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What's your thoughts?
you go first
Is this about the Oscars?
Privatisation of education, with the only winners being the financiers. Next.
Are they touring again? I didn't like their last album as much as the earlier stuff though.
who bloomin gives a monkeys. Its just baby sitting. Make em all pay if the wants tha spawn ejicated. Kids the just ere to replace you.
OK - so I see it as a decision not based on robust evidence.... what Academies there have been have been mediocre... Further, the privatisation model favours decions based on competitive tendering ahead of experts/what's best for the service users.....so I think it's a rubbish decision...hopefully it won't go ahead..
Huge reductions in over staffing, and school building sell offs, following the privatisation of schools,and like most privatisations , some people are going to make a lot of money and a lot are going to be out of jobs.
Clearly specialists in education are the last people you want to run schools, much better to replace them with business managers with ideological crosses to bear.
the privatisation model favours decions based on competitive tendering ahead of experts/what's best for the service users.
Successful businesses manage to subcontract services and infrastructure to provide a good service at a fair price. If the public sector is incompetent, that isn't really a good argument against privatisation. That's not to say there aren't good arguments against privatisation but incompetent tendering shouldn't be one of them.
FWIW I agree with reducing council control over schools but disagree with the extent of the independence academies get and the involvement of sponsors. You don't want an accountant running the school, but neither do you want a politician or a union doing it...
What will the Torys do when there is nothing left to sell?
No more need for any teacher to be qualified will certainly help drive down costs!!
all schools.... sorry ...academies, now have a finance officer or someone in charge of the money, which they didn't need before. So that's 30k that was previously spent on education and materials which now isn't.
Private companies and sponsors in charge of education. Great.
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Removing LEAs will weaken arts services because music lessons, art services, sport provision comes direct as a service from the LEA so each academy trying to provide their own will be worse but the stupid d1,cks don't think beyond their own noses.
Disbanding the LEA is another way to have a pop at councils that are invariably non tory
^^ Probably the most sensible thing I've read in a long time on here grumpysculler.
The elephant in the room for the entire public sector has always been tolerance of incompetence at all levels and lack of action to get rid of incompetent people and institutional waste, so if this helps break that, then it's a good thing.
On the other hand, I'd hate to see it go too far. With luck, a natural balance will ensue. Dead wood will be rooted out, standards will rise as a result of increased accountability, and net result is better education.
Harry_the_Spider - Member
What will the Torys do when there is nothing left to sell?
The wonderful thing about our current economic system is that irrespective of which part of the political spectrum, the very last blade of grass left on this planet, will get sold. It's utter genius.
balance will ensue. Dead wood will be rooted out, standards will rise as a result of increased accountability, and net result is better education.
So I have some of the most expensive energy in Europe coming from a privatised company now owned by the French govt. I can choose from 1 railway operator to get me to London from Reading and for £5k pa season ticket I may have to stand all the way home. Choice in water supply? Nope just leaky old Thames Water (in part owned by the German govt). Have standards really risen?
The elephant in the room for the entire public sector has always been tolerance of incompetence at all levels
Happens in the private sector too.
lack of action to get rid of incompetent people and institutional waste, so if this helps break that, then it's a good thing.
As does this.
So I have some of the most expensive energy in Europe coming from a privatised company now owned by the French govt.
uswitch
I can choose from 1 railway operator to get me to London from Reading and for £5k pa season ticket I may have to stand all the way home.
National express and megabus both run coaches on that same route.
Choice in water supply? Nope just leaky old Thames Water (in part owned by the German govt). Have standards really risen?
without widescale metering its unlikely to happen.
Clearly specialists in education are the last people you want to run schools, much better to replace them with business managers with ideological crosses to bear.
You are actually correct. Specialists in education should do just that. Well run MAT's should free them up to focus on Teaching and raising standards as oppose to trying to be experts in HR/Finance/FM and IT, Making decisions they are unqualified to make which is what happens now.
The elephant in the room is that there is no evidence to justify making all schools Academies...and what evidence there is is decidedly mixed...goes to show that ideology/money is the driving factor, not what's best for the pupils....
#ihavenokids
I think it's an excellent idea. Take out all the bureaucratic/pension providing/snafflng £'s overlays and get down to providing quality education.
The only really bad feeling I have in this is that certain subjects such as Arts or Music will become minority subjects and for your kids to attend, the parents will pay to support "none core subjects"
Other than that, great.
Over bloated, over funded gravy train until you retire/then s**** whilst eating off your final salary pension pot MAWCB's.
My Sisters a Headmistress BTW.
