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In 2018, Singapore was ranked 151st out of 180 nations by Reporters Without Borders in the Worldwide Press Freedom Index
Yeah, I think I rather Finland. Sometimes it’s about the country you want to live in rather than how good your children do at maths.
By that logic Finland's also a crap place to live so we should discount that too - it's dark half the year!
If we're only allowed to take best educational practice from places that are nice to live we need to model our schools on New Zealand or somesuch...
We've chosen PISA tests as our measure of schools with best practice. We should stick to that.
We’ve chosen PISA tests as our measure of schools with best practice. We should stick to that.
Why?
Why pick Finland? Singapore is best in every PISA test area. (..and has private schools.)
Theres the missed point again. Schools and education are about an awful lot more than passing exams. Or should be.
Both my kids go to State schools. I can afford to send them to a private one, but choose not to.
I think they will end up more balanced and happier people by going to a State school, which for me is the only measure.
Private schools game the system (easier GCSEs etc) and don't deserve to have charitable status.
TJ - you have explained your opinions several times but as myself and others have pointed out those with the money to send their kids at full fees will just send them off to an international school. You are literally talking a couple of hundred quid in cheap flights. Those are the people living at the level of society to directly influence policy and they are just going to move to next available option rather than do that.
The rest will just go back to the same broken system where no amount of bright kids will be able to magically pull money and resources out their collective arses for the system as a whole. Anything they do donate will go to a single school meaning the inner city scum will continue to be under resourced, under funded and under valued.
In short - nothing changes!
AA - I'm not going to bother debating this with you now, your attitude stinks and clearly you feel your argument stinks as well if you can't take a bit of debate without resorting to petty playground nonsense. If it was any good you wouldn't be so clearly rattled. Wail about that bollocks, love.
AA – I’m not going to bother debating this with you now, your attitude stinks and clearly you feel your argument stinks as well if you can’t take a bit of debate without resorting to petty playground nonsense.
WTF are you talking about?
Wail about that bollocks, love
Oh I see its OK for you to act like a preteen after too much sugar but others cant respond in kind to previous?
We’ve chosen PISA tests as our measure of schools with best practice. We should stick to that.
Why?
Purely because of the difficulty of comparing completely unrelated data sets. There's no obvious conversion between a PISA score and "Niceness of the country in general".
5plusn8
Member
Yawn.
As I said before, Eton is not representative of the majority of private schools. You are basing your whole concept on a single example.
No, I am not. I spoke in detail about Eton there because Mefty raised it as an example. I'm basing my argument on my personal experience of the sector, Eton's just one specific case that supports it and not even one I'd have chosen myself.
I suspect that actually, as Mefty said, Eton is one of the more generous examples.
Purely because of the difficulty of comparing completely unrelated data sets. There’s no obvious conversion between a PISA score and “Niceness of the country in general”.
That doesnt make it a good measure though. I seem to recall Singapore and other countries teach kids to pass the test, in the UK a selection of kids are chosen to do it with no prep and no real need or desire to take it seriously so using it as a measure is flawed.
No - I have explained what actually happens but you refuse to believe it in your ideological pursuit of retaining advantage for the already advantaged
Your pupils that will leave the country are the same as Schrodingers bankers - a complete illusion. I thought you claimed earlier most private schoolkids are not the super rich.
From my own experience of the school I went to I know the fact that having those motivated middle class kids in the state system drives up standards for everyone. In the experience of top educationalists we know that this this true
BTW - how you can call anyone else out for an attitude that stinks is beyond me. You are the one who want entrenched privilege at taxpayers expense and refuse even consider anything that challenges your view. Now the desire to retain privilege - thats what stinks
=
With that I am out of this. the stench of hypocrisy and snobbishness and the desire to retain privileged and begger eveyone else is frankly abhorrent and shows exactly why education reform is needed.
Why pick Finland? Singapore is best in every PISA test area. (..and has private schools.)
Theres the missed point again. Schools and education are about an awful lot more than passing exams. Or should be.
