You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
This thread is a safe haven compared to other parts of the internet. Check out (or don’t) the comments.
it still amazes me how comfortable so many people are being openly racist.
I have a friend in Minnesota and some of the footage and stuff going on is crazy
Problem is, at the moment the US Plod are taking the pressure being put on them. At some point if this continues, they will push back and this will escalate horribly.
Maybe my news sources are too liberal but the impression I've got is that the police have pushed back with extreme prejudice and heavy handedness ??!!
...and fair play to SRAM. What have I missed about the BLM manifesto? Genuine question as I just googled the policy agenda and it seems perfectly reasonable
As above, a lot of people on both sides are using this as an excuse to stir up bother in the name of George Floyd when they don’t give a toss about him; just their own agenda.
It's a complex situation, but not one you can simply boil down to troublemakers with their own agenda. I think what we're seeing is an uprising of the lower classes who have been abandoned, exploited and abused by a rich (mostly) white minority who care only about themselves. Their 'agenda' is living in a society with some basic human decency where people aren't left to rot and aren't treated as sub-human because they're black or poor. This is tipping over the edge from a protest against police violence to a revolution.
National Guard Officer shows everyone how it can be done. Don't hide behind a gun in a helmet, get in there.
]
Struggled to imbed the vid, but well played to that man. The more of that goes on the quicker this will calm
A couple of really troubling videos (taken from BBC News)
Well this isn't at all sinister..
https://twitter.com/villanellesboot/status/1267414576846561280?s=20
As long as trump stays in office I fail to see how this situation can be resolved
https://twitter.com/kamchatka_es/status/1267065214597545984?s=21
boomerlives
SubscriberNational Guard Officer shows everyone how it can be done. Don’t hide behind a gun in a helmet, get in there.
I saw a post on another forum pointing out that the national guard have stricter rules of engagement and more accountability than the police do in many states.
America is a failed state. Has been for many, many years. All of the criticisms that came from the 60s and 70s counterculture movement are still valid today, and then some.
The whole country needs to burn to the ground and rebuild itself. The problem is, who takes its place? China? Russia? the EU?
As long as trump stays in office I fail to see how this situation can be resolved
True, but Trump leaving office is no guarantee that it will be fixed either 🙁
True, but Trump leaving office is no guarantee that it will be fixed either
Got to agree. It's difficult not to think that Trump got in because a lot of people were already being failed by existing politics and possibly even our acceptance of current systems.
Those Tweets up there. Not working for anyone else?
Those Tweets up there. Not working for anyone else?
Its a bit random. Some work but usually you have to click on the 'x people are talking about this' link underneath to go to the original tweet and then you can see it
Should be a cautionary tale for the UK: the consequences of unchecked capitalism and a astronomically large wealth gap. Unfortunately we ve got/ we're getting hitched onto this
The US is third world in so many regards.
Anyone who thinks this is a result of a trump government however is sadly incorrect. Police officers were killing innocent black people during the Obama regime, the only difference was that he wasn't more or less championing it on Twitter.
In fact it's almost better that the current buffoon is so open with it, it means they can't hide behind misunderstood policy and grey areas, he is just outwardly, obviously and publicly racist.
It is the Western equivalent of Saudi Arabia / Russia / China etc etc, they have so much in common politically.
The thought of living there is terrifying
The thought of living there is terrifying
I agree, good ol USA is off the scale nuts right now. Police brutality, school shootings, COVID, right wing malitia/racists, a President who makes things worse every day. They seriously need to sort their shit out, quickly.
Anyone who thinks this is a result of a trump government however is sadly incorrect.
Some blame can be clearly laid at his feet, he's both encouraged shooting of protesters (US Citizens) and he's clearly abdicated all responsibility for taking any sort of leadership, or calming role.
As a very distant observer I don’t understand what’s going on, Clearly the cop was wrong and has been rightly arrested and charged. I don’t understand why that then turns into riots. If people want to protest peacefully then great, let them as they have the right to do so but why the violence, why the looting? As others have said the USA appears very divided but that seems to be more on wealth than race. Look out how sport is now dominated by non white people earning lottery salaries, same in the entertainment sector, music, acting etc. The previous president was black so clearly it is possible to get to the top if you have enough money behind you
I think what we’re seeing is an uprising of the lower classes who have been abandoned, exploited and abused by a rich (mostly) white minority who care only about themselves. Their ‘agenda’ is living in a society with some basic human decency where people aren’t left to rot and aren’t treated as sub-human because they’re black or poor
Not sure it's the start of a revolution, but I think dazh has it here - it started as a race issue, it's become a wider social issue.
