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The president is going to speak
I need to watch that, Obama’s going to accidentally end up back in power if he’s not careful.
Bad news re London, do people not realise criminal activity undermines the credibility of good work that people want to do
Kryton57
SubscriberI need to watch that, Obama’s going to accidentally end up back in power if he’s not careful.
can only do 2 terms.
can only do 2 terms.
Rules are there to be broken. How many people right now do you think would vote Obama back in?
The 'protest' in London doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Domestic politics in the US and especially the legacies of slavery there aren't our business, and you have a weak case when your version of Rodney King or George Floyd is Mark Duggan who was an armed criminal.
I should imagine quite a few things don't make any sense to you
and you have a weak case when your version of Rodney King or George Floyd is Mark Duggan
Our version of systemic racism by authority is recently highlighted by the windrush scandal, sending British citizens to die homeless and friendless in a foreign country, and despite all the publicity and public outcry, the government never righted the wrongs committed.
The ‘war’ in Europe doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Domestic politics in Germany and Poland and the legacies of the First World War aren't our business....
Shut up.
Ignore the troll
FFS..
Actually sod it, I'm not going to let that idiot get in my way.
Solidarity, allies, whatever, I get it. I really do. What I don't get is why protests here need to escalate. Not looking for a fight, @dazh sounds like one for you.
An interesting look at how wearing paramilitary gear changes the relationship with the police.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90512090/the-twisted-psychology-of-militarized-police-uniforms
The ‘protest’ in London doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
No shit, Sherlock.
but I know they shouldn’t be using tear gas and rubber bullets against peaceful protesters and journalists
Would the rubber bullet reference be from this morning ?, with an interview of a journalist being hit in the eye by a rubber bullet.
Watched that and I've also seen first hand in NI what a rubber bullet does when it hits someone and from the small mark on the guys face, It looked more like someones cuff did it. A rubber bullet in the face and he wouldnt be able to speak.
Also, he was reported as an amateur reporter, rather than affiliated with anyone so yuo got the impression he was just some bloke taking pictures on his mobile and who got involved in a scuffle.
Live link to Obama speech on policing and protests below, starts soon
Two reporters hit with possible rubber bullets...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.insider.com/black-lives-matter-protesters-journalists-hurt-disabled-police-rubber-bullets-2020-6%3famp
I also saw a CNN video of the police firing rubber bullets at people stood by their front door. Rubber bullet hit a young female in the leg. ( probably late teens or early twenties so had no idea if I said young girl if I’d be seen as trying to make it sound worse)
Another report of a police rubber bullet shooting, this time a grandmother.
Here are some consequences of maliciously undermining police authority:
Police heard comments such as 'you are not letting him breathe' and 'I saw officers stamp on his neck' - even when 'the detained male was sat up on the ground'.
Would the rubber bullet reference be from this morning ?, with an interview of a journalist being hit in the eye by a rubber bullet.
Two days ago a journalist named Linda Tirado lost her sight in an eye to one. What point are you trying to make exactly?
Count zero,
Reminds me of an old advert for the British army where some UK soldiers were on a UN posting somewhere in Africa and they rendered a potentially volatile scene two ways, one with sunglasses on and one with sunglasses off.
It would be as difficult to take away many an American policeman's shades as to take away their gun.
Remember Cartman in the South Park Cool Hand Luke skit...
'RESPECT MY AUTHORATAH'
Rioters have managed to piss off Chicago Latin kings(cartel backed btw).
If this continues this is not going to end well:
The rioting and looting in liberal/democrat run cities destroying business in many cases owned and run by minorities seems like a counterproductive effort.
The rioting and looting in liberal/democrat run cities destroying business in many cases owned and run by minorities seems like a counterproductive effort.
It’s pretty much inevitable that this should happen, for obvious reasons I shouldn’t need to explain.
