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Here's an example of my earlier point about violence and domination by force is endemic in all levels of US society.
Someone on my Facebook feed (an American living in the US) shared a post by someone who was presumably a friend or associate of his. It was in strong support of the protests and strongly denounced racism, which was good. Then it said something like 'if you don't agree then get the **** off my Facebook feed' which is also ok. But it finished with 'or come find me and see how well that goes for you.'
So even those who strive to be good and righteous think in terms of violence. It's absolutely endemic. This is why Trump is acting the way he is, it's why the Police act the way they do, and it's why people support them.
I honestly cannot fathom why you are trying to protect such behaviour.
You appear to not be able to read very well so I’ll keep this simple. My original post was referring to the female reporter who lost an eye. You wrongly assumed I was talking about some bloke I’ve not even heard of. Wind your neck in, I’m not attempting to protect anyone. Clear enough?
https://edition.cnn.com/specials/live-cnni-uk
If you want answers rydster. watch the memorial on the now. very powerful stuff. If you can't hear the message in there... well...
I want the truth, not fabricated lies.
The only person who knows for certain whether they were actually shot or not is the one doing the claiming.
You can get different injuries from 'rubber' bullets just as you can from a punch in the face, up to and including death. Range is a factor, as is direct / indirect impact (you're supposed to bounce them off the floor at closer ranges to take some of the energy out of the shot).
I'm as sceptical as they come and demand corroboration and sources for the daily churn presented as "facts" in various corners of the Internet. But you do realise, don't you, that baselessly concluding that he's lying is as equally fallacious thinking as baselessly believing what he's claiming.
molgrips,
Your friends friend is basically just saying it with bombers.
I could also interpret what he is saying as' don't type s*** on my Facebook page you wouldn't say to my face.'
@dazh I only asked you directly as you had commented on rioting previously. Plus you generally come across as the sort of person who would have an answer to that question. Cheers though, question answered.
the violence from the cops in the US is astounding. I've just seen a couple of clips on twitter that have made me feel physically sick - 2 massive fat cops kneeling on a girl after whacking her with sticks, one girl having her tits grabbed by a cop, then smashed up and down the body with sticks until she fell.
How the hell can this go on? And they know they're being videoed for the world to see??! Stunning.
How the hell can this go on? And they know they’re being videoed for the world to see??! Stunning.
Agreed. This is headline news everywhere today. Poor guy in his 70s. It's the way the whole squad just walk straight past him.
Tripped and fell!
Ok, as we're posting the stuff. I know we don't see what led the cop to grope her, but holy shit.
Another example of America's violence problem.
In my wife's home town in Wisconsin a house had been standing empty for a few months and a black man moved in. The neighbours, on seeing someone in the house, called the cops who went in with guns drawn.
Would it have happened if it had been a white man? It might've done. Certainly wouldn't have happened if it had been a family, and probably not if it had been a woman. But the point is that on seeing a person in the house, the neighbours' first thought was that a crime was being committed. That is a siege mentality.
Now we don't know the entire story of course, but it's hard to imagine what a newly moved in man would do to look suspicious enough to warrant police with guns.
It's never-ending. 🙁
https://twitter.com/crzy****world/status/1268746254982483968?s=19
How the hell can this go on? And they know they’re being videoed for the world to see??! Stunning.
Only happens in America..
A friend in the US, lives in a lovely area of California, brill job, great family, all-round good guy, won't go for a jog around the block as he gets reported and worries what could happen.
Reported for what? Is this another of these stupid citations or whatever they're called?
Those film footages are physically revolting. It seems the level of inequality in a society will be matched by a commensurate degree of repression (and religion).
I know we don’t see what led the cop to grope her
He could have grabbed her by the pussy, you can do what you want*
*crude but I think you know where i am going with this
Reported for what?
Who knows, but he's fed up being challenged by the cops I think.
Rydster, have you forgotten about the windrush scandal? That’s one reason why people are protesting the government, the bill boards on vans telling foreigners to go home is another. Constant (brexit fuelled) us and them comments from the government is another.
Your either very ignorant, or a troll.
