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50-64s
Racist: 23%
Not Racist: 61%
I am a bit flabergasted that so many of my age group peers don't realise that it is racist (or don't want to state that they know it is), did they conduct the poll at a druid cross burning ceremony. I think it was a conclusion I came to back in the late 80's or early 90's and it isn't as if I was mentally encaged with social issues during that period.
If she gets told by a young person that it’s racist, and she doesn’t think it is – why does that young person’s view get to trump hers? Can a treasured childhood toy be racist, just because it is interpreted that way by someone else?
Yes and yes. Times change and we hopefully become more enlightened. It’s not just a toy it’s an extreme caricature from a less enlightened time. I’m not young and I know that.
If she gets told by a young person that it’s racist, and she doesn’t think it is – why does that young person’s view get to trump hers?
I'd say it's because the owner of the doll isn't the one who can say whether it's racist or not, and the young person here understands that point and has listened. (edit, it's that cartoon on the prev page)
Listening to others rather than our own thoughts is the thing here, I think it's a mistake to go through life looking for answers to everything internally rather than accepting we can't know everything. We need to say 'I don't know?' more. Society gets more understanding in some ways over time (as much as it seems more polarised generally), sometimes we learn by being wrong and having it pointed out, it's just the nature of change isn't it.
I am a bit flabergasted that so many of my age group peers don’t realise that it is racist (or don’t want to state that they know it is), did they conduct the poll at a druid cross burning ceremony. I think it was a conclusion I came to back in the late 80’s or early 90’s and it isn’t as if I was mentally encaged with social issues during that period.
Nah doesn’t surprise me, some people just seem to be unable/don’t want to move with the times.
I didn’t have a golliwog as a kid as they were crap and didn’t really read ennnie blyton as it was a bit old school in the ‘70s.
TBH I’d have probably preferred a ss knife and flag as nazi memorabilia was popular but didn’t always indicate an affiliation to to the nf.
If I had any I probably wouldn’t be hanging it up in my pub nowadays as it would probably encourage the wrong type of clientele.
I am a bit flabergasted that so many of my age group peers don’t realise that it is racist
I'm not, most people of that age group were brought up to believe that golliwogs were just lovable cuddly toys. Since their childhoods golliwogs have disappeared and they have become a distant nostalgic memory.
I wouldn't read too much into the veiws of the average person on the matter. Although in the case of the Essex pub landlord I don't think there is much doubt that his decision to display a collection of golliwogs, some hanging by the neck from wooden beams, was driven by crass racism. I hope he is fined and loses his license.
Btw only 13% more young people thought golliwogs were racist than your age group. The vast majority, two thirds, had no opinion on the matter or thought they weren't racist:
18-24s
Racist: 36%
Not Racist: 13%
Although that could reflect the fact that many don't know what golliwogs are.
This is quite interesting:
https://www.markpack.org.uk/170836/essex-pub-dispute-do-people-really-still-think-golliwogs-are-ok/
Do you think it is or is not racist to sell or display a golliwog doll?
Isn't this grossly underportraying the behaviour under examination though?
Isn't the correct question:
Do you think it is racist to sell or display a golliwog doll hanging by the neck from wooden beams, and then to say "well they used to do it in mississippi"
Or am I overreacting?
If she gets told by a young person that it’s racist, and she doesn’t think it is – why does that young person’s view get to trump hers?
The thing you have to realise is, whether you like it or not, old people die and the oft-vilified "young people" will become the norm.
That being the case, who should we be world-building for? Even if they're wrong, even if they're triggered lefty Walter The Softy hand-wringing yogurt-knitting snowflakes, they'll be here longer than we will.
Do you think it is racist to sell or display a golliwog doll hanging by the neck from wooden beams, and then to say “well they used to do it in mississippi”
Not that it's necessarily a great deal better, but I initially interpreted "do it" to mean they hanged black people in Mississippi. Having then read the article and seen the photos I think "it" is having gollies on display and "hanging by the neck" is something of a leap.
They might well be racist assholes, but hyperbole helps them rather than hinders.
Last – I wonder what the breweries that supply them think (I just looked, it’s a free house) or CAMRA who made it pub of the year numerous times…
CAMRA jump on the banned wagon
BBC article reporting CAMRA have banned the pub from future awards.
Seems odd to ban the pub rather than the land"lord and lady" so I'm guessing it's a phraseological.
Having then read the article and seen the photos I think “it” is having gollies on display and “hanging by the neck” is something of a leap.
Did your article not show the facebook from previously? No leap for me.
not really, given that a lot of the regulars are clearly cut from the same cloth! Why would any (non far-right) organisation risk touching it with a barge-pole?!Seems odd to ban the pub rather than the land”lord and lady” so I’m guessing it’s a phraseological.