For some historical context into the anger that festers in American Black communities, if anyone here hasn’t watched it the HBO series Watchmen is worth checking out, if only for the opening episode. What that showed wasn’t fiction, it was an example of the extreme racism that America is capable of, and which most Americans don’t know about because it’s been buried, I’d never heard of it, I thought it was made up for the story, but it’s fact. Tulsa 1921, look it up, it could happen again.
https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/hbo-watchmen-rewatch-2020
I would contest that it has been buried, the Wikipedia entry shows that, a bipartisan factfinding committee was formed in the late 60s. I don’t think anyone would contest that America has an extremely racist past.
For some historical context into the anger that festers in American Black communities, if anyone here hasn’t watched it the HBO series Watchmen is worth checking out, if only for the opening episode. What that showed wasn’t fiction, it was an example of the extreme racism that America is capable of, and which most Americans don’t know about because it’s been buried, I’d never heard of it, I thought it was made up for the story, but it’s fact. Tulsa 1921, look it up, it could happen again.
That's not in living memory for almost anyone alive today. How that justifies looting consumer goods from stores is a mystery.
If your response is
"it's a shame that man was murdered by the police, but this rioting must be stopped at all costs"
and not:
"it's a shame about the rioting, but having people being murdered by the police must be stopped at all costs"
You need to have a long look at yourself in the mirror.
My response is neither of them.
The US can definitely do more to reduce the number of deaths at the hands of police but it can never eliminate this from happening.
Mass looting and rioting needs controlling within reason. It's potentially much more consequential to life and property than the death of one person. The very credibility of the state as provider of law and order is at stake. All successful societies have treated rioting and mass unrest in the same way. A Hobbesian world is an ugly one, much more ugly even than an overzealous police. Just looks at what happened in Iraq and Libya for example recently.
What point are you trying to make exactly?
That he wasn't actually hit by a rubber bullet and is lying to get a bit of air time ?
The overwhelming response in my opinion is protests are justified. US police needs reform in the way it polices poor areas and how it deals internally with police officers that are not up to standard. What is not justified is rioting, looting and sacking.
baboonz - I would not contest your view that America has an extremely racist past but that is irrelevant.
The point is it has a very racist present; a president who is a white supremacist hiding in plain view, unable to openly condemn white on black violence.
Police subject to little effective control.
Fake news - aka ignorance - dominates the *news* agenda for too many; there is an
ever-increasing number of the hard of thinking in the US - and in the UK; polarised views; populism and nationalism reign.
A clear inability to accept that other views exist.
In a mature democracy, everyone's voice should be heard and considered.
By that, admittedly simplistic, measure both US and UK fail dismally.
The very credibility of the state as provider of law and order is at stake.
The state has long lost any credibility, and is not going to gain it back with more violence. It was state sanctioned murder that started the protests and exposed the systemic racism, people are wanting to see that the government is willing to listen and change. If the military go in fighting it could result in more uprising
Mass looting and rioting needs controlling within reason
do you think thats what's happening? Do you think the strength of response to protests (not the riots, the protests) is justified? Is it "reasonable" in your opinion? Don't you think that the enormous overreaction and brutalising of peaceful black protestors by the police and government is indicative of the issue that they are protesting about? Have you seen the casual way in which white policemen are assaulting black protestors? Does that turn your stomach? Does it make you think that the protesters might actually have a point?
The US can definitely do more to reduce the number of deaths at the hands of police
hooray - we got there - THATS WHAT THE PROTEST IS ABOUT. The fact that, not only are they not doing anything, the perception within black communities is that it's getting worse. In fact (see above) the response to the protests tells most people that they are definitely worse.
Do you remember Colin Kaepernik's dignified protest against police brutality? Do you remember how that was received? Do you think anything changed as a result - or was it just treated with contempt?
Would you be happy to change places with a poor black man in America right now?
What point are you trying to make exactly?
That he wasn’t actually hit by a rubber bullet and is lying to get a bit of air time ?
And the other ones that were hit and aren’t lying?