The Windrush scandal concerned about 200 individuals who were dealt with insensitively by immigration. Not having been naturalised they strickly speaking fell foul of immigration laws but most people would agree that the application of these laws was unreasonable in their case. Do I agree that border control is racist in essence? Of course not.
More...
https://twitter.com/ABC7/status/1268673244715859968?s=19
... and more (same incident, different angle).
https://twitter.com/MrCooper1234/status/1268732835340275713?s=19
And still (I can't my head around this) some people tie themselves in knots trying to justify it.
The Windrush scandal concerned about 200 individuals who were dealt with insensitively by immigration.
May I politely suggest that your statement rather under-eggs the devastating impact of Windrush?
It's mental that even at a protest against police brutality, the police can't just pretend and stop doing police brutality for a few days.
Rydster, do you get your factual information from BNP leaflets? Or is the edl and Tommy Robinson more your cup of tea?
I'm not denying that the protests were legitimate but there was also a great deal of looting and violence associated with said protests. Something like 200 Target stores are consequentially closed and where are the local people going to buy their groceries from now? Images of police in riot gear need to be seen in that context.
Anybody else think the The US government is trying to extend the protests? That it's looking to exploit the situation for political gain? They could have taken the option of letting the protests run out of steam. The looting stopped a few days ago so the threat to law and order has receded but the police are ramping up the violence against unarmed protesters Funny how the police were no where to be seen where the looting was actually happening, (well not in uniform anyway)
This looks worse than images we see from Russia or Hong Kong. You can see the different forces of the State, a president with King like powers able to direct security forces like a private militia, with literally no effective legal or congressional oversight.
The question is already being asked, 'where does the Army stand?'
America is beginning to look a lot like Turkey.
Anybody else think the The US government is trying to extend the protests? That it’s looking to exploit the situation for political gain?
Barr was very subdued in his press conference yesterday, said Monday in DC was all about moving the perimeter, he knew nothing of the photo op at the church, some BS about people smashing paving slabs and using them as weapons (this has been filmed elsewhere, thought to be white activists). He didn't repeat the 'we didn't use tear gas' claims.
I’m not denying that the protests were legitimate but there was also a great deal of looting and violence associated with said protests. Something like 200 Target stores are consequentially closed and where are the local people going to buy their groceries from now? Images of police in riot gear need to be seen in that context.
Context, you say?
https://people.com/crime/protesters-form-human-chain-new-york-target-prevent-looting/
That's one - want some more? How many more videos of people not looting stores being brutalised by the police do you want?
I’m not denying that the protests were legitimate but there was also a great deal of looting and violence associated with said protests.
If you've evidence that the people protesting are the same people that are looting, now would be the time to throw it up here. Bear in mind that the last proper study about this found that protesters who're sufficiency motivated to come out onto the streets are unlikely in the midst of that protest, to decide that what they're really here for is a free 42" Amoled...The same study found that protesters are likely to target "symbolic power" ie the Cop station with graffiti, the capitol building and so on...
Protests do however lure out to the street people who're totally down for a bit of free telly, sure. But It's OK to beat them up with sticks, kneel on them, and drop tear gas all over them (and by co-incidence, the legitimate protesters), right?
Plus also, some of the reporting about looting is just plain wrong. A police report suggested (and a newspaper led with the same report) that a Rolex store had been stripped clean and had pictures of smashed windows and empty display cases all tipped up. The Rolex store actually had to release a statement saying, they had removed all the stock, and that while the windows were broken, they had lost NO product at all.
Plus as before, so what about a bit of looting? most stores can be robbed at anytime, can get burnt to the ground at any time, can be looted. It's a risk you take, and giant corps like Target will be up and running in no time again. Against a protest about police murdering with impunity, it's nothing.
True Story: I watched a guy dash into a Barrett and Holland store in Manchester, he barged past me and reached to the Manuka Honey, grabbed one and legged it. I spoke to the store person and said "why don't you move it?" (the jars, it turned out; were about £25.00) "Can't" came the reply, "the head office want them in the very front of the store. we keep telling them they get nicked, but they don't care, they accept they'll loose a few" If organisations like H&B act like that...d'you thy're bothered about a store being turned over?
This picture hits you hard, but not nearly the same force as a 'non-lethal' round hitting the face of a homeless man in a wheelchair.