Yeah. Why even mention Mississippi - specifically the worst state known for lynchings - if that's not what you meant... even if you were blatantly trying to obfuscate it...Did your article not show the facebook from previously? No leap for me.
You really think that all they meant was that they used to have gollies in Mississippi?
You're having a laugh. For starters they're a British invention.
not really, given that a lot of the regulars are clearly cut from the same cloth!
A change of management often results in a change in the clientele for a pub.
Not to say it will change of course but it's possibly only one rainbow flag from half the customers never setting foot in there again.
Also if CAMRA start banning pubs because some or all of their clients are objectionable arseholes they won't have [m]any entries for their good pub guide.
As a slight aside, my Grandad used to be an area rep for Robertsons Jams in the 60s and 70s. I remember as a kid in the 80s that his garage was chock full of sales "memoribilia" including signs, lifesize cut outs etc. All the stuff he used to take to and collect from shops back in the day. They decided to have a clear out and it was all bought by a collector. This was back in the day before we realised how offensive it is, glad it was all gone by the time he died last year otherwise my Mum we be having to dispose of it now and probably won't like the idea of explaining it all to the people at the local tip
Did your article not show the facebook from previously? No leap for me.
not really, given that a lot of the regulars are clearly cut from the same cloth!
Having now read the Facebook post, it's pretty Gammon Central isn't it.
I’m not, most people of that age group were brought up to believe that golliwogs were just lovable cuddly toys.
Well, so was I, but I haven't spent the last 60 years in a box, isolated from all the changes in society. It is possible to learn things after you become an adult.
My kids inherited teddy, baa-lamb and neddy, who are now waiting for the next generation to cuddle them. I don't know what happened to golly, he disappeared. Was that because he was considered inappropriate or because he was not loved as much because of the colour of his wool?
I’m not, most people of that age group were brought up to believe that golliwogs were just lovable cuddly toys.
Well, so was I, but I haven’t spent the last 60 years in a box, isolated from all the changes in society. It is possible to learn things after you become an adult.
I gave a suggestion as to why a lot of people don't consider golliwogs to be racist or offensive, if you dismiss my suggestion, which apparently you do, then what is your explanation - that most people are happy that golliwogs are considered racist and offensive?
Most people have limited understanding of the racists and racism that don’t impact upon them.
“I don’t know” is unsurprisingly the most likely reply when white people in the UK are asked a question about racism.
We need to actively work towards understanding more, it doesn't come automatically.
if you dismiss my suggestion, which apparently you do, then what is your explanation
I'm not really dismissing it, it seems plausible. I just find it hard to understand how people can be so unaware of what's going on all around them.
Fairy nuff. The opinion poll also shows that 51% of young people have no opinions regarding golliwogs, I suspect it is because many do not know what a golliwog is.
If this is the case then it suggests that the contemporary conversation surrounding golliwogs has also passed young people by.
They decided to have a clear out and it was all bought by a collector.
You've just reminded me that in uni my mate's girlfriend's mum was...a golliwog dealer? She bought them up and refurbished them and sold them online or something? Very odd (even aside from the racist stuff).
The opinion poll also shows that 51% of young people have no opinions regarding golliwogs, I suspect it is because many do not know what a golliwog is.
I'm honestly surprised it's that low. I haven't seen a gollywog in decades. Outside of this thread I think the last image I saw of one was on a jar of marmalade.
The pub tenants (are they tenants or owners?) are odious racists who are, as far as I can see, don't have a single redeeming characteristic between them.
The fact their pub is popular and it's customers are unconcerned by racist imagery makes me want to puke all over them.
If they are tenants, what do the owners have to say?
braverman's comments about police involvement in the matter confirm she is also an odious racist.
I note the pub is in Grays. Inclined to think that a suitable punishment would be to extend their licence to life. Possibly moved to Canvey after 10 years for good behaviour.
@RichPenny That probably falls afoul of human rights legislation and cruel punishments.
My mum’s got a golliwog, was given to her by her granddad. Does that make her a nazi?
Nobody is calling your mum a nazi, bless her. But if a "young person" told her that kind of toy is considered hurtful caricature in 2023*, would she dig her heels in, or admit that perhaps it was a good point?
*My dad had a moneybox when I was a kid, an awful caricature of a Black man who swallowed the penny you put in his hand. I knew it was racist in 1985, never mind when I found it in the loft after he died in 2019. I remember trying to get rid of it, obviously not hard enough.
