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Focusing on one incident
They are the ones posting them here as ‘proof’ of racism.
"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
They are the ones posting them here as ‘proof’ of racism.
And you then regurgitate your opinion on them ad infintum, regardless of how the discussion is evolving
extraordinary claims
And therein lies the point, they aren't - they are everyday normality for some people, the majority of whom are Black or BAME.
And you'll refute that or ask for more evidence because you are not willing to put in the effort to discover this simple element of truth for yourself.
Ninfan, you've read both The MacPherson Report (29 pages of a detailed legal jargon) and my open letter?
To form an opinion which dismisses them I presume you have cross referenced them. I'd be interested to hear your opinion. Did you find the chapter of SPSO legislation I referred to in my letter and can you comment on its impact on the investigation of public agencies?
What about legal aid? And why is it not available for human rights or public law cases?
If being a white woman qualifies me to offer an opinion on sexism within the force then I shall offer one. I'm not going to look up statistics for the amount of women in the force but I think we can accept that it's considerably less than men. Why do so few women join?
Is it because it's a predominantly male institution?
Does that in turn then mean that its difficult for women to progress?
I'm aware that Cressida Dick is now Commissioner so that shows progress for women.
Was that not the answer you were fishing for?
Ok, so a predominantly white male force stops all males more than females. Why is that? I could throw data at you which demonstrates that men are inherently more violent and criminal but that would not give you a true picture, would it? No, because there are other issues at play. We can't use the socioeconomical argument as female single parents are worse off than single white males.
*Edit Sorry for the abrupt ending, I don't wish to derail the thread and discuss sexism however if you wish to start another thread I'll do my homework so that I can give an appropriate answer.
PS, I'm also neurodiverse (diagnosed autism) with Savant syndrome
I don't usually engage with these threads as I start to despair about humanity. I'm out, see you all in a thread about farts
I could throw data at you which demonstrates that men are inherently more violent and criminal but that would not give you a true picture, would it? No, because there are other issues at play.
Regardless of the issues at play, it would make stopping proportionately more men than women entirely sensible & proportionate - therefore not, in my opinion, (or, I would contend, the opinion of the majority of people) discriminatory.
Anyone reminded of the muppet that used to derail gun ownership threads by talking about using one’s car as a lethal weapon? Can’t quite remember who it was.
I know you mean well but this is waffle:
Systemic and institutional racism are insidious and unless you are the victim of it, it is very difficult to see, yet it affects every aspect of life.
Biased Anecdotical evidence + gatekeeping.
It’s not an area which has been studied in detail, I’d say that was because of racism and we don’t want to recognise the damage we’re doing.
Circular argument?
Perhaps you don’t want see it because you would then have to recognise your own privilege, and that will further expose your own fragility.
Ad hominem and circular argument all in one.
There’s been no study of the police to determine the extent of racism in the force and how it is applied to their daily duties. Yet, we can see through a vast amount of individual cases that it does exist and that it is recognised by government agencies and independent institutions.
This reads as an assessment of discrete events indicate the existence of a trend(institutional racism), however parameters to quantify this have not been established. On a side note there are studies somewhat related to this(US), and how what cops see everyday may override any bias training (even if the police is non-white).
One incident does not prove the hypothesis, but thousands of micro-interactions over time do, not all of them make the news or are recorded.
That's not how it works. Correlation does not equal causation.
Can’t quite remember who it was.
Proved right wasn’t I? Ban guns, terrorists use cars instead.
Still, how does that Attempt at an ad hominem attack bear relevance to alleged police racism darcy? Or are you just devoid of any decent argument to put forth in favour of the allegation it exists?
Thing is as a copper you’re on a hiding to nothing.
If the description says black, 5’9, 30-40, male. That’s who you’ve got to look for. Not worth your time looking for 4’ ginger dwarf is it?
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t..
Baboonz, you've cherry picked random quotes from various people and placed them out of context whilst dismissing opinion and hard evidence such as the MacPherson Report and articles.
Ninfan, whilst white males are stopped more than white females, it's more likely because the police have a witness or concrete evidence that they have committed a crime. Such as a description of hair colour, build and clothing. Black males are more likely to be stopped, because of racial profiling and white people find it hard to describe discerning features. Are you suggesting that a predominantly male institution is discriminatory towards males?
As I've asked before, if you wish to discuss sexism please start another thread as it's not relevant to a discussion on racism.
To paraphrase Scott Woods "Racism is more than just hate, it's apathy, disinterest, ignorance, power and privilege." It can also be applied to other forms of discrimination such as sexism.
I’m out, see you all in a thread about farts
🤣
Mrlebowski, how about build? Heavy or athletic?
Hair? Short, weave, natural or dreadlocks?
Nose? Broad or narrow?
Piercings?
Tattoos?
Gait?