As a very distant observer I don’t understand what’s going on, Clearly the cop was wrong and has been rightly arrested and charged. I don’t understand why that then turns into riots. If people want to protest peacefully then great, let them as they have the right to do so but why the violence, why the looting?
Years of anger and repression coming to the surface. The cop has been charged, the other cops who were with him haven’t and the charges levelled at him aren’t severe enough. I’m not sure how you can’t understand it to be honest. The people have just had enough. The place has been a powder keg for years now. Trump, Covid, unemployment, police brutality and the steady rise of the far right have set it off.
Look out how sport is now dominated by non white people earning lottery salaries, same in the entertainment sector, music, acting etc.
Look at that ... and look at the size of he American prison population and who it consists of - and compare it the prison population of 'all of the rest of the world'
Not sure it’s the start of a revolution, but I think dazh has it here – it started as a race issue, it’s become a wider social issue.
Hedge fund owners have been predicting a social revolution for years due to wealth/social inequality Link last year at Davis (Tudor Jones has a ted talk up from 2015)
AOC scares the shit out of them
The cop has been charged with third degree murder and second degree manslaughter. The others are pending investigation whilst all the evidence comes in and time to analyse it.
The charges seeem appropriate.
How is this getting off light?
If people want to protest peacefully then great, let them as they have the right to do so but why the violence, why the looting?
How naive? Peaceful protest has evidently not worked. What the point in protesting peacefully if no one is listening? Always amazes me that people tolerate and excuse violence when it's perpertrated by emloyees of the state, yet howl in outrage the minute a protestor breaks a window. Millions in the US have nothing left to lose, they've been left with no jobs, no income, and no protection from covid, and if they step out of line they risk being shot by a gun-toting idiot in a uniform. I'm amazed that many of them are still protesting peacefully instead of taking up arms.
A lot of people on both sides? Heard that phrase before somewhere, Not sure if that is what you meant boomerlives.
I meant exactly that.
While some people see an excuse to loot Target the original reason to be on the streets is being eroded.
Some others hide behind a riot shield and a badge and use the opportunity to crack some heads and meet out what they think justice is.
Neither are right. Both think they are on the side of good.
It's all distracting from what BLM are trying to get across
The charges seeem appropriate.
Depends (I had to google this as I'd never heard of it before), 3rd degree murder fits in with the "he was just doing his job" narrative. It's used when a persons actions result in a death but they're indifferent to that. e.g. used to convict drug dealers when a user dies, there's no need for malice or intent.
2nd degree murder would be that he intended to kill George Floyd. It's a tough one as with (minutes (or was it 9?) of him begging that he couldn't breath could be argued that the officer knew he was killing him.
It also downplays the racist element. Even if you don't think the cop was overtly individually racist (but the justice system is and therefore individuals get conditioned by that). As racism would make it more malicious.
It’s not just about George Floyd, him being murdered by police was just a recent example with clear footage that was enough to trigger off protests . There’s been a load of other incidents but footage either doesn’t exist (cops not turning on body cams or the footage getting ‘lost’) or is poor quality or from a bad angle that allows for debate over what happened so the police haven’t been forced to take action and the cop has just ended up on a short period of paid leave. Even if they do get sacked they are often quickly reemployed by the force in a neighbouring county, it’s a joke. The police union has way too much power as well
I don't think the cops were charged until after the film became public and after the protests.
I don’t think they would get a conviction out of a second degree murder, you yourself are having a hard time deciding on it.
He will most probably only be convicted of manslaughter.
Charging a cop is complex and takes time, by forcing the police to charge him quickly I think they will have a worst case.
The charges seeem appropriate.
How is this getting off light?
He knelt on a man’s neck until that man died. Said man begged for him to stop and repeatedly outlined that he couldn’t breathe. This went on for nine minutes. He murdered him, second or first degree should be the charge. How did George Floyd pose a threat exactly?
