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I was arguing with my 14 year old daughter that the Berlin wall cut through Berlin dividing East Germany from West Germany. She said that Berlin was fully inside East Germany and she was correct. In fact the Berlin wall was a perimeter wall fully enclosing West Berlin like a small island 100 miles inside of East Germany.
I can't believe I had such a massive gap in my general knowledge and it's blown my mind. Please, somebody put their hands up and say me too !
That’s why the Berlin Airlift into Templehof was so critical. The Soviets could close all the land links into Berlin whenever they wanted to. The Airlift had to succeed to demonstrate that it didn’t matter, it could be held and supplied.
I'll put my hands up and say I'm surprised someone didn't know this. Thought it was pretty common knowledge. There was a wall/fence between east and west Germany too.
In my defence I went to a rubbish school in the 80's and modern history was not taught at all. Both of my teenage kids new this from school history lessons. I'm still surprised I didn't pick this up along the way though !
I think it's partly confusion created by the term Iron Curtain. In my adolescent mind that was a physical wall separating east from west.
The Iron Curtain was real enough as a physical border. The fact that it was about 100 miles West of Berlin is what surprised me !
It’s not just you, this is the first I knew of this!
As you say, history wasn’t exactly taught very well at school when I was there. There was a few bits about Romans and Greeks and that was about it. Any modern history wasn’t taught.
And to be honest, it’s not something that’s ever interested me enough as an adult to read up on.
Surely you didn't need to know History as much as Geography! Would have been fairly obvious looking at a map pre unification.
I think the clue is in the name..... The Berlin Wall.
A mate who lives in Berlin decided to ride along its path one day. Took him much longer than he expected!
IIRC West Berlin wasn’t technically part of the FRG either (though may be wrong)
IIRC West Berlin wasn’t technically part of the FRG either (though may be wrong)
Sort of. But for most day to day stuff it was effectively part of the Bundesrepublik.
Hard to believe folks were unaware of where West Berlin was and how it related to the Berlin Wall still, every day is a school day
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Berlin
In my defence I went to a rubbish school in the 80’s and modern history was not taught at all. Both of my teenage kids knew this from school history lessons.
I guess it was too recent/current being as the Cold War was still going on and the 2nd world war hadn’t ended that long ago, less than 40 years.
We were mostly taught 1st World War and older in the eighties.
On a tangent, Nicosia is fascinating if you get to go, as it’s the last divided capital city in Europe.
Other useless Berlin Wall fact is that it essentially fell by accident - DDR government were planning to relax travel rules in response to unrest, sent out a spokesman who mistakenly said it would happen immediately instead of at some unspecified point, crowds rushed the crossing points and the USSR said it wouldn’t intervene, so they had to open the gates and allow people to cross.
It only accidently fell by a few hours. The official opening of the border was supposed to be the following day when border control offices opened.
OP, I’ll put my hand up and say I also thought the same as you about the wall. It was only when I actually visited Germany in my early twenties and looked at a map, and thought “Oh, Berlin’s over there!” that I realised.
And I did geography at GCSE…
I knew, but then it didn’t come down till after i left school! Plus my dad was in the RAF and had trained for another Airlift.
The Berlin airlift is well worth an investigation. Amazing logistics and not without danger to the pilots. I can't remember the book I read on it, but the size/complexity was boggling!
On the A9 Autobahn between Munich and Berlin is a small town, Mödlareuth, known as Little Berlin. It sits on the border between Bavaria and Thüringen and was split like Berlin. Interesting place worth a stop.
GF used to study in Coburg (Prince Albert's home town)and I ended up living there for a year. It was surrounded on three sides by the Iron Curtain. On a ride through the woods you would come across concrete slabs and could find the foundations of the watch towers.
A local guy said they used to ride to the border and throw bananas and chocolate over the fence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_German_border?wprov=sfla1
Pffffft. The Berlin wall coming down was due to David Hasselhoff alone. Talk about not knowing your history!
The official opening of the border was supposed to be the following day when border control offices opened.
I’d understood (from various places including The Rest Is History TBF) that it was meant to be several months later.