I had the police at my door once, as there'd been a break in in a neighbouring town, the police had my partners address as he had to register weekly with the police as part of immigration control. They were there purely because he is black and that was the only description they had. If the description they had was of a white male would they then go around every white male in the county?
That’s not how it works. Correlation does not equal causation.
Tagging back in to cover this very selective point from baboonz. I wasn't on about causation, I was actually reffering to correlation and ninfans reluctance to accept it. If you accept that there is a correlation you can then start looking at the root cause of the problem and then put steps in place to address it.
Feel free to start chucking those highly amusing graphs from Reddit about correlations as i'm sure they're coming soon
This one might be a bit to complicated for some of the current posters on this thread but here you go.
When he was about 15 my brother in law was coming home from school with a group of friends who were kicking an old saucepan up the street using it as a surrogate football. One of the other kids kicked the saucepan and it hit a car. Unsurprisingly the owner came out of his house to reprimand the kids.
The owner then complained to the school. He could identify the kids collectively because they were wearing school blazers, though not individually other than that one of the kids was black.
There was only one black kid of that age group in the school. So my BIL gets called into the headmasters office and punished for the actions of another kid because he was the only one present who was identifiable. His mum went down to the school to try and explain to how screwed up this was but the school could see nothing wrong.
The use of skin colour as a description is interesting; in a majority white country, is it a problem to use skin colour when trying to identify someone?
Would you use it to describe a missing child?
The cycling whilst black and walking home from school whilst black examples are just conundrums, examples of how a situation can become more complex simply because of colour and that society often fails to recognise these complexities.
Mrlebowski, how about build? Heavy or athletic?
Hair? Short, weave, natural or dreadlocks?
Nose? Broad or narrow?
Piercings?
Tattoos?
Gait?
I take it that you’re implying that the more detail available the better, which is obviously the case..
But what if said detail is lacking & the description given is essentially just generic?
The owner then complained to the school. He could identify the kids collectively because they were wearing school blazers, though not individually other than that one of the kids was black.
This is the problem - when the description is so basic & so lacking in detail, how do you proceed with identifying the correct person?
I’m open to all & any suggestions as someone who is potentially joining the police I want to avoid antagonising the innocent. Inskter, your input particularly would be interesting as it seems your experiences with the police have been far less than ideal..
mrlebowski.
You do know that the description doesn't always exist right? That there is no investigation in progress? That there has been no reported crime? That there is no smell of weed?
Stuff does get made up you know.
EDIT.
I'll get back to you when I've had a think mrleboski, I can see your input is genuine and I respect that.
mrlebowski.
You do know that the description doesn’t always exist right? That there is no investigation in progress? That there has been no reported crime? That there is no smell of weed?
Stuff does get made up you know.
Then that is wrong, that’s just fundamentally wrong. I’d be appalled if a fellow officer acted in this manner. Sadly, I know it happens. I am very much aware of the issues the Met, for example, have with racism. See Stephen Lawrence..
However, if we wish to change & improve upon that then we must have a frank & honest dialogue. That, I would think, would involve pain on both sides..
Essentially, my desire is to help not hinder.
There was only one black kid of that age group in the school. So my BIL gets called into the headmasters office and punished for the actions of another kid because he was the only one present who was identifiable
To be clear, your friend didn't offer any details on the people he was with? It seems that the adults in that case knew there was a group involved so did the others get completely away with it?
I was picked out on occasion because i was tall, especially for my age. Example was throwing handfuls of stones over a wall at scouts, me & mates on one side, unknown lads on the other and we couldn't see the opposition. It was all good crack until someone got hit in the eye and went to the scout master. Guess who got pulled up even though we were all throwing stones over the wall. The scout master said, i was identified as 'the tall one', the others were then dragged in as i was quite happy to implicate them.
But, crucially - was I vertically profiled? Was that a fair thing to do? Should we stop using ethnicity as an identifier?
In the original example I think the issue is more how the investigation and justice was carried out
mrleboski,
When I see those videos of encounters with the police go wrong I see myself in the police officers.
I grew up in the countryside during the 80's, in a 99.9 white market town. After school I moved to inner city Manchester. The contrasts were profound and as expected it took me some time to adapt as there was much to learn and plenty of things to deal with that I hadn't encountered where I'd grown up.
One of my good friends from sixth form also left the sleepy town to go to the big city, he joined the Met Police. After a few weeks training he was plonked into an inner city area, into an environment where there had been riots only a few years previously. So I contrast my gradual inroduction to a different and comlex environment with my friend and the abrupt nature of his introduction to the city and how difficult and steep the learning curve must have been for him.
What I'm trying to draw attention to is the fact that we have always had a situation where those recruited to police the inner city for the most part have come from the suburbs and the countryside. Do they have the requisite experience and skills set to do their job properly? Is it a question of training and education, (yes) or more broadly is it about how recruitment patterns can lead to a sense of occupation by some citizens as they are being policed by people who neither represent or understand the community they are supposed to serve.
