Jihadists target in Afghanistan, other than their targets now speak English instead of Russian of course. The war and the Jihadists aims are exactly the same as they always have been.
They can't as individuals pick and choose where they are deployed
But they can pick and choose whether or not to join up or re-enlist, knowing - as everyone has done for the last 10+ years - that there's a bloody good chance that they will be going to Afghanistan or Iraq.
Why should they give up their careers just because we (the govt, on our behalf) send them to do shit stuff?
There's not a lot of jobs about.
But they can pick and choose whether or not to join up or re-enlist
Whilst the choice might be as simple as that to you (lucky you) for some young people, specially in particular parts of the country, joining the army is the only realistic alternative to unemployment.
I know of one person, who incidentally posts on here, who received opportunities in terms of training, skills, and employment, as a result of joining the army, that he would otherwise never have received. This doesn't prove that he was happy to serve or die in Afghanistan.
I know of one person, who incidentally posts on here, who received opportunities in terms of training, skills, and employment, as a result of joining the army, that he would otherwise never have received.
Is that me?
Sounds like me.
Why should they give up their careers just because we (the govt, on our behalf) send them to do shit stuff?
There's not a lot of jobs about.
Does this defence work in court for following all orders
I am sure many did not want to be there but they still have a choice all be it a difficult one.
There has always been a WAR on somewhere in the world. Always has been and always will be, from the beginning until the end. Accept it.
There has always been a WAR on somewhere in the world. Always has been and always will be, from the beginning until the end. Accept it.
That's the spirit.
Is that me?
Sounds like me.
No it wasn't you that I had in mind. But as what I described is fairly typical, then I guess that description could apply to many.
Awesome? I assure you it loses its allure after 8 months or so! Great pictures though. Apparently some bits of Afghanistan are beautiful, but in true British style, we built our base in a god-forsaken dust bowl!
If they didnt volunteer to do it you could be made to do it. Conscription anyone?
So if no one signed up in the last ten years what would be the implications for our Defence or peace keeping and humanitarian duties?
So if no one signed up in the last ten years what would be the implications for our Defence or peace keeping and humanitarian duties?
We might be forced to spend time finding genuine solutions to problems rather than using force to get our way?
Why should they give up their careers just because we (the govt, on our behalf) send them to do shit stuff?
There's not a lot of jobs about.
It has been clear enough what they would be doing - what their "efforts" would be directed at - for more than a decade. You can't suggest that their current position being in Afghanistan is nothing to do with their decision to join or re-enlist at a time when it was pretty much guaranteed that they would be sent there for some time during their service. (By the way, you're saying what they're doing is shit, not me).
It's like taking a job at an PR company which you know works (and has worked for a decade, and has no intention to stop working) for tobacco companies, and then pretending that your job representing tobacco companies has nothing to do with your own choices. If you didn't want to work for fags companies, you shouldn't have taken or stayed in the job knowing it involves working for fags companies. On the other hand, if you think that everyone's entitled to make their decision about whether to have a smoke or not, and that tobacco companies are entitled to engage with the public in a legal and ethical manner, then there's not a conflict.
Finding genuine solutions other than force is a lovely idea. But every single country on earth need to do it at the same time. And that will never happen.
Finding genuine solutions other than force is a lovely idea. But every single country on earth need to do it at the same time
most of the world seems to do it just fine. it's usually the uk and usa that struggles with the concept.
The camp is an awesome sight, i've got no problem with US and UK foreign policy myself....i like being able to put petrol in my car and motorbike without it being so scarce i'm left wondering where i'm going to get any from.
Shame for the indigenous population but humanity has always fought among itself for various reasons....conserving our comfortable way of life in the west seems as good a reason as any in my opinion.
Rather looking forward to when it all kicks off in Argentina again, nothing finer than the sight of British ships off to do battle in foreign lands, puts Johnny foreigner in his place and a lump in your throat.
Most of the world doing a fine job my arse. Africa is a mess for starters, South America run by dictators and cartels.
And we come back to HM Forces peace keeping, aid work, drug enforcement etc
Most of the world doing a fine job my arse. Africa is a mess for starters, South America run by dictators and cartels.
which is precisely the kind of myopic worldview which generally assures british govts that they can exercise aggresive foreign policies without too much static from their own electorate.
Most of the world doing a fine job my arse. Africa is a mess for starters, South America run by dictators and cartels, Asia's ridiculously corrupt, Europe's economy is going down the pan and the US is potentially about to elect an imbecile
FTFY 😉
the US is potentially about to elect an imbecile
given the breeding stock, anything else is a statistical impossibility
most of the world seems to do it just fine. it's usually the uk and usa that struggles with the concept.
Come on now, that's not even remotely true.
South America run by dictators and cartels.
I take it current affairs isn't your strong point ? US neo-colonialism has long been in retreat in South America, and Washington can no longer impose dictatorships which will fight 'dirty wars' against their own people to satisfy the needs of US companies. Among other things the result of this is growing economies and falling unemployment.
.
And for you konabunny, since you appear to be relying on that old right-wing Norman Tebbit type argument if you don't have a job then get on bike and find one, with your rambling nonsense about tobacco companies :
[url= http://www.channel4.com/news/youth-unemployment-passes-the-million-mark ]Youth unemployment passes the one million mark[/url]
"[i]Youth unemployment has reached [u]a record high[/u] of 1.02 million[/i]"
Come on now, that's not even remotely true.
You think it's [i]not even remotely true[/i] that most countries manage to find "genuine solutions other than force" to deal with problems ?
I think you'll find that there's some truth in trailmonkey's comment.
Come on now, that's not even remotely true.You think it's not even remotely true that most countries manage to find "genuine solutions other than force" to deal with problems ?
No, it is true. They do. So do we, most of the time. Do we invade every country that irritates us? I think the OP's point was that the West are far from being the only ones willing to use force to meet our foreign policy objectives. It's just that we're currently the best at it. The emerging economies, BRIC nations etc, are working hard on it and catching up fast. So we're not in some kind of uniquely amoral position, in fact I think that as genuine democracies we are far more restrained and ethical in our use of force than most others.
Depends on the problems, but the fact that we've had considerable armed conflict in Europe, Africa, Asia (not including the US led efforts) in the last 20 years and plenty more brewing says that everyone struggles not to have a scrap when they get on each others tits in a major way.
We're no more "enlightened"today than we were 50 years ago.