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That post is way over the line mehr. An apology is in order.
EDIT
I took issue with squirellking when he suggested I saw the Police as fair game, I thought he'd overstepped the mark with that comment and told him so but to be fair, he didn't call me a terrorist or say it with pictures. He might be displeased with me be he played the ball, not the man.
Ummm, cromolyolly which question were you answering?
The one where non compliance warrants being shot by the police on the street without trial, or the one asking if black people deserve the respect and protection white people expect to receive?
The truth is that even if he hadn't resisted arrest there's still a very real and disproportionate chance that he may have been shot or strangled by the police.
You also object to the language I've used in calling the attempt on his life by an officer of the state an attempted execution, which is the legal punishment of killing someone. Given that very few officers are disciplined for killing black people in their custody and care that's exactly what this is, he was using lethal force with the intention of killing him and would most likely have gotten away with it. What would you call it and why?
I'm not sure what tweet you are referring to, but the BLM movement has been very restrained and I know that I've been biting my tongue most of the time to choose my words carefully as anti-racists are judged to be the aggressors, it's more acceptable to call someone a N* rather than racist in our society.
I agree that we need more empathy, just don't use it to gaslight.
You seem to be suggesting that a failure to comply with the police warrants a death sentence, is that really the kind of country you want to live in?
No, I'm suggesting that had he complied, according to the version of events you relayed, he would probably be sitting at home now or in a cell.
I have already made it very clear that I in no way endorse the use of lethal force used in this situation. Perhaps in other situations (where there is imminent threat to life with no chance of otherwise resolving) it is but in this case there were clearly other options available but not pursued. Again, bad training.
I provided a quote without any context because the the paradigm that the quote contains doesn’t need any context
I disagree for the reasons I've already outlined. I'm not going to flog this horse any further. You can do what you like with your box but if you are suggesting if I don't "jump out" (or, as I see it, just blindly agree with everything you say) that somehow makes me a fascist then you will receive a similarly robust rebuttal. Be careful with your words.
I must say the tone of this discussion has taken a very nasty turn, some of you would do well to take a long hard look at yourselves and consider how your actions only serve to feed the agendas of the real fascists and white supremacists.
EDIT:
I took issue with squirellking when he suggested I saw the Police as fair game, I thought he’d overstepped the mark with that comment and told him so but to be fair, he didn’t call me a terrorist or say it with pictures. He might be displeased with me be he played the ball, not the man.
Thank you, I think I'd rather just put this to bed, you've said your piece and I've said mine. The context is now clear so I'd rather discuss the meaning rather than what may have been said.
it’s more acceptable to call someone a N* rather than racist in our society
Really.....really...?.just really!!!!
I disagree for the reasons I’ve already outlined. I’m not going to flog this horse any further. You can do what you like with your box but if you are suggesting if I don’t “jump out” (or, as I see it, just blindly agree with everything you say) that somehow makes me a fascist then you will receive a similarly robust rebuttal. Be careful with your words.
Yeah, well, you know - you have no sympathy with the unarmed man shot 7 times in the back at point-blank range, so crack on with your self-sympathy.
Squirrelking,
I have taken a long hard look at myself and I am conscious of how what I say may feed the agendas of real fascists and white supremacists. The thing is they have an agenda that they have been enacting for some while and I feel duty bound to resist that agenda, I don't see silence as an option.
I feel much the same way as Faerie, in that I am constantly biting my lip and have done so over the years posting on here. I have resisted saying things for fear of being seen as too earnest, rocking the boat or simply being misunderstood. Given the current state of affairs I don't think now is the time to censor myself or to compromise. For me the issue is all or nothing.
Even in the midst of a generational pandemic it appears that racism poses the greatest threat to our democratic, open societies. One flaw with the kind of representative democracies we live in is that they fail black people, not necessarily by design but by metrics. Black peoples aspirations for fair and equal representation cannot be met through the ballot box when they represent only 10 percent of the population. They need our help.
I just saw a documentary on BBC1 about the BLM protests in the UK. In it a young black girl articulated that if she makes friends with a white person she wants to see them put even more effort into advocating for racial justice than she herself does. She understood the problem inherrent in our 'representative' democracy. She was asking for our help.
crikey
Member
Can this be closed now?It’s increasingly apparent that it’s just a bad tempered shambles.
No. A thousand times no. This is an extremely difficult and emotive topic - but it absolutely has to be discussed, even if it becomes enormously uncomfortable. That's the whole point: it's literally a matter of life and death for part of society in the US, and part of complex of wider issues in other countries.
I think the tone here is fairly representative of the tone in real life..... maybe more sensible/balanced, if anything.
As much as it's awful to see a child picking up an assault rifle and shooting protesters dead (Jesus ****!) - that is the reality of where they are in the US, and it's at least happening in pain view for all the word to see. It's great to see NBA teams now flatly refusing to play - and a basketball pundit unclip his mike and walk off set live in dignified solidarity. Stuff like that matters.