If it's not for the PISA scores why pick Finland as best practice? Oh yeah, because it's got a tiny independent sector!
That doesnt make it a good measure though.
I'm not saying it is a good measure - in fact it seems dreadful to me. The only thing that seems directly comparable to me is maths. Certainly you can't compare reading ability between people who read in different languages.
So if it’s not for the PISA scores why pick Finland as best practice?
We’ve chosen PISA tests as our measure of schools with best practice. We should stick to that.
PISA is IMO a problem. It distorts the objectives of the people running education. The objective switches from educationg people to take their place in society and fulfil a useful role, to doing well in tests with very limited scope.
Over half a million 15-year-olds from 79 countries and economies took the PISA test in 2018. They were tested in reading, mathematics and science with a focus on reading. In addition, students in some countries took tests on financial literacy and on global competence. Results of this PISA round (PISA 2018) will be released on 3 December 2019.
Hardly an incentive for schools to teach languages, social sciences, history, or anything remotely practical.
PISA is a millstone around educators necks.
Your pupils that will leave the country are the same as Schrodingers bankers – a complete illusion.
I'd guess almost every single boarder will. If you're (say) in the army moving from place to place you simply can't take kids in tow, you have to have them cared for 24/7. All the international boarders will go elsewhere, obviously. I'd guess there are very few people who board who could conveniently swap to a day school and those people will typically be kids at the elite schools and they deffo won't be sending their kids to a state school.
Tangent alert: As for Schrodingers bankers, I know a guy who moved his job role to Switzerland in ~2008 directly because of the upper rate tax increase. Related to this conversation he took three kids out of Private School here to do it. They weren't at a posh school but he still saved a fortune in school fees (International school in Switzerland wasn't pricey) plus the tax plus he lives somewhere he loves now with fantastic outdoor opportunities for him and the kids. (The South East of the UK isn't as incredibly nice as people up north imagine!)
Hardly an incentive for schools to teach languages, social sciences, history, or anything remotely practical.
PISA is a millstone around educators necks.
Schools in the UK are not judged on PISA tests thats why its not a good measure as some kids have to do a test they havent prepped for and dont care about. This is not the case in other countries.
So if it’s not for the PISA scores why pick Finland as best practice?
Its certainly closer than Singapore. Finland seems to do well on having happy kids too
PISA is IMO a problem. It distorts the objectives of the people running education. The objective switches from educationg people to take their place in society and fulfil a useful role, to doing well in tests with very limited scope.
Over half a million 15-year-olds from 79 countries and economies took the PISA test in 2018. They were tested in reading, mathematics and science with a focus on reading. In addition, students in some countries took tests on financial literacy and on global competence. Results of this PISA round (PISA 2018) will be released on 3 December 2019.
Hardly an incentive for schools to teach languages, social sciences, history, or anything remotely practical.
PISA is a millstone around educators necks.
So if it’s not for the PISA scores why pick Finland as best practice?
You have to apply, and receive an offer, before you can apply for funding… So I think it’s fair to assume that the vast majority of kids who could have made a successful application didn’t think it was worth trying, were put off by the process, or never even knew they could. My nice middle class school might have had some idea, but does Scumbag Primary down the road
Actually it can be the reverse, the school i was referring to is Rugby, they seek the kids out by working through networks that they have developed over the years with various deprived communities throughout the UK, North Kensington being a prime example.
I do know a bit about North Kensington and I imagine they have picked up kids from there because they have been involved for many years. They set up a youth club there in the late 19th century, which has since merged to become the Rugby Portbello Trust which was one of
the charities most involved in picking up the pieces after the Grenfell Tower disaster.
I’m pretty sure Finnish is a pretty simple language to learn as a native speaker (if you already speak English in which case it’s a nightmare) so more perhaps time is left for maths and science while our kids are learning to write our odd spellings and irregular verbs. No future tense, no gender, phonetic:
...you've certainly proved that English can be difficult to understand 🙂
Finland does not appear to be held back by its lack of private schools, and as importantly suffers less from the unfairness and lack of social mobility that they build into our nation.