Loughan,
I'm tall too, I was the one who got sent to the off licence because I looked the oldest. I even got suspended from school once where the deputy head even admitted he took a dislike to me because I was tall!
I guess it's ultimately about the difference between being profiled because you are a tall and being profiled because you are black. I think there is a difference.
But as you point out, the facts of the example I gave are incontrovertible, there isn't an alternative set of facts to work with. There are however alternatives in the way in which an investigation is carried out and how justice can be ultimately delivered.
cycling you say........
Should we stop using ethnicity as an identifier?
I was about to put my hand up and say ‘wait, but ‘ethnicity’ doesn’t necessarily mean skin-colour ie you can have someone with a genetic heritage that is dark-skinned, yet be more ‘ethnically’ (culturally) English than they are African etc, etc.
But then my hand goes down because it seems that there are varied definitions of ‘ethnicity’. This is the first one I googled:
Ethnicity:
1Relating to a population subgroup (within a larger or dominant national or cultural group) with a common national or cultural tradition.
‘ethnic and cultural rights and traditions’
But I know that my parents generation use ‘ethnics’ as a collective noun for ‘blacks’ in an attempt to be what they see as ‘politically correct’.
Confusing.
Anyway, the UK government seem to think it means ‘race‘ (roughly divided by white, asian, black, arab - but it’s not so simple, wait) and group people into 18 ‘ethnic groups’ listed as
The recommended ethnic groups are:
White
English / Welsh / Scottish / Northern Irish / British
Irish
Gypsy or Irish Traveller
Any other White backgroundMixed / Multiple ethnic groups
White and Black Caribbean
White and Black African
White and Asian
Any other Mixed / Multiple ethnic backgroundAsian / Asian British
Indian
****stani
Bangladeshi
Chinese
Any other Asian backgroundBlack / African / Caribbean / Black British
African
Caribbean
Any other Black / African / Caribbean backgroundOther ethnic group
Arab
Any other ethnic group
So there is no ‘official’ ethnic group for (say) black English, but there is Black British.
The government says
It is recognised that these ethnic groups do not represent how all people identify. People are encouraged to write in their ethnicity using their own words if they don’t identify with any groups in the list.
So profiling someone because of their ‘ethnicity’ is as of writing really just profiling someone for their skin colour/racial DNA?
So in answer to
Should we stop using ethnicity as an identifier?
I’d suggest that in such a diverse society we should maybe be asking whether skin-colour/DNA is the prime identifier of ‘ethnicity’, or is it still a ‘handy shortcut’ ?
If that makes sense?
What I’m trying to draw attention to is the fact that we have always had a situation where those recruited to police the inner city for the most part have come from the suburbs and the countryside. Do they have the requisite experience and skills set to do their job properly? Is it a question of training and education, (yes) or more broadly is it about how recruitment patterns can lead to a sense of occupation by some citizens as they are being policed by people who neither represent or understand the community they are supposed to serve.
Good point well made.
I know, my background would make it difficult to understand the problems facing a youth growing up in Hackney. Difficult, but hopefully not impossible..
mrleboski,
Not impossible indeed. Keeping an open mind and asking yourself the right questions is the best place to start. My mate found it difficult but he had a good moral compass and was prepared to discuss things with his liberal friends. We drifted apart but I met him a few years later at a wedding and could see that he was the same good guy I'd known at school.
For context there was another guy at that wedding from the school year below us. He'd gone to university before joining the police and he'd been fast tracked to detective in his mid 20's. He was the most overtly racist person I have ever met in my life. Offering up a stream of racist jokes and innuendo, mostly with violent punchlines. I'd got chatting to him because he was a keen mountain biker. I have genuinely wondered wether he lurks on here under a pseudonym, as he would fit both the demographic and general location bias of singletrack world from it's early days.
That was back in the 90's so hes either no longer a policeman or is in the higher ranks having made a career of it. Based on those twp extremes I find it difficult to stereotype the police because the best two examples I have are the complete opposite of each other.
For another bit of context, I'm sure most of us saw the footage of the female nurse being threatened with having her car window smashed in and ending up handcuffed whilst her car was searched.
She apparently fitted the description of a person that the police had been provided with regarding an apparent crime. I don't believe any of what the police say in that video but let's for a moment suppose the police were telling the truth. We all judge people based on type. In this instance the policeman was judging the woman based on her fitting a provided description. That description started with the words "black woman", we dont know if the description outlined any other characteristics about her.
Looking at it from the policeman point of view (as we are because it is bodycam footage under scrutiny) he approaches the car because he believes that it contains someone who fitted the description. When the woman turns to look at him through the window we see what she looks like. When I saw her on the video it took me about half a second to stereotype her by her mannerisms and the way she dressed and talked. I thought the woman looks like she's the go to church and pay your council tax on time type and had I been that policeman I would have had the Obi Wan voice in my head saying "she's not the one you're looking for" and would have adjusted my behaviour accordingly.