What they are ignoring (quite wilfully) is that there is already a massive teacher shortage, which is only going to get much worse over the next 10 years or so! It is easy to say that you will route out poor teacher etc, but when the only people who are willing to stand in a classroom are those poor teacher, you are a bit stuck!
Using unqualified staff sounds like a simple fix....until they get crap grades because they aren't qualified (and you have to ask if you wanted to be a teacher why wouldnt you put yourself through qualification) or they realise that teaching really isn't easy street and they go and work in another sector!
It is amazing how many people leave teaching for an easier life in another career.....but so many slate teachers for having an easy life!
I think it's an excellent idea. Take out all the bureaucratic/pension providing/snafflng £'s overlays and get down to providing quality education.
That's not what has happened with academies so far, why do you think it will suddenly start working now?
You are actually correct. Specialists in education should do just that. Well run MAT's should free them up to focus on Teaching and raising standards as oppose to trying to be experts in HR/Finance/FM and IT, Making decisions they are unqualified to make which is what happens now.
Frankly I haven't met a manager with those skills in 30 years working in the private and public sector, where are they all going to magically appear from? There will just be an extra layer of overpaid incompetent bureaucracy in schools with no oversight.
Maybe the local authority could provide those services to schools in their area allowing schools to get on with teaching.
There will be a crisis in 15-25 yrs when the schools are falling down...... As they'll have failed to budget for the upkeep of the buildings.... And spent the money on fancy carpet for the 'business manager'
Take out all the bureaucratic/pension providing/snafflng £'s overlays and get down to providing quality education.
And replace it with share holders and CEO's being paid lumps to go when they fail.
Frankly I haven't met a manager with those skills in 30 years working in the private and public sector,
I have met lots and with a statment like that you are clearly not objective.
Maybe the local authority could provide those services to schools in their area allowing schools to get on with teaching.
They have failed in the past.
with a statment like that you are clearly not objective.
😆
They have failed in the past.
Academies have been better funded and failed to provide a better outcome so the evidence points to a more successful delivery of service under LEA controlled schools.
There will be a crisis in 15-25 yrs when the schools are falling down...... As they'll have failed to budget for the upkeep of the buildings....
So much the same as previous then. The school I went to in late 80's was built in 2 phases in the 60's on the cheap and was completely falling apart with leaking roofs and failed heating to name a few issues.
There's no evidence that private sector organisations are any better run than public sector ones. All large organisations have incompetent staff, duplication of resources. inefficient processes, etc. It's a factor of scale, not whether there are shareholders or not.
The motivation is 100% based on ideology and a hatred of LEAs / local councils.
Worse... All the investment in The BSF school programme will be squandered. The academies will sweat the estate and it will end up costing Joe Public a fortune in the decades to come
The elephant in the room for the entire public sector has always been tolerance of incompetence at all levels and lack of action to get rid of incompetent people and institutional waste, so if this helps break that, then it's a good thing.On the other hand, I'd hate to see it go too far. With luck, a natural balance will ensue. Dead wood will be rooted out, standards will rise as a result of increased accountability, and net result is better education.
Of course it would work if the private sector was any better. Former public services now privatised would suggest otherwise.
The bitterness. You can tell a tory nothing matters except the money.Over bloated, over funded gravy train until you retire/then s**** whilst eating off your final salary pension pot MAWCB's.
So I have some of the most expensive energy in Europe coming from a privatised company now owned by the French govt. I can choose from 1 railway operator to get me to London from Reading and for £5k pa season ticket I may have to stand all the way home. Choice in water supply? Nope just leaky old Thames Water (in part owned by the German govt). Have standards really risen?
It doesn't matter about standards. The Government is so ideologically opposed to anything publicly owned.
Everything that was won for ordinary people after WW2 is being undone by the type of people who ran the country prior to that conflict.
Turning a school into an academy is actually nationalisation, it is transferred to the central government balance sheet.
What's the difference between academy and school? Very lazy to google ... 😛
The motivation is 100% based on ideology and a hatred of LEAs / local councils.
If academies were going to improve things we'd have noticed by now wouldnt we?
Willshawe was banging on about them wasting money the other day.
Drac - Moderator
Take out all the bureaucratic/pension providing/snafflng £'s overlays and get down to providing quality education.
And replace it with share holders and CEO's being paid lumps to go when they fail.
If you like, yes.
But that's not what I said now is it.
You seem to promote CEO's being paid large salaries, why?
Did I?
I didn't.
Fancy some argument ?
Or just picking me out, trolling perhaps?
You next....
