[Closed] The abolition of faith schools

Yes.

Yes

Yes.

Another yes from me

Religion has no place in education, just as facts have no place in religion

One of favorite Simposns quotes.
I have no kids so shouldnt really comment on education threads but its ridiculous that in this age we allow the state to subsidise or even allow religious schools.

Hear hear.

There is still a requirement for a ‘daily act of collective worship’ in the national curriculum FFS.

An STW total agreement thread?!?

Wow. It’s enough to make you believe in miracles.

And, to continue the agreement, yes.

Yes
PS private schools DO suck from the state by being "charities".

Yes. Especially up here where the question of what school you went to carries a whole different level of baggage.

Yes

But the difficulty is they are often "better" than non-faith schools, so very popular with parents. It would be a very brave (or foolish) politician who tried to abolish them.

It depends ...
What do Momentum think?

What do Momentum think?

Based on the show of hands in this thread?

No.

Motion carried. No card vote necessary.

Yes

Yes and

PS private schools DO suck from the state by being “charities”.

this.

Ban all faith schools in Ireland where they have crippled the whole place and fostered intolerance for decades, in contrast they're pretty harmless in the rest of the UK so leave them alone.

As said above, in the England/Scotland/Wales closing the best schools seems a monumental vote loser so I doubt anyone will be doing it any time soon.

Yes. Wrong in so many ways.

Too simplistic a question I think.

Church of Scotland: your children can't come to this school!
Glasgow's Catholic immigrant community: why not?
CoS: because you're Catholics!
GCIC: oh, okay. Can we establish our own schools then?
CoS: if you must
GCIC: okay then

(years pass, Glasgow faith schools often outperform their 'secular' peers)

CoS: hey, why are you separating kids for primary school? Bigots!
GCIC: uhhh....

I can't speak for faith schools in other cities, but in Glasgow you do not have to be Roman Catholic to attend a Catholic state school.

It's also inaccurate to suggest that children educated at faith schools do not learn about other cultures and religions.

And as for private schools "not sucking much from the state" - who do you think has paid for the training and education of the majority of teachers employed in private schools?

Yes... but...

Yes - faith schools are simply a way of indoctrinating impressionable children and especially in the glasgow case entrench sectarianism.

As said above, in the England/Scotland/Wales closing the best schools seems a monumental vote loser so I doubt anyone will be doing it any time soon.

No one is suggesting closing the best schools - just making them a part of the mainstream

yes.

My youngest attends a faith school and my wife works in one.

Yes, they should be abolished.

Yes.

No one is suggesting closing the best schools – just making them a part of the mainstream

So just removing faith as a selection criteria, or preventing the teaching of all religions in any school or just the promotion of one religion over another?

I'm in favour of expanding the 50% rule to all schools, but (even as a semi-militant agnostic) I think they do have a place in society, as church (or temple or mosque) schools for the community that are open to all.

Mrs Dubs school is run by nuns and is nominally a Catholic school, but they are not exclusively Catholic. It's a more of a community school with a Christian ethos (not the take everyones money and rape young boys way, more the be kind to each other thing)

Yes, my opinion is that people should be able to make their own minds up when they are ready and not have a religion forced on them as a child.

As a governor at a C of E school, I would take exception to them being classified as all being indoctrination factories, but, yes there is no rationale for them in this day and age.

Remove all aspects of faith from schools - selection and teaching bar comparative religion. If you want your kids to be taught your religion do it outside of school hours.

I went to a catholic school and arguably got a better, broader education than my primary school friends who all went to the local state Comp.
They were much better at fighting than me though as a result 😉

My Kids go to a catholic Primary school and hopefully will attend the Catholic high school too.
It is still a much better option than the other state schools in the area and I cant afford a private education for them.

EDIT: I should add, that although a catholic school, they learn a lot more about other cultures and religions than they would at the local state primary too

Discrimination is discrimination, even if its long standing and happened for perfectly legitimate historical reasons.

You have to ask why do religions want to educate children (at the taxpayers expense)?

They would always deny that "indoctrination" was the reason, but they sound like tobacco companies talking about advertising.

We don't believe it really affects anyone.
Then why do you expend so much effort on it, and cry so loudly when we try to stop you doing it?
Just reasons.

My children go to a faith school and my wife teaches at a different one.

No.

Curious to know if there are any religious folk here who say yes?

If you want your kids to be taught your religion do it outside of school hours.

Nice try, some parents cant even teach their kids how to use the toilet

EDIT: I should add, that although a catholic school, they learn a lot more about other cultures and religions than they would at the local state primary too

Stop posting positive things about Faith Schools. Especially Catholic ones! This is STW.