The policeman in question only saw a type that fitted the "description" but perhaps didn't have the skills or experience to deal with the situation. That's my rather generous interpretation of the police actions anyway.
inkster
MemberShe apparently fitted the description of a person that the police had been provided with regarding an apparent crime
I think you should always start from the position of absolute skepticism with this one, since it's got such a fine tradition of abuse. But especially when that's not the reason that they gave for the stop- they say it's because "you're not supposed to have front tinted windows, which is actually an offence". This isn't true, either- you can legally have front tinted windows within limits, and it turns out, there was nothing wrong with hers.
They also don't seem to give an appropriate reason for detaining her for the purposes of a search- that needs reasonable grounds.
TBH I don't think she reacted totally reasonably but she's the civilian and they're the police, only one of them has an actual responsibility of exactly how to act and from the video I don't think they've done that.
The last few pages of this thread are unreal. Pinkbike have addressed their problem with racism and representation are STW going to step up, or keep silent?
Pinkbike have addressed their problem with racism and representation are STW going to step up, or keep silent?
Unlike yourself others have reported their concerns and it has been addressed. If you have issues with any posts or users please report them, moaning about it not being pinkbike means we don’t see them.
We’ll review any sent. We may not always agree with the reporter.
STW have been happy* to have racist and xenophobic material published on their forum in the past. I’ve had plenty of it from two posters I can think of and some casual stuff from a few others. Sorry, it’s not your users’ job to police shit like that - I don’t mind helping out if I see somebody being bullied on a tattoo thread or if there are spam posts, but racism and bigotry? You need to be sorting that shit out yourselves pro-actively rather than this lazy arsed laissez faire “you gotta report it guys otherwise we don’t see it” attitude. It’s your forum. You sort it out. It’s why I haven’t specifically reported racist content in goodness knows how long - if you don’t try hard enough to get rid of it, then I’d rather it was left there for all, including casual visitors, to see. Waiting for users to report is not “trying hard enough.” It is not enough anymore to just not be racist/bigoted/xenophobic, you should be anti- those things.
I’d expect any thread like this to have at least some kind of perfunctory monitoring - and not necessarily by the volunteer mods - with whom I have sympathy when a hot topic gets all the usual keyboard warriors (me, not so much these days, but in the past, yes, guilty!) with their hot takes. I realise you’re unlikely to get a sudden splurge of bigotry on the “what’s the last thing you made” thread so it’s fair enough when you roll out the old “we can’t be all over every thread” excuse, but you ought to be on top of stuff like this.
*When I say “happy”, I don’t mean actually happy. I mean, they haven’t really been that bothered. Because it’s still there.
I say all this as someone who’s actually been banned for racism. Two days, appealed down to one for mitigating circumstances. 😀
DD the mod team is tiny, I work 12 hour shifts and have a social life there’s 1000s a posts on here a day. I can’t possibly read every post which is why we have a reporting system.
but racism and bigotry? You need to be sorting that shit out yourselves pro-actively rather than this lazy arsed laissez faire “you gotta report it guys otherwise we don’t see it” attitude. It’s your forum. You sort it out. It’s why I haven’t specifically reported racist content in goodness knows how long – if you don’t try hard enough to get rid of it, then I’d rather it was left there for all, including casual visitors, to see. Waiting for users to report is not “trying hard enough.” It is not enough anymore to just not be racist/bigoted/xenophobic, you should be anti- those things.
I’d expect any thread like this to have at least some kind of perfunctory monitoring
Amazing and exactly right. As you say if they're not willing to address it let it sit there for all to see, you never know it might make it to sponsors one day
And Drac I do have sympathy but some of the stuff on here should never be allowed
We do address it I’ve banned several uses over the years for such behaviour, sometimes we spot them but we do rely on members reporting them.
Fwiw its why i stopped posting earlier, I was at risk of getting emotionally involved to a point i might have deserved a ban myself, but it was far better to let certain people expose themselves.
Drac, to add, (and to Cougar wherever he is), I have sympathy. I don’t expect you and Cougar and the other anon guys to be all over these threads. As one of the most popular off topic discussion sites I know, I’d expect someone with a bit of diversity awareness training to monitor a thread like this. You and Cougar are [mostly] reactive monitors. It’s not fair to expect you to have the awareness to spot the tropes and pinhead dancing of the usual suspects. You’re volunteers FFS. (I did make this clear in my last post.)
Cheers DD we do try but we do have lives if our own too, sometimes threads like these live faster than we can keep up. I’ve spent far too long on here in the past trying to monitor threads. The recent offender reappeared due to an error, we dealt with them as quick as we could. In my case it was picking up an email from a very concerned member when I fired up my emails during my meal break. Please report concerns so we can review them.
