[Closed] That Maxxis "babes calendar" article...

That doesn't even make any sense. You've suggested there is a 'ban the calendar brigade' - I'm asking you to provide some evidence to back up that statement (which you obviously can't because you made it up).

How is that a straw man argument on my part? I directly quoted you. 😕

Objectification isn't sexism. By definition. Which you yourself posted.

Where?

As it goes, my understanding of objectification is where one is treated more like a thing than a person (someone who undergoes subjective experience). This encompasses sexism.

"Objectification isn't sexism. By definition."

Say it is many times as you like, it's wrong. Objectification isn't always sexist, but in many - especially this case - it couldn't be clearer!

1. I do think sexism exists. I don't think this calendar is sexist.

How do you define sexism?

2. "I am a man therefore my opinion in this is devalued" is a fundamentally sexist attitude

I have not said that. I am also a man.

3. I am telling no-one anything. I am simply putting across my opinion. Some people don't seem to like my opinion so are very keen to tell me I'm some sort of neolithic misogynist. Funnily enough I take objection to that.

I think you are being a little naieve that's all. As I used to be.

4. A grown person banning girls from watching star wars is a pillock. Children tend to separate into boys and girls on all sorts of things. This is not sexism, though obviously it could develop if left unchecked into adulthood.

There was no banning, explicitly, but there was labelleing. And the labelling was damaging. As an isolated incident, it's not much of an issue, but speaking as a parent it's absolutely bloody everywhere. Girls do this, boys do that. You are right that girls and boys do separate on SOME things (not many, and far from all kids) but the problem is society assuming that you like or dislike certain things BECAUSE of your gender, and labelling things as suitable for girls or boys. And sure, boys might go to the truck aisle and girls to the doll aisle in a shop, but why? Largely because society has conditioned them to want to do those things, by making out that the alternative is some kind of weird choice or not acceptable. Their parents do it just as much as they do, so what choice to they have?

My kid might love trucks, but if she's made to feel weird for liking them then it's going to piss on her chips a bit isn't it? And this kind of attitude is so pervasive it has a deep and lasting effect. We take our cues from the society in which we live.

It's good if you are genuinely not sexist, dan, that's great and I will retract that allegation if I made it, but I think you should put a bit more thought into why things like this calendar can be sexist.

I think Maxxis really ought to get a grip - I mean, they should know to tread more carefully. In this day and age, they need a marketing strategy with real traction, otherwise they will eventually feel the pinch when their customers spend their money elsewhere. This may well deflate the brand entirely.

They are promotional models used at commercial events and shows, as many car manufacturers, tv manufacturers soft drink manufacturers, Motorsport and cycling events do.
They made a calendar like much the same as other glamour calendars with proceeds going to charity.

I am also a man.

As am I. Let us shake hands and talk about the big game.

Pirelli managed to do something a bit different for 2016 though chip.. why not Maxxis?

So the logic goes that if other companies do sexist things to sell things, then it is OK?

The fact the money goes to charity means nothing at all, it doesn't absolve the sexism in any way.

Those poor Maxxis Babes will now have lost income as a result of all this furore. I guess some will say they deserved it on account of the way they dressed.

fourteen pages before dannyh comes along! 😆

Molgrips and faustus:

Define sexism:
Discrimination solely on the basis of gender. I'm not getting my dictionary out but that is a perfectly normal working definition.

There is no discrimination inherent in the calendar ergo not sexist. It may inspire sexist views in some small minority of people but I don't think you should ban everything because of a small minority of muppets.

grum:
You quoted a phrase in quotes! You don't want to ban it, you just don't want anyone to make it, or anything like it, ever again. Explain that logic.

I think Maxxis really ought to get a grip - I mean, they should know to tread more carefully. In this day and age, they need a marketing strategy with real traction, otherwise they will eventually feel the pinch when their customers spend their money elsewhere. This may well deflate the brand entirely.

We had two recent threads on MMA and josh what's his face.
Did they use promotional models (ring girls), where was the disapproving 14 page threads then.
I hope all you real men who believe this is sexism boycotted these fights.