I know,as a matter of fact, because I read it on here, that Catholic schools regularly send disruptive children for Exorcism.

I suspect that this falls into the camp of "simple solutions to difficult problems", which rarely work out, so I'm going to with:

'I'm not capable of giving an answer without much more careful study and thought'

ossify - I beleve saxonrider has come out against faith schools

Mashr - then they don't ant them to learn about their religion then.

mashr,
Learning to go to the toilet is necessary
Learning (particularly) your parents religion is not.

Especially not at taxpayers expense.

So just removing faith as a selection criteria

Or more accurately removing attending church for several months prior to application as a selection criteria.

even as a semi-militant agnostic

How on earth does that work? Isn't it a bit like calling radio phone-in shows to go "no comment"?

As a semi-militant atheist I have no problem with religion being taught in schools at an academic level. So I suppose, that'd be theology rather than R.E maybe? I don't see how teaching "Christian people believe X, whereas Muslim people think Y" is particularly problematic.

What is problematic to my mind is teaching a single religion as fact, this simply has no place in a modern mainstream school. If parents want to indoctrinate their kids then whilst I don't personally agree with it that's their choice, but it should be an extracurricular activity.

What is problematic to my mind is teaching a single religion as fact, this simply has no place in a modern mainstream school.

Is that happening now, in 2019? Really? It certainly didn't happen to me in the 80s.

No.

How on earth does that work?

Basically, I don't know, and you don't either, so stop saying you do. But it's a discussion for another thread.

Is that happening now, in 2019? Really? It certainly didn’t happen to me in the 80s.

Nope, not in the two faith schools I have knowledge of.

Nor in the one I worked in 12 years ago. As an aside; a lot of schools were set up BY the churches...so who owns the buildings etc?

tjagain

Member
Yes – faith schools are simply a way of indoctrinating impressionable children and especially in the glasgow case entrench sectarianism.

So catholic schools cause sectarianism?

Are you for real? Explain how that works?

Is that happening now, in 2019? Really? It certainly didn’t happen to me in the 80s.

I've no idea, but then I'm not confusing anecdotes with evidence.

Anecdotally: We said the Lord's Prayer and sang Christian hymns every morning at least up until the end of (non-faith) junior school. RE at my (non-faith county high) school was solely centred around some non-denominational version of generic Christianity, I don't recall any other faiths ever getting a mention. It was a while ago now but I'm fairly sure it was presented as fact rather than as an academic exercise (one of the first things I remember the teacher telling us was, "Jesus was who he said he was, or he was the greatest con-man who ever lived").

Isn't that the very definition of a faith school though, one that teaches an individual faith (I expect the degree varies both by the faith and the individual school)? If that's not the case then surely it's simply a pointless exercise in exclusivity.

religion being taught in schools at an academic level. So I suppose, that’d be theology rather than R.E maybe? I don’t see how teaching “Christian people believe X, whereas Muslim people think Y” is particularly problematic.

I did R.E as a GCSE in the 90's (at a non faith school) and that's essentially what it was. We looked at various topics then compared how different groups viewed that topic. Looking back I think that's a great idea and should be something everyone is taught, maybe it would create a greater level of understanding and tolerance in kids before they get too old and set in their opinions!?

It was optional though, only reason I chose it at the time was because I didn't want to do geography 😜

As an aside; a lot of schools were set up BY the churche

The majority of those schools though were funded by the government though.
The churches, as now, just took taxpayers money and claimed the credit.

Ultimately this question really comes down to tolerance for me.

If people want to send their children to faith schools, that's entirely a matter for them.

Secularists(of which I am one) should not be allowed to impose their views upon them.

As long as there is a demand for faith schools, and that they implement the national curriculum, correctly, it's all fair do's.

I really don't get why I should be able to impose my atheism on others.

Which is what this is all about.

No

Why “abolish”? Surely your beef is with the funding as charities?
Or just “I don’t agree with this group, I want their school banned” which is what most of the above comments sound like to my jaded old ears

No

My both my children are at secondary and primary Jewish schools - not religious,
Both schools are fully inclusive and so far over the last 10 years I’ve not seen any indoctrination.

Cat amongst the pigeons

What about Muslim schools should they be allowed ??? Labour wouldn’t know what way to turn 😂

Some HUGE sweeping statements in a few posts.

If this was any other thread they'd be called out for the goggled eyed stupidity that they are.

But it's a religion thread, so all the outstanding norms of this forum go out the window.

promote monoculture and normalise religious discrimination at an early age.

My kids have had multiple visits to Mosques, Synagogues and Hindu Temples ... throughout the school, on the walls, there are always many pieces of work encompassing different religions.

faith schools are simply a way of indoctrinating impressionable children

Really ?

I really don’t get why I should be able to impose my atheism on others.

