That old chestnut. Parking charge questions

Sadly, the original letter(s) they sent you* probably offered a discount for paying promptly

* allegedly - how you can prove they didn't I'm afraid IDK. IANAE but I think they only have to 'prove' posted - if the RM sod it up, I don't know why you get the hassles but that's my understanding.

Yeah. Pretty impossible to prove I didn't get letters 😭

Changed address recently? Didnt update your V5C? They may have traced you now using a credit reference agency. The £160 probably includes debt collection fees which wont be enforceable in court however a loss in court will be around £220. First thing to do is submit a subject access request to the data protection officer for the private parking company asking for all documents relevant to this PCN. It is probably £100 discounted to £60 but the discount has long gone. Make an offer to pay the £100 to the PPC. You can ignore the debt collection letters but dont ignore any court type papers.

Get over to Pepipoo for more detailed advice. Dont use money saving expert, they are mental on there.

In English law, a letter is deemed to have been delivered if it can be shown it was posted.

You could contact the parking management company requesting proof of posting of previous notices; you could write to the owners at their registered address - looks like a home address - which is on companies house.

Consider asking if they have 'sold the debt' to a collection agency.

You could contact the community association using details on their website; explain circumstances and ask them to intervene.

If they do and you like the result, make a donation.

You can bugger about on pepipoo - I wouldn't bother.

Is it a lease car? Letters go to the lease Co as the legal owners.

Letters go to the lease Co as the legal owners

Letters should go to whoever the registered keeper is, which is not necessarily the legal owner. Who the keeper is will depend on the leasing agreement.

However any leasing company will deal with this on a regular basis, and if they do receive such letters, will forward them quite quickly.

Lease companies either pay the invoice and pass on the cost and an admin fee to the person leasing the car, or they name the driver to the PPC who then restart the PCN process sending a fresh PCN to the named person.

At this point the OP is in damage limitation mode, it's gone past appeal and cancellation, the only chance of that is the land owners and the OP has denied them their revenue from parking so can't see them being very keen to intervene this late on.

Best thing to do is to try to negotiate directly with the PPC to reduce the amount back to the original £100.

The OP also does need a copy of the original PCN which is why I said submit a SAR, it may not be POFA complaint in which case it won't be enforceable. If the OP does communicate with the PPC do not admit who was driving, all they can then do is pursue the keeper if the PCN is POFA compliant.

Also why I said post it on Pepipoo where people can give you proper advice on the technicalities.

If its your car, registered to you (not lease or company)and you haven’t moved in the last 6 months its very odd you missed all the other letters reply stating the debt is denied.

its been sold on and there is no contract

Go to pepipoo and get real advice, ignore the absolute twaddle posted above.

or pay it.. your choice

ignore the absolute twaddle posted above

Ignore Martyns advice apart from the bit about Pepipoo. The debt will not have been 'sold on', if there was a valid contract between driver and PPC it will still be valid.

its been sold on and there is no contract

This is factually incorrect.

1. The driver enters into a contract with the parkng company by the act of parking (provided signage is compliant).
2. PPC contacts DVLA for keeper details.
3. Keeper tells the PPC who the driver is provided the PCN is POFA complaint and its not in Scotland (POFA doesnt apply in Scotland yet), otherwise the PPC can pursue the keeper. If the PCN is not POFA compliant the keeper can decline to name the driver and thats the end of it.
4. Debt recovery agencies are used to send threatening letters to encourage people to pay.
5. Final step is the PPC can take the keeper to court.
6. Failure to pay after a court judgment would result in a CCJ.

The 'debt' has been sold on? If you can evidence that, fine; if not, it's only your opinion masquerading as a fact.

Check out Royal Mail's performance stats covering undelivered mail - steadily worsening; OP is well within his legal rights to request proof of posting.

Common sense says...contact the land owner/lease holder.

Pepipoo isn't the only source of 'real advice' as you put it.

The OP has options which you have chosen to ignore.

Common sense says…contact the land owner/lease holder.

Always worth trying and known as Plan A but unlikely to work in this case for the reasons I've cited. The land owner / leaseholder will have contracted the private parking company to enforce the land owners rules.

If the OP wants 'proof of posting' they will need to submit a subject access request for the PCN to the data protection officer of the private parking company.