Also, there’s some sort of gravel bike path down the track of the inner German border and there’s a race along it
I’ll put my hands up and say I’m surprised someone didn’t know this. Thought it was pretty common knowledge.
given many people in the U.K. would struggle to put major cities in their own country geographically in the right place on a map, and struggle to even name the 27 countries of the EU I’m not at all surprised if someone was not aware exactly where the border of a country lay in 1989 and how that relates to a city within that country. I suspect that if you gave most brits a blank map of Germany today and asked them to put a pin where Berlin is it would on average be no closer to the “right” answer than if you asked them to put a pin in Bonn. In fact, if tv show pointless is a useful judge of random people’s knowledge, I’d say you’d get < 65% who could identify modern Germany from its outline and unless there was some special clue in the question <30% who would recognise either FDR or GDR from their previous borders.
my children take great delight in telling me that everything I learned in modern studies (including Berlin Wall) is now taught in history and therefore I am basically a dinosaur. I think realistically anyone under about 50 is probably too young to have understood enough west/east Germany stuff simply by force feeding and so would need to have shown some actual interest.
'History is just one ****ing thing after another.'
I was unaware of this until i read this thread, I also thought that the Berlin Wall actually went right through, er, Berlin.
at least I’m not the only one.
Yep, I'll admit I learnt something this morning. Thought the "Iron Curtain" and the "Berlin Wall" were one and the same, so assumed it just ran through Berlin. A* in GCSE history (😇), but we didn't study that period and region. In my defence, I hadn't yet had my first birthday when the Berlin Wall fell.
I'm surprised more people didn't think the same... Or is that a self-reporting bias?
They tend to avoid most modern history on a national curriculum as it could influencal political view. When I was at school ww2 was the cut off but its probably long enough now that the cold War is in.
I’d understood (from various places including The Rest Is History TBF) that it was meant to be several months later.
There was a marvellous German TV series - Deutschland 89 - that covered this from the perspective of a fictional East German secret agent. It deals with the DDR politburo realising the game is up because Gorbachev won’t support them with sending in the tanks, and how an intention to allow controlled visits to the west turned into a free for all at the Berlin Wall because of an off the cuff response to a question on a TV interview.
I kind of knew but not sure through school, it was a bit long ago to recall the details I was taught.
I’d say it’s the way it’s taught and name, that’s not made clear of how the boundary lay.
Nice interactive map.
https://berlinwallmap.info/map
You are not alone. The number of people I have discussed that with over the years who think Im mental when I tell them it was inside E Germany.
I was unaware of this until i read this thread, I also thought that the Berlin Wall actually went right through, er, Berlin.
It did. the wall split the city roughly in two, but continued round the western half to encircle it. The convenient fact it was the West side (Its a roughly N/S split) hid the fact it was in E germany. If it had been the East side, it would be far more obvious!
I was lucky enough to visit Berlin just after the wall fell. The difference between East and West was stark and most of the wall was still in place. There was a Benetton shop and a Macdonald's that had both just opened up on the East side of the city. Also, the bit of the East that could be seen from West Berlin was like a façade. It all looked great, but behind it much of the city was in poor condition, with ruins, shoddy building work and many areas of squalor. Driving through East Germany it was amazing how many rural communities still relied on horse and cart.
I haven't visited, but I was told that the railway crossings all passed over open-structure bridges so that the GDR border guards could see if anyone was hanging on underneath.
Dunno what they did for the road crossings. Anyone??
Yep, I’ll admit I learnt something this morning. Thought the “Iron Curtain” and the “Berlin Wall” were one and the same
Me three. Not something I was ever taught. I have previously read about the Berlin airlift too, which makes much more sense now that I think of it as an island within E. Berlin...
West Berlin was quite complicated constitutionally. It was still occupied territory split into three sectors, one for each of the three allied powers, until reunification such that the three commanders-in-chief were the ultimate political power and Berliners didn't elect MPs and didn't have voting members in the West German parliament. I went to Berlin - both sides -before the wall came down.
Another good angle to look at the Cold War around Berlin is to read about BRIXMIS
This was the military liaison that allowed allied military to travel within the East German zone and they basically 'spied' on the activities of the soviet and east german forces - they got into some really crazy scrapes and unfortunately some lost their lives
some fascinating books out there from former BRIXMIS staff.
They tend to avoid most modern history on a national curriculum as it could influencal political view.
My daughters GCSE History syllabus ran up to events in Afghanistan the month she first started the course - though she did have a fantastic and politically active History teacher.
Called Mr Poland.
Who came from Ireland.