You seem to be confusing secularism with atheism.

dissonance

Subscriber
I really don’t get why I should be able to impose my atheism on others.

You seem to be confusing secularism with atheism.

regardless the point is the same, the motivation for all of this is generally for people to attack what they don't like.

regardless the point is the same

That you say its regardless makes it fairly clear you dont actually get the distinction.
I would be as opposed to a school pushing atheism as I am to faith schools.
Especially in those cases where it is either used as a form of covert selection or, at the opposite end, the only choice in the area.
If parents want to bring their kids up on in a faith then go to sunday school etc. Dont use the school system to do so.

I said "promote monoculture" in the OP because it's pretty much implicit in admissions selection from a single religious background. The Catholic church is even more explicit about it (for both senses of the word "promote").

"For certain leadership positions ... there is a requirement that the position be filled by a practising Catholic in order to maintain the Catholic ethos of the school."

Whatever you think about private schools they provide an alternative to the state system, increase variety and don’t suck much from the state.

Faith schools, on the other hand, are funded by the state but explicitly reduce the education opportunities available within the state system, promote monoculture and normalise religious discrimination at an early age.

I agree 100% with the abolition of faith schools, but unfortunately BOTH of your opening statements are completely wrong.

The problem with private schools has been adequately covered on the other thread, but while I don't think faith and state-based education, I also don't think that they "reduce opportunities", "promote monoculture" (wtf?!?), or "normalise religious discrimination at an early age". If anything, a good faith school should be promoting inclusivity based on the fundamental integrity of every human being.

Please, carry on with opposing faith schools. I'm on your side. But don't do it based on caricature.

"Surely your beef is with the funding as charities?"

No. Faith schools are funded in the same was a other state schools (to all intents and purposes). So it's not "I want their school banned" it's "I don't want to fund their school".

dissonance

Subscriber
regardless the point is the same

That you say its regardless makes it fairly clear you dont actually get the distinction.
I would be as opposed to a school pushing atheism as I am to faith schools.
Especially in those cases where it is either used as a form of covert selection or, at the opposite end, the only choice in the area.
If parents want to bring their kids up on in a faith then go to sunday school etc. Dont use the school system to do so.

I get the difference, but carry on deflecting from my point anyhow...

This question doesn't come from a noble aim, it's generally bigots using it as a vehicle to promote their views.

Promote monoculture I've covered already.

Reduce opportunities is simple. There are n schools in the state system. There are m schools that select on entry. There are therefore n-m schools available to those outside of the religious selection criteria. The number of education opportunities is reduced, particularly because the catchment area for schools is so small. Same as if Tesco started only selling to one religion, your choice of supermarkets would be reduced.

Normalise religious discrimination is also easy. "Mum, why can't I go to Elsbeth's school?" "Because she's a Catholic and you aren't". Or even "Sir, you're a really good teacher are you going for the deputy head job?". "No, I'm an Anglican and it's only open to Catholics".

This question doesn’t come from a noble aim,

Your ability to read minds is absolutely astounding. Perhaps best not to judge others by your own standards?

it’s generally bigots using it as a vehicle to promote their views.

So the people saying schools shouldnt push specific views are the bigots promoting their views.
Interesting logic there.

I don't really have to read peoples minds, we've already got people on the thread directly saying catholic schools 'entrench sectarianism'.

It was optional though, only reason I chose it at the time was because I didn’t want to do geography

It wasn't at my school, it was a core subject for all five years. You could opt to take additional RE as a GCSE subject come Options time but if you didn't you still sat the base lessons (with no exam at the end).

But it’s a religion thread, so all the outstanding norms of this forum go out the window.

No, it’s a religion thread, but it doesn't get any preferential treatment because of that. The Report Post link works just like on every other thread should someone say anything which you believe contravenes the forum rules.

Faith school supporters seem to argue that faith schools apparently do nothing faith related(!) but yet are still different in some special way.

Apparently these 4 facts are true of faith schools;
1. Don't indoctrinate pupils into a religious viewpoint.
2. Teach about all faiths equally (and never as fact)
3. Are fully funded by the state with no additional funding from the church in question.
4. Are legally allowed to discriminate, in a limited way, in the pupils they accept.

So which one could possibly explain the advantage that separates them from state schools?

I'll wait while you realise that faith school proponents are claim that 1, 2, and 3 are true and then always try to explain why 4 is not the fundamental reason for their success.

No.  As an atheist I'd not send my kids to one but if I was religious I'd probably consider it, we have some in town and they rate highly with Ofsted. Believe it or not children can actually mske their own minds up about religion, I did despite going to a faith school.