However, I fear that the current administration is SO overtly racist, and inexorably tied to groups who are racist either by intent or correlation (eg: evangelical Christians), the current situation is just going to go further into a escalation spiral until SOMEBODY steps forward with a genuine commitment to take this whole suite of issues seriously. The only person that can do that is Biden..... just because he's the only alternative to Trump. But we are still too far away from the election - whole cities will be on fire by then. Biden needs to step in NOW and address the nation as the President-in-waiting. Given the pandemic, widespread civil unrest, fires, charges being brought etc..... I wonder if the Dems can table some sort of vote of no confidence (whatever the US equivalent is), largely symbolic, but at least it would make the Republicans representatives have to think about what side they are choosing - and have that marked down on the record for all to see.
Are you the same person who said on the previous page that you had no sympathy for Jacob Blake? Obvious troll is obvious.
Yeah, well, you know – you have no sympathy with the unarmed man
That's twice now. Let's review what I actually said shall we?
Either way, if that’s true then they may well have good reason to suspect he could be attempting to retrieve a weapon. It’s a horrible situation especially for the kids but if it unfolded as you describe then he has little sympathy from me.
The real question is one of conflict training, restraint and how you go about de-escalating a situation without resorting to shooting. If he’d been tazered rather than shot he would just be another idiot
Emphasis on little. Not none. Of course I feel sympathy for the fact he was shot completely needlessly however I am also pointing the out fact that according to Faerie's version of events he contributed to the situation getting to the point it did by breaking free of his restraints and by failing to do as he was told. The police were absolutely right to pursue him and to use force to detain him however the application of said force was not proportional to the threat he presented. Condemning one party does not make the other blameless despite whatever mental gymnastics you wish to perform.
But feel free to continue twisting my words and just making up utter nonsense, way to fight the good fight.
I think the tone here is fairly representative of the tone in real life….. maybe more sensible/balanced, if anything.
I respectfully disagree, that's 3 pages I've repeatedly explained my position over and STILL people choose to deliberately misquote, misinterpret and slander me. If you think accusing someone ON YOUR OWN SIDE of white supremacy with no apology to show for it is sensible or balanced then god help us all.
trump live now giving his address to the RNC, I've watched most of the RNC bullshit t'night and if they/he gets back in its gonna get a lot darker over the coming 4 years
I think the tone here is fairly representative of the tone in real life….. maybe more sensible/balanced, if anything.
I respectfully disagree, that’s 3 pages I’ve repeatedly explained my position over and STILL people choose to deliberately misquote, misinterpret and slander me. If you think accusing someone ON YOUR OWN SIDE of white supremacy with no apology to show for it is sensible or balanced then god help us all.
I didn't say it was sensible or balanced.... I said it was maybe MORE sensible and balanced than the tone in real life - where exactly the same thing is happening: people are finding this hard to talk about with accusations of fascism, white supremacy and allsorts getting handed out like biscuits.
Ah okay, gotcha.
In amongst the bull shit and point scoring theres some really interesting points being made on this thread. One thing that I havent managed to separate are socio economics and racism. Are the likes of Boris and Trump outright racists or is there disdain for the poor in general bigger. Obviously both court racists and have made racist comments but do they dislike ethnic minorities more than just poor people. I guess my thinking is that as with feminism meaning equal rights for males the BLM movement will mean things improve for all socially disadvantaged groups. Or have I just not had enough coffee yet this morning.
I think socio economics and racism are two sides of the same coin in many respects, it's dislike of different, the BAME community get hit twice, they are ethnicaly different and socio economically different.
But I think a lot is do with people's economic status, people with low incomes naturally absorb more of the welfare budget, tend to me be more involved in criminal activity (which when you are on the margins of society I can see why) and wider society likes to write people like this off. For historic reasons, first generation immigrants are often bottom of the socio economic ladder, later generations often get trapped in a mindset there are no opportunities for them based on their parents experience and here's the nub of it. They are right, there is racism in our society, it does close doors to people, it makes it more difficult to be socially mobile, but we don't have the class system or overt racism we had 50 years ago that meant a working class person or a person of colour would automatically be barred from many jobs (and women).
We have moved on, a lot, still got a long way to go and we've still got to grapple with the other issues, for every person striving to overcome the insidious barriers in society there are many people who make zero effort and expect things to be handed to them, how do we engage those people, we need social mobility for everyone, the remaining class structure and racism is the only block to people's mobility, in many cases it's the individuals own attitudes, often understandable, that stigmatise and hold them back.
Unfortunately what ever is done needs to bring the bulk of the population along as well, move too fast or superficially and fundamentals don't change, I think we've seen that with Brexit, turns out there is a much bigger pool of latent racism out there than many of us thought. This is the problem some of the posters on here can't see, screaming at people that if they aren't actively campaigning for BLM makes you part of the problem, that's a really good way to disengage people on the journey to where you want them to be and slow that change of culture down.
I guess my thinking is that as with feminism meaning equal rights for males the BLM movement will mean things improve for all socially disadvantaged groups.
Intersectional?
Yeah probably, by improving outcomes for one general group you should by default improve them for others along the way. I think it's important what side of the Venn diagram you target though, more so when discrimination is involved, but not to the detriment of the other.