Interrailing in the 1980s we decided to go to Berlin.
What we hadn't allowed for was that the tickets didn't include east Germany. We got arrested on the train by an east German train guard and on arrival in West Berlin got marched at gun point to the ticket office.
Scary at the time. We bought return tickets!
I'm glad it's not just me then ! I've just spoken to two old mates and both of them thought the Berlin wall and the East West Germany border were the same thing. In fact they thought I was completely wrong until Google settled it.
I can remember what the school lunch options were on that day… and the feeling of excitement and hope.
The obvious next question is did the East West Germany border come down straight afterwards as effectively it was redundant ?
Dunno what they did for the road crossings. Anyone??
There were set “corridors” that you drove on – you had to check in and out – mileage was logged and you had a window of time you had to complete the journey in.
My grandfather used to live in West Berlin and worked in the embassy there (actually in E Berlin I think?).
The corridors thing is exactly what my grandparents used to tell me, and also stories about breaking down in the Ford Anglia half way across E Germany. Diplomatic papers clearly helped. Specific checkpoints at the Berlin wall too depending on nationality or reason for crossing. Probably had mirrors on sticks and every car stopped at the border anyway so easy to check for escapees.
I know that I learnt that Berlin was in East Germany at some point after I'd learnt that Berlin was split into East and West Berlin, but I don't remember how long it took me to pick up that second piece of information.
I remember being pretty surprised to learn this too - the Berlin wall came down when I was 10 so I didn't really understand it. It was in my 20's that I found out what the actual situation was.
It's also responsible for the unique culture that developed. IIRC, if you lived in West Berlin you were exempt from National Service. So all the punks, anarchists, hippies and artists moved in, squatted the old deserted buildings, and formed bands like Tangerine Dream and Einsturzende Neubaten. Which is presumably the scene that attracted the likes of Bowie and Iggy Pop in the 70s, etc, and were the same people who all opened up techno clubs in the early 90s once the wall came down and they found old bank vaults in the East to host them.
Yes, from Interrailing in the 80s you could get the train there. Also went to Berlin in the early 90s and most of it was a building site - took a bus tour to kill time and they just drove around looking at derelict frontages in the east that were being rebuilt with artists impressions of what it was going to look like. There was still a few hawkers at the Brandenburg gate flogging fake Ushanka hats and red army stuff - weird. Keep meaning to go back.
Have also done the green zone tour in Cyprus where there are still abandoned shops and houses from 1975 and armed guards either side as well as the abandoned airport.
There was a marvellous German TV series – Deutschland 89 – that covered this from the perspective of a fictional East German secret agent
It is a really good series, start with Deutschland 83 and 86 first though as they are also provide some great historical soundbites
Great thread this.
I have to say, I knew that the Berlin wall separated west from east Berlin, but I also thought this was the name given to the border that separated east from west Germany too. I've just looked it up & it was called the Inner German Border.
We visited Moedlareuth that @alpin mentioned when I worked in Helmbrechts for 6 months as part of my uni placement. This area was right near the border between the old east & west. Our tutor came over to see how we were getting on (there were two of us working there) and he asked if it would be possible to visit, as it was somewhere he had always wanted to go. It was fascinating.
Helmbrechts is quite near the old east border, and we had some friends from work who lived near Plauen which is in the old east.
Visiting them was quite the eye opener - this was in 1999 and there were lots of signs of the old east still about. The people had a very different attitude too - a lot of them liked to make the most of their 'freedom' and were very flashy. We used to to to a nightclub in Plauen but I can't remember what it was called.
I've got an old poster that I keep meaning to put up again, which I bought when visiting Berlin for a weekend. It is the iconic shot of the soldier jumping over the barb-wire to defect to the west.
This guy - Konrad Schumann
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Schumann
I did not realise that he committed suicide in 1998 suffering from depression. His relatives rejected him & saw him as a traitor.
There's a lot of fascinating and brutal history in that part of the world. I absolutely loved my short time there.
Edited to add:
Regarding Berlin being a building site - it still was very much so when we visited with the school in around '94 and again in '99. We had a competition to see who could get the most cranes in one photograph. I think I managed 17.
Also, the MD of the company I worked for was quite bitter about the amount of money he had to pay in tax, to fund the re-building of the old east. Quite a lot of the 'west' germans seemed to have a dislike of the ossi's.