There are also other (eight I read) reports against this officer of overtly racist behaviour. They should be launching the book at that cops face with a trebuchet and making an example of him. They won’t though and the cops in the US will carry on acting as the racist thugs they are. Without some serious changes with how the police are held to account in the US this sort of thing will just continue to happen.
I used to hang around here a bit in ye olde dayes - working from home means I'm visiting again.
Currently living in Richmond VA. Quite a lot of trouble over the weekend, from windows smashed to a bus and buildings set on fire. There are hundreds of legitimate reasons for people to protest about race and violence and they range from casual to systemic.
Moving here from the UK blew my mind on a lot of levels. Seeing police with almost no skills between "shout" and 'shoot" is so different from British police and their methods. A potentially armed population does change things, but not that much.
The institutionalized racism isn't always obvious to a white man who didn't grow up here. Some is, some isn't. I've worked to treat living here like a field trip and never stopped trying to learn. In some ways, America is quite like the UK. In so many other ways the differences are astounding. A lot of the problems here are the same as others around the world. A lot are uniquely American, and America has layers upon layers to try and get through, and not everyone wants to get through them.
Police brutality, especially white police on black citizens, is endemic and has been for decades.
Peaceful protest is an oxymoron. Martin Luther is rightly eulogied for his enormous contribution.
It is a myth however that it was peaceful protest that bought about the Civil Rights legislation. Do we really think it would have passed without the threat that was posed by Malcolm X and particularly the Black Panthers, who took up arms against the police and seceded from the state, setting up a parallel social infrastructure.
What's the demand Inkster?
chrismac
Subscriber
As a very distant observer I don’t understand what’s going on, Clearly the cop was wrong and has been rightly arrested and charged. I don’t understand why that then turns into riots.
MSP
Subscriber
I don’t think the cops were charged until after the film became public and after the protests.
I think this is what sparked a lot of the original protests because it looked like no action was going to be taken. Perhaps if he had been immediately arrested (and charged) the situation would not have escalated as badly.
chrismac
SubscriberAs a very distant observer I don’t understand what’s going on, Clearly the cop was wrong and has been rightly arrested and charged. I don’t understand why that then turns into riots. If people want to protest peacefully then great, let them as they have the right to do so but why the violence, why the looting? As others have said the USA appears very divided but that seems to be more on wealth than race
This isn't the only time this has happened. This happens a lot more than you see reported. It turned into mass protests.
Some of the violence comes from those protesting. Some of the violence comes from others attaching themselves to the protesting for other reasons. Some of the violence comes from the police. There's more and more news coming through of groups, some right wing, whose people have been out there mixing it up. In my local city there's footage of a group of white men armed with rifles out last night. Friends in the city say those protesting largely went home, and they saw lots of young idiots taking advantage of the situation after that. Police are using baton rounds, mace, tear gas, armed vehicles etc and very aggressive tactics.
Why can't America be divided on wealth AND race? Seriously, I never appreciated the racial aspect until I lived here.
We can debate what the straw was that broke the camel's back but this was inevitable, as someone mentioned earlier, the hedge fund managers have been expecting it for ages.
Would it have made a difference if the four policemen had been arrested and charged immediately? Maybe, but it would have only postponed the inevitable, until the next video goes viral.
The problems are far more systemic than that, from the voting in of police comissioners, funding the police through fining the public, so they prey on the poor and the Black especially, to the militarization of the police, the prison industrial complex, massive Republican led voter disenfranchisement and the political gerrymandering of districts creating a 21st Century version of segregation.
Don't expect peacfull protest and opening up a 'conversation about race' to achieve anything. As Malcom X said: You've got to make unreasonable demands to make reasonable gains'
inkster
MemberDon’t expect peacfull protest and opening up a ‘conversation about race’ to achieve anything. As Malcom X said: You’ve got to make unreasonable demands to make reasonable gains
Yep. There's a reason people remember Rodney King's name, 20 years on. And corona has proved once again how much the US appraises things in terms of economic impact.