It's just Cameron continuing the policy his mentor started
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The EBD school my friend teaches at went to the absolute shit after it was turned over to an investment fund. Overcrowding, increased number of incompetent poorly paid staff, continual hiring and firing of management staff and ofsted reports that went through the floor....all to chase as much government funding with the least amount of overheads.
Ninfan, must admit, the bit in that video about giving local councils 100 million each to defend themselves made me laugh a lot. 😀
Brilliant!
Yes Prime Minister! Timeless! 😀
They have a bad rep amongst teachers of having a high staff turn over due to burnout.
It seems to be motivated by the philosophical idea that private >public
I left working at a local academy a few years back, because it was so poorly run. They wasted thousands on paying off experienced good members of staff, as they did not fit in with their 'forward thinking vision', executive heads paid off in the end to the tune of a years wage, circa 160k. The academy is now running at a .5 million loss. I am sure there are very well run academies, but saying that moving management over to the private sector will improve things is tosh.
Arts and Music will suffer as a result, but what will suffer more is the coordination of services that are meant to help families and students of the most vulnerable. Academies in our area refuse to take part in meetings with social workers and the LEA when trying to make managed moves, and make key decisions for vulnerable students. They simply do not want a 'troublesome' student. They are more than happy to exclude and let other schools take them on however.
There are good academies and bad academies, as there are normal schools. Being made into any academy in itself doesn't lead to school improvement. Initially converting came with extra cash, but that is long gone. Our school is well run but stripped to the bone - there is no spare cash and any more savings have a direct impact on curriculum delivery to students. Most schools will soon be expected to be part of a MAT, despite lots of evidence where they have been unsuccessful. Meanwhile the curiuculum is being narrowed, vocational subjects are gone and we are seeing massive rises in student mental health issues. The latest announcement is about increasing the school day. The government is talking about ending the 'Victorian' school finish of c.3.30pm. That is utter tosh - I don't know of a single school where they are not clubs and catch-up sessions until later; lots of our students in in until 4 or 5pm. Extra cash to support this is of course welcome, but apparently it is only for 25% of schools. Meanwhile we can not get any meaningful support from CAMHS or CSC because they have no staff and no money.
Well, that will end the staff shortage we currently have up here. Cheaper housing as well as a slower pace of life. The conversion course has been simplified as well. AA; science isn't it? We are short of one of each. 🙂
Same old same old....The ongoing dismantling of the Beverage report continues,money going to wasteful boards of directors instead of wasteful labour councils is pure ideology driven change.
This reminds me of NHS trusts? And we all know how well some of those are doing. Funny how they dont want to build new grammar schools that seem to do quite well in the league tables
If academies were going to improve things we'd have noticed by now wouldnt we?
The best two schools within 10 miles of me are both academies. The state run schools are full of knife wielding neanderthals who think football is a curriculum subject.
The council can barely run the refuse service; they struggle with anything more complicated.
ScottCh therein lies the problem. Academies have more freedom to exclude pupils state need to ensure there's a positive destination, usually another school nearby. But if the academy won't accept the knife wielder then.....create a sink school? Pay authority to staff a school for the perpetually excluded?
The government has excluded special schools from the forced academy change so they'll remain in LA control.
There's a huge number of children with special needs in mainstream schools currently but they're expensive to educate as they need one-to-ones, special equipment etc.
Once academies set their own admissions policies they exclude those pupils claiming 'they can't meet their complex needs'.
The net result will be that children who could access both the academic and social aspects of mainstream schools will be excluded from it.
Special schools are wonderful places and do a huge amount of work for children but, for those with more moderate difficulties, the exclusion is going to be a harsh blow to their self esteem and leave them feeling far more 'labelled' than they need be.
Schools are now in a competitive market, judged by performance. Heads are reluctant to accept challenging students as they will impact results and behaviour. I agree with the comment above ^
I can see a huge number of new Pupil Referral Units being opened by LA's too as 'proble' children are excluded by all local academies and the LA's are legally required to educate them.
Oh, and whilst I'm here:
It genuinely saddens me that the end of a state run, democratic, education system happened in my lifetime.
No more need for any teacher to be qualified will certainly help drive down costs!!
@aa They should fix this. All teachers should have to be qualified, private or state.
@footflaps I will say in general state controlled entities are far less well run. My daughter has numerous examples from her first hand experiemce of local authority state, non-prift and private sector. She chose tomwork for the state and quickly became disillusioned, yes there are many talented, dedicated, hard working people but they are undermided by dross who in the private sector would be fired.
Taking schools out of local authority control makes a lot of sense. What remains a major concern is how parental control can take a very unpleasant turn
Funny how they dont want to build new grammar schools that seem to do quite well in the league tables
Grammar schools are foo politically devise, I am sure there are many who'd like to build more buts its not a policy which is executable at the moment
[i]Taking schools out of local authority control makes a lot of sense[/i]
I'm genuinely interested in what control you think LA's exercise over schools.