We've gone from "Finland has the best schools because PISA tests and therefore the UK should ban Private schools" to:
Finland does not appear to be held back by its lack of private schools,
So if it’s not for the PISA scores why pick Finland as best practice?
I wasn't the one who picked Finland but my answer is: Finland scores well because it doesn't give flying duck about PISA, it just gives its kids an excellent all round education that is well financed, given sufficent ressources and has the support of the population.
Start a thread about teachers and you'll see the British attitude to teachers and education. It's either piss taking or slagging off. I've seen threads on here that demonstrate exactly what teachers are up against - the British population.
I wasn’t the one who picked Finland but my answer is: Finland scores well because it doesn’t give flying duck about PISA, it just gives its kids an excellent all round education that is well financed, given sufficient resources and has the support of the population.
Start a thread about teachers and you’ll see the British attitude to teachers and education. It’s either piss taking or slagging off. I’ve seen threads on here that demonstrate exactly what teachers are up against – the British population.
I'd 100pc agree with the support of the population explanation, but banning independent schools isn't going to help with that.
Start a thread about teachers and you’ll see the British attitude to teachers and education. It’s either piss taking or slagging off. I’ve seen threads on here that demonstrate exactly what teachers are up against – the British population.
I'd fully agree with this. I am convinced schools have the worst problem in the world as many kids have been trained by their parents to hate teachers and education.
This is why social mobility campaigners piss me off, they use statistics to blame everyone else for why the least well off do not educate themselves and move up and out. When in reality there is a significant proportion that hold themselves back because they [cATHERINE TATE MODE] hate fackin students, hate fackin teachers, no child of mine is going to fackin university[/cATHERINE TATE MODE].
I am not sure how to fix this.
Where did I see a video of some other country where there were like 60 kids in a class and they were all mega grateful to be there?
you refuse to believe it in your ideological pursuit of retaining advantage for the already advantaged
Except that's not what I'm arguing for. I'm just a cynic that can't believe people who can afford to won't just ship their kids abroad.
I thought you claimed earlier most private schoolkids are not the super rich.
Nope, not me. I went to the MoD boarding school which was a few hundred a term at most, I'm under no illusions that was typical in terms of fees.
You are the one who want entrenched privilege at taxpayers expense and refuse even consider anything that challenges your view.
See my first point. That's absolutely not what I'm arguing for. I'm saying pick your battles, this isn't going to produce anything like the results you think it will as any talent will be diluted in the shitty system we have now. Unless we invest in that system I which case the whole thing is moot.
BTW – how you can call anyone else out for an attitude that stinks is beyond me.
As I recall I haven't insulted anyone directly or indirectly in this topic. I've not use puerile insults nor inferred that anyone's parents didn't love them. Maybe that seems okay to you but it sure as hell isn't to me. You don't know anything about my upbringing and neither does he so to be quite blunt he's a **** for even suggesting it and you're not much better at this stage for defending him. This is that point where you need to take that step back, I know he's a prick but I also know you're better than that.
Oh and TJ you need a mirror mate your prejudice is once again clouding your judgement, you haven't conceded a single point and yet you say:
you refuse to believe it in your ideological pursuit of retaining advantage for the already advantaged
You are the one who want entrenched privilege at taxpayers expense and refuse even consider anything that challenges your view. Now the desire to retain privilege – thats what stinks
the stench of hypocrisy and snobbishness and the desire to retain privileged and begger eveyone else is frankly abhorrent and shows exactly why education reform is needed.
You came into this discussion with that opinion and nothing has changed, you are so blinkered and prejudiced its unbelievable.
Many here have said, we are not well off, yet we are working hard to pay for our kids education because the local scheme sucks.
When you get your own kids you will realise that you will do anything to help them, its just normal human behaviour.
But you want to insult all of us as elitist scum when really we are just dedicated parents.
Most people here are just concerned that the social justice warriors will take away what we have worked for because 'its not fair'.
The discussion is just us trying to understand why the local system is ****ed and why the private schools are better and how to fix it.