Objectification is one form of discrimination, and a common one at that. It perpetuates the societal conditioning of females as sexual objects, for the gratification of men. The calendar is therefore a pretty obvious bit of objectification and 'ergo' discriminatory sexism. How can this not be sexist apart from you saying it isn't!?

You quoted a phrase in quotes! You don't want to ban it, you just don't want anyone to make it, or anything like it, ever again. Explain that logic.

I assume that like me he wants people to understand why it's negative and not do it, rather than simply ban it.

fourteen pages before dannyh comes along!

To be honest, I thought it had been a bit of a let down until now, so thought I'd make a serious point.

@cumberland

Considering no-one here had even heard of it before all this palaver do you now all suddenly feel free and un-objectified, or has it really not made one tiny bit of difference to your life?

I wasn't the one who was being objectified but equally I don't work for SportsDirect it doesn't stop me from expressing my distaste for the way they treat their employees for example. Something that by comparison, was brought to my attention by a newspaper journalist recently.

If Maxxis have closed down a particular facet of their marketing as a result of this debate and Adele's article then I do feel better yes. A point was made , primarily that this type of device creates ill feeling toward your brand which we would otherwise be happy to support. Why did it create that ill feeling because is was sexist by objectifying women.

Well done to @scotroutes for his internet trawling (DYSWIDT!).

chip - Member

I think Maxxis really ought to get a grip - I mean, they should know to tread more carefully. In this day and age, they need a marketing strategy with real traction, otherwise they will eventually feel the pinch when their customers spend their money elsewhere. This may well deflate the brand entirely.

We had two recent threads on MMA and josh what's his face.
Did they use promotional models (ring girls), were was the disapproving 14 page threads then.
I hope all you real men who believe this is sexism boycotted these fights.

Got one!

I'm putting chip in the landing net and packing up my gear and going home.

Ironically 'chips' would go well with the bloody great fish I've just landed!

[quote=surroundedbyhills ]Well done to @scotroutes for his internet trawling (DYSWIDT!).
😆

I guess it does raise the question; why take it off the UK site and not the German one (and I've no idea if there are others)? Are attitudes that different across borders? Does it give those in the UK a feeling of being on the higher moral ground?

What's the difference? That you get to feel morally superior and retain your liberal status rather than being part of a culture which bans things it disapproves of?

Adele seems to think its OK in other contexts (presumably such as motorsport). So is it ok so long as it doesn't come into your field of view?

Perhaps the 'answer' to sexism in society is education rather than faux-outrage at a silly calendar?

It's not about my moral superiority or 'liberal' status as you so kindly put it (not that gender equality need be liberal of course). It's not about some nanny state banning either, it just shows we've reached an empasse where you can't admit something is sexist, even though you've basically defined it as such. The answer to sexism is education for sure, but also to stop pretty bad examples of it! It's not faux-outrage either, it's defending an important issue.

Perhaps the 'answer' to sexism in society is education rather than faux-outrage at a silly calendar?

Just to make it clear - I'm not expressing outrage, faux or otherwise.

My point is about how sexist attitudes can still be damaging despite increased equality in society.

Adele seems to think its OK in other contexts (presumably such as motorsport). So is it ok so long as it doesn't come into your field of view?

What's your point? Presumably the 'babes' in the calendar think it's ok too. I don't.

Discrimination solely on the basis of gender

That's sexual discrimination - sexism is more than that. What would you call the subliminal imposition of gender bias onto society? You have another word for it? What about the subliminal oppression of women (more controversial, that one)

Well faustus, I explained why I thought it wasn't sexist. You are using a different definition to me and on that we really are splitting hairs. You are talking about a society wide ill by using that term, I am talking about an 'in the moment effect'. If we adopted each others definition we would probably agree (to an extent).

So far as the important issue bit goes I don't actually think that smutty images 'cause' sexist behaviour, and as such the target is wrong.

That's my opinion that is. You don't have to think the same as me. Even if you're female 😉

Got one!
I'm putting chip in the landing net and packing up my gear and going home.
Ironically 'chips' would go well with the bloody great fish I've just landed!

Curry sauce, can't have chips without curry sauce.

[img] [/img]

I don't think it's a different definition, and we're never going to agree. But it's got to that 'we'll have to agree to disagree' platitude moment!

