You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
We’re seeing a lot of shocking footage coming out of the US currently, but how representative are they of the force(s) as a whole? Many surely are good people trying to make a difference whilst running the risk daily of being shot dead after stopping someone for a speeding offence.
I should say that, although I've been mainlining police brutality videos for the last 12 days, in no way do I think that's typical of anything other than a tiny percentage of the forces over there. There are plenty of videos of police showing solidarity, which is fantadtic and genuinely heart-warming - but it's the violence that's so striking at the moment, precisely because it's coming from some of the very people that are supposed to protect the public they're beating up.
Rydster, your analysis of Windrush sounds like it was written by Trump. Have a word with yourself.
No point, he’s sat in his own little echo-chamber.
I think he’s just a really shit troll who has to have an answer for everything. A bit like an irresponsible adolescent.
Not an adolescent, a five year old who just keeps saying ‘why?’ to every answer that’s given.
About the same emotional age as Angry Tinkerbell.
He does remind me very much of a former forum member who used to indulge in much the same sort of behaviour.
Name began with J, ended with y...
He was an irritating jackass too.
TBH chewkw, and I don’t mean this in a pejorative way, unless you actually hold a doctorate in Constitutional History and you can make value judgements based on a critical analysis of David’s work, including all his written works, his lectures, his research and opinions. You views on whether he’s a good historian or not are about as valid as the fart I just let out are.
I like David Starkey historical views on the Tudor as presented on TV, in my view he is very good at his interpretation of the Tudor. Tudors are no angels put it this way and he is merely presenting information that he considers consistent with that period. Of course everyone can criticise his views or reject his interpretation but to me he is presenting another perspective to history, which is brilliant in my mind. All the other historians are merely presenting the information that are rather "soft".
Jesus Christ! Once more, this time I will type slowly, see if that works. Not all revolutions are good, some are bad. Revolutions are some time’s the only viable way forward when all other attempts at diplomacy or peace fail. They are bloody, horrific things most of the time, but can lead to positive change in the long run. There, is that better?
Majority of the revolution will end up with some form of bloodshed in order to see drastic change. My granduncle was a Cultural Revolutionist while my father fought against "revolutionists". Do you really want more bloodshed?
David Starkey made me laugh when he criticised the youth of today for affecting their speech with Ebonics. Failing to realise that the strength of the English language has been it’s adaptability and mutability. English has become the lingua franca of the world precisely because of its ability to adapt to the times and accomodate existing (foreign) words into its lexicon.
It was also very much the a case of the pot calling the kettle…. For David Starkey has perhaps the most affected voice in the Country, he sounds posher than the Queen, and that’s simply not possible. The Queen is the poshest person in the world, it’s her only job.
Yes, he interprets history with a posh accent but that does not matter to me. What matters me is his interpretation of history from another perspective.
Now I don't know how much you know about South East Asia history but a lot of the information was interpreted one sided until further interpretation/investigation came from China, India, Middle East etc (they were trading with each other in those days). It is interesting to see all the different interpretations and accounts of the events in those days. To say history can be interpreted in one perspective can only create distortion ... history has always been written by the winner of some sort.
Majority of the revolution will end up with some form of bloodshed in order to see drastic change. My granduncle was a Cultural Revolutionist while my father fought against “revolutionists”. Do you really want more bloodshed?
I.......
In fact no, I really can’t be arsed anymore. I’ve explained this about ten times now. Reread my posts or don’t. I couldn’t give a shit either way now to be honest.
All hail the killfile. 🙌
deleted
<div id="post-11233778" class="bbp-reply-header d-flex justify-content-between p-0 mb-2">
<div class="d-flex justify-content-between w-100">
<div class="bbp-reply-author d-flex align-items-center flex-wrap">chewkw
<div class="bbp-author-role"><div class="">Member</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="d-flex align-items-center"></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="p-0 loop-item-10 user-id-2665 bbp-parent-forum-180317 bbp-parent-topic-11220003 bbp-reply-position-411 odd post-11233778 reply type-reply status-publish hentry">
<div class="bbp-reply-content p-0">
deleted
i got all excited for a moment there...