I have a feeling that it will become an emblem of this period in US history.
Plus as before, so what about a bit of looting? most stores can be robbed at anytime, can get burnt to the ground at any time, can be looted. It’s a risk you take, and giant corps like Target will be up and running in no time again. Against a protest about police murdering with impunity, it’s nothing.
Because people die in riots and looting. Several have died already. And if mass theft and destruction is to be tolerated then why would people bother to buy anything again when they can just take it? Why would anyone invest in a shop? The state has a duty to protect life and property within reason.
but not nearly the same force as a ‘non-lethal’ round hitting the face
Less than lethal is the official term I think...
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=less+lethal+bullets
different angle showing the extent of the damage caused:This picture hits you hard, but not nearly the same force as a ‘non-lethal’ round hitting the face of a homeless man in a wheelchair.
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The state has a duty to protect life and property within reason.
Do explain how that duty is served by kneeling on some-one's neck for eight and half minutes until they're dead.
Do you agree that if the people tasked with the duty of upholding the law are broken, then equally the citizenry cannot be held to higher standard should they choose to protest?
****, those pictures are hard to look at.
****, those pictures are hard to look at.
Anyone who is trying to justify police tactics needs to take a long, hard, look at them. And then a long, hard look at themselves.
There can be no possible justification for what’s just happened to that poor bloke in the wheelchair. What must have been going through that cop’s tiny mind when he took that shot? Pure savagery. Evil.
TBH Rydster, if you find yourself using words like "suspicious" and "nebulous" to describe concepts such as Equality, Freedom and Liberty. I don't think there's much anyone on the thread can do any more, to explain it to you.
Nick, you’re on to a loser. I think he’s my Dad’s (american) wife. She tried to justify the Rodney King beating years ago!
Aye, Watty you're right. At least I tried.
Reported.
TBH Rydster, if you find yourself using words like “suspicious” and “nebulous” to describe concepts such as Equality, Freedom and Liberty. I don’t think there’s much anyone on the thread can do any more, to explain it to you.
Luckily my 14 and 12 year old daughters are capable of explaining it and feeling outraged by what they see. Listening to kids does give you some cause for hope in the future.
Rydster, your analysis of Windrush sounds like it was written by Trump. Have a word with yourself.
Are you guys happy to keep 'debating' the issues with Rydster or are you feeling like me that his standpoint is so objectionable that he needs some time out? I'm finding him offensive and he's making me pretty angry.
I thought he was just being troll, but actually he is unpleasant
"objectionable"? If this was a conversation in a pub, someone would have had, err, "words" with him by now.
Trolling us great, but not when the thread is about racism.
'The resulting rally caused the deaths(sic) of a counter-protester'. Who's ever heard of a rally killing a protester? Will it be arrested?
You've got to love the beeb.
There's no debate, dude's on a wind-up.
I just wish he’d answer my questions on why revolutions are adolescent and irresponsible and how a westerner can’t understand them. Even though there have been countless revolutions in Europe over the years. You know, Europe, that well known Middle Eastern place.
I think he’s just a really shit troll who has to have an answer for everything. A bit like an irresponsible adolescent.
An example here of US lack of tolerance. Even if he didn't agree with the posters, or was enforcing some 'no poster' rules, WTF? The tweets suggest he's been identified via Strava by cyclists.
Thanks Mark, trolling normally...Who cares, but this feels wrong right now. I'm happy to leave it to you how you think to best deal with it from STW's perspective.
I just wish he’d answer my questions on why revolutions are adolescent and irresponsible and how a westerner can’t understand them.
Have you ever experienced a revolution? They don't always go to better places and often result in significant loss of life and property, especially when those demanding revolution don't have any plan for what they want beyond vague goals such as 'justice' or 'equality'.
If you have never experienced a total breakdown in law and order you don't have any business promoting it from your sofa. The law is a precious thing, without it, there is a Hobbesian world which is an ugly place.
For the record, I've think the death of George Floyd looks like murder and the officers should be prosecuted, and I've already acknowledged that the US has a problem with police violence and racism.
Are you guys happy to keep ‘debating’ the issues with Rydster or are you feeling like me that his standpoint is so objectionable that he needs some time out? I’m finding him offensive and he’s making me pretty angry.