This is worth reading for some context:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minneapolis-police-rendered-44-people-unconscious-neck-restraints-five-years-n1220416
Resources for anti racism learning here. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ko1dRVSUtpDntIZ5SrewALLhcMDuhe69Om31oOHIkh8/mobilebasic
It's not a question of good cop bad cop, they're only doing the job for which they've been trained and equipped. In a crisis you get an extreme response. A few die, many intimidated, some apologies for a bad apple and a promise that it won't happen again till next time.
mehr
Subscriber
The ****Mayor of Simp City
@jusalotofpain
This video of Grand Rapids PD firing a tear gas canister at an unarmed man (right after they maced him) point blank to the face needs to VIRAL. what in the actual **** are these pigs doingEmbedded video
By playing this video you agree to Twitter's use of cookiesLearn moreOK
24.7K
03:05 - 2 Jun 2020
Twitter Ads information and privacy
18.5K people are talking about this
Posted 27 minutes ago
That is shocking. You can tell by the ricochet how fast that thing is moving. I hope the bloke was ok.
Yup, always the same! 'Lessons have been learnt' is always my favourite!
May have been said before but the difference now is that the police etc have been given a green light to do what they want and now, thanks to Trump, even the City Mayors etc have been undermined.
If many of you are wondering why the cops in the US seem so especially prepared to use violence, violent methods and treat most citizens as if they're going to kill every cop in sight.... You could worse than look into the activities of Lt Col. Grossman and his training methods that have been adopted by many many US police forces; not least (you'll be no doubt hugely surprised to hear) the Minneapolis Police Dept.
Killology - why cops in America want to kill you first and ask questions later
Killology – why cops in America want to kill you first and ask questions later
grim reading. worse is that i got served an advert for a belt phone carrier that looks like a gun holster - I wonder what demographic could happily walk around with one of those on...
Policing, protest and changes to COVID-19 control measures ...
This paper responds to a Home Office commission to SAGE/SPI-B Security and
Policing Sub-Group for expert advice about the COVID-19 risks from public protest in
the event that lockdown is eased. The commission was received on Tuesday 28th April
2020.
Now the US military are flying helicopters at extremely low level over protesters, in contravention of FAA rules, the crews are fully armed with night-vision equipment, and it seems the FBI are involved, plus the US Coast Guard have been flying an unarmed Reaper drone as well.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33802/military-helicopters-descend-on-washington-in-bizarre-very-low-altitude-show-of-force
The UK model of police enforcement has been very restrained. Our expectation is that this approach of engage, explain, encourage and enforce has helped support high levels of legitimacy for police action and Government policy among the public. The associated strong levels of ‘self-regulation’ seem likely to be carried forward.
you do realise when spoken with a Southern US drawl it sounds like “blast ‘em with tasers”, right?
https://twitter.com/jysexton/status/1267456621615218694?s=21
The most accurate summary of why trump has gained power in the USA from a Georgia professor, well worth a read (will only take a few mins)
Now the psychopath-in-chief has peaceful protestors tear gassed just to allow him free passage to stand in front of a church with a Bible in his hand to pose and pontificate. Scumbag.
https://apnews.com/09f54acd0aadf861ea3aadc5b79c0fd8
I think the whole system there is broken, everyone has access to automatic weapons and more, the Police have become heavy handed because they're argument can always be "the suspect may have been carrying a hand gun/automatic rifle etc", gun crime just breeds more gun crime, and there does not seem to be much in way in of investigation when it does go wrong, with systemic racism seemingly the norm in many Police forces.
You then have a penal system run as a big business with a hugely disproportionate number of black prisoners, essentially locked up to work in factories producing goods for sale in private jails providing a free work force.
Finally you have a President who projects an image that this is reasonable, that gun crime is part of constitution and all it takes is a bible and "thoughts and prayers" to appease his followers.
I was stationed on an American base in Germany for a while and remain friends with some of the guys, all Trump supporters, and some of the comments over the last few days have been a real eye-opener.
nickc,
Thanks for hat Killology link. The US police are literally bandits. With homeowners losing more to asset forfeiture than burglary, you are more likely to get robbed by the police than the robbers.
I mentioned Ferguson on here a few days ago, and the degree to which the police had robbed the public there (up 500% in the year before Mike Brown's murder.) It was also where we saw the full extent of police militarization. US police declared war on the (black) public some time ago. The police are an army without the training. Bandits.
US police declared war on the (black) public some time ago. The police are an army without the training. Bandits.