Anyway up to the OP.

It's a private van owned by me by the way.

UK. Parking fines is a f-in joke. Look on reddit for similar stories.

Are you a gambler by nature ? Do you have strong nerves ? If so ignore with no acknowledgement of any kind , my wife has done it with this company and I have too, they will write to you punctually every month for six months and then like magic the letters stop coming and you hear no more . Their business plan is to send out enough scary letters in the hope that some people pay up to avoid confrontation, going through a lengthy legal process to get a few quid parking fine is not worth their while. Just our experiences. Do not ignore genuine PCN issued by police or local council though.

If they have genuinely failed to ever send you a PCN, then you have a case. The question is, how much of a fight are you willing to take on. If the lease company have failed to pass on the PCN, then they are now liable.

I had similar a few years ago. Lease company only sent me the front of the PCN. I wrote back and told them 8 needed to see the back as well as either it was POFA in which case it the original PCN had not been sent in time, or is wasn't POFA and I would not tell them who was driving. Didn't hear back for 6 months, then got forwarded a debt collection letter. Responded to the least company with a copy of my email asking for the rear of the PCN. At this point, they realised their blunder, paid it and no more was said.

@jamesco thats fine up to a point but many of the PPC will takes cases to court, if you get to that stage ignoring it will most likely result in a CCJ and a problem with your credit rating. I dont recognise the PPC on the letter, must be one of the smaller ones so dont know if they are litigious or not.

As you say depends on how lucky the OP is feeling. If it does go to court failing to engage earlier in the process will go against the motorist.

@Onzadog, the lease company cant just pass the PCN onto you, they have 2 choices, pay it and recover the costs from you, many work like this and it will be in the lease contract, or they have to name you as driver in which case the PPC has to send a PCN to you in your name. It is true though a lot of lease companies stuff up the later option so the driver can often avoid paying it.

@stumpyjon

I'm just relating what happened to me. I got an email from the lease company with a scan of the front side of the PCN. They might be able to tell the PPC who the keeper is, but they don't know who the driver is.

Which leads into another interesting story about a red light camera and my wife and I happily telling the police, to the best if our ability, the two people who had been driving the car that day, around that time.

I’ve just written a long explanation of what we did, you’ll get bored. I’ll just give you the highlights!

1. Go and see a solicitor, just walk in, there’ll be a cheap flat fee (or least there was).
2. Sign an affidavit in their presence stating you didn’t receive the original letters.
3. Send a covering letter to the parking company with the affidavit by a ‘signed for’ service offering to pay the original ’charge’.
4. Wait and see what happens. Ours went to court (in our absence) and the court just told the parking charge issuer to invoice us for the original discounted amount.

No advice, I just wanted to say that these companies are ****ing parasites.

I went down the ignore it route. Not sure the lost sleep was worth the £60 original charge. They stopped sending letters after a while then I got a last ditch attempt just before the 5 or 6 year deadline. In hindsight I'd have just stumped up the cash and moved on.

Which companies?

The private parking ones? The debt collection agencies? Or the companies / organisations that use them to enforce their parking?

I'll tell you where I am. I don't 'like' them either, I wish they didn't exist. I wish they didn't have to exist, rather. There's undoubtedly some shady operators still, although with regulation far fewer than there were, and with robust appeals processes now they don't get away with anything like what they used to. But they have to exist because without, a significant enough proportion of the GBP will abuse the system that goodwill breaks down.

I used to manage a small company in a little industrial unit on the edge of a town. The town had ample paid for parking. We had five spaces allocated in the ind unit that we paid rent for. The GBP would regularly - like every week - steal our spaces from us. The excuses were always the same - "I'm just nipping into town, I'll only be 10 minutes.  "I'm just picking a friend up from the houses further down the lane and I can't park on double yellows.

We even left signs out saying that they could be used before 8am and after 530, or at weekends so the residents could use them. The same few would abuse it - still be in there after 9 - by which time my staff were having to park in the town centre car parks and I was having to allow them to expense parking.

I was verbally abused frequently, and threatened on a couple of occasions when I double parked and blocked them in and they had to come to the office and ask me to move it.

So we looked into using a PPC and even then still opted to try to manage it ourselves.

So no, I don't like them, but if people didn't steal others property from them, they wouldn't be needed.