Umm, awkward.
I'll not go over my past on the forum but I've been extremely heartened by the efforts made so far by the STW team to address the various issues regarding all forms of bigotry on the platform.
Whilst the forum has been a lot more pleasant recently, I agree that more can be done as providing a platform for discrimination doesn't reflect well on the mag or on cycling. Placing the onus on individuals to report has its flaws, I know that I struggle with it as I'm unsure if I'm being a "snowflake" or "extreme" and what the popular opinion is.
Kryton57
its why i stopped posting earlier, I was at risk of getting emotionally involved to a point i might have deserved a ban myself, but it was far better to let certain people expose themselves.
+1
Placing the onus on individuals to report has its flaws,
We’re not just asking to help as once again we can’t possibly read every post.
I’m unsure if I’m being a “snowflake” or “extreme” and what the popular opinion is.
Bollocks to popular opinion, if you think something’s not right report it. Better for it to be looked at than nobody ever knowing there was an issue. It’s clear from the last few pages alone that your opinion and experience on this matter should be heard.
Drac it wasn't a criticism, I understand that the mods have other commitments too.
Thegreatape it means a lot to me to hear that, thank you
Really appreciate your input on here faerie, it's encouraged me to say a few things I've been reluctant to mention before. Times are different now, on almost any issue you can divide society into thirds. Those who get it, those who don't and those that are unsure or disinterested .
We've arrived at a moment where the unsure or disinterested are beginning to ask questions and are open to learning. The don't get it crowd isn't getting any bigger, they're just getting angrier and nastier.
I wouldn't worry about being called a snowflake anymore, that moniker now sits more comfortably with those defending statues from pigeons than those calling for equality.
Trying to ignore the trolls, trying to "be more Beau" (copyright somafunk) but if I see things getting abusive I'll report and have done once before.
Inkster you could have been in my living room with that post. Me and Mrs K had that exact conversation last night. Its not necessarily BML Focused any more - not to detract from that message, BML elevated globall racial inequality - it’s shifted to an exposure and identity of inequality. As you say, some will listen and learn and others with deny or think it’s not their problem.
I go back to the School that tried to end Rascism documentary - I really think the “RE” should be replaced or have added “Cultural identity” (there may be better words) as an educational topic and perhaps even the racial equivalent of a the Speed awareness course could be introduced for adults.
At the risk of quoting someone I don’t want to, people, cultures and locations are different and for that reason we cannot treat everyone the same but we should and must have the same laws, opportunity and mindset applicable to everybody. Those should be applied during carefully measured situations, vis a vis as I said In yesterday’s issue a protective mother is a protective mother and should be treated as such, but we much recognise what it is that centuries of hate and assumption bring to her instincts when faced with a group of White police officers wielding batons quoting an assumptive weapons offence whilst physically manhandling her from a vehicle.
It does not take a genius to see that she was scared shitless - what would a psychologist tell you happens to any human who is very scared - nor does it take a genius to see she was likely more mentally fragile due to past experience of racial profiling - this was her husbands 15th search. Now that the Met has deemed “no action necessary” on the part of the offers involved, where do you think her trust levels are?
Anyway, it’s education that’s important here, exposing the rascists as we would the fascists And trying to live in a society that’s comfortable for all whether that’s here on STW or on the streets where we live.
Doreen Lawrence recalls being stopped by police shortly after son's killing
AS a white middleaged man its of course very difficult for me to really understand the mindset of BAME youth but even I can see if the interactions you have with police are at best irritating and at worst scary then you will react in a different way than I would when stopped as all my interactions with police, even when I have been doing wrong have been pleasant.
I have been stopped driving a car a few times and on my bike a few times. Never have I been ordered out of the car or put in handcuffs even on one occasion when I had really annoyed the cops ( misunderstanding of a gesture on the road)
Despite the claim, there has been a good number of studies into racism and the police/canteen culture etc both directly and indirectly eg someone I know was contracted to study 'training' by the police but they made it clear the subtext was to focus on race.
This is a complex issue with loads of agendas running, it would be a shame if it was just reduced to 'calling people out' and crying 'trope!' since ad hominems and insults are designed to gain virtue and to avoid the inconvenience of further discussion. When Hodge said 'you're a ****ing anti-semite' she wasn't inviting Corbyn to elucidate on his lifelong commitment to the dispossessed and victims of racism.
AS a white middleaged man its of course very difficult for me to really understand the mindset of BAME youth but even I can see if the interactions you have with police are at best irritating and at worst scary then you will react in a different way than I would when stopped as all my interactions with police
Even more so when most people might only ever get stopped by the police once or twice in their lives, it's difficult for me to imagine how it must feel to be repeatedly stopped, subject to suspicion and snide remarks, possibly even a lengthy search in public view, and then 'allowed' to go despite having done nothing more than be the wrong colour* looking different** in the wrong place.