I'm assuming you checked my name, so i'm happy to say that you don't need to be a female to be a feminist 🙂

Curry sauce, can't have chips without curry sauce.

I appreciate your point here - but not with fish as well. Chips and curry sauce = fine. Battered sausage + chips + curry sauce = fine. Fish + chips + curry sauce = not fine. Mushy peas with fish and chips. Always.

However, having see how some of the other threads have gone in the last day or so, I don't want to start a sub-thread with you on something that is truly important and likely to inflame passions on all sides. The last thing this place needs is a thread that really turns nasty.

You are using a different definition to me and on that we really are splitting hairs.

Hmm I don't think it's a small difference. Just look at this thread. Someone was dismayed or upset by the calendar, and we've had 15 pages of people telling her she's overreacting, and to calm down dear... so we're trying to say why it's an issue. Call it sexism or something else, it's still an issue.

I'd be interested to know if you have kids, dan - not because I want to be self-righteous (I hate that) but because it can be an eye opener and an interesting experience.

Seriously though, does all this shite binners keeps posting actually make anyone think "What a great guy, i wish i could be like him"? Or does it just inspire other thoughts?

molgrips-

That's sexual discrimination - sexism is more than that. What would you call the subliminal imposition of gender bias onto society? You have another word for it? What about the subliminal oppression of women (more controversial, that one)

Splitting hairs again I think. I'd call it normal to [i]some [/i]degree. We can all try and treat people equally but fundamentally you will never be able to eradicate some level of gender bias. Men and women are different after all.

Is this calendar and its ilk really such a strong influence? I seriously doubt it.

Is this calendar and its ilk really such a strong influence? I seriously doubt it.

Still on first base. Tsk.

[quote=molgrips ] we've had 15 pages of people telling her she's overreacting,
Actually, a few of those posts have been pointing out her hypocrisy. That can be the case whether or not she was right [i]on this occasion[/i].

Molgrips -

If you read the thread i have covered the kids bit, and yeah i do. And ones a girl. And it really doesn't seem to be a big deal. It would be a healthy lesson to her to realise that some men like to look at tits but don't actually think of women as good for nothing but lying on their backs and making tea (that right tyson?). Unfortunately some do, banning (or removing from sale) a few calendars isn't going to change that.

We can all try and treat people equally but fundamentally you will never be able to eradicate some level of gender bias.

Hmm. Men and women are slightly different, but that doesn't mean one has to have the upper hand.

There's a lot written about this. Gender pay gap, for starters.

Unfortunately some do

Yes. The point is that the calendar is intended to be displayed in a communal if not public manner. So everyone gets to see it. From the sexist man to the insecure woman.

Imagine if someone produced a slave calendar, with pictures of black people working in cotton fields, and published it in say Missippi. For, you know, historical interest. Cos of course slavery is banned now so it's all ok, right? That battle was won 150 years ago.

Education said somebody. I used to despair of my teaching resources they were so blatantly sexist. If ever there's a time people learn to conform to their sex stereotype it's at school. Astronauts are men, footballers are men, building workers are men, nurses are women, biologists are women. There has been a recent attempt to remove sex and race stereotyping in school books but it's still there, even in the comic posters teachers put up:

[img] [/img]

I used to pick my kid up at "l'heure des mamans".

does all this shite binners keeps posting actually make anyone think "What a great guy, i wish i could be like him"? Or does it just inspire other thoughts?

well I certainly hope he doesn't drink Tennents..

I think binners is a top bloke.

Do you think if a shipload of little girls washed up on a desert island and were looked after by wolves they'd grow up to worry about makeup and lingerie? Really?

This would make a great experiment. What would happen if after 10 years or so a similar aged boy washed up on the same island?

This would make a great experiment. What would happen if after 10 years or so a similar aged boy washed up on the same island?

I think we all know the answer to that one............

I think Maxxis really ought to get a grip - I mean, they should know to tread more carefully. In this day and age, they need a marketing strategy with real traction, otherwise they will eventually feel the pinch when their customers spend their money elsewhere. This may well deflate the brand entirely

Seems they've gone boobless.