I tried to engage early on, then I dis-engaged when I realised he is either unwilling or incapable of understanding, and faced with either possibility it seemed my time was better spent elsewhere.
Some of those videos and pictures are horrific. The man in the wheelchair... ****.
I’m not promoting anything. I’m simply stating that revolutions happen for a reason. To write them off as adolescent is quite frankly pathetic. I’ve also not claimed that every one has been good. Of course there is loss of life and property. Do you think that all revolutions throughout history have been wrong, that none have resulted in positive changes? If so then you’re a ****ing idiot.
Ok, I will bite... The Arab Spring, where a lot of people that had been, in some cases brutally, oppressed, or had seen billions of dollars of wealth siphoned overseas while they starved.
They rose up and tried to replace their government. I will admit that these did not turn out as well as maybe they hoped, but should the people have just stepped back, accepted torture, imprisonment, starvation and oppression, or should they have done something about it? Politics hadn't worked in a lot of these cases, with opposition parties having accidents or being banned, so what should the average person, the oppressed millions done?
The law is a precious thing, without it, there is a Hobbesian world which is an ugly place.
The assumption there is that "law" is automatically a good thing. We had laws saying slavery was permitted and those trying to free slaves should be punished. Do you feel that was a precious thing.
Revolutions happen when people feel the state structures which often include the legal system (although not always depending on how effective a state it is) is failing them.
So if people are heading towards revolution its time to review how the state and legal system is or isnt functioning.
I have read a few bits about whats going on (pro-protest and all life matters view points) and watched some of the twitter etc videos being posted here and other places. Also read some of the reasonings/explanations for why BLM and the protests are the problem, not whats being protested about.
I can now honestly say that I am pretty ashamed of our species, that I am part of it and that I share a large proportion of the same make up as some of these people. How can so many people be so blind?
Jamze,
At first, I honestly thought You were posting a clip in which rydster's identity had been rumbled.
I’m not saying any different and I wasn’t referencing the UK. The US may be heading for some form of revolution though. I hope it isn’t, but with a narcissist man child in charge who insists on state sanctioned violence, it may go that way.
Are you guys happy to keep ‘debating’ the issues with Rydster or are you feeling like me that his standpoint is so objectionable that he needs some time out? I’m finding him offensive and he’s making me pretty angry.
His standpoint is very objectionable but much of this debate is about rights. He has the right to have objectionable views. I don't like them but I do like the fact that we live in a world that lets him share those views. I don't think he should get time out, yet.
Jamie,
At first, I honestly thought You were posting a clip in which rydster’s identity had been rumbled.
Not engaging with all that...🙄
The 13th is on Netflix if anyone is interested
The land of the free doesn’t come out of it well
Overview here https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/oct/09/13th-review-bracing-fiercely-intelligent-prison-documentary-ava-duvernay
Theres no understanding of US politics without race at the centre of it
It also explains how someone can be so indoctrinated to no see what’s wrong. Pretty messed up long term manipulation for political gain.
rydster earlier today trying to reconcile his opinions on liberal multiculturalism and reality
His standpoint is very objectionable but much of this debate is about rights. He has the right to have objectionable views. I don’t like them but I do like the fact that we live in a world that lets him share those views.
True, that.
I missed this yesterday - letter to Trump asking the feds be removed, as all protests the night before were peaceful with zero arrests, and the mayor has concerns that they include unbadged, anonymous troops. Chapeau.
Edit: from the mayor of DC
https://twitter.com/MayorBowser/status/1268895206713307138?s=19
The 13th is on Netflix if anyone is interested
It's fascinating and disturbing. In it they suggest that while the US has 5% of the world's population they have 25% od the world's prisoners.
@pondo, I read that letter on Twitter, noted the fact that it's illegal to have law enforcement on the streets of Washington DC without insignia. I wonder who, in the Trump administration asked/told them to remove it and why?
I read that letter on Twitter, noted the fact that it’s illegal to have law enforcement on the streets of Washington DC without insignia. I wonder who, in the Trump administration asked/told them to remove it and why?
There has been a lot of chatter about this on twitter suggesting that they are militia. Most of the time though they appear to be prison guards. They wear all black without insignia or just very small badges. Which, in itself, it odd as the do like a velcro badge in the US.