I'm currently clearing my late nans house out... she'd got about 5 golliwog statuetes... playing jazz instruments, trumpets and saxaphones etc...quel supprise.
She wasn't racicst, at least not in her later years anyaway, but kept them as they are kinda collectable...
What should I do, flip them on ebay to a racist purchaser or chuck 'em in the bin?
It's a bit of a moral conundrum.
I would have no qualms about binning hard models/sculptures.
Soft toys are more difficult, part of me doesn't like to think of a soft toy that could be cuddled by a small child being throwm away.
fez - break them into pieces and dump them in the bin.
Any memories associated with them died with your nan.
You must do what you think is right.
I love this comment on the White Hart's website:
The White Hart Inn is quickly making a name for itself and for all the right reasons. The locals cannot believe their luck as the landlord’s hobby is the keeping of real ales! Consequently at any one point in time around four or five are available and all in superb condition. He really does love his hobby and as a result of these endeavours, The White Hart Inn has received the South West Essex CAMRA Pub of the Year award 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2015, 2017, 2019 & 2020 in respect of the quality of its real ales and ambience and also the Cask Marque award for its real ales.
Mr Ryley might now need to add a new paragraph explaining how due to his other hobby, which is quickly making a name for the White Hart for all the wrong reasons, CAMRA will no longer be considering his pub. Presumably the quality of the "ambience" has become an issue.
https://www.whitehartgrays.co.uk/
@RichPenny That probably falls afoul of human rights legislation and cruel punishments.
Made me laugh, anyway. 🤣
If they are tenants, what do the owners have to say?
Most locals pubs reflect the society around them - I'd be pretty sure the owners know their potential clients and the type of landlord they needed to keep them happy.
Hence the old saying 'never drink in a flat roofed pub'!
Looks like the Daily Telegraph are about to launch a bring back Golly campaign, or that seems to be their editorial thrust at least.
Let's reintroduce a racist meme that had withered on the vine back into public discourse eh?
I wonder if the journalists there get a little thrill every time they get to sneak the W word into their copy?
making a name for the White Hart for all the wrong reasons
Depends if the clientele think they are the 'right' reasons, I guess.
Essex Police said it was conducting extra patrols in the area.
What a waste of police time and money.
Has Suella Braverman an opinion on the matter?
Pub has now closed down after suppliers refused to supply it, maintenance company refused to maintain it and CAMRA refused to endorse it. Top work good people!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-65471314
It seems there are no grey areas in the Grays area for this kind of behaviour...
No doubt Suella will be along shortly to complain about them being cancelled.
Im waiting for the ex-proprietor to get a gig on GBNews
So we now live in a country where CAMRA, breweries and maintenance contractors have a stronger moral compass than the Home Secretary?
Three cheers for Brexit Britain.
But if you want to raise a glass to that, you need to find a different pub from the White Hart.
Im waiting for the ex-proprietor to get a gig on GBNews
Maybe co-hosting one of those naff faux natural shows with our erstwhile Deputy PM. Will anyone be tuning in for 'A Round With Raab' as he muses about thwarted geniuses down the ages and airs a constant stream of made up grievances?
So we now live in a country where CAMRA, breweries and maintenance contractors have a stronger moral compass than the Home Secretary?
At this point it feels like the Tories are only holding onto power by showing their support for racism.
I really hope that's not true. It's a horrible insight into the UK if it's actually true.
At this point it feels like the Tories are only holding onto power by showing their support for racism.
I really hope that’s not true. It’s a horrible insight into the UK if it’s actually true.
It's largely true - with the exception that they'll have a pop at transgender people a bit too.
What are they actually campaigning on right now that can't be characterised as "Labour are soft on immigration/trans/whatever - the country will go to the dogs if they get in"?
I haven't heard much other than that, TBH.
The Tory party and their toadying media have been dining out on Othering people for decades. See that problem that you have? It's not your fault, it's not our fault, it's them. 👉 A dozen people with a suntan in a dinghy is the Scapegoat Du Jour currently. It'll probably be the gays next week.
They're expert at exploiting a fundamental feeling that too many people carry - the abject fear that someone else might be getting something for 'nothing'.
Seems people vote Tory because they know it means everyone will suffer along with them.
could well be that, equally could just be the fact that these days it just wouldn't make any sense for any organisation/business to touch that pub with a shitty stick so they will bin them off regardless of how they feel about it personally!So we now live in a country where CAMRA, breweries and maintenance contractors have a stronger moral compass than the Home Secretary?
EDIT: yeah just seen that the suppliers/contractors are both massive (multi) nationals so this will just be policy, nothing to do with morals! (not that it's not the right decision, regardless!)