What your describing AA is systemic racism 101. In Boris case is suspect I’m right in that no one sits in no 10 deliberately concocting a plan for the country that deliberately target to screw ethnic minorities.
Yet, they fail to address the issues because of unconscious bias towards the middle Indigenous population and systemic trend. Hence, we have no “Racial Bias” legislation. There is no legislated direction for identifying and reducing system racism In schools or government institutions, there’s rare injections of education in racial or cultural need. When is the last time that anyone in this thread had a person of authority pull them to one side and offer a lesson in system racism to help fix a biased they recognised?
Our society is unconsciously biased to ignore that and worse conditioned to treat people in the BAME category as colonial subservient through hundreds of years of accepted truth. It is not acceptable, people need to be taught as such and educated to the differences that make us all unique. That needs to come from the top but not dismissed as a responsibility for those at the bottom - vis a vis its not more acceptable for Granma Jones to refer to N****** than it is for Boris Johnson to unconsciously legislate for white bias.
Only when our core society recognises Overtly we do treat BAME equally do we stand a chance. Put your hand up and admit you have no idea of what it means to be black, that you want to understand. Take an action to get involved and educated, stand up for your fellow human no matter what colour or creed and call out those that don’t.
Edit, here’s an example; in a recent thread a regular asked what to do to help his wife enjoy his birthday. He got lots of advice and several monetary offers pretty quickly.
Has anyone offered to help Faerie? (I’m not looking to apportion blame btw)
What your describing AA is systemic racism 101.
That is no doubt correct but it wasnt the crux of my point, which I admit even I am struggling articulate!
I bet poor white people are more likely to be shot by Merican cops than rich white people so making them less likely to shoot would benefit all. But as you say is Boris a racist, maybe not conciously, does he discriminate against the poor, very much so, is he trying to do that I reckon yes, do ethnic minorities get hit more often, very much so.
Intersectional?
Yeah probably, by improving outcomes for one general group you should by default improve them for others along the way. I think it’s important what side of the Venn diagram you target though, more so when discrimination is involved, but not to the detriment of the other.
Well put, thanks!
Has anyone offered to help Faerie
Who are they and what issues have they got?
'Intersectional' is a v useful concept here. The whole edifice of capitalism is not built just on racism or sexism, although they are used variously to distract and divide. The fight for equality must recognise sectional differences but to overemphasize race and gender means to divide the working class and the 'struggle for equality' becomes displaying your purity by 'calling people out.' Blimey, the ANL didn't stop the NF by tweets and screeches, it was a bit more serious than that.
The Tory party have been pretty good at getting people from minority backgrounds to argue their case, as the late Arthur Armitage, VC of Manchester University, said during a debate about disinvesting in apartheid, 'it's not just a black and white issue'. We did laugh but it's true, capitalism is built on class relations (with lollie to invest from slavery) and that has to be the focus of an organised fightback whilst acknowledging and addressing intersectional issues. If you just focus on race and gender, we'd end up celebrating Mrs Mugabe and the garment industry in Leicester is full of minority people exploiting minority people. Class!
Who are they and what issues have they got?
I thought you'd read the thread? Perhaps have a deeper delve...
I thought you’d read the thread?
Nope just some of it.
Perhaps have a deeper delve…
Is it a secret you cant utter? Seems strange that you castigate people for not helping this person but dont want to reveal their issues.
Just read back a few pages.
But feel free to continue twisting my words and just making up utter nonsense, way to fight the good fight.
Maybe, just maybe, have a think about how entering a debate centered around race with an apologist approach to the actions of the police, have a think about how that makes you look. I know you'll just defend it again, but try and think.
Hi A_A, I'm faerie. I'm a parent who has witnessed and experienced abhorrent racism of all forms, from the overt violent to the insidious systemic discrimination of institutions, including the Parliament and the police, as well as education. It has been through necessity that I have had to raise issues with the institutions and educate myself to understand and counter their arguments. In doing so I've mapped institutional racism in Scottish education, from playground to Parliament which covers the failure of policy, practice, legislation and society.
I'm an autistic accidental activist, playing by the rules I've raised my issues with every agency and individual concerned through emails and meetings with everyone from the head teacher, community, chief executive of the council, police, MSP's, MP's, Ministers, academics, agencies, lawyers and media. The problem is that the rules are designed to take you in circles, much like the arguments on the Internet.
I've exhausted the official routes of complaint, meanwhile the situation is getting worse for my kids and B.A.M.E people. When racism flares up in the news my kids suffer, and the people who are supposed to protect them explain it away and tell my black kids to be less conspicuous, essentially because white people don't understand and can't control themselves.
It's truly shocking and as a parent it is terrifying. I ride my bike to escape it all, yet I see these threads as I smile at other riders, wondering if my kids would be welcome.
What do we do next?
As to wether Boris and Trump are racists i'd say racist is as racist does. To discuss wether or not they are racists individually is a distraction.
To argue wether they personally racist, or or are simply exploiting the issue of race for political gain is to argue a moot point. Whatever the intention it is the outcome that matters and the outcome will be the same either way.
Seems strange that you castigate people for not helping this person but dont want to reveal their issues.