That sounds hyperbolic to me. At least make some demands. Revolution is for the irresponsible and adolescent.
That sounds hyperbolic to me. At least make some demands. Revolution is for the irresponsible and adolescent.
Oppression is for sensible adults?
Revolution is for the irresponsible and adolescent.
No, it’s for the desperate.
rydster,
Like me sat here in the UK making demands is going to change anything! I'll give it a go though, just for you.
Put an end to voter supression, which denies citizens (particularly of colour) their citizenship.
Appoint police chiefs and sheriff's, don't put these positions up for election as those that vote them in always end up voting for Judge Dredd.
Curtail the power of police unions.
De-militarise the police, take their toys away from them.
Stop funding the police through the fining of the public and asset forfeiture.
Make it impossible for fired police officers to get re hired by other police departments.
Dismantle the prison industrial complex.
All of these things are the cornerstones of police brutality and State oppression. By state oppression I mean not only the Federal State but the individual States. The lack of Federal oversight of policing is perhaps the biggest systemic reason that the US is so plucked up.
Is that hyperbolic enough for you?
As I posted earlier, peaceful protest is an oxymoron.
Someone posted a link here that put it more eloquently.
'The only thing worse than rebellion is that which causes rebellion'
Unless you have a demand then your 'protest' is either a pose or wantonly destructive.
It's all well and good saying that racism must end but there is no consensus as to what racism actually is.
Civil rights movement wanted equality before the law for example re ending segregation and equal voting rights.
BLM has a bonkers wish list of nonsense.
I'm not saying there aren't real issues to be addressed but they need properly articulating.
It’s all well and good saying that racism must end but there is no consensus as to what racism actually is.
There’s certainly a consensus amongst most lucid people. It’s hardly complicated
noun prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior
BLM has a bonkers wish list of nonsense.
Source for the list please
There’s certainly a consensus amongst most lucid people. It’s hardly complicated
noun prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior
That doesn't address the issue of so-called systemic racism perpetrated by social structure and institutions. This is one thing the protests want 'abolishing'.
I'm not saying this doesn't exist but it also can't be pinned down unproblematically either. For example, Critical Race Theory says that core economic and social systems in the West such as Capitalism and liberal-democracy are immanently racist by being built on racist meta-narratives. That's interesting but it's also not clear what can be done short of setting fire to everything if that's true.
There are many in the humanities who think that race should be abandoned as a concept because it's so protean and nebulous. There is no academic consensus regarding what race is.
rydster.....
You say 'civil rights movement wanted equality before the law, the ending of segregation and equal voting rights.'
Let's start there shall we? Is this not what the protesters today are demanding.... still?
You've answered your own question. The 'demands' of the Civil Rights movement have not been met. Those gains that were achieved 50 years ago have been back pedaled ever since. The same thing happened after the abolition of slavery, within 50 years, by the 1930's a new tyrany had been legaly set up to reverse many of the freedoms achieved.
Outrageous demands..
BLM’s #WhatMatters2020 will focus on the following issues:
- Racial Injustice
- Police Brutality
- Criminal Justice Reform
- Black Immigration
- Economic Injustice
- LGBTQIA+ and Human Rights
- Environmental Conditions
- Voting Rights & Suppression
- Healthcare
- Government Corruption
- Education
- Commonsense Gun Laws
If those objectives are an issue, then you are the issue. How they are achieved is up to governments to resolve, and if they don't then the situation that has arisen is what happens.
The ‘demand’ is that the problems get fixed.
How they get fixed is a job for a progressive government through policy decisions and engagement with the communities and people they serve. Understanding the problems and defining them is part of that job but step one is to acknowledge there is a problem and genuinely start the job of fixing...
It isn’t and shouldn’t be up to protesters to define the solution detail by tiny detail, their goal is to demand change and for their voice to be heard.
Revolution is for the irresponsible and adolescent.
It’s not, unfortunately it is a necessary catalyst for long lasting change as history has shown. Not always for the better I hasten to add. Calling it irresponsible and adolescent is rather, well, irresponsible and adolescent really.
There are many in the humanities who think that race should be abandoned as a concept because it’s so protean and nebulous. There is no academic consensus regarding what race is.