It's back online.

Just gonna throw this in here.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/

Very interesting grum my initial thoughts are what about people who swear they were born in the wrong body and seek out transgender surgery. Does that mean the thought of being the opposites Sex and all the stereotypical things that go with it are just more appealing to them,

I agree with the point about an outdated sexist attitude in society but as that slowly slowly changes we cannot then go backwards, the can o'worms is open.. we move forwards with a new progressive idea about objectification. I'm not sure objectification is actually 'wrong' as such.

Force feeding society bizarre un-natural images of perceived perfect people is wrong imo and should have clearer guidelines to protect the naive mind but there are signs of very small changes, opening up our attitudes towards sexism and objectification means we need more of this type of thing not less, it just needs to be fair and realistic combined with a long term view on educating well rounded people.

It is a very complicated matter but an interesting one. Thanks 😀

Does that not sound a bit odd when you read it in your head?

Its not the womans world, its not the mans world, its just the world

Lolwut? Did it not sound odd in your head originally, before I just reused your terminology?

good for nothing but lying on their backs and making tea

That sounds quite hazardous, I wouldn't recommend it.

If ever there's a time people learn to conform to their sex stereotype it's at school. Astronauts are men, footballers are men, building workers are men, nurses are women, biologists are women.

I see this quite a lot in board games too, though the tide is turning. "The next player does x on his turn" sort of thing; particularly grating when I'm going through a rule book with the person I play games most with, my wife.(*) Thinking about it, gaming generally is pretty bad for it, my missus likes video games but doesn't particularly want every character she ever plays to look like Marcus Fenix. But I suppose that's a whole other conversation.

(* - quiet at the back)

but there are signs of very small changes

Yes, as mentioned - Pirelli, the most famous calendar maker changed theirs and it was widely covered. Makes Maxxis &co look all the sillier tbh, and results in far better publicity for Pirelli than any calendar could imo.

I personally dont mind playing lara croft or chun li .. has anyone thought about asking Adele if she would like to cast an eye over this thread?
I'm sure there are plenty of anecdotes for more column inches.

[img] [/img]

I personally dont mind playing lara croft or chun li

I quite often choose to play female characters; they're often just better. Though I suppose that's because they're usually portrayed as more agile, spellchuckers, archers and so forth rather than brute force characters, which suits my play style but I guess just reinforces the stereotypes.

I'm absolutely bouncing off the walls in anticipation for the new Tomb Raider game at Christmas, though (-:

[url= http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/lara/alisoncarroll/eidos_official_01.html ]nothing to see here[/url]

Seriously though, does all this shite binners keeps posting actually make anyone think "What a great guy, i wish i could be like him"?

I think he is managing to perfectly mock the defenders of this and I would rather have a beer with him than you

I think he is managing to perfectly mock the defenders of this and I would rather have a beer with him than you

Careful, you're being sexist again. Just because he's a bloke you go assuming that he likes beer. Honestly, you people. If you were to offer to buy me a beer in such a prejudiced way, I would be mightily offended. Just try me.

its ok I will pass

Foiled again.

I once drank a cup of tea in the back of a lorry in the rain with 3 of the Maxxis girls. That's all

Three girls one cup?

Seriously though, does all this shite binners keeps posting actually make anyone think "What a great guy, i wish i could be like him"?

To be honest with you, I've never even thought that. On account of having the self awareness to realise what a monumental bell end I am. So I do it as a sort of compulsion. Really it's a cry for help. I try to laugh through the tears, as I rock back and too, gently sobbing. My tears cascading onto the keyboard like a leaky colostomy bag.

Can I have a brandy and babycham please JY? I'm feeling a bit emotional. People can be so hurtful.

FWIW - I find Adele's article on STW almost as offensive as the Maxxis calendar itself. Each are in their own way, naively out of touch with the reality of life.

If you really don't like a company's marketing ethos that much...simple, don't buy or associate your self with that brand. In the meantime, there is no need to preach your views.

[quote=skydragon ]FWIW - I find Adele's article on STW almost as offensive as the Maxxis calendar itself. Wait until you read some of her other stuff.