I'm not castigating anyone nor seeking to argue with you, they have a freedom of choice in what they do. I'm merely pointing out that the call to help a persons wife birthday was overflowing with help within minutes, yet (see above) a person clearly having difficulties with a racial problem appears not to have received an offer*
*This may not be true, I can't see personal comms, DM's etc.
I'm suggesting its an example of how unconscious (probably) bias away from racial issue in general society is easily demonstrable here.
I'm struggling to see how a Darth Vader penis puppet is going to be helpful in this situation.
batfink,
Allow me to conflate the two points you raised. The sports teams, managers and pundits making a stand is very significant. A Culture War is exactly that, a battle for ideas played out in the cultural arena, Sports and the Arts essentially. By withdrawing their labour, the players have a far greater impact than any political speech.
I mentioned above how democracy doesn't work for small minorities, if every black person voted for the same person the numbers still wouldn't add up, their vote doesn't have the same agency as ours. If your primary political concern is how the state treats you with racial bias it becomes quite easy to see why many black people don't vote, sure, things are worse under Trump but to be honest things have always been shit. Biden doesn't have the answers, the Democrats don't have the answers, this is going to play out in the broader cultural sphere.
I posted a while back that things will progress to another level when the crowds return to football in the UK. It was suggested by someone that the racists would be even more angered and up the level of abuse. This won't happen, all the players will walk off and there will be no football. Sports stadiums will become political arenas, global platforms that wont be disrupted by racists because the racists will have been kicked out of the building or will withdraw their patronage now that the football stadium is no longer a safe space for them to vent their bile. This will have a knock on effect beyond the BLM issue to have a positive effect for other minorities and decent people as well, making the experience of going to a football match an all round more pleasant experience. Sport in general will move away from tribalism.
it wont be easy, more videos will appear on youtube and there's a slew of court cases coming up that could well be a source of further disturbance. I obviously hope that Biden wins but I'm equally fearful that a Biden victory might put out the fire whilst leaving the embers still burning. Should Biden win, BLM should be on his case every bit as much as they are Trump. The changes that need to occur need to happen instantly, we can't allow them to be bogged down by political process. Culture is better at precipitating instant change than politics.
Some problems are easier to offer help to than others, if someone wants to build a bike or is a bit short of money, it is easy to offer spare bike parts or to chip into a collection. It is a completely different thing to offer anything but sympathy and platitudes to someone talking about the institutional racism their kids have had to suffer. I don't have a solution to offer, even though I agree, understand and wish it were different, there is nothing I can offer today that makes it better.
The most power I have is to vote for progressive change when the opportunity is presented, argue for what is right and try to hold to task those who try and deny the problem. Which I though was working, until populism drove spikes into the cracks, weaponised race, and took progress back a couple of decades.
What do we do next?
If you're on about cycling specifically... both media and bike brands can see that they need to do a lot more to make it clear that you and your children are as welcome as anyone else... and they want to it... but are struggling... it's hard... an offer of help from you to a bike mag or company would be received very positively, I suspect. That help might be as small as offering to feature in ride photos, or you might be able to contribute to an article.
a person clearly having difficulties with a racial problem appears not to have received an offer
Personally, I've been avoiding this thread. It seems to attract some people keen to show off that they have no empathy for someone shot in the back six times, or their family, or for millions of people who have to live in fear of the police because of the colour of their skin. I'm sure plenty of other people are more likely to read the birthday thread than would read past page one of this thread.
If it helps, I've read this one but not the wife's birthday thread.
* doing my own bit for balance since 1958.
I’m sure plenty of other people are more likely to read the birthday thread than would read past page one of this thread.
What does that tell us though? I'd leap to the emotive conclusion that those people don't see, or want to identify with race as an issue enough to get involved.
MSP,
Sometimes progress is a chimera. it's not that progress has gone backwards a couple of decades, it's that the problem has been sublimated for a couple of decades. What we are seeing now is not what is happening now it's what has been happening for decades only we chose not too look. As a nation we prided ourselves on being less racist than other countries. We were complacent.
I think the artist Dave put it best with his Brit awards performance:
"The least racist, is still racist,
and if somebody hasn't said it,
equality is a right, it doesn't deserve credit."
We can, as you say express our sympathies by voting for the least worst option at the ballot box but is becoming abundantly apparent that politics doesn't have all the answers, we can't absolve ourselves at the ballot box, a voting slip is not a sacrament.
I don't have the answers either but the first step is to acknowledge what we have ignored for far too long and how we might be complicit by acquiescing to the 'least racist' narrative.
I'd hazard a guess that most people on this mountain bike website know that this thread is way more likely to be populated by worthy gobshites than one about birthdays...
I’d leap to the emotive conclusion that those people don’t see, or want to identify with race as an issue enough to get involved
Many people want to avoid any internet discussions about race for many reasons... and, yes, some might avoid it because they have no interest in it, or do not care, which is a sad state of affairs... but many, and as I said this is my reason for abandoning this thread long ago, want to avoid having to engage with the "I'm not a racist but he had it coming" scum who pollute these discussions wherever they appear online.
worthy gobshites
Well, you avoided using the word woke, clever you.