</div>
</div>
Wtf...
Kryton has broken 😕
I like David Starkey blah blah blah blah blah blah on TV, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Tudor blah blah blah blah blah blah but to me he is presenting blah blah blah blah blah blah, which is brilliant in my mind.
You saw a bloke on telly who was enthusiastic about a period in history and he made it sound like a soap-opera. You've no idea whether it's in any way accurate, but he sounds posh, so you're willing to suspend your disbelief. Good for you. Sounds like a win for Starkey. Better warn you though, he's a terrible old reactionary right wing nutter with "challenging" views on immigration, so you know, you might want to bear that in mind.
Starkey has the kind of views on people who are not just like him that would make your grandparents blush
David Starkey! shit if your views on Multiculturalism and Minorities garner the support of Rod Liddle and Toby Jones then you're a racist **** in my book.
On the surface it might look like a good idea but it will not work.
Where I come from we are discriminated no ifs or buts. The authority does not even bother to hide it or to pretend to hide it put this way. For example, all civil servant jobs are totally reserved for certain race and religion. If you don’t belong to the listed race or religion your only hope is to find way to survive on your own or join the private sector. Even higher education is reserved for certain race and/or religion, with very limited quota for others. Even the quota is not met in full. We also experience race riots 1969 where many died but nothing change much until today. In my experience things are getting slightly better, slightly … I still got shouted with sarcastic remarks the last time I renewed my driving license at the council. Note that my description above is from far east.
It may not make a direct difference, but it will be a permanent reminder to Angry Tinkerbell, effectively rubbing his nose in it.
As for your second point, as others have repeatedly pointed out, demonstrations and revolutions do not always work.
Any positive changes often take place over extended periods of time. France had a bloody revolution that ultimately worked out, here in the U.K. there have been large riots that led to loss of life and massive destruction to property, which did lead to changes in time, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, riots in Bristol, the Swing riots, the Jarrow marchers, riots in Melksham...
We have a bit of a history of things kicking off due to injustices, have a read through this lot and bone up on our history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_Riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolpuddle_Martyrs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarrow_March
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_riots
The Jarrow March wasn't a riot, it was utterly peaceful with literally no theft. They were bloody starving - in the unlikely event they *had* nicked something it would have been food.
I apologise for sullying the thread with Starkey but rydsters comments could easily have come from him.
I have to say, this made me smile, there’s a whole list of things they could play; The Clash, ‘I Fought The Law’...
https://www.inputmag.com/culture/protesters-stole-nypd-radios-to-blast-breaking-the-law-by-judas-priest
People are starting to think what's happening in their own back yard. We had the French Interior minister on the news earlier talking about things have got to change in France and there is this in the Birmingham Evening Mail:
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/west-midlands-police-three-times-18368385
I suggest reading to the bottom the numbers keep coming
@outofbreath, no, but it was a protest, and there have been many others, the Tolpuddle Martyrs being another; many started as protests, just like what’s going on now, my point being that this country has had many of both over the years, it’s not just other countries who have a history of oppression.
As I thought, things are kicking off in DC, on both sides...
https://www.brooklynvegan.com/dc-mayor-has-black-lives-matters-painted-in-massive-letters-on-street-leading-to-the-white-house/
We’re seeing a lot of shocking footage coming out of the US currently, but how representative are they of the force(s) as a whole? Many surely are good people trying to make a difference whilst running the risk daily of being shot dead after stopping someone for a speeding offence.
There wouldn't be protests and demonstrations in every state if it wasn't widespread.
Also - this isn't spread evenly across everyone the police deal with. That racial element is what stands out in most all statistics I've seen.
How on earth, in 8 or 9 minutes, could the other officers not establish that Floyd was not armed and thus didn't present any threat?