See that problem that you have? It’s not your fault, it’s not our fault,
Despite you having been in government for 13 years!
How the **** do so many people not see through it?
when even the brexit bugle and the fail run away red faced you should know the gig is up... the last thing you should do is double down.
Sad for any bar staff that are not the owners.But for the owners:
Oh dear
How Sad
Never Mind!
Well golly, what a blast from the past. I had a couple of those 'dolls' as a child, amongst all the other teddy bears etc. A bigger new one that must've been made in the late 70's/early eighties, and a much older smaller one (my fave) which was missing his eyes. Never occurred to me that they were racist. Well it wouldn't would it, being a child? Thought they had something to do with marmalade. So were they originally made as a mean characature of black people, or is that the retrospective modern interpretation of them?
Regardless, this pub couple are clearly dicks and are displaying them to wind people up. But god knows why it requires such a heavy handed police response. Are dolls illegal? Think I remember reading somewhere that if you want the police to respond to a crime you need to shoehorn in a '...ist' element to the incident. This certainly confirms it.
What about the word 'Golly' that I opened my post with. I've been using that willy nilly as a general term of surprise. Are the two things connected?
Well golly, what a blast from the past
So is this thread....go back and read it all and try to not react just to the initial headline, but the way in which the dolls were displayed, and the fb comments from the landlord associated with them.
Then think about revisiting your post.
I meant the dolls are a blast from the past.
Read it slowly in your head.
Then think about revisiting your post.
@jambourgie - the dolls were displayed above the bar hanging from a noose. Not some misunderstood bit of harmless fun but downright nasty.
Think I remember reading somewhere that if you want the police to respond to a crime you need to shoehorn in a ‘…ist’ element to the incident. This certainly confirms it.
You think that the racist element of this story has been 'shoehorned' in? Get a grip.
<div class="bbp-reply-content">
@jambourgie – the dolls were displayed above the bar hanging from a noose. Not some misunderstood bit of harmless fun but downright nasty.
</div>
I know. I've just been reading about it. Like I said, the pub couple are clearly dicks...
Where in my post did I say this was all a misunderstood bit of harmless fun? Think I was generally talking about the dolls.
<div class="bbp-reply-content">
You think that the racist element of this story has been ‘shoehorned’ in? Get a grip.
</div>
Nope. That isn't what I said either. Gosh, we are in a reactionary mood today people.
But god knows why it requires such a heavy handed police response.
The police took them as possible evidence whilst investigating an alleged hate crime, why do you consider that to be "heavy handed"?
What about the word ‘Golly’ that I opened my post with.
I believed that the word golliwog is derived from the word pollywog which was used in the US to tease someone as being immature and naive, it actually means tadpole. I have seen Oliver Hardy call Stan Laurel a pollywog in a film of theirs. Presumably the English author who came up with the word golliwog thought that golly would be more fun to use than polly.
Nope. That isn’t what I said either.
Well, it is.
Think I remember reading somewhere that if you want the police to respond to a crime you need to shoehorn in a ‘…ist’ element to the incident. This certainly confirms it.
Nope. I didn't say that the racist element to this story had been shoehorned in. I said that I read that in order to get the police to react in the first place, an '...ist' element had to be shoehorned in. The fact that they went in heavy handed confirmed this. Wether there was later found to be any merit in the in the element is irrelevant.
Please take the time to read before reacting.
😂 yeah ok mate. 🙄
Thank you. No worries.
Yes, the golliwog has always been a racist / offensive caricature. Just because we used to live in times when that was considered acceptable, doesn't mean it actually was.
Are dolls illegal?
Of this type, in and of themselves, no. In a museum with an appropriate* explanation, acceptable I'd say.
Displaying golliwogs behind the bar hanging from nooses, the FB references laughing at the potential outrage that they knew it would cause, the BF t-shirt, etc., none of that says it was IN ANY WAY an innocent mistake.
On the basis you can tell the character of a person by the company they choose (maybe indeed the pub they drink in) if you can't see this clearly for what it is, and think it's 'heavy handed policing' - really?
* yes, an appropriately WOKE explanation.
Didn't say it was an innocent mistake old boy. Not even if you use caps. The couple are whoppers, how many times do i have to repeat myself.
Thanks for the explanation about the dolls though. Interesting to think where on earth they came from as i can't imagine my parants and grandparents procuring racist caricature for their children to play with.
Despite you having been in government for 13 years!
How the **** do so many people not see through it?
People are creatures of habit. They vote the way they do because that's what they've always done.
Are dolls illegal?
Are swastikas illegal (in the UK)?
Is plastering them around your pub a good idea?