Crikey
When echo chambers go bad...
Do you mean that a different perspective has been expressed and supported, rather than solidifying your moral values?
Can this be closed now?
Increasingly apparent that it's just a bad tempered shambles
Is it making you uncomfortable to see people discussing difficult issues, making mistakes and forgiving?
I’d hazard a guess that most people on this mountain bike website know that this thread is way more likely to be populated by worthy gobshites than one about birthdays…
Nothing left to contribute other than insult?
I'd rather it wasn't necessary to have these conversations at all, but I'm glad that we are able to discuss them on a mtb forum with people who wouldn't ordinarily be aware of them. You may wonder what relevance it has to mtb, but it's a sport dominated by middle class white males, which should be welcoming and accessible to all. We're open about discussing mental and physical health, trail access, politics and coffee machines, why single out race as irrelevant, but also affects forum users lives and access to the trails?
When racism flares up in the news my kids suffer, and the people who are supposed to protect them explain it away and tell my black kids to be less conspicuous, essentially because white people don’t understand and can’t control themselves.
It’s truly shocking and as a parent it is terrifying. I ride my bike to escape it all, yet I see these threads as I smile at other riders, wondering if my kids would be welcome.
What do we do next?
Thanks for posting, sorry if you have been caught up in Krytons and I's continual bickering!
Your first point about those who should be protecting kids not helping, I hope as a teacher I would never do that although words are easy arent they. We get no training on such things or gender issues or sexuality and this no doubt leads to many getting it wrong either by being well meaning idiots or hopefully less common just being wrong thinking.
This chat bored came a long way in a short time on gender issues I think. Threads with random pictures of scantily clad ladies vanished overnight after I presume someone called "us" out on it. Not wishing to make excuses but sometimes if you havent experienced something its hard to spot what you are doing wrong. The middle class, well educated, white majority on here need calling out and I dont think many on here want to upset others or make things worse. Its hard though for me to understand the reason why so few people from ethnic minorities cycle for example. We need educating. So to answer your last point "what do we do next" **** knows, I'd like to have answers and I'd like to think I try my best but really we need telling by people like you.
I mean that this thread has reached the point where any contribution is 'anti racist'. Echo chambers go bad when people try to out 'anti racist' each other and their condemnation becomes more about scoring 'anti racist' points than about anything else.
It has reached the point where a thread about someones birthday is slighted because people offered help that wasn't offered in this thread...
It's all got a bit 6th form common room where people are trying ever so hard to out do one another.
I'm not uncomfortable at all; I'm responsible for my behaviour and I'm content that I do what I can, when I can to treat everyone equally.
On that thought, I could be wrong but I haven’t noticed Singletrack Towers or the cycling community in general engage with the issues that BLM have raised.
Everyone I have spoken to connected to Singletrack and various bike brands are keenly aware they have lots to do, and want to do more, but it's not easy. I'll dig out what Cy @ Cotic wrote about this... feel free to contact anyone connected to Cotic about it... we're all behind Cy trying to find ways of being less shit about these issues... we all need to do far more.
https://www.cotic.co.uk/news/2020/black-lives-matter
I’m responsible for my behaviour and I’m content that I do what I can, when I can to treat everyone equally.
I'm hoping we (I, you, all of us) can find new ways to do more. I'm far from content that I'm even close to doing enough myself. I'm deeply uncomfortable that I've only ridden or chatted with fewer than a handful of riders who aren't white... despite haven met thousands of riders over the decades.
Firstly:
Thanks for posting, sorry if you have been caught up in Krytons and I’s continual bickering!
I keep telling you I'm not arguing with you, maybe its my writing style! 😀
It has reached the point where a thread about someones birthday is slighted
Please be accurate. I didn't slight it, I use it as to highlight comparable offers of assistance, to which MSP then responded I think quite eloquently to help me understand a difference in peoples reaction which I hadn't considered in my reaction.
I keep telling you I’m not arguing with you,
Alright alright
Maybe, just maybe, have a think about how entering a debate centered around race with an apologist approach to the actions of the police, have a think about how that makes you look. I know you’ll just defend it again, but try and think.
Please, please, please read what I wrote! I am not apologising for what they did. A version of events was given and I responded to that with some conclusions. At no point have I ever endorsed what they did, only offered a suggestion that based on the victims actions prior to being shot he may have given them reason to believe he had ill intent. That is absolutely not the same as absolving them of any responsibility for not de-escalating or resolving the situation using non or less violent means.
I have thought long and hard about this which is why I am going to such lengths to defend myself however it is patently obvious that people are focusing on one single aspect of my post rather than what I wrote as a whole.
I also see neither you nor Mehr have seen fit to apologise for your misquoting and slander respectively.
I mean that this thread has reached the point where any contribution is ‘anti racist’. Echo chambers go bad when people try to out ‘anti racist’ each other and their condemnation becomes more about scoring ‘anti racist’ points than about anything else.
Well put. We're all on the same side here, it would do folk well to remember that.
Back on track;
On that thought, I could be wrong but I haven’t noticed Singletrack Towers or the cycling community in general engage with the issues that BLM have raised.