And FWIW - get caught, get a penalty charge (that is legal, Beavis vs Parking Eye / high enough to act as a deterrent / not just losses incurred) - pay it, boohoo. By all means appeal if it is incorrect / unfair (as above seems to be) but people getting off on loopholes because there was a leaf over part of the sign or whatever, **** off. You knew and got caught, suck it up.

Sorry, a view from the other side.

I was verbally abused frequently, and threatened on a couple of occasions when I double parked and blocked them in and they had to come to the office and ask me to move it.

Then don't be a mincer and clamp these vehicles. If you are holding their car to ransom then you hold the cards

These hidden camera, hidden sign 3pt font small print arseholes should be illegal. If you want parking paid for then have a gate and a bloke to enforce.

So OP you have a number of options.

1. Ignore it and hope it goes away, it might but they have up to 6 years to sue and a loss in court would cost you around £220 OR a CCJ if you dont pay it. Factor in worry if you are that sort of person.
2. Pay it in full now, bit painful but its done with.
3. Try and get the land owner to cancel it, good luck with this one in your case.
4. Contact the PPC and see if they will settle for the original £100.
5. Contest it on proper grounds as I outlined above but you will need to have copies of the original PCN to do it and that defence will be in court, you're well past appeals and POPLA now.

Dont get a solicitor involved it'll be faster and cheaper to pay the £160.

Most of the 'advice' above is unfounded and uninformed speculation. theotherjonv is right if the GBP didn't abuse private land there would be no need for enforcement but like everything in life a small proportion of people mess it up for everyone else.

Then don’t be a mincer and clamp these vehicles

This has been rightly illegal since 2012 in mainland UK for very good reason. Camera based systems give people the opportunity to appeal, having a clamp on your car amount to extortion. There are strict standards around signage and conditions which if not adhered to allow the motorist to appeal.

The GBP would regularly – like every week – steal our spaces from us

I'm sure there are plenty of other solutions for your problem rather than employing some shyster, profiteering third party that preys on people's fears and dresses up outrageous charges as official fines. Cones or couple of posts and a chain perhaps?

Join FIGHT YOUR PRIVATE PARKING INVOICE #1 appeals forum 

on Facebook, you'll get informed advice there.

In a nutshell the landowner has put the debt in the hands of a debt collector for now, they add their fee to the original "fine", usually about £60, hence the demand for £160, they'll often send demands for increased amounts to scare you. Letters from the debt collector can be ignored as only the original landowner or their solicitor can take you to court, if this happens you will receive a Letter Before Claim, this cannot be ignored and at this point you either pay or go to court, if you ignore this you'll end up with a CCJ.

Not all landowners bother taking people to court, so it's a bit of a waiting game, as above they have six years. The landowner can only demand the original fine amount if I remember correctly, so you don't have a great deal to lose by waiting.

@kayak23 Well that's cleared that up. If you weren't unsure of your next steps, you surely are now. The only clarity is the repeated 'don't listen to him/her/that' claims made very forcefully. The rest,  hmmmm...

Then don’t be a mincer and clamp these vehicles. If you are holding their car to ransom then you hold the cards

You can't. It's illegal, even on private land. Blocking a car in because 'there's nowhere else outside MY offices because you took the space' is according to the local bobby also illegal but more justifiable (we spoke to them on this, their advice was private land, nothing they could do but clamping would definitely be illegal. They suggested - employ a reputable PPC)

These hidden camera, hidden sign 3pt font small print arseholes should be illegal.

They are. You'd win an appeal on that as easy as falling off a log.

If you want parking paid for then have a gate and a bloke to enforce.

We didn't want it paid for, we just wanted it left for the owners. Should you need a gate and a bloke to stop people parking on your drive?

I’m sure there are plenty of other solutions for your problem rather than employing some shyster, profiteering third party that preys on people’s fears and dresses up outrageous charges as official fines. Cones or couple of posts and a chain perhaps?

The cones with signs on them got thrown in the dumpster. Posts and a chain - considered but we'd have to take them down at start of the day and wouldn't stop people taking space while they 'nipped into town' and then putting them up at night / weekends removed the facility from the residents who in the main did play nicely. Just a few pricks that ruin it for everyone else.