I couldn't help myself....I had to Google Adele...In her website biog, she states 'I was beauty editor at Just 17 magazine'

FFS, I've just spluttered half my IPA over myself... how the hell can someone go from promoting the brainwashing of young, impressionable teenage girls into believing self-image, style and beauty is all important, to having the views she now promotes.

As a father, Just 17 IMHO is far more damaging to females in our society than a bloody Maxxis calendar!!

#Kettle/Pot/Black

I'm sure that whatever mistakes she made in the past, it was all a mans/all mens/societies fault.

self awareness

A much undervalued commodity. Especially in the internet age where a person's ability to get their opinion 'out there' leads them to confuse this with some kind of entitlement to be listened to.

Nah. It's just shouting through a loudhailer into a shipping container.

Metaphorically

A shipping container full of misogynists on this occasion 😛

how the hell can someone go from promoting the brainwashing of young, impressionable teenage girls into believing self-image, style and beauty is all important, to having the views she now promotes.

it's called growing up - one reason why young people shouldn't be given the vote...

Sorry, I've not been keeping up with this all day, and there's a couple of oldish posts I feel compelled to reply to (I've not yet had my camomile tea).

[quote=cumberlanddan ]

edenvalleyboy - Member
@cumberlanddan...question for you. If a group of women told you they thought the calendars were wrong..what would your answer to them be?

Which reminded me of a conversation I had with a car driver I had whilst out cycling recently (yeah I know 🙄 ) I suggested (very politely and calmly) that he had cut in a bit close to me. He told me that he disagreed with my opinion. Because clearly despite being further away from the left hand side of the car than I was and in a far worse position to tell how close to me his car was, his opinion was just as valid as mine.

Makes you think, doesn't it?

16 pages? Crikey!

To trot out the tired "as a father" trope...

Probably the most dangerous thing I worry about isn't a bit of be-Tango'd tat but the worrying way that so many of the self righteous amongst you seem to thing that the way to put you opinion across is to be as condescending and, if I'm honest, bullying as possible. In fact, sod that you are bullies, the classic definition of a coward who wouldn't say boo to a goose in person but suddenly becomes the ****ing mac daddy once they're behind a screen and shielded by relative anonymity.

Those "trolls" you read about? Thats you. Maybe a bit more vindictive, but its exactly the same behaviour just taken a few steps onwards. Some of you need to take a long hard look at yourselves and engage your brains, you wouldn't get away with this shit in work so why the hell do you think its remotely acceptable in the wider civilised society you all seem so keen to be a part of?

Cumberlanddan - I hope that answers your question. I don't agree with your overall point (though I'm not that long from having the same opinion) but can see where you're coming from. Objectification isn't healthy but for far more serious reasons than sexism; body image and such. There are plenty of tasteful ways this calendar could have been produced but they missed the mark. Not the worst example in the world though, I'll definitely agree, though it does set a poor impression of motorsport in general.

In the meantime, there is no need to preach your views.

My irony filter just exploded.

So if I'm reading this right...

1) You're right, and we're all wrong?
2) you can express your views, but anyone expressing an opposing view, as they tend to be in the majority (funny that, innit?) is a bully and a troll?
3) it is offensive, but only on purely aesthetic grounds?
4) their are far superior examples of the genre out there?

Bigger tits?

We shouldv'e had a poll on the thread which would have saved atleast 10 pages

Oh I don't know. I've learnt a few things. Not least why Jim Davidson still has a career

Wow, 16 pages and still some pretty backward statements being strongly defended.
Just wanted to say that Molgrips totally gets it - thanks Molgrips.

Sounds about right squirrelking.

aracer, the two things are really quite different. What you've done is confuse your opinion of what is too close with an empirical fact.

To say 'a bit close' is a judgment. If you'd said "you came within x-1 units of distance to me where x is the minimum safe passing distance", then you would have a point. However you didn't and you don't.

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Thanks fionap 🙂

Squirrelking is right though in that we tend to get a bit overly angry by default on the internet. Takes some effort not to do that sometimes.