Oh I have. Surly posted an interview with a black cyclist and the Instagram thread reactions were sickening. The same shit you saw when any company showed solidarity with the movement to be honest but the personal abuse in that case was disgusting.
A link to the article https://surlybikes.com/blog/realities_of_a_black_man_in_the_bike_world
Thanks Kelvin and Squirellking for those links. The surly article was particularly revealing, can't think of a better example of where the sometimes disparate concerns of cyclist and BLM coincide so acutely. Also appreciate linking to the Surly and not the Instagram site with the associated bile, (I can imagine how vile it could be so I'll take your word for it)
Incidently, I'm on the look out for a new hardtail, (adds Cotic and Surly to the list). Or rather doesn't remove them from list, unlike Trek, which are definitely off the list after reading that article!
I’m suggesting that had he complied, according to the version of events you relayed, he would probably be sitting at home now or in a cell.
The footage below suggests that non-compliance with an armed police officer is not the issue, it is the fact that the man with the gun doesn’t view the person on the other end as truly human. You can almost see the moment in the footage where The officer thinks to himself is can’t shoot someone for this’ as his bluff is called.
https://twitter.com/shannonsharpe/status/1299783390573465600?s=21
Police-cam footage has just been leaked of the (March 2020) killing of US citizen Daniel Prude. It took me a while to factcheck/find unedited/uncensored footage. Don’t know how long it will be there.
Trump’s USA is now at the point where cops are laughing while having killed a naked, restrained man while he’s compliant and tripping/in need of medical assistance.
It’s clear how this will spin and become a civil/race war in the the US. It’s ****ed. What’s worse is that the UK seems hot on it’s tail.
Are we watching genocide unfold?
Explained away as the victims fault for previous, non compliance, being in the wrong area, driving and even just being black (skin colour = morals according to the misinformed), and arguing my word choice because they feel alienated by the truth.
In the UK we may not have the death rate but we have equal levels of racism, with the government encouraging the statue protectors.
*edit Youtube took the video down so link is broken. Probably for the best.
Full chestcam footage is around 11:58 in length and must be mirrored all over by now. There are a lot of very, very busy censors at work as we speak.
Today feels different again. Even in these weird times I’ve felt so pessimistic about the future since I saw that. Police, up close in HD laughing as they kill a man. I don’t know what I was expecting. Maybe some ambiguity*. Some evidence of hyperbole. No. The verdict of homicide is plain to see, but why was he killed?
RIP Daniel Prude.
Poll: How/does it change things that one of the attendant officers was black?
*Before the inevitable censoring.
In many ways I think things are worse here than in the US. At least in America there's certain conservative / Republican figures who have expressed an understanding of the situation. Over here, nothing. All conservative figures here are either playing the Trump game or remain sickenenigly silent.
To highlight a sticky problem in all of this. Death caused by excessive restraint by police is a thing in the US
The majority of headlines reporting on the killing of Daniel Prude (a man in need of help yet was suffocated by police restraint) refer to him as ‘Daniel Prude, Black Man’
Yet the majority of headlines reporting on the killing of Tony Timpa (a man likewise in need of help and was also suffocated by police restraint) refer to him as ‘Tony Timpa’.
I find it tremendously difficult to effectively encapsulate in words. But the real problem of institutionalised racism is also perpetuated by the focus on ‘black person’
EDIT *problem of institutional racism
In short, how are race-relations to be improved when individuals are yet still referred to by their skin colour/heritage as if it’s a second surname?
"But the real problem of institutionalised racism is also perpetuated by the focus on ‘black person"
While I see the point, I'd also say that when racism plays a part in the actual crime, then it's probably something that should be drawn attention to in the title.
While I see the point, I’d also say that when racism plays a part in the actual crime, then it’s probably something that should be drawn attention to in the title.
How exactly would that be determined in (say) the two cases I compared? I’ve watched both events via the full-length bodycam footage. It’s **** sad and beyond words what happened to both men. Pretty much identical. Both required help. Both in mental crisis and complicated by drug ingestion. Both are compliant. Both are crushed by the people supposed to be helping them, and both die as a result. Both are audibly mocked in their death (by the very people who killed them) yet nothing I see was of a racial nature. So how does one determine if racial bias is a factor in the restraint/escalation*? If you were an editor/journo how would you determine whether Daniel in this instance was a ‘man’ or a ‘black man’ for the purpose of your piece?
*Escalation ie crush the victim so they are suffocating and then they push back and struggle, which makes cops push harder. Victim fears for life as can’t breathe, so struggles more, screams as an animal in distress. Cops feel perfectly justified in their ‘training’ to push harder, to crush them. They die. Report/cause of death then filed as ‘excited delirium‘/complicated by (name of drug)
As far as I can tell, the standout reason we know the name of Tony Timpa is because he's the only publicised example of a white person being needlessly killed by police in America - I'm sure he's not alone, but thecreason, I think, that we see a racial label applied to so many other needless deaths is because that racial seems to be a singularly consistent point. If the police actions (unnecessary shootings and applied force) were applied equally across the population, I think everyone WOULD be chanting "all lives matter".