My concern is one of ownership and accountability - neither of which seem to be very well defined for academies.
bikebouy - Member
Over bloated, over funded gravy train until you retire/then s**** whilst eating off your final salary pension pot MAWCB's.
Aren't you a banker?
[i]final salary pension pot[/i]
You do know teachers don't have final salary pensions any more, don't you?
Grammar schools do well as schools were judged on % of A-C grades.
It will change now when schools are judged on Progress 8 measures, so grammar schools will find it even tougher to stay on top of the tables, many of them will slip.
Taking schools out of local authority control makes a lot of sense.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that you don't know what you're talking about.
Another policy driven entirely by ideology, that won't let anything as inconvenient as evidence stand in its way. Its the private sector, therefore by its very nature it must be absolutely brilliant!
I can see why becoming an academy makes sense to some schools. But it certainly doesn't make sense for all. Particularly primary schools. Which is why hardly any of them have done so
So, yet again, we'll have compulsion from the party that constantly evangelically sings the praises of 'choice'.
Oh the....
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You do know teachers don't have final salary pensions any more, don't you?
Is the teachers scheme for England a defined benefit scheme though so still massively better than the pensions everyone else will get?
I've just tried putting my mates salary for Deputy Head outside London into the calculator (£68K) and was surprised to see that the pension forecast is actually 12 times what non teachers would get with a typical money purchase employer contribution in the private sector.
The calculator forecasts an annual pension of £69K if no lump sum taken and the teacher works to 67. Even allowing for teachers paying more in as an individual contribution, the defined nature of the benefit means that the someone is picking up the slack on the nature of the benefit and it can't be the teachers based on the level of personal contribution.
https://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/members/calculators/estimate-your-final-pension-value.aspx
@footflaps I will say in general state controlled entities are far less well run. My daughter has numerous examples from her first hand experiemce of local authority state, non-prift and private sector. She chose tomwork for the state and quickly became disillusioned, yes there are many talented, dedicated, hard working people but they are undermided by dross who in the private sector would be fired.
This is very much what I witnessed over about 6 years in 2 different roles as service provider to public sector. There's a lot of people who seem to be "accepted" as disengaged and bare minimum performers, who in the private sector would be on a performance management plan to either get them up to speed or out of the operation.
Something I observed first hand many times was the lack of decision making and "buck stops here" accountability, meaning that rather than making decisions, things were allowed to go wrong, then yet another "oversight"/"strategy"/"management" committee layer got added on top, and when they failed, another layer was added on top of them as well. The correct course of action would be the classic 100 day plan, root out poor performers and drop in fresh talent from a bank of available interims, to deliver a short sharp shock and reinstate peak performance.
I remember from my own education how there were absolutely useless teachers who didn't care, couldn't teach, and had no interest but were still there. I now have a friend who's a deputy head who says this is still an issue, but there's no structure to performance manage someone out or up to speed. They'd pretty much have to do something unspeakable to be got out. That's a major issue, and hopefully something a new structure would resolve. There should be no tolerance of poor performance when it comes to educating our kids. We would quickly complain about it in other areas, so this should be no different.
@jambayla...I see your evidence is as inadequate as the governments for this drive...they have no robust evidence it works and yours is based on one person's perspective (your daughter)...incredibly weak evdience to justify rolling out Acadmeies to all....
just5minutes - I suspect something's gone wrong with your calculation or the values you used.
[url= https://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/members/your-scheme/retirement-planning/types-of-retirement/normal-age-retirement.aspx ]https://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/members/your-scheme/retirement-planning/types-of-retirement/normal-age-retirement.aspx[/url]
and that's based on someone using the old rules due to the date they joined the profession.
you sure you didn't look at the lump sum he could take?
[i]there's no structure to performance manage someone out or up to speed[/i]
I suggest that depends on
a) the school management not the LA - the legal mechanisms are there to do it
b) is not typical of all schools - I know several LA schools locally who have performance managed staff out.
The binary argument of private/public is unhelpful..neither public or private is the answer by default.
What is important is the objectives. The problem with current privatisation model is trying to cut and paste a corporate business model onto a social market - it doesn't work in the best interests of the people.
Many examples of bad practice where numbers are valued higher than service users...e.g. carers for the elderly only being given fifteen minutes to visit an elderly person in their home. It doesn't work.
I know of a head teacher of an Academy that was told by their business expert to forget the children and start thinking about the numbers.