Think I remember reading somewhere that if you want the police to respond to a crime you need to shoehorn in a ‘…ist’ element to the incident. This certainly confirms it.
Step away from the Daily Mail and stop talking shite.
Oh, I'm so sorry, if I misinterpreted your question about whether the dolls were illegal. As I believe you are clearly an intelligent person, I thought your questions were obviously leading ones. They sounded almost dogwhistley, even.
It hadn't crossed my mind that you really needed an explanation and actually didn't understand any of the context. Bad me.
<div class="bbp-reply-content">
Step away from the Daily Mail and stop talking shite.
</div>
It's ironic that with the exception of accidentally seeing a DM when one walks into a shop, the other 95% of my exposure to that newspaper is through THIS forum, people moaning about it, people quoting it, or "having a sneak peak to see what they're saying' on a subject, and especially from blowhards like you accusing anyone you disagree with of reading it. When it's clearly YOU that is overly familiar with said publication.
Wah wah wah you read the Daily Mail!
Grow up man.
😆
It's a strange hill to die on for the landlord /lady...
... But it does serve as a stark reminder of how entitled and emboldened some of the worst people in our society have become.
Grow up man.
You're not nearly subtle enough. 1/10.
Oh, I’m so sorry, if I misinterpreted your question about whether the dolls were illegal. As I believe you are clearly an intelligent person, I thought your questions were obviously leading ones. They sounded almost dogwhistley, even.
It hadn’t crossed my mind that you really needed an explanation and actually didn’t understand any of the context. Bad me.
No need to get salty. You could've just said "no, they're not illegal". I know it's moronic to display them and that they're in bad taste regarding the context. No need to patronisingly explain this. Ernie had already explained that they were taken as part of a wider investigation. As it was, I didn't know whether they'd sent in a team of police and a helicopter to confiscate a collection of dolls. And indeed, whether I was a criminal child for owning them.
When it’s clearly YOU that is overly familiar with said publication.
I scan the front pages of all the newspapers whenever I'm in a supermarket. I figure it's prudent to keep an eye on what they're telling people.
Regardless. You said:
Think I remember reading somewhere that if you want the police to respond to a crime you need to shoehorn in a ‘…ist’ element to the incident.
And then doubled down:
I said that I read that in order to get the police to react in the first place, an ‘…ist’ element had to be shoehorned in.
So where did you read that if not the gutter press? Or if you (conveniently) can't remember, could you maybe hazard a guess as to the sort of publication or web site that you do read which might have made such a statement?
Because I rather suspect that you've just made it up.
Good question. I was just trying to remember that.. it was a police whistleblower who wrote an anonymous blog which was subsequently taken down. I can't for the life of remember what it was called.
Anyone?
This must've been five years or so ago at least. Would be interesting to re-read it if possible. I remember it being really interesting.
As it was, I didn’t know whether they’d sent in a team of police and a helicopter to confiscate a collection of dolls. And indeed, whether I was a criminal child for owning them.
You thought it plausible that the police might dispatch a team of officers and a helicopter in order to collect some dolls?
Why is apologising to you being salty? I thought the tone of your querying sounded racist, but maybe I got the wrong end of the stick and you just didn't know. So I said sorry.
Having ascertained you aren't aware of the context, then I thought I was being helpful in explaining. Now I'm being patronising because it seems you actually did understand. I don't know how to tread this tightrope?
Perhaps you could clarify. Are you actually a bit racist? Were your questions a form of trolling? Or were you just unaware? It would help to clear up any further misunderstandings or allegations.
Thanks
Yes. Nothing would surprise me these days. Do you remember Derbyshire police chasing dogwalkers round the peaks with a drone during lockdown? I could go on...
Edit: that was a reply to couger's question. Theotherjonv, resorting to calling people racist just makes you look stupid. You look stupid mate.
Even if they are racist?
That said - FTR, I really try to avoid labelling people. Rather, I comment on actions, and as I say your questioning came over as a bit dog whistley. But I might be mistaken hence why i asked you to clarify.
Yes, I might look stupid but that's because I ask questions to try to clarify. With you, I'm confused and you aren't clarifying it for me.
Cougar,
The source, long gone I fear. But an interesting read if you can find it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Horton_(blogger)
i can’t imagine my parants and grandparents procuring racist caricature for their children to play with.
Except that they would have been completely fine with that, because racism wasn't thought to be a bad thing. I was born in the 50s (just) and I can remember - it was entirely normal and acceptable for white people to be racist.
It's such a shame when people are dogwhistleing trolls. Hiding behind rhetorical questions and anonymous sources. It doesn't reflect well on them.