I think it is unreasonable for anyone to expect that I should sacrifice my child's chances, that I have made huge sacrifices for personally, to benefit someone else's kids.
mefty
Member
Actually it can be the reverse, the school i was referring to is Rugby, they seek the kids out by working through networks that they have developed over the years with various deprived communities throughout the UK, North Kensington being a prime example.
Ah, thanks- makes sense, Rugby are quite inspirational across the sector, not just for widening access to the school but for the community work too... so many institutions treat that like the new cool idea to shout about, but they've been doing it basically forever without ever making it into a big deal. There's something about the whole setup that just feels solid and... well, inspired isn't the right word, because they make it feel matter of fact and obvious, not inspired, like it's the only way they know how to do things. And they don't brag, or use it as a PR or marketing tool.
In fact we've paid them the sincerest flattery ourselves- we basically ripped off the Arnold Foundation for our own fundraising, it's a superb model for steady, effective philanthropy as opposed to vanity projects and personal interests. And very scalable too. Unfortunately it's very hard to use their overall approach as a model since so much of it relies on "have a massive sustainable income from property you've owned for half a millenia", but still. Find a painting worth £10 million quid in the attic? Get it sold quick, don't waste a penny on insurance and galleries, we're a bloody school.
Ironically the best word I can use to describe the whole approach, is "class" 🙂
This is why social mobility campaigners piss me off, they use statistics to blame everyone else for why the least well off do not educate themselves and move up and out.
While I understand the 5plus8 is doing the internet equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and going la-la-la-la because I don't play by his rules for the World wide web maybe someone else can print out to him what an absolute Boris he sounds like. Educate themselves? Pull themselves out of the gutter? What century are you in? Or maybe what private school ivory tower?.
Maybe those stats they quote are to point why the inequality is happening and how to fix it, rather than blaming everyone else. Like getting rid of exclusive private schools.
From your posts I'd venture a guess that you've never actually met anyone with the attitude you describe, and if you have, perhaps they adopted the attitude because they've run into one too many self righteous knobs who fail to realise just how lucky they've been, how much they received through no work if their own, while telling those with the least to go out and get do it themselves.
As I recall I haven’t insulted anyone directly or indirectly in this topic
Wail about that bollocks, love
cormolpolly selective quoting, more ignoring. Read the rest of my post, try not to call people knobs and the adults will talk to you.
Also AA and OOB & Squirrelking, I like all your posts, you are making good points that need exploring. However externally, watching you to converse, AA, I worry that you might be like this in the classroom, when someone gets it wrong I would hope you would encourage them into the light, right now you are passing out Welsh Knot's like sweets. I imagine you are the consomethinge professional, so perhaps it is pent up classroom frustration, you can't say it there but you can here? I've got used to it, find it endearing almost, but it does sometimes get in the way..
And OOB & SK, AA is this all the time on the rugby thread too. Ignore the barbs, he's worth listening to, thinking about.
My last point on this thread because I frustrated by the total refusal to listen to any viewpoint other than that of entrenching privilege by some. Evience and arguement is ignored.
I have made it clear several times I would not ban private schools. I want them to pay their way and not be subsidised massively by the state. Private schools clearly are another transfer of money from poor to rich.
We are one of the most unequal and class ridden societies in europe. This damages everyone. Private schools are part of the mechanism of perpetuating privilege.
I want them to pay their way and not be subsidised massively by the state. Private schools clearly are another transfer of money from poor to rich.
Other people have made the point, and demonstrated that there would be a net loss to the exchequer if they closed. You are ignoring it because it pisses on your argument.
Evience and arguement is ignored.
You don't say...
You don’t say…
I know right, its like a ****ing one way valve.
Ignore the barbs, he’s worth listening to, thinking about.
Group hug?
I worry that you might be like this in the classroom, when someone gets it wrong I would hope you would encourage them into the light
Kids are kids they are supposed to be idiots its there job. I struggle with adults who are idiots, I like to say what I think and not split hairs.
Kids are kids they are supposed to be idiots its there job. I struggle with adults who are idiots, I like to say what I think and not split hairs.