Poor Tony's name came up a lot on my Facebook feed a month or six weeks after George Floyd - I'd not heard of him before, and I would wager good money that none of the right-leaning folks who posted about had, either.
Yep, guilty of all 3 charges which together/run concurrently carry a maximum of 80 years, sentencing in 8 weeks time, the only possible verdict given the evidence but it’s merely the start as to what needs to be done to correct for the failings of the current police system in the states.
but it’s merely the start as to what needs to be done to correct for the failings of the current police system in the states.
I'm not so sure it's a unique problem to the USA though.
Statistically in an interaction with the police in the USA, black people are just as likely to be shot as anyone else (apparently, it was mentioned on the BBC so I presume someone was fact checking). However they are roughly twice as likely to be involved with the police (25% of incidents for a population of 13%).
Why that is, is a different argument (including racism elsewhere).
But look at the UK with disproportionate levels of stop and search etc. Is the reason other countries don't have the same perceived problem simply because the police don't have the means?
It’s not finished yet unfortunately, he’ll appeal for sure. Even the judge said that there may be grounds after Maxine Waters’ comments.
Pff, Maxine Waters didn't say anything that isn't obviously true, there's no way it's prejudicial to the case or relevant for any appeal. And watching Republicans who refused to criticise Trump for his incitement call for her to be censured was a disgrace.
Even the judge said that there may be grounds after Maxine Waters’ comments.
Her comments like the Presidents weren't played in court, weren't conveyed to the jury, so had no bearing on proceedings.
Rather quick on the jury deliberation time, normally its a fair bit longer, so it seems the evidence was too overwhelming.
Maxine Waters didn’t say anything that isn’t obviously true
Clearly, however...
there’s no way it’s prejudicial to the case or relevant for any appeal.
...although he dismissed it, the judge said "I'll give you that Congresswoman Waters may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned”
So, I bet there’ll be an attempt to appeal - doesn’t mean it’ll be successful, but they’ll try.
Derek Chauvgn guilty on all charges. Good.
And then within a few minutes a 15yo Black Girl has been shot by police in Ohio, apparently the 50th black victim of law enforcement in the US since the George Floyd murder.
TBF the teenager called the police but was waving a knife around when they arrived.
Derek Chauvgn guilty on all charges. Good.
I have to say, I couldn't be more pleased at the way this trial has been concluded. The fear that yet another murderer would walk free simply because they wear a badge, was so much that had Chavin been acquitted, or even just handed down a much lesser conviction, this would set US human rights back so much, and cause so much societal damage, not least in the inevitable violence that would have followed. Good to see the US justice system can, sometimes, work properly. This verdict is monumental; it now shows that serving police officers cannot murder people and escape justice. It paves the way for many, many more successful prosecutions of similar murders at the hands of those who are meant to protect and serve. And on a human level, it means George Floyd's death will not be in vain. And it shows that Black lives DO matter. Early days, but it's an important step in the right direction.
While I want to agree with that, yer man Chauvin is gonna end up suffocated to death in prison by some big black dude's knee. And then the cops will step up the targetting of black guys several notches.
Early days, but it’s an important step in the right direction.
Think this marks the start of a change in the culture over there, but a long way to go.
Think this marks the start of a change in the culture over there...
Don't be so sure. If you want to be depressed, go and have a look how the good folks of r/Conservative are taking the news.
Here's a select few quotes about the verdict:
"Maybe he is guilty of all charges, but, you can’t reasonable believe the jury wasn’t tainted, influenced, or intimidated."
"Wow it was such a open and fair trial, the verdict was definitely not influenced by threats of violence."
"When you have a jury that is complete fear for their lives if they have an outcome other than guilty with zero protection from an rioting mob egged on by a united states representative. Cowardice is rampant. From the US supreme court to the average person."
"Kangaroo Court"
"Any reasonable person could see reasonable doubt about guilt on any one of those charges. The jury was intimidated by the mob, the media, and even the fraudulent POTUS himself today. This is a travesty of justice."
"the only willing participants [in the jury] would be activists anyways"
"I'm praying that things don't get too crazy in Minnesota over the next while and if they do, I'm praying that the people of Minnesota, who had nothing to do with this case, dosen't get their businesses looted, burned down, hurt or anything along those lines."
"Get ready for the mostly peaceful celebration riots."
"OJ justice: a verdict meant to appease angry, emotional people. The opposite of blind justice."
...but a long way to go.
Indeed.
TBF the teenager called the police but was waving a knife around when they arrived.
Re TBF - "To be Fair" - is it? What does waving a knife around mean and does that then excuse the fact she's now dead? I don't think we know enough yet to conclude it was a fair shooting.
Happy as I am to see the verdict, I don't actually think that this represents a good test case.
Derek Chauvin's actions were so obviously wrong and the evidence against him was overwhelming. We literally have an entire murder filmed from start to finish.
It wasn't a shooting, where the police could claim they: saw a gun, feared for their life; heat of the moment; thought they had reached for their Tazer etc.