The very credibility of the state as provider of law and order is at stake
Err....that’s why this whole thing started. People protest about the police being violent thugs, state reacts by being more thuggish and violent, people in turn become angrier and more violent. I don’t think there is much credibility left to lose. Talks and reform are what’s needed. Unfortunately I don’t think that will happen due to Trump.
Mass looting and rioting needs controlling within reason
You might have missed it with all the whataboutery you've been flinging about, but police haven't been doing much tear-gassing, baton-charging or shooting rubber bulleting of looters.
don’t think there is much credibility left to lose
That depends on your point of view. Are you a white, middle class person who can phone the police and report a black person acting suspiciously and get them stopped, searched and removed from the area?
Or are you a young black delivery driver who sees the curtains twitching and wonders how trigger/taser/chokehold-happy the police officers that have just been sent to investigate you will be?
Sorry bails, credibility of the police and their handlers. I don’t see how they can backtrack out of this. Complaints of violence met with violence that propagates more violence etc. My point of view is neither of the above. It’s that unchecked violence and racism from people that are supposed to protect and serve needs to end. I don’t think it will though. The US seems to be entrenched in this pseudo military mindset. America, **** Yeah!
Mass looting and rioting needs controlling within reason. It’s potentially much more consequential to life and property than the death of one person. The very credibility of the state as provider of law and order is at stake
If it was the reaction to the death of one person, you might have a point, but it isn't. It's about the systematic in built racsim that has yet to be properly challenged in the US Here's Martin Luther King Jr making the point much more eloquently than I can from 50 years ago...
The very credibility of the state as provider of law and order is at stake. All successful societies have treated rioting and mass unrest in the same way.
Whereas I would propose that a society with rioting and mass unrest is not a successful society.
It’s about the systematic in built racsim
That is such a general and arguably slippery concept that it's very hard for the gov to know what it actually needs to deliver in terms of new laws and making policies.
I've heard many people speaking about systemic racism recently but I feel hardly any of them could speak eloquently about what it is.
What I don’t get is why protests here need to escalate. Not looking for a fight, @dazh sounds like one for you.
Not sure why this is directed at me but always happy to provide an opinion. The issues in the US are present here. The main difference is that here in the UK we're much better at cloaking our racism in a veil of british politeness and ignorance. It won't be police brutality here which sparks things off, it will be government incompetence and indifference to a black and working class population who are disproportionately suffering both physically and economically from covid.
it’s very hard for the gov to know what it actually needs to deliver in terms of new laws and making policies.
Stop and search and prison population figures would disagree with you.
That is such a general and arguably slippery concept that it’s very hard for the gov to know what it actually needs to deliver in terms of new laws and making policies.
Systematic racism had been examined before - knock yourself out
That is one particular instance of institutional racism which took a great deal of time and effort to unpack. In contrast, the protestors want some general and systemic racism dismantling but can't say what that actually looks like.
Stop and search and prison population figures would disagree with you.
So what laws and policies do you want?
Fair and just ones applied fairly. To much to ask? Laws and ploicies that make the police accountable for their actions would be a good start, and laws to limit what action they are allowed to take to arrest supects. The disproportionate use of force for whatever reason is at the core of this and then it's discrimately directed at some sections of the community due to a culture of racism that is present in every place I've ever been on earth to some degree.
Without knowing the colour of the "looters" and much more about the incident there's not much to be learned from that story. Was he killed because he was black (racist attack)? Was he armed and threatening the looters? Was he being paid to defend the shop? Was he wearing any kind of uniform?
Fair and just ones applied fairly. To much to ask? Laws and ploicies that make the police accountable for their actions would be a good start, and laws to limit what action they are allowed to take to arrest supects.
You still aren't answering the question. Tell me what specific laws and policies you want.
This lack of clarity is emblematic of the whole protest especially in the UK where a tiny number per year die in police custody or otherwise at hands of police.