Noticed this on that DC Mayor's tweet. Trump announced earlier he's had to cancel his golfing weekend.
https://twitter.com/AdamParkhomenko/status/1268722555084591105?s=20
Honestly, I'm going to have a weekend off Twitter - constant anger can't be doing me any good. 🙁
https://twitter.com/DavidHarewood/status/1268835173342294016?s=19
Spot the Ebiker!
Only kidding, ebike friends. 🙂
Kind of incidently, just been reading about police pay in the States - some of them are coining it! Police in NY are on 85k after 5 years, and can retire after 22 years on half salary. Some of them get 150k+ with long service and overtime and stuff - a common practice is to save leave in the last year (or years - must be), then cash it in for a massive final salary - 450k in their last year, anyone? 🙂
Rydster, you are assuming that everyone has the same opportunity and experiences as you do. We don't live in a meritocracy where every one has an equal advantage. You fear a Hobbesian world, fueled by selfishness resulting in lawlessness, however that assumes that the current state of affairs is relatively balanced. It's not, it's tipped in favour of the powerful and wealthy by using systematic oppression. The majority live in relative or absolute poverty, with PoC disproportionately at the bottom. I would argue that we already live in that Hobbesian state of nature that you fear, where people would sell their granny to keep up with the Jones's. We are a devided nation in a world that is poised for WW3 in the middle of a pandemic. As a nation we are xenophobic and hostile to people we perceive as foreigners or poor, whilst giving them a round of applause at 8pm on a Thursday. We have done similar before in times of crisis and war.
Whilst we have made limited progress towards a more equal and stable society, the dominant are reluctant to relenqish power. You can see it in our politics and the workplace, where minorities and the poor have to be twice as good and work twice as hard to gain recognition. Nobody is saying that white men don't have a hard time, but they don't have a hard time because they are black.
You want a manifesto from BLM, detailing what their demands are. BLM are an unorganised collective, who work together in support of each other's causes. These individual causes range in everything from access, unlawful shooting, education, health, and that list is not exhaustive. It is a good example of social anarchy (anarchy doesn't equate to violence) where different groups work together, as has happened in the Uk under lockdown. If you are looking for a soundbite like "Make 'Murica Great (again?)" my personal suggestion would be R.E.S.P.E.C.T
Kind of incidently, just been reading about police pay in the States
Bear in mind, US pay structure isn't the same as ours. Most don't get things like paid holidays (I didn't think anyone did, that last comment surprises me) or things like sick pay, and a couple of weeks in hospital with CV19 will cost you a year's salary.
We're seeing a lot of shocking footage coming out of the US currently, but how representative are they of the force(s) as a whole? Many surely are good people trying to make a difference whilst running the risk daily of being shot dead after stopping someone for a speeding offence. I'd want a lot more than $85k US to be a police officer over there.
whilst running the risk daily of being shot dead after stopping someone for a speeding offence. I’d want a lot more than $85k US to be a police officer over there.
I was surprised to read the other day that being a cop in the USA isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs, and not only that, it's trending down every year (bar a few years of anomalies) every year since the 1980s.
Here's a list of the top 25 most dangerous jobs
- Logging workers
- Fishers and related fishing workers
- Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
- Roofers
- Refuse and recyclable material collectors
- Driver/sales workers and truck drivers
- Farmers, ranchers and other agricultural managers
- Structural iron and steel workers
- First-line supervisors of construction trades and extraction workers
- First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service and groundskeeping workers
- Electrical power-line installers and repairers
- Grounds maintenance workers
- Miscellaneous agricultural workers
- Helpers, construction trades
- First-line supervisors of mechanics, installers and repairers
- Police and sheriff’s patrol officers
- Construction laborers
- Maintenance and repair workers, general
- Mining machine operators
- Operation engineers and other construction equipment operators
- Bus and truck mechanics and diesel engine specialists
- Electricians
- Heating, air conditioning, and refrigeration mechanics and installers
- Athletes, coaches, umpires and related workers
- Industrial truck and tractor operators
Came from here Atlana Journal I've no idea whether their data is any better or worse than any other I've seen, but they all seem to be braodly in agreement. You'll note how far down Cops come....
rydster earlier today trying to reconcile his opinions on liberal multiculturalism and reality
I always found David Starkey to be a very good historian with strong critical views. Always make sense in his interpretation of history. Other historians are fine but not as interesting as David Starkey. I think he is the best of the lot of historians when it comes to Tudor history. He tells it as it is very insightful and very interesting.