It is murder.
See chewkw, scroll fast
Another look at the consequences of using ‘non-lethal’ weapons in close contact crowd situations.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/06/what-nonlethal-weapons-can-do-to-the-body-george-floyd/
Fingerbang,
You've created a verb there.
inkster - my post a couple of days ago which was directed at you was unacceptable.
It was ignorant, inappropriate and you had done nothing to deserve it.
I apologise unreservedly.
No wories frank, I didn't see it as malicious in any way.
The other thread touched on particular experiences and how sensitive they can be. Forums like this work well due to the back and forth and the subsequent demands for corroboration or confirmation. I think we're collectively finding our way through this current discourse in a way that's a little unfamiliar, and our usual modus operandi and debating tools fall short in the face of the magnitude of current events.
I have to say, this made me smile, there’s a whole list of things they could play; The Clash, ‘I Fought The Law’…
I think, under the circumstances, the Dead Kennedys version would be a better fit. Save The Clash for if it goes nipples upward.
Depressingly, many of the things the Dead Kennedy’s sang about, are still here and sometimes worse.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RexChapman/status/1269010515965116416
On a lighter note, this is great (edit - crap link)
57 NYC police officers resign in defence of their two colleagues who were fired for bravely repositioning an old gent out of the way for his own safety and security. They must be fuming, why instruct us to learn and do this stuff with this gear and then accuse us of being unfriendly? I await an intervention from the Great Orange One.
His speech yesterday will surely go down in history. What was doubly astonishing was that on a US feed I was getting the comments were maybe 50% in support. Oh lordy, you reap what you sew.
Sounds like the NYC just improved by 57 officers
Thank you for spotting that. I doubt whether the views of those 57 were much different to the rest of the force and their officers. Maybe the 57 had a variety of complaints against them already and were getting a bit toey about collars being felt.
His speech yesterday will surely go down in history. What was doubly astonishing was that on a US feed I was getting the comments were maybe 50% in support. Oh lordy, you reap what you sew.
Difficult to gauge the reality of support. The blind servile loyalty some are showing does suggest that when things are going really very badly the shouting will increase to try and compensate.
Friends in the US that have often been either supportive of Trump, or at least cynical of criticism aimed at Trump but never really been out and out “he is our god emperor, truly the greatest human ever” supporters have gone completely silent.
I’ve no real idea about what this is going to do to his long term support. On the one hand is seems completely unsustainable, on the other hand, it’s a nation where community groups have posted online with pride locals patrolling the streets with automatic weapons. As if somehow that’s a good result.
This is something to factor in when thinking about US Police
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement
For clarity, I do not know enough to know how truthful the article is being
There's a danger of the bad apples trick being employed when actually these forces are just carrying out Don's policies. Studies of canteen culture over here have not made for very cheering reading. These officers are not nasty exceptions, they all look to me to be dutifully acting in the same way as per instructions, 'I'm only doing my job'.
Posted the CNN link to this as it was live the other day for rydster to watch, so worth posting again in the thread as obviously nothing in that link any more...
Worth a watch if you haven't seen it.
Systemic, nah, never...
Piemomster,
If you're wondering about the presence of white supremacists in law enforcement, googling Bob Kroll would be a good place to start.
He is the Minneapolis police union chief. The guy that manages to get 40% of officers who have been fired for misconduct their job back.
The guy who belongs to a White nationalist motorcycle club comprised of largely Minneapolis and Chicago police officers. He himself has had complaints filed against him for wearing a 'white power patch on his motorcycle jacket. Other members of the gang wear KKK insignia, or patches saying 'here for the hanging.' Bob Kroll has 18 complaints against him personally, the first of which was for kicking a 14 year old black kid in the nuts whilst hurling racist abuse at him. The other 17 complaints? Guess.
Last year Bob Kroll was a guest speaker at a Trump rally, where after being introduced by Trump he went on to spew racist filth and call BLM terrorists.