I'm white/middle class/middle-aged. Only interactions with the Police have been, unsurprisingly, stress-free. Even as a youth getting moved on for skateboarding, I wasn't scared and they never threatened me. I've been to countries where I've been a visible ethnic minority, and also not really felt threatened.
So, I know I've got privileges that other people don't have. I'm not going to pretend that I understand the race issues in the US personally, but I reckon I've got enough empathy to see how bad it is for people over there. I don't have answers, I don't know what to do other than try and do the right thing where I can. Other people think different things, to an extent that's cool but full-on racism obviously isn't.
What I don't understand is points of view such as those of @rydster. I'm trying to understand it but it seems like you're saying the BLM movement should just stop, because there's nothing wrong? Do you genuinely think that they're making a fuss over nothing? The killing and brutality they're facing isn't happening? I'm sorry, not winding you up, just trying to understand your POV. I don't get the point you're trying to make?
Tell me what specific laws and policies you want.
Or what, if people can't you won the internet argument? I would imagine that there are reams of treaties, statute, laws, judgements. tribunals and so on and on that deal with racism. Heck, even I've had to sack some-one because of it (and I'm willing to bet that person still to this day doesn't really think they are/were a racist)
Most of the people protesting probably couldn't tell you what they want beyond asking the cops not to murder them...Institutional racism isn't defeated by law or policies, it's defeated by education and acceptance.
Institutional racism isn’t defeated by law or policies, it’s defeated by education and acceptance.
Is it? The Stephen Lawrence inquiry made recommendations of which 67 led to specific changes in the practice of the law.
Certainly, the US has obvious problems with policing but I'm speaking about the UK specifically. Like I said, many say they want systemic racism dismantled but they can't really say what that is or what it being dismantled looks like. How will we know what it's been achieved?
1. Not having all of the answers refutes the problem.
2. Not fully articulating the problem refutes the problem.
So what is the demand?
You still going with that one? Impressive staying power.
Jeez. One prominent poster in this thread can go belay underneath a climber that's taken a massive dose of Picolax.
#@*% racism/racists and those that excuse it/them.
So what is the demand?
Equality.
This is obvious, surely?
Hi @rydster, sorry if you missed this. I’m trying to understand your point - it seems like you’re saying the BLM movement should just stop, because there’s nothing wrong? Do you genuinely think that they’re making a fuss over nothing? The killing and brutality they’re facing isn’t happening? I’m sorry, not winding you up, just trying to understand your POV. I don’t get the point you’re trying to make?
Equality.
This is obvious, surely?
And what is that?
I'm just trying to interrogate what they want is all I'm doing.
And what is that?
This is dull and tedious now, you know exactly what it means...Look here you are describing it on page 1 of this thread.
not just the unnecessary (and probably sadistic) use of force but its symbolic value of a black man virtually under the boot of a white cop.
That you choose to troll a thread about racism isn't a good look TBH.
surely, rydster is simply a racist? or at least a racist apologist?
Reading between the lines, I'd say what we have here is a classic case of white man insecurity and jealousy. White people matter too you know! Why do the blacks get all the attention? It's political correctness gone mad etc..
Funny, having a forum name that rhymes with rydster is making me feel all dirty.
Makes me want to sign out and come back as the artist formerly known as inkster, anything to create as much distance as I can from people like him.
^^ +1 dazh
It's not a problem of policing, they're doing what they've been trained and equipped for. From the bits of footage I've seen they all seem to be acting pretty much in the same way. This pushing people over, in the US and the UK, seems nasty and new. All you need to do with the bar cuffs is sit the person against the wheel of a vehicle, they can be completely immobilised with a hand on the shoulder. What would motivate you to you kneel on someone's neck?
@rydster
If you haven't seen this on the other thread, have a read and you might get an idea what people are after.
The violence and police brutality are just the tip of the ice burg. Equality is people not making judgments based on the colour of someone.