I do find it difficult to imagine how I'd react, I imagine I'd be pretty prickly after a few instances, and I'd probably start being a lot less co-operative and pleasant too. I'd also probably have some pent up animosity for future interactions too, and if this kind of thing happened to my peers, friends, and family as well then is it at all surprising the distrust and anger that's apparent?
When I see a police car or police officer I don't take any more notice of them than a post(wo)man or delivery van, do you think someone with the above experience would be so blase? Or might they be worried about 'yet another stop' or some other unwelcome interaction? I think my behaviour would probably visibly change, I might get nervous, avoid eye contact, or change direction, some might say my behaviour might even start to look suspicious...what a tangled and self-perpetuating web that'd weave eh?
Now throw in 'that kind of thing' in all walks of life, from education, to job prospects, to treatment in social situations, portrayal in the media etc. and I think if I were a member of any community that had to deal with that I'd be pretty pissed off.
I'd like to think of myself as open, not prejudiced, and (hopefully) not racist, but I think I'm still reminding myself and learning everyday how to be better, and how to be better at recognising problems that are often invisible to people that don't have to deal with them.
*EDIT as I didn't like the undertone of the phrase I used, 'wrong colour' FFS 🙁
** Still not happy with 'different' as in some places you might look just like everyone else that lives there.
See this is the issue, it's simply 'looking a certain way' that can cause this, and it's not right that that's even a thing in this day and age. We're supposed to be civilised.
Hear hear!
Interesting snippet from a podcast I was listening to the other day. The host and his guest (a black rapper) were discussing the "getting stopped in your car; White man vs Black man" issue. The guest suggested that one of the checks you do as a black man - make sure I have no drugs on me, at all ever, no excuses, when in a car - the white host having to agree that he'd never thought about it, and he'd not be overly concerned about having some dope in his pocket. The rapper essentially saying, as a black man, that's a 12 hour shift at the cops. It's clearly anecdotal. But it speaks as to the thought processes, and why looking at statistics of arrests misses the point by a million miles. Those stats may be absolutely accurate, but the black man had clearly got a totally different approach to his interactions with the cops.
That's institutionalisation. You've taught different groups of folk to expect a different reaction to the same thing.
Interesting snippet from a podcast I was listening to the other day. The host and his guest (a black rapper) were discussing the “getting stopped in your car
That wouldn’t be Robert Evans and Propaganda doing Behind The Police would it?
DD, Yes!! great series, don't you think?
I started listening to his Behind The Bastards* podcast only a week or so before Behind The Police started as a mini. Bloody brilliant stuff! The last episode, 2½ hours long was gripping. Utterly staggering. Loved the bit about the Texas Rangers**. Would be funny if it didn’t involve such misery for the victims of their methods.
I love Propaganda’s occasional “Y’all think we haven’t tried that already?” retort to the various “Why dont black people do this/that/the other?” 😀
*Side note: the recent two episodes on various coups from the main podcast (mostly in African countries) was fascinating.
** NPR had a guy on recently doing a deeper dive into just the Texas Rangers. Haven’t listened yet, but based on who recommended it, I will do. Ah, just found it, it’s from the Fresh Air podcast. Search “The Brutal History of The Texas Rangers.” Actually, scrolling through, there’s lots more along these lines; police militarisation, etc.
Based on those twp extremes I find it difficult to stereotype the police because the best two examples I have are the complete opposite of each other.
From what I can gather you’ve had a tough time with racism in your life, yet you still retain an intelligent, mature & rational perspective. That can’t have been easy for you at times I imagine.
Kudos to you.
But, crucially – was I vertically profiled? Was that a fair thing to do? Should we stop using ethnicity as an identifier?
Height is a sliding scale. Someone notably tall in a small group (your scout group) is probably easier to identify. But imagine, as an adult in wider society, if someone called the police and said 'I saw a tall bloke committing a crime' and the police arrested you and your kid purely because you were the first tall bloke they bumped into?
The issue is that people are describing people as 'a black guy' and the police are acting on it as if it's enough detail to work with. It's not. It's sometimes understandable (although not forgivable) for white people to give that description because white people will notice blackness first, but it's not ok for the police to act purely on it.
Something could be done. Why don't the police have a book of sample face types in their car they can use to help people give better descriptions? The African continent has more genetic diversity than the rest of the world combined, so you could easily have pictures of generic faces from different parts (e.g. West vs East Africa which are really different if people bother to look) along with ethnic groups from the rest of the world. Would be pretty easy to do no?
mrlebowski,
It's not so much what I've experienced personally, more a case of what I've seen. So when a story hits the news I'm not shocked because I have either seen or know someone who has gone through the same. Having a cosmopolitan family and group of friends I actually feel quite priveledged, that combined with working in the arts sector means I'm so rarely exposed to racist and intolerant views. So on a personal level I feel insulated from reality whilst simultaneously being very conscious that im living in a parallel universe to some of my friends. Thats white priveledge I guess.