I don’t really have to read peoples minds

You do when you decide thats the position everyone is coming from.

we’ve already got people on the thread directly saying catholic schools ‘entrench sectarianism’.

Depends if they are correct. They were referring to a specific area which I have no familiarity with so not sure how valid it is.
However it shouldnt be controversial to note that, in some areas, faith schools have resulted in increased sectarianism.

So which one could possibly explain the advantage that separates them from state schools?

I'm not sure they do have an advantage? I mean, there are good faith schools cited here but are there more 'good' faith schools than non-faith ones?

The most fundamental argument against faith schools is NI.
I've said on here before that, growing up in NI, I didn't knowingly meet a catholic until I was a teenager. Its still true there today, and just as tragic.

That was fairly weird and extreme situation, but I fail to see how state funded sectarianism (which would be illegal in any tax funded sphere outside school) has somehow come to be seen as the magic sauce to improve educational attainment.

I’m not sure they do have an advantage?

One clear advantage is covert selection based on parental involvement. If you have parents willing to turn up at church every Sunday for several months prior to sending the forms in you can be confident those same parents will continue to invest in their kids education. As per the other thread if you have parents doing that you will generally get better results.

The most fundamental argument against faith schools is NI.

I'd say extreme rather than fundamental is more the word you are looking for.

The segregation of NI society isn't replicated in many places.

growing up in NI, I didn’t knowingly meet a catholic until I was a teenager.

Outside NI that situation just won't be recognised my many.

growing up in NI, I didn’t knowingly meet a catholic until I was a teenager.

Growing up in England I didn't either but I've still no idea of most people I know religion.

Pretty timely thread for me. Had to go to school last week to chat with the teachers. Had our five year old (year one) calling me and his mum liars whilst crying his eyes out. All because the teacher had told him that god invented the world, people, animals etc and his mother and I disagreed.

One clear advantage is covert selection based on parental involvement. If you have parents willing to turn up at church every Sunday for several months prior to sending the forms in you can be confident those same parents will continue to invest in their kids education. As per the other thread if you have parents doing that you will generally get better results.

Yup, that's the advantages of Faith Schools covered. Trying to get parents to vote for investing less in their kids is going to be a difficult sell.

any preferential treatment

I wasn't having a pop at mods.

More pointing out that this place self-governs pretty well for the most part.... Pie's without bases, Mumford and sons and sweeping statements (apart from when in a religion thread, it would seem) are quite rightly meet with derision.

And for the record you'll not catch me ever reporting anyone.... I don't like the thought of an all seeing, omnipresent being casting down damnation and ban hammers from up upon high.

What about Muslim schools should they be allowed ??? Labour wouldn’t know what way to turn 😂

😀 During the Cultural Revolution "all" religions were abolished because of idol(s) worshipping with the exception of Islam. According to my grandma/pa they were left alone because they don't have idol. They have "calligraphy".

mean, there are good faith schools cited here but are there more ‘good’ faith schools than non-faith ones?

There are definitely not enough non-faith primary schools in our local area to go around, so in our area, the answer to that is yes.

So catholic schools cause sectarianism?

Are you for real? Explain how that works?

we’ve already got people on the thread directly saying catholic schools ‘entrench sectarianism’.

What school did you go to?

Ever been asked that question?

Round here that's an extremely loaded question.

Outside NI that situation just won’t be recognised my many.

I'm sure if you took a walk around any area with an Orange Lodge you would find a lot of people that could.

regardless the point is the same, the motivation for all of this is generally for people to attack what they don’t like.

I don't like sectarianism. Anything we can do to eliminate the notion amongst some folk that there is an 'us and them' is fine by me. It's a disease that people seem to be unfathomably tolerant towards, yourself included. Maybe it's ignorance or maybe they don't care but how would you explain to your five year old daughter that her friends from nursery are going to a different school, with a different uniform, different teachers and a different head in the same bloody campus with literally a plaster wall between them? Its ****ing insane!

Down in Ardrossan they are wanting to build a similar campus and already the objections are flying, these are the kind of people who complain to the teachers if their kids get put in the green reading group!

What school did you go to?

Ever been asked that question?

Aye that question is definitely the fault of catholic schools. catch yerself on..

Outside NI that situation just won’t be recognised my many.

I’m sure if you took a walk around any area with an Orange Lodge you would find a lot of people that could.

So catholic schools should be banned because orange folk are bigoted... Perfect sense.

You seem to be taking this as an attack on catholics. It's not. It's an attack on the bigots. I know the historic reasons for seperate schooling but this is the 21st century FFS.

The only schools they want to shut in Scotland are Catholic schools. Up here it's a direct attack on them by bigots. The question may be different elsewhere, but that's exact what it's all about up here...

I'm actively against pandering to those bigots.