I’m astonished people didn’t know this, but then I’m old enough to remember the wall coming down.
WOW! You must be ancient.
Nope, didn't know this either, and my geography is pretty good!
The history syllabus when I was at school (1997-2002) was Britain 1066-1945 in ks3, with a detour for the American Civil War and Russian Revolution. Then GCSE was the Great Depression, "Women between the wars", Soviet Russia, Chinese revolution and Communist China under Mao, I think we did pre-war Nazi Germany at some point.
We didn't touch on events like the Spanish civil war, post WW2 Europe, or even much of the wars beyond the western front, the eastern front was touched upon but only that it was a bloodbath.
I'm genuinely quite surprised at how many aren't aware. Shouldn't be as I had to spend ten minutes giving a rudimentary explanation of the history of Israel and Palestine to my wife and her friend recently, and they're both successful and intelligent women. I guess me working in a factory with little to occupy my brain allows time to ponder such things!
I did know, but it is the sort of thing that unless you’ve specifically learned it, you’re unlikely to pick up.
My grandfather used to live in West Berlin and worked in the embassy there (actually in E Berlin I think?).
The British Embassy in Berlin in those days would have been a diplomatic mission to East Germany - East Berlin being the capital of East Germany so I guess it would have been in the East. (Embassies to West Germany were in Bonn)
I was 5 months old when the Berlin Wall was built and 28 years old when it came down. You didn't learn about it in history, it was contemporary politics and geography. I can't believe there is anyone of my age with any curiosity about the world that didn't know where West Germany/East Germany/West Berlin/East Berlin lay on a map and who ran them.
I can’t believe there is anyone of my age with any curiosity about the world that didn’t know where West Germany/East Germany/West Berlin/East Berlin lay on a map and who ran them.
We all have different interests.
I've got to admit not knowing this until today! I've always conflated the Berlin wall with the border between E and W Germany. Quite why I'm not sure, given that I know exactly where Berlin is geographically and so should have been perfectly able to work it out 🤦
Nothing to do with the wall but pulling up google maps to check I actually did know where the major cities in Germany were, I see they have StreetMap _ when did that happen? Germany never used to allow it and so it was mainly blank which looked pretty weird.
Another story from the past. I was on a cadet trip to West Germany and they took us to the east west border. I can remember standing in a field next to all the fencing looking at a group of east German soldiers filming and watching us through binoculars while we did the same.
Regarding Cyprus, there have been some good programmes on the border including Simon reeve Mediterranean with Simon Reeve, www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bp2kk1 via @bbciplayer
I was born in Cyprus, army dad, left in 1966, aged 3, but never been back. I really must. Here is a photo of my dad doing what army bods do.
https://imgur.com/gallery/md4kuIA
I’m genuinely quite surprised at how many aren’t aware. Shouldn’t be as I had to spend ten minutes giving a rudimentary explanation of the history of Israel and Palestine to my wife and her friend recently
Perhaps, but inspite of probably being able to give a similar potted history of the Middle East, I don't think I could for example, draw a map of Jerusalem showing the Palestinian and Israeli controlled areas, or draw out what was West Bank and what is now occupied West Bank.
Google Streetview appeared about a year ago. With imagery maybe the year before that. For some streets around my way I could work out it was summer holidays 2022 (or might have been 2021), when they do all the maintenance on the tram lines.
I think someone eventually realised that it wasn't real time and not spying. Still quite a lot of blurred images though.
I was aware of this, having visited West Berlin as a child in the early 80's (82 I think). My Uncle was stationed out there with the British Army, and we took holiday to visit him and his family. I still remember looking out the windows of their flat across the wall into the east. It looked so depressing. I also remember being very nervous when we took a trip into the east, through Checkpoint Charlie. My Uncle had to wear full military uniform to go with us, I was told at the time, if he didn't he would be considered a spy! The sternness of the East German guards and all the guns at the checkpoint made me anxious. The thing that stood out to me as a child was the absence of colour in the east. In the west the shops had bright signs but in the east it was all very muted.
I've been back since reunification, in 2006, and it was good to see how the city had been re-united, walk through the Brandenburg Gate, and visit the Checkpoint Charlie, now as tourist attraction.
The sternness of the East German guards and all the guns at the checkpoint made me anxious.
I think they would have been Russian. Army personnel used a separate channel that was manned by Russians rather than East Germans who manned the main channel - this was also the case at Helmstedt where you entered the road corridor.