At the end of the day we all nèed good policing and the more policing is in the public eye and under scrutiny the better it will be. We need to ask ourselves the question is it the job of the police to protect and serve the community or to enforce law and order.
What we've seen on many of these videos shot under lockdown is a police force, often the TSG, roaming the empty streets looking to enforce law and order The general reduction of overall crime has led the police to concentrate their efforts in such a way that has revealed underlying systemic prejudices. This is why we've seen already grossly disproportionate figures for stop and search multiply exponentially as a usually overstretched police force can now go looking for targets.
With regards canteen culture I'm not sure it exists in the same way as it once did back in the 80's. My hunch is that things are more cliquey now. The racist elements are found more in pockets, connected by WhatsApp and Facebook groups and the like and centred within certain departments, perhaps like the TSG in the UK. Notice that the German Police has just disbanded its entire elite special forces group as it had been infiltrated top to toe with Neo Nazis.
We often talk of good apples and bad apples. In order to sort the good from the bad you need a system to prevent the bad apples infecting the good and at the moment it doesn't look like the UK police have those systems or enough oversight in place. The police chiefs failed to anticipate what the policing environment would be like under covid and has let their forces on the ground run a little wild. Currently the police are showing similar leadership skills to the Government.
The poor police management we are witnessing at this time is not only failing the public it is failing its own officers. Its really easy to see that the good officers (the silent majority I would hope) must be as uncomfortable with what they are seeing as we are. I bet there's a lot of them that want their voices heard too.
Fwiw its why i stopped posting earlier, I was at risk of getting emotionally involved to a point i might have deserved a ban myself,
I think this is the aim of some posters - not just here but all over the internet.
I certainly have been goaded into getting myself banned in the past
Best to walk away - its difficult but I have learned but when faced with folk who do not want to listen or understand then make your point and walk away . I don't always manage this 😉
TJ,
We've all got to try to be a bit more Beau.
Noticed that Robert Evans guy was re-tweeting Beau of the fifth column. Beau is the perfect example of not letting your emotions get in the way of something you are passionate about. Something we could all learn from when dealing with massively important topics.
Some positive movement, Although it'd be interesting to see the profile of the IOPC board, with several people call it an unjustified level of policing, as we have discussed here.
One in eight young black males in London stopped by police in May About 10,000 black males aged 15 to 25 stopped and searched, of whom 8,000 released with no further action
Does this sound proportionate to you?
Although it’d be interesting to see the profile of the IOPC board,
I've been having some interesting debates around the issue of positive discrimination recently.
The 'All Lives Matter' crew don't seem to able to see the importance of starting from a level playing field.
The same arguments we had in the Labour Party re all female shortlists.
It's a hard road, because, in all honesty, some people just don't, or are unwilling to engage in rational debate.
However, I have seen some positives over the last few weeks.
Lazy, rascist stereotyping within the NHS is being challenged at ground level. People are much more willing to speak up.
It's happening, it's real and it is making a difference.
Much work, many lifetimes, but we must not waste this opportunity.
Love to all.
Absolutely Tj. Cressida Dick has made an apology to Williams for her distress, not for the way in which the police treated them though, which she said is justified. She still maintains that the Met and the wider police forces are not institutionally racist, despite evidence to the contrary.
It's good to hear that people are having conversations and challenging racism, that's one of the most important things that we can do to work towards equality. We've made more progress in the past month than we have done in the past decade, because of those discussions. These conversations are what's prompted the turnaround from universities and local authorities, although what they've offered is purely performance and doesn't affect change.
I had an interesting talk today with a guy who has called out Edinburgh City Council for racism in one of its schools, I'm now organising a campaign for a judicial review of SPSO legislation which prevents them investigating conduct, curriculum or discipline in in our agencies and institutions. Anyone know how to do that without £60k - £100k? Legal aid isn't available for human rights or public law cases, so could I do it by representing myself against the government?
Full transcript of the whole incident:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6983106-Thomas-Lane-body-camera-transcript.html
Here's a good wee video which explains why people of colour are stopped and searched more often
https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1281122352001093632?s=09
There's a difference between drug users and drug dealers though.
Where i used to live in London most of the heroin dealing was carried out by ****stani and Turkish gangs, cocaine was largely black / Jamaican, Kosovan and Albanian gangs and weed was everyman and his dog!
The area was well known for it (East). If your target criminal fits a description what are the police meant to do? It's a difficult one to call for a copper. I wouldnt like to do their job at the moment, they're damned if they do and damned if they dont.
I was routinely stopped 20 years ago when i was (a lot!) younger and driving a (bell end alert! :)) Porsche....the police thought i'd either nicked it or i'd borrowed my dads car! I can see why i was pulled as car theft was a big thing in London by young people. I always got out of the car calmly and never had any trouble. I got teh odd producer, but that was it.