EDIT
He has the support of over 800 of his fellow city cops. That's 800 rotten apples right there.
null
You saw a bloke on telly who was enthusiastic about a period in history and he made it sound like a soap-opera.
History is boring but Starkey makes it interesting even when some do not agree with his interpretation. What is there to stop others presenting their own versions which they have done with other historians and I like them too. e.g. Very soothing while watching Lucy Worsley.
You’ve no idea whether it’s in any way accurate, but he sounds posh, so you’re willing to suspend your disbelief. Good for you. Sounds like a win for Starkey.
History happened long time ago so it is up to the people to interpret those events. We will never know other then compare perspectives from various sources (in this case those historians) and interpretation.
Better warn you though, he’s a terrible old reactionary right wing nutter with “challenging” views on immigration, so you know, you might want to bear that in mind.
To me whether historians can be "right, left or centre whatever" is irrelevant. I just want to listen to their perspectives and I can make up my own mind. For example, where I come from a group of historical warriors were wiped out of history after they were found out to be non-indigenous but were "bodyguards" sent over to protect then fleeting ruler by the Chinese Emperor (they were trading partners). Then everyone wonders why did the strongest SE Asian empire collapse that is when things become interesting upon hearing from more historical records ... from China, India, Arabs, Europe ... Therefore, to say that history can only be interpreted by certain perspectives can be suspicious.
If you want to see a leader of American police, look up Bob Kroll.
There's your sign.
There’s a danger of the bad apples trick being employed when actually these forces are just carrying out Don’s policies
Yep, most concentration camp guards were lovely and cuddly, it was those pesky orders.
TBH chewkw, and I don’t mean this in a pejorative way, unless you actually hold a doctorate in Constitutional History and you can make value judgements based on a critical analysis of David’s work, including all his written works, his lectures, his research and opinions. You views on whether he’s a good historian or not are about as valid as the fart I just let out are.
Are you saying he should or we should become positivist?
What is going on here? Is it just Fox being selective with data in a desperate attempt to please their racist viewers (no shock there), or do US financial markets really gain after high profile racist incidents? If the latter that is sinister.
Can I ask a question? A well known British black celebrity has posted a speech/rant on Instagram which is aimed at black people. Spoken in a passionate way it aims to provide ideas to end the "white supremacist world" in which we live. Most of the advice is poignant, despite the fact I believe apply to all people not just black people (interestingly part of which was, don't get wrapped up in social media).
Now, I felt offended by that. It feels to me like sweeping generalisation and almost facist(?) and offensive to say. Did I misunderstand it? I agree that education for - mostly white - people in this context is important, but I'm not a white supremacist just because I don't have experience of the issues. It feel a bit militant to me, and feels like it could cause more hate and division solely by use of that set of words.
Am I wrong?
Kryton I think the point is that those of us who haven't seen this stuff first hand need to start looking for it and questioning how and why it occurs.
No doubt someone can put it better than that, there is lots of stuff on this on my FB feed just now.
What is going on here? Is it just Fox being selective with data in a desperate attempt to please their racist viewers (no shock there), or do US financial markets really gain after high profile racist incidents? If the latter that is sinister.
& your thoughts are?
Kryton I think the point is that those of us who haven’t seen this stuff first hand need to start looking for it and questioning how and why it occurs.
No doubt someone can put it better than that, there is lots of stuff on this on my FB feed just now.
I get that the first para. The question I'm really ask is that is the generalisation and use of "white supremacy" a little militant and offensive? e.g. maybe a little step too far, and that it could be damaging to the overall cause.
Edit: - I just talked to my - Black - wife. She agrees that language is important and a a generalisation like this needs to be met with caution. Perhaps a better way she says would be "white dominant", and "white supremacist" should be reserved for those deserved to be categorised as such.
mrlebowski
Member
What is going on here? Is it just Fox being selective with data in a desperate attempt to please their racist viewers (no shock there), or do US financial markets really gain after high profile racist incidents? If the latter that is sinister.& your thoughts are?