I’m not promoting anything. I’m simply stating that revolutions happen for a reason. To write them off as adolescent is quite frankly pathetic. I’ve also not claimed that every one has been good. Of course there is loss of life and property. Do you think that all revolutions throughout history have been wrong, that none have resulted in positive changes? If so then you’re a **** idiot.
Cultural revolution in China any good? Now they want to curtail the rights of people of HK.
Cultural Revolution - The Guardian
Cultura Revolution - The Independent
Police in NY are on 85k after 5 years,
Bear in mind that 85k does not go very far in NYC and it won't be the same across the country.
It’s going to be very, very interesting to see what Angry Tinkerbell says on Twitter about this. He’s not going to be able to ignore it, and I sincerely hope that his apoplectic rage causes him to have an aneurism. Personally, I think it’s a fantastic response, and huge kudos to the Mayor of Washington.
https://mashable.com/article/washington-dc-black-lives-matter-street-painting-mayor-muriel-bowser/?europe=true
I always found David Starkey to be a very good historian with strong critical views
TBH chewkw, and I don't mean this in a pejorative way, unless you actually hold a doctorate in Constitutional History and you can make value judgements based on a critical analysis of David's work, including all his written works, his lectures, his research and opinions. You views on whether he's a good historian or not are about as valid as the fart I just let out are.
Cultural revolution in China any good? Now they want to curtail the rights of people of HK.
Jesus Christ! Once more, this time I will type slowly, see if that works. Not all revolutions are good, some are bad. Revolutions are some time’s the only viable way forward when all other attempts at diplomacy or peace fail. They are bloody, horrific things most of the time, but can lead to positive change in the long run. There, is that better?
David Starkey made me laugh when he criticised the youth of today for affecting their speech with Ebonics. Failing to realise that the strength of the English language has been it's adaptability and mutability. English has become the lingua franca of the world precisely because of its ability to adapt to the times and accomodate existing (foreign) words into its lexicon.
It was also very much the a case of the pot calling the kettle.... For David Starkey has perhaps the most affected voice in the Country, he sounds posher than the Queen, and that's simply not possible. The Queen is the poshest person in the world, it's her only job.
It’s going to be very, very interesting to see what Angry Tinkerbell says on Twitter about this. He’s not going to be able to ignore it, and I sincerely hope that his apoplectic rage causes him to have an aneurism. Personally, I think it’s a fantastic response, and huge kudos to the Mayor of Washington.
On the surface it might look like a good idea but it will not work.
Where I come from we are discriminated no ifs or buts. The authority does not even bother to hide it or to pretend to hide it put this way. For example, all civil servant jobs are totally reserved for certain race and religion. If you don't belong to the listed race or religion your only hope is to find way to survive on your own or join the private sector. Even higher education is reserved for certain race and/or religion, with very limited quota for others. Even the quota is not met in full. We also experience race riots 1969 where many died but nothing change much until today. In my experience things are getting slightly better, slightly ... I still got shouted with sarcastic remarks the last time I renewed my driving license at the council. Note that my description above is from far east.
That’s not in living memory for almost anyone alive today. How that justifies looting consumer goods from stores is a mystery.
That’s the point, it damn well should be, but it’s been buried, and nobody at all is justifying the looting, which always happens in these situations, it’s carried out by opportunists just taking advantage of the distractions, but then you know that, don’t you.
There are numerous references to ‘rubber bullets’ being used, and there needs to be some clarity as to what these things actually are. They’re more correctly known as kinetic weapons, or ‘less lethal’ weapons, the US police like to use the term ‘non-lethal’ but that is totally incorrect. They should never be used indiscriminately against demonstrators because they’re impossible to aim, and the results can be catastrophic.
Anyone who thinks that it’s fine for them to be used in the way they are should read this article in full, the details are eye-opening, and I use that term deliberately.