Fair point, like I said, doesn't bother me, but it does cause you bother when you could be getting your point across. I am only speaking from my own experience of being an intolerant bastard.
I like to imagine we are all in cosy lounge with a few beers and its just a robust conversation, you can call em a berk and buy me a pint. In text everything seems so threatening.
I'm not going to jump on the spelling, its a mistake I make all the time..
its there job. I struggle with adults who are idiots
Teh ironing. 😉
Luckily we preserved it for posterity CFH. 🙂
Other people have made the point, and demonstrated that there would be a net loss to the exchequer if they closed. You are ignoring it because it pisses on your argument.
As people have said time after time, in the unlikely event of the schools being banned it wouldnt be done in isolation, they desire of so many on here to simplify a complex issue ao they can bash the left is very......TrumpyBoris
As people have said time after time, in the unlikely event of the schools being banned it wouldnt be done in isolation
and the point I have made time and time again is that if you believe this, you trust any govt to not just make a nice vote winning gesture and not back it up, then you are specially deluded. I'd back it all the way if they escrowed 15k a year per pupil with a politically independent oversight committee..
Teh ironing
Poor spelling 2/10 please try harder!!!
If you believe this, you trust any govt to not just make a nice vote winning gesture and not back it up, then you are specially deluded. I’d back it all the way if they escrowed 15k a year per pupil with a politically independent oversight committee..
Great so you agree I'm right, thanks, you got there in the end!!!
I agree you are deluded.
And a bit slow on the uptake. I made a similar statement pages ago and you have only just appreciated it now.
Unfortunately it’s very hard to use their overall approach as a model since so much of it relies on “have a massive sustainable income from property you’ve owned for half a millenia”, but still. Find a painting worth £10 million quid in the attic? Get it sold quick, don’t waste a penny on insurance and galleries, we’re a bloody school.
The Arnold Foundation is all new money raised and does not rely on the original endowment, which actually is used to fund places for local children. The school puts effort in but no significant money. That said, it did invest a small amount in reconnecting, and generally being more proactive, with its alumni. That has no doubt enabled them to raise such significant new funding.
mefty
Member
The Arnold Foundation is all new money raised and does not rely on the original endowment, which actually is used to fund places for local children
Yes I know, like I say we nicked it. But the Arnold foundation is also pretty new, so obviously I wasn't referring to that.
(seriously, you know about the Sheriff endowment and its ongoing impact, and it couldn't possibly be clearer that I was referring to that not to the Arnold foundation. So were you just looking for something to disagree with?)
Anyone seeking inspiration from their example can emulate the arnold foundation, and their centuries of pragmatic, sustainable management of property and funds. We might even manage to get some of their ethical/moral stance to stick in the modern culture of beancounters and marketeers. But we can't just magic up a load of million pound properties in W1. The real miracle is that in all that time, no bloody idiot sold the lot for a quick buck- I know it's come close a couple of times.
cormolpolly selective quoting, more ignoring. Read the rest of my post,
I selected the parts that I took issue with. The rest was irrelevant. It didn't change the context of what you said, not did I quote something you didn't say. If you expressed yourself poorly by all means restate and we can go from there.
I suspect that you accidentally said exactly what you think, without realising what you were saying
Maybe address the content of what you said, instead of who is disagreeing with you.
try not to call people knobs and the adults will talk to you.
I agree you are deluded.
And a bit slow on the uptake
So knobs = bad but deluded and slow on the uptake = good?
Bit of pot, kettle, black going on there, no?
I actually never said you were a self righteous knob, if you identified with that, maybe that's your subconscious with niggling doubts. Whereas you directly targeting someone with a personal insult. If you are going to hold yourself up as the adult in the room, maybe you'd do better to model adult behaviour?
I am aware of the original endowment but in many ways there is nothing exceptional about what the school is or was doing with it compared to many other schools with similarly large endowments, whereas the Arnold Foundation, and its success, has really changed the way alot of Boarding Schools look at things. BTW the Chairman of the Governors when the Arnold Foundation was set up was a beancounter.