Laws and policies do not solve this - it is the attitude of the general population that needs to change.
it is the attitude of the general population that needs to change.
So why protest to the government then?
I've agreed several times that the US police too easily resorts to violence and that black men disproportionately suffer. It seems there is scope for SMART demands here and changes for the better. OTOH when it comes to the UK, and especially the talk of ending some sort of generalised racism called 'systemic racism' the ground beneath the feet isn't so solid. I'm just very suspicious of people asking for some generalised and nebulous change which they can barely articulate. Piecemeal and measurable/achievable demands I commend.
So why protest to the government then?
Because the government can lead education of the general population.
I think thete's quite a bit of this about;
https://twitter.com/asgrdicns/status/1267899014441246727?s=19
I’m just very suspicious of people asking for some generalised and nebulous change
People are asking (or demanding) equality, this has been obvious since the emancipation of the slaves, that's an interesting turn of phrase you've used, what d'you mean; suspicious?
People are asking (or demanding) equality, this has been obvious since the emancipation of the slaves, that’s an interesting turn of phrase you’ve used, what d’you mean; suspicious?
That just begs another question; what does the equality you demand actually look like?
Equality like justice doesn't self-define.
A qualified or specified equality like equal voting rights, for example, is different. That can be formalised.
Seriously?
what does the equality you demand actually look like?
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
I don't know why you don't just ignore him, he's clearly trolling to elicit a response.
Has anyone seen if the medical examiner who covered up the murder has been charged? I have seen the the police officers that stood around watching have been charged, but nothing about the examiner who submitted the false report.
That must be a problem for the justice system now, to be so willing to lie like that, even after it has become national news, to give the police the answers they wanted rather than the truth, must call into dispute any evidence he has ever submitted. There could be thousands of unsafe convictions now, even when he was telling the truth, who is now to know.
And the other ones that were hit and aren’t lying?
Oh right, clearly justified to fabricate the story,because of 'other people'.
Take a look at his non injuries before reporting that he was hit by one. Then compare the girl in an induced coma and you will see one is a horrific injury, the other a slight bruise about 1" long under one eye.
The Reporter is fabricating the injury, implying it is something it isnt, in order to elevate his standing as a member of the public recording on a mobile into an on the spot reporter, no doubt with twitter and facebook.
I want the truth, not fabricated lies.
I honestly cannot fathom why you are trying to protect such behaviour.
Just seen this on LinkedIn, for me this sums up the reality of the situation more than anything.
People are not just discriminated against by intentional actions,but also by structural bias.
The only way to resolve this is to ensure everyone has value and also the support to achieve without bias.
How we do this I don't know, but surely the start is to understand and at least acknowledge it.
rydster
Member
You do realise you are showing yourself up on this thread, aye?
Dyna-ti
'You can't handle the truth.'
Rydster, have you forgotten about the windrush scandal? That's one reason why people are protesting the government, the bill boards on vans telling foreigners to go home is another. Constant (brexit fuelled) us and them comments from the government is another.
Your either very ignorant, or a troll.
Then compare the girl in an induced coma and you will see one is a horrific injury, the other a slight bruise about 1″ long under one eye.
The cops seem to using a range of different weapons from rubber/plastic bullets to paintballs (mostly filled with pepper spray but some solid ones as well).
So quite possible he got hit by the latter but sadly didnt pay enough attention to make sure to your satisfaction.
MSP,
That's a really good point. When you look at the enormity of the systemic problems in the US it's hard to know where to start but what you're suggesting is exactly the place to start. Murders by police are more than individual actions, they are joint ventures, by all the officers present and by all those that cover for them.
Same with every investigating officer and prosecutor involved in the Georgia case. All these individuals are as much the problem as the offending officers. They all need to be removed from their posts and prosecuted. Without action like this any progress will be impossible and any words will be no more than platitudes.
Don't forget that a black newscaster (with his camera crew) covering the protests was arrested before the police officer that murdered George Floyd was.