Re outrageous charges. As I said Beavis vs Parking Eye, has to be big enough to act as a deterrent. It's a purely functional, a company set up to monitor by CCTV, or a person in a van that can do multiple car parks in an area vs (back to the OP) the Wythenshaw Community Association having to do the job themselves. Where do you stand on council issued fines, for parking on road for example? Just the companies, or the principle?

on Facebook, you’ll get informed advice there.

Did you type that with a straight face 😆

In a nutshell the landowner has put the debt in the hands of a debt collector for now,

No they havent, the land owner isnt involved and the debt collector is just being used to send speculative scary letters by the private parking company.

Letters from the debt collector can be ignored

Correct

only the original landowner or their solicitor can take you to court

Completely incorrect, the contract is between the motorist and the private parking company, the private parking company can sue for non payment of the invoice. All the land owner could do is sue for trespass, this is why private parking companies exist, if it was that easy for land owners to do it themselves the whole private parking industry would disappear.

The next bit about letter of claim and not ignoring it is good advice, the letter of claim will come from the PPC not the land owner.

The landowner can only demand the original fine amount

Sort of correct, it wont be the land owner and the overall loss in court will be around £220, the courts usually strike out the debt collectots 'fees' but not always but there will be other costs in addition to the original £100 invoice.

Ok, so it turns out that I'm an idiot.

I started wondering this morning whether there might be an outside chance that I had received an earlier letter and just missed it.

The reason I might have is, like many of us, I don't get many actual letters these days and the only letters I regularly get that look official are business bank statements which I never open, because I do everything online and they won't let me go paperless.
I just collect them on a shelf and then eventually get around to filing them.

So yeah, had a little look on my usual statement pile and to my great regret, opened up a suspect looking letter and immediately saw the LPS logo, and my heart sank.

Oops... 😭

Off to suck it up and pay it now. 😐

Not sure if I may have had some before this but it's possible.

Thanks for the help everyone and sorry to waste your time by me being a twonk 👍

Go sit on the naughty step...

Stumpyjon

Are yes correct it's the original parking company, my mistake, was doing it from memory from a few years back, as for not getting good advice on the FB page there are quite a few on there who know their onions.

You're not alone, dont sweat it. Looks like it could be POFA compliant based on the day of parking and the issue date, need to find the original letter and see if it does mention protection of freedoms act on the back?

The PPC may still take the £100 if you make the offer, from their point of view its another one paid and closed. Be honest, say the original letters got mislaid, which is true, worst that can happen is they say no and you pay the £160.

Ouch! Bang to rights, you're goin' daahhhhn!

Not to sound all smug but having daughter nearly fall foul of something similar (missing important (e)mail in this case) I have instructed her, and my son (I tried my wife, but like the red car thread, some wives won't be told) on 'good practise'. They probably ignore me, but.....

Works for email and real mail - but where email is more immediate you might need to do it 2 or 3x a day, whereas post you can do twice a week.

1/ Try to touch stuff once - this 'I'll do that later' is great, and then you lose stuff or it disappears in a pile and then you get a penalty charge on top, etc.

2/ Set aside time to do it - so the next point works - and try to resist permanently reading (particularly) email

3/ Open mail and then action it, or delete / bin it. This might mean for mail leaving it a couple of days and then setting aside half an hour to do it, or having 2 or 3 sessions of email per day - but then do it.

4/ Some stuff doesn't fit in that 30 mins - eg: having to shop around for your house insurance. Have a specific action file that you go to every week when you have time to do it.

5/ Check your junk folders regularly - and maintain safe senders lists to avoid losing stuff that nearly cost you a University place !!

I'm really not this boring as a Dad or in real life.....

I remember before the law was changed to make the registered keeper responsible for paying the invoice, it was the driver who had to pay.

The problem then (for the parking companies) was that the driver & the registered keeper may not have been the same person & the registered keeper was under no obligation whatsoever to identify the driver.

I used to work at a firm where, amongst other things, I was responsible for looking after the company vehicles, (which were all registered to the company), in respect of making sure that everything was up to date (tax, mot, insurance, serviced on time, etc) & now & again would receive parking company invoices, so all I'd do is return their invoices with a covering letter which told them to resend their invoice to whoever was driving the vehicle at the time...