I think that’s what us non-academics have largely reached a consensus on and like to describe, in non-nebulous fashion, as a right load of old bollocks
You’ve as much chance of abandoning race as a concept as you have of abandoning breathing as a concept. As Trumps America is presently demonstrating on a global scale
Probably just me, but it seems that in England a police officers attitude is ‘I uphold the law’. Whereas in America the attitude seems to be ‘I AM the law’
It's even deeper than that.
Pretty much all of American society is based on power, and the heirarchy associated with that. Now I don't get my knowledge of America exclusively from TV, but it's interesting to see the subtle things that come out in the cultural output. For example - you can be summarily fired from your job pretty easily. This means that your boss has a lot of power over you. So you get things like 'ooh don't say that about the boss' and the powerful person has to be pandered to because he'll fire you. Countless movies contain the 'you'll never work in this town again' threat, because people have power and they can get people to do whatever they want without accountability. I've had so many conversations in which threats are thrown into the language as a matter of course, I don't think many speakers even realise they do it. Look at how often the day is saved in movies by violence from the good guys against the baddies.
This manifests itself in many ways but rampant machismo is very obvious. People threaten each other with violence and other reprisals all the time - it's about threats and domination. So men (it mostly is) are all trying to dominate one way or the other. This is why there are so many gun nuts - they crave power, and they think the guns give them that. Even 'responsible' gun owners talk about the battle they'll have with the baddie who tries to get them. Why would they talk about it? Because they are fantasising about it. Guns are an absolutely massive part of this. US drivers don't shout and swear at each other, mostly. Once whilst driving I beeped at someone and gesticulated, my then GF said 'don't do that - he might have a gun'. So people are living under constant threat of violence from people who wish to dominate.
This is the behaviour that Trump and the cops are displaying. They wish to dominate by force and threats, because that's how society works there to a large extent.
An interesting dichotomy at play - lots of videos of US cops being docks, but also some of US cops being cool, taking a knee, imploring colleagues to join them, etc. Also some vids of agitators getting pinged by protestors - lots of stuff going on...
It isn’t and shouldn’t be up to protesters to define the solution detail by tiny detail,
Governments make laws and policy. We should be very clear what they can and can't deliver.
If I protest about 'economic justice' and demand the gov deliver it for me we have a problem of 'economic justice' being ill-defined and under-articulated. How will I signal to the government what it is substantively than they need to achieve? What does success look like formally?
It’s not, unfortunately it is a necessary catalyst for long lasting change as history has shown
It's my experience that westerners talking glibly about revolution have never experienced one.
I’m not talking glibly, just stating it as a historical fact. Revolutions have happened throughout history as catalysts to massive change. France, Russia, Haiti, Cuba, China, Austria, Iran, Italy etc. Are you disputing that fact?
Where I’m from has absolutely no bearing on it. Although I’m from Europe where there has been a shit tonne of revolutions over the years. Were they all irresponsible and adolescent? How different would the world be if they hadn’t have happened?
It’s my experience that westerners talking glibly about revolution have never experienced one.
Surely ‘westerners’ have experienced plenty of revolutions, as they have a tendency to be on the receiving end of them?
Or are academics now saying we should no longer recognise colonialism as a concept?
If I protest about ‘economic justice’ and demand the gov deliver it for me we have a problem of ‘economic justice’ being ill-defined and under-articulated. How will I signal to the government what it is substantively than they need to achieve?
It would start with a government saying:
We hear you, we understand that there is a problem, let’s engage with the groups affected to fully understand the problem, and then we’ll describe how we intend to change/invoke policy to fix it, if you agree with those changes (either by voting that gov in/back in to power) then we can move forward. Along with constant review and engagement with those people that are affected.
Or words and actions to that effect.
A big part of the problem is that there have been decades of the ‘we hear that you’re angry’ bit without much of the rest, or even worse, a demonstrable worsening of the situation.
Demanding individual changes is all well and good but won’t do much to tackle a systemic societal issue, and could even run the risk of a ‘we did the bit you asked for why aren’t you happy now?’ situation.
Real leadership and a genuine desire to tackle issues at a societal level are what’s needed, nobody is offering that (yet), and very few in power are even willing to entertain the idea of it.
So you want the gov to figure out what you want?
If they don't figure out "stop killing black people", we're in trouble.