I really have no idea. Assuming it isn't just racist tub-thumping, does exposure of racism (and hope for it being tackled) make investors feel more positive? Does reasserting that the US is racist embolden racist investors? **** it's scary isnt it.
It's probably stock movements in weapons manufacturers/retailers
it’s scary isnt it.
Don’t over think it would be my advice. Events like these, as tumultuous as they are do not overly affect the stock markets. I certainly think it’s nothing do with ‘racist investors’ nor making other types of investor more positive.
mehr
Subscriber
It’s probably stock movements in weapons manufacturers/retailersPosted 1 minute ago
Makes sense, scared people buying more guns in anticipation of trouble. Never ceases to amaze me just how messed up the US is.
Given that there's a massive upsurge in gun sales every time there are any riots or mass shootings - so every other week - they must have reached to point now where every household owns enough firearms and ammunition to mount a successful military coup in a medium-sized country?
America is absolutely mental
What is going on here? Is it just Fox being selective with data in a desperate attempt to please their racist viewers (no shock there), or do US financial markets really gain after high profile racist incidents?
Almost certainly it's the former. Current rise is all about the opening up of the states after lockdown, would be my thinking. That's a ****ing disgusting graphic though.
Two cops were charged for pushing the old guy over, this happened when they left court
https://twitter.com/DaveGreber4/status/1269285791320223745?s=19
A 3.4% uptick in the S&P is roughly $750Bish - taking a market cap of $29T.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%26P_500_Index
The whole of the gun trade in the US is worth no more than $20B in 2019.
Put bluntly: that gain is nothing do with any increased sales of arms.
Almost certainly it’s the former.
Fox being Fox. As much part of the problem as anyone else. Fing hateful.
Fox being Fox. As much part of the problem as anyone else. Fing hateful
You could argue Fox started the current state of affairs with Cops
The folks who supply the police with MTBs has obviously got fed up with their bikes appearing in all these vids
https://twitter.com/FujiBikes/status/1268984830353694729?s=19
@mehr’s post
I kinda assumed it was people cheering that the two ****s had been charged but it’s dawning on me (I think) that that’s a bunch of other ****s showing the cops their support? Nice.
You could argue Fox started the current state of affairs with Cops
You could argue that Fox are deliberately provocative period - would be my take.
Given that there’s a massive upsurge in gun sales every time there are any riots or mass shootings – so every other week – they must have reached to point now where every household owns enough firearms and ammunition to mount a successful military coup in a medium-sized country?
It doesn't quite work like that.
The number of guns in the US is about 1:1 with the number of people in the country (or it was when I looked into this a couple of years back, it may have changed since). However, it is not an even distribution. Gun ownership by household is about 50:50 and individual gun ownership is about 1 in 3. Ergo, people who own a gun tend to own multiple guns. Amongst gun owners, only about a third only own just the one, and a third of them own five or more.
I'll bet good money that the photos we're seeing on the Internet of queues outside gun shops aren't people going "I think I'd best get me a gun," it'll be folk going "I think I'd best get me another gun."
TBH, the stock market stuff is mostly because the stock market's now insane and divorced from reality.
I have a Fuji bike, I didn't realise I'd accidentally aligned myself with the military industrial complex but phew, at least that's fixed now.
On that Fox graphic
https://twitter.com/BretBaier/status/1269296247569108993?s=19
Skynews/the usual right wing gimps showed that horse bolting and the policeman knocked out saying it was protesters pulling him off
This is what happened
https://twitter.com/poca_loco/status/1269341944733405185?s=19
I bet that f'ing hurt
Oooof!
Happened to me once on my commute home from work.
Happened to me once on my commute home from work.
Yup, the perils of commuting by horse.
The horse bolted because it was attacked by people. There is a video doing the rounds if you want to find it. Amongst other things it was hit with a (hire) bike. It takes a lot to make a police horse bolt.