A police offer kneeled on a restrained, unarmed man until he suffocated to death while the victim, onlookers and fellow officers pleaded with him to stop. There wasn't even the thinnest veneer of mitigation from feeling threatened or even it being unintentional.
Its basically an easy case to convict the police and claim that things have improved.
I saw a short bit of the defence summing up on the telly, the lawyer invited the jury to 'look at his body language" in a 20 sec clip filmed front on with clear sounds of the crowd protesting. His body language looked very much like he was loving the attention and his expression was that of a cat that got the cream. That'd have done it for me if I was on the jury, I hope he goes down for a long time and any appeals fail of course.
TBF the teenager called the police but was waving a knife around when they arrived.
Police can ONLY shoot at people if they fear for their own lives or that of someone else. This is essential. Shooting people because they are resisting arrest, for example is NOT grounds for shooting, otherwise that means that resisting arrest is a capital offence AND judgement and sentence is handed down without trial. But you'd be amazed at the number of people who support police shooting people because they resist arrest. They say 'well, shouldn't have resisted, they got what was coming'. No, it doesn't work like that.
I haven't watched the knife girl video, so I don't know if she was about to stab someone or not.
One step forward... although the footage I saw, she was about to stab another girl, whilst another person put his foot through another girls head.
Re TBF – “To be Fair” – is it? What does waving a knife around mean and does that then excuse the fact she’s now dead? I don’t think we know enough yet to conclude it was a fair shooting.
Well no, but at first glance it appears a hell of a lot more 'fair' than what happened to George Floyd. There was at least a plausible risk to someone's life / safety there.
Still, if that knife-waving stuff had happened in the UK, I am willing to bet that all parties would still be alive. #LandOfTheFree
I have to say, I couldn’t be more pleased at the way this trial has been concluded. The fear that yet another murderer would walk free simply because they wear a badge, was so much that had Chavin been acquitted, or even just handed down a much lesser conviction, this would set US human rights back so much, and cause so much societal damage, not least in the inevitable violence that would have followed. Good to see the US justice system can, sometimes, work properly. This verdict is monumental; it now shows that serving police officers cannot murder people and escape justice.
Whilst this is the way it's been framed by the media, it's not completely true or accurate.
There are lots of police convicted of exactly the same thing.
There's a lot not convicted too, but then that's why we have jury trials, not all those cases would have been so blatant.
There are lots of police convicted of exactly the same thing.
From the FT:
"One of the most comprehensive databases on police violence is maintained by Philip Stinson, a criminologist at Bowling Green State University in Ohio and a former police officer. According to Stinson’s research, about a thousand people are killed each year by US police, mostly by shooting. Less than 2 per cent of those deaths resulted in charges being filed against officers.
Since 2005, Stinson has counted 140 cases of police being arrested on charges of murder or manslaughter as a result of an on-duty shooting. Of the 97 cases that have concluded, only seven resulted in murder convictions. More than half were dismissed or resulted in acquittals. Some were reduced to lesser offences."
So 7 since 2005, hardly what anyone could reasonably call "a lot", even if viewed as a proportion of the 97 concluded cases.
Hard to believe there won't be a successful appeal based on not having a fair trial.
What juror wouldn't convict under such pressure?
What juror wouldn’t convict under such pressure?
What verdict would you have returned having seen that footage?
Hard to believe there won’t be a successful appeal based on not having a fair trial.
What juror wouldn’t convict under such pressure?
This is also true of many high profile cases but we don't clamour to throw out the verdict of the next Ian Huntley
Not sure about appeals in the US, but I’ve read a lot of appeal verdicts for here and among other things they consider whether a jury could still reasonably convict if the alleged irregularity or unfairness was absent. As MCTD infers, I suspect the video alone would cover that in this case. (Might be totally irrelevant for the US of course. I’m going to go and look).
As MCTD infers, I suspect the video alone would cover that in this case
A lot of lawful policing looks quite ugly. Emotive in itself, if you run the video with many other videos of people resisting arrests and being lawful choked, would it still look open and shut?
The main issue is the conviction for second-degree murder because it requires intent. The jury reached this verdict without once even having to double-check with the judge again regarding the standard of proof required, for example. That's one certain and legally well-drilled jury! Three charges all decided in 9 hrs! Even the drugs in Floyd's system, his narrowed arteries, and the lack of damage to his trachea and neck arteries couldn't dissuade them of reasonable doubt that Floyd was killed by Chauvin, nor of reasonable doubt that he intended to do it.
The main issue is the conviction for second-degree murder because it requires intent
Well that is partly true. There was no need for him to have intended to kill George Floyd, just to have intended to injure him which was a different felony. As I understand it it is second-degree murder if that happened during a different felony even if that wasn't the intended result
The main issue is the conviction for second-degree murder because it requires intent. The jury reached this verdict without once even having to double-check with the judge again regarding the standard of proof required, for example. That’s one certain and legally well-drilled jury!
They didn't take notes when the requirements of the charge were explained? When the prosecution presumably presented its evidence? When the defence presumably pointed out this flaw in the prosecution cases? Is that a whiff of conspiracy theory I detect in your post?
You're happy with the convictions for the other two charges of illegally killing the guy?