I suggest this numbers game is also displayed in this thread by people in support of the move - talking about numbers, money etc and not the actual young people's needs.
Instead of thinking the private sector has the answers for the social market - people should be coming up with a model that has the service users needs at heart AND maximising efficiency at the same time...
my prediction:
Academies will be allowed to rely heavily on classroom assistants.
in other words, use them to replace teachers.
(instead of 1 teacher per 30 kids, we'll have 1 classroom assistant per 30 kids, with 4 or 5 CA's reporting to 1 'teacher')
Totally agree with wwaswas & Edenvalley.
If the decision was based on evidence that students in academies perform better than those who are not in an academy, I would say, yep, grounds for change. But no such data exists.
The issue is, that the decision is not focussed on what is best for students. Schools are not businesses that buy and sell commodities and clearly measure that. They are organisations with far more complex needs, and just dropping a 'business' solution in, will not work.
My girlfriends a teacher at an academy.
It sounds horrendous, i keep telling her to quit. The amount of work seems ridiculous, especially given the crappy pay.
Yes, rubbish teachers get fired (my gf is replacing one), but the "good" teachers, who want to see kids do well, get worked until they can't cope anymore. It seems to be a Sports Direct model of working everyone into the ground whilst paying them very little.
Regularly on a Sunday night my girlfriend is in tears and can't sleep due to the stress of going in on Monday. The pressure to get absolutely every child a top sounds ridiculous, and this is on top of the fact the teaching is already very draining. And the kids that don't get good grades can be quite troubled. How do you measure the compassion shown by academies to children who are probably being beaten at home for instance? These kids can't stand up for themselves and have no-one to fight their ground. I worry they'll be the first casualties of focusing too much on results.
I doubt she'll stay a teacher for much longer, seems to be a high dropout rate.
I've no idea about pensions, but i'd guess if they were generous and you took them away you'd need to give them all an equivalent payrise.
Sad news indeed.
To the idiots on here moaning about overstaffing in schools - what planet are you living on?
Current government seems to increasingly have a fire sale mentality. Dark days for Britain.
I don't recall seeing this in the Tory manifesto earlier this year ( I could be mistaken though )
My other half is Primary School teacher in her probationary year. Teaching 30 kids for 6 hours would be a hard day's work for most. She is in school at 7.30am, generally doesn't leave until about 6pm. Once she's home she usually does another hour or two after dinner. She spends most of the weekend preparing for the week ahead. There's very little support from the head, she's been told not to ask other teachers for help or advice as they have enough to do. She's a very sociable person but has been made to feel very isolated and constantly undermined. Today she has a job interview in a non teaching educational role. For the sake of her well being I really hope she gets this job and gets her life back. I think she probably should have been signed off but she doesn't want to let the kids down or those that have supported her over the last couple of years. She has told me of at least one of the people she was at college with that has given up and the others she keeps in touch with are similarly struggling, this experience doesn't seem unusual. I don't know about Academies but teaching seems broken, it's only the desire to do the best for the kids that keeps them going, it's not the pay or the holidays.
If academies were going to improve things we'd have noticed by now wouldnt we?
The best two schools within 10 miles of me are both academies. The state run schools are full of knife wielding neanderthals who think football is a curriculum subject.
Wow, finally conclusive proof...send you info to ofsted they'll be really happy as they have looked at all schools and are not sure!
She is in school at 7.30am, generally doesn't leave until about 6pm. Once she's home she usually does another hour or two after dinner.
Just sounds like teaching always has been and it should get easier with time. But every teacher I knew growing up did evening and/or weekend marking. On the plus side you get really good holidays.
The best two schools within 10 miles of me are both academies. The state run schools are full of knife wielding neanderthals who think football is a curriculum subject.
Probably tells you more about catchment area than anything. But that is the elephant in the room, kids who come from families that value education do much better, to some extent the school can be as sh*t as, but with proper parental support kids will still come through.
I don't recall seeing this in the Tory manifesto earlier this year ( I could be mistaken though )
Cameron allegedly made this an election promise in a speech.
@wasawas your point about "mildly" special needs kids is a very very good one. That needs to be watched very carefully.
IMHO left wing local authoriries which have done all they can to obstruct government education polocy and reforms have brought this upon themselves.
FWIW in no way shape or form do I think state schools are overstaffed. Do I think a few redundancies at local authority education departments are overdue, yes absolutely.
IMHO left wing local authoriries which have done all they can to obstruct government education polocy and reforms have brought this upon themselves.FWIW in no way shape or form do I think state schools are overstaffed. Do I think a few redundancies at local authority education departments are overdue, yes absolutely.
A series of assertions unencumbered with facts.