My point being if you have target demographic like the coppers had in my borough, from a law enforement perspetive then anyone who fits that bill is a potential. Unfotunate, but true.
lamp,
You say unfortunate but true when surely the question should be were the police right or wrong. You might well have been a "bell end" in your youth but the important questions are;
Where you breaking the law when you were stopped? (Driving erratically etc.)
Can't the police run a number plate check to see if the car is reported stolen before they stopped you?
Could it be that the police who stopped you were jealous of seeing a young person in a Porsche?
If you are stopped for no good reason then it is not you who is breaking the law it is they.
And whilst we constantly talk about policing in the inner city, its worth remeberong that under lockdown, he most disproportionate statistics for race bias during stop and search have been found in the rural Counties. I believe Cumbria was the worst with a 9/1 ratio.
I don't know whether that's true or not re Cumbria. Say it is, what's the rationale behind it? Is it because dealers from other cities are moving into rural territories? Has there been an increase in crime with the main suspects fitting a certain description? I would guess Cumbria is predominantly white, so why would a person of colour be there during a lockdown? Or is just because of the colour? I'd be genuiely interested to know, i doubt you'd ever find out the full truth.
I did have a few lead foot moments in it sometimes to be fair, but you can't see in any detail as to who is driving a car through the rear windscreen though.
so why would a person of colour be there during a lockdown?
Indeed!! The nerve of the little tinkers. Hanging around in white areas. Jaysus.
Lamp, please watch the video I've not long posted, we've been over that discussion recently with Ninfan.
Re Cumbria, the black population makes up just 0.01% yet it has one of the worst crime rates in England. The police are aware of around 54 gangs operating in the area and the most recent county lines arrests were of a gang of 15 white people.
Another shooting by poorly trained gun toting officers, apparently he was attempting to break up a fight between two women and was shot 7 times in the back as he tried to get in his car
Its disgusting - this video nearly brought me to tears:
https://news.sky.com/story/black-man-shot-in-the-back-seven-times-by-wisconsin-police-12055472
They've basically followed him and shot him - not once - seven times SEVEN TIMES at point blank range in front of his 3 children. That's not immobilisation, thats downright murder, because he's black and his life nor those of his kids did not matter a jot.
FFS.
Can't be any justification for that at all. I know we can't see what's in the car but if there was anything that would cause the officer to shoot we'd have heard by now.
Well, it's not murder, on account of he's not dead. But yeah.
Having said that, we don't know if it's a racism thing or a Blue Lives Matter, militarised policing, treat everyone like an enemy combatant and potential copkiller thing. Reaching for your driver's licence after being told to reach for your driver's licence can get you shot if the officer in question is terrified enough of shadows.
More of the story has unfolded, with more video and background. There's no Kenosha police bodycam footage as they don't wear them, despite having been awarded funding for them they're not going to implement the usage until 2022. Other bystanders filmed what happened before he's seen going to his car, where he's restrained by officers before breaking free. He supposedly had a warrant for sexual crimes, although it's not clear whether the officers were aware of it.
None of that justifies an attempted street execution, he's entitled to a fair trial like we would expect. As for his young kids having to witness such state sanctioned brutality, I can't imagine the trauma of what they're going through. We condemn authoritarian states in Africa and the Middle East for the same actions and treatment towards their citizens, yet we justify ours with pale excuses.
Other bystanders filmed what happened before he’s seen going to his car, where he’s restrained by officers before breaking free. He supposedly had a warrant for sexual crimes, although it’s not clear whether the officers were aware of it.
Either way, if that's true then they may well have good reason to suspect he could be attempting to retrieve a weapon. It's a horrible situation especially for the kids but if it unfolded as you describe then he has little sympathy from me.
The real question is one of conflict training, restraint and how you go about de-escalating a situation without resorting to shooting. If he'd been tazered rather than shot he would just be another idiot.
squirrelking
MemberEither way, if that’s true then they may well have good reason to suspect he could be attempting to retrieve a weapon.
Maybe. But good reason to suspect they could be attempting to retrieve a weapon, doesn't justify shooting someone. But this is a recurring thing with the US police in particular (and it can happen anywhere to be fair)- like I said up the page treating everyone as a hostile combatant, and shooting because a risk might occur not because of an actual risk, is baked into a lot of forces now.
And the response is to say "blue lives matter", and act as if they're being told they can't defend themselves or use lethal force ever, as if that's the two options- shoot an unarmed person in the back, or get shot yourself.
So much of US gun logic still seems to revolve around quick-drawing cowboy duels- your concealed carry will protect you from a man already with a gun in his hand. And that seems to extend to "this bad man might reach, draw, ready and shoot faster than I can shoot him with this gun that's already pointing at him, I seen it in a movie". Course, real life gun duels never really happened either.