It also ran over a person shortly afterwards.
The usual peaceful protests against police violence in another country.
The usual peaceful protests against police violence in another country.
No. Instigated in another country, but there’s plenty and recent news over hear of black deaths and mistreatment caused by police action in the UK. The protests are aimed at the US hence today’s March at the embassy, but actually represent systemic authoritarian racism in the police forces in both countries where - as discussed over and over in this thread - black lives are not considered as valuable as white lives by some people.
I condemn the violence but it’s pleasing to see many protesters and activists doing the same this morning, condemning the Actions of the few as a weakening of the message.
I read Jodi Picoult's Small Great Things over the last few days, fantastic book, she's an awesome writer - gave me some really interesting (to me 🙂 ) thoughts related to this whole situation. One that you're lucky enough for me to share with you starts with a question - how often do you think about race? As a white person, outside the current protests, it's pretty much never, right? I'm never penalised for it, don't have to think about it, don't have to change how I behave because of it. How often do black people think about it? The people she spoke to when researching the book told her - every. Single. Day.
Actions of the few as a weakening of the message.
Almost as if some of them might be plants.......?
What's the answer then, white people wear hair shirts for a while? Racism has different roots in this country, different history and culture. Racism is endemic, Brexit proved that, but it's also endemic in many ethnic groups in the UK, it's far from just black & white. If you really want change then Johnson, Gove, Rees Hogg all need locking up as their fundamentally racist and xenophobic Brexit policy has made the day when are people are just people at least 20 years further off.
Trouble is here every time we have people like John Boyega ranting it makes the casually racist people in this country a little more entrenched. I get the passion, I get the anger and I'm not denying the ongoingb inequalities in treatment (although being white and comfortably off im probably not allowed to say that) but social harmony isn't going to be achieved in this country by pitching one group against another, confrontation or armed struggle rarely leads to harmonious peace. We've come a long way since the 60s with highly visible racism at every turn, most people will now admit racism is wrong if directly confronted, they didn't 50 years ago. We're not going to fix stuff over night how ever appealing that is. I really feel the protests here make those attending them feel better about themselves whilst the people they want to change are looking at the protests and muttering about the same rules not applying to everyone.
The States is different, the system is so broken over there it probably does need some violence and mass protests, it's not about gradual and sustainable culture change there, it's about the shock needed to make those in power realise they need to act. Trump is a lost cause, but others on the political hierarchy who are money orientated will be bright enough to realise rioting and civil unrest will not be good for the economy long term.
Man butt-dials a self-fulfilling prophecy to Facebook Live.
One small bright spot amid the chaos in America...
https://kvia.com/news/us-world/2020/06/06/a-teen-who-spent-10-hours-cleaning-up-after-a-protest-is-rewarded-with-a-car-and-a-college-scholarship/
I've only just watched the full video of Floyd's death, up to now just seen the neck restraint stills and that was enough
I know it's trite of me to say but it bears repeating. It's shocking
I watched this NY times analysis and commentary and would urge you to watch if you haven't already. Cold callous murder. "get up and get in the car" when he's unable to move is medieval sadism. And keeping knee on neck when he's unconscious, when he's being filmed by at least 2 passer bys and when ambulance arrives is brazen AF
Always stop at the lights.
Man butt-dials a self-fulfilling prophecy to Facebook Live.
That's where I have some family. IME any discussion about inequality with them degenerates very quickly. Years ago we seriously considered selling up and moving over. After a few visits, we changed our mind.
Using horses for "crowd control" is stupid. I ride regularly and consider it unfair on the crowd, the horse and even the cop on it.
I'm unlikely ever to be in a protest with horses present but I know how to make a horse uncontrollable in one easy move and bolt with a second (might need a third).
People are afraid of getting kicked, but once you've filed a few horses sore feet you know what the limits of movement of their legs are, they find it hard to kick sideways, especially with their front legs.