The British Embassy in Berlin in those days would have been a diplomatic mission to East Germany
Really? Being in East Berlin, the capital of East Germany (the DDR), why would it not simply be the British Embassy to the DDR?
Fascinating Fact: I once had to push a Ford Corsair through Checkpoint Charlie under the unsympathetic gaze of half a dozen unsmiling heavily armed border gurads.
I think they would have been Russian. Army personnel used a separate channel that was manned by Russians rather than East Germans who manned the main channel – this was also the case at Helmstedt where you entered the road corridor.
I was about 7 years old, I just remember finding them, and the whole experience passing through the checkpoint, very intimidating.
The thing that stood out to me as a child was the absence of colour in the east
Yes, my wife and I went on holiday (!) to several soviet block countries before re-unification and that was my strongest impression from all of them.
We went to Prague in summer 1989 when relations were thawing and a few western shops had been allowed to set up. We saw a solitary shop for Nike or Adidas lit up like a beacon amongst the gloom, literally and metaphorically.
Being in East Berlin, the capital of East Germany (the DDR), why would it not simply be the British Embassy to the DDR?
I think the point was that the only British embassy in Berlin at that point would have been the one in East Berlin. The embassy to West Germany was in Bonn. So, if working in/for an embassy in Berlin... it was in the east, as that was the only one in the city.
WOW! You must be ancient.
No need for that, especially from a mod. A large chunk of the population is under 35 so won't even have been born when the wall came down.
My dad first saw me at Checkpoint Charlie.
The Berlin Wall has been part of my life for basically all of it. But it doesn’t surprise me that people aren’t clear about the geography. It was pretty weird. And it only kind of crept up slowly - the borders were porous to start with. I remember talking to an old German lady on a train just after the wall went down. She told me how she basically would go off for little holidays out of East Germany in the early days after the war. Wriggle under some wire, or slip the border guard a bottle of booze. Then it got harder and harder as the Russians tightened their grip / the economic situation slipped behind the west. Readings of history put different emphases on these factors but basically by the time my dad realised that he needed to get out the Iron Curtain was pretty solid. It was brutal.
I spent many summer holidays crossing into the East. It was like stepping back in time. Everything was smaller, more cobbled together and more likely to fall apart. The landscape and the cities were polluted. Acid rain was affecting forests. Urban landscapes were wreathed in the sputtering outputs of two stroke engines. At one and the same time I felt the ache of the divided country, the families split apart like my own, but completely believed reunification was impossible.
I vaguely knew about it but definitely wasn't taught about it at school in the '80s. I only properly learnt about the details of the geography when working close to the old border near Wolfsburg. These old forces info videos about using the transit corridor are quite interesting:
I had no idea. I suppose it should be obvious, if it was just a line then you could walk round the end of it.
I can't say as I ever gave it a great deal of thought, History and/or Geography are not my forté. I'm wildly ignorant of a lot of things that "everyone" supposedly knows.
Only tenuously related but I 100% recommend The Spy and The Traitor by Ben MacIntyre, the Oleg Gordievsky story. Even if you have zero interest in cold war history. It's one of those true stories that if made into a film you'd think it's not credible. Nail biting page turner and all true.
Yep, I’ll admit I learnt something this morning. Thought the “Iron Curtain” and the “Berlin Wall” were one and the same
The "Zonengrenze" (East/West border) was just a couple of miles down the road from my Mum's home town of Lübeck. That's about 150 miles from Berlin. As a kid visiting I used to swim at Travemünde where the border ran across the beach and into the sea. Used to chat with the (West German) border guards. Many years later just after the border was dismantled I was able to walk along that beach into what had been East Germany.
Here's what the crossing point at Schlutup just outside Lübeck was like -
and a memorial stone there now -
Getrennt translates as separated.
it makes sense that people are confused about it. 'The Berlin Wall' wasn't just a wall splitting a city, it was a symbol of the division between West and East, capitalism and communism, democracy and totalitarianism, freedom of speech and political repression, the Cold War.
For anyone that hadn't actually been there, you can see how it would be more of an idea, than a particular item. Like the 'Iron Curtain'. Which, it turns out, wasn't actually a curtain at all! But I still kind of imagine it as one, because that's what my 7-year old brain imagined when I heard them talk about it on the news.