Probably the most dangerous thing I worry about isn't a bit of be-Tango'd tat but the worrying way that so many of the self righteous amongst you seem to thing that the way to put you opinion across is to be as condescending and, if I'm honest, bullying as possible. In fact, sod that you are bullies, the classic definition of a coward who wouldn't say boo to a goose in person but suddenly becomes the **** mac daddy once they're behind a screen and shielded by relative anonymity.

Those "trolls" you read about? Thats you. Maybe a bit more vindictive, but its exactly the same behaviour just taken a few steps onwards.

Can you post some examples of what you consider to be 'bullying' please? Stuff like this maybe?

does all this shite binners keeps posting actually make anyone think "What a great guy, i wish i could be like him"? Or does it just inspire other thoughts?

Really grum, out of all the dross on this thread and thats the bit you pick out?

I thought that was pretty restrained.

Perhaps you'd like to explain how binners later contributions were remotely constructive and not some vain, pathetic and bullying attempt at shutting down the debate.

Can we all just take a moment out from the debate to consider the kids out there that are actually being bullied..

Then have a good think before we start mewling and whingeing and devaluing the word by using it in this thread

If you feel that you're being bullied please tell a parent or teacher

thanks

Perhaps you'd like to explain how binners later contributions were remotely constructive and not some vain, pathetic and bullying attempt at shutting down the debate.

Please post some examples of what you consider to be 'vain, pathetic and bullying attempt at shutting down the debate.'

Seems like you just can't cope with people disagreeing with you TBH. In fact I would say that you are massively overreacting and displaying 'faux outrage'. Oh the ironing etc etc

What's all this post examples, show evidence crap? This is an internet forum not a dissertation.

The posts are not difficult to find and noone with half an ounce of common sense will have any bother identifying them.

Hi!

Gripper Stebson here - younger readers may need to look this one up.

Sorry - just dropped the girls off at gymnastics. Then we're off to football as the eldest has a league game at 12.30. She's shaping up into a pretty solid centre back. Loves it, and takes it very seriously. [url= https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_Stoney ]this[/url] is her role model. But having read and inwardly digested the wisdom of this thread, I think I'm going to have to have words. I think she needs to accept that she can aim higher.

She needs to be looking at more like [url= https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_(people)#Glamour_modelling ]this[/url], as as a career it's something to aim for. Not only is not remotely demeaning to women, and doesn't just reinforce sad, tired, lazy, sexist and misogynistic stereotypes, it's actually the total opposite! It's actually really empowering for the girls involved, as they're the ones in control and making money, right?

Can't wait to see her first Calender! I can only imagine my pride in seeing that one rolling off the presses to grace the garage walls of a grateful nation. Then we can raise a glass to how empowered she's feeling, and how good it is to live in a society that banished inequality all those years ago

I hope its for tyres!

This is an internet forum not a dissertation.

Indeed. And best not to come here if you really can't handle people disagreeing with you...which, evidently, it seems you can't. If you're going to bandy about accusations of pathetic bullying, you really ought to be able to back them up. Or maybe just grow up and try not to be so pathetic yourself.

Thanks binners for providing such a stellar example of your usual work. If you weren't so busy concocting ridiculous analogies in a pathetic attempt to belittle me you would have noticed that I'm agreeing that the calendar is sexist. Try reading what I wrote again using your real world persona rather than with big hitter binners.

Plenty of people on both sides of the debate have kept it civil (Cumberlanddan and Molgrips spring to mind) why can't you?

Yunki - so because this bullying is minor in comparison to more extreme cases then it's not worth addressing? Think carefully before you answer.

My point was that instead of engaging with someone with an opposing viewpoint some folk would rather seek to suppress or coerce them into agreeing with them by means of belittling, ridiculing and demeaning them rather than with intelligent dialogue. Perhaps bullying is perhaps a strong word but it really is the tip of the iceberg as these things go and by engaging in such activity you are part of the problem.

Indeed. And best not to come here if you really can't handle people disagreeing with you...which, evidently, it seems you can't. If you're going to bandy about accusations of pathetic bullying, you really ought to be able to back them up. Or maybe just grow up and try not to be so pathetic yourself.

I said that, not him. Kinda ironic you say that since it's evident that binners (and the one we all ignored) is the one that can't handle a mature debate.