From what I understand the captain managed to very quickly put an announcement out for people to put seatbelts on , but unfortunately there wasn’t enough warning to prevent injury. Apparently the aircraft dropped 6,000ft out of the sky 😳.
How do they know they are going to hit massive wind shear? I can’t imagine that shows up on weather radar ?
I imagine general turbulence can be predicted based on weather patterns, but this was something else.
For some reason I think it may be radar.
I'm picking my daughter* up at lunch time..... she will know (cabin crew), but someone will answer before then.
I always have my belt [loosely] on when I'm sat down.
* Apparently lots of people ignore the turbulence warnings and she loves the opportunity to shout at them!
It's amazing how bad turbulence can actually be - most people feel a few bumps and shudders and say "ooh, it was really bad turbulence..." without realising that's nothing compared to what could happen. 🤯
We took off from Manchester a few weeks ago in bad weather, was one of the worst takeoffs I've ever experienced. Plane was bouncing around badly as the runway disappeared sideways below us in the crosswind and pouring rain.
Knowing that even that was minor stuff and within take off limits is sobering stuff when you see what it could have been.
I'm not saying the incident wasn't horrific, but the figure of 6000ft of descent (over 5 min) isn't the main issue. When holding, Aircraft usually descend at 500/1000ft a min and you don't notice. Normal descent is usually between 1000 and 1500.
The issue was the aircraft dropped a couple of 100ft initially which would've caused the injuries.
From conversations years ago, I believe pilots should report clear air turbulence at different severity - based on measurements like how far dropped / sideways movement or airspeed change) and that is mapped and warnings sent to/via ATC for particularly active regions of convection. Obviously if there is big convective thunderstorms you can see by radar or see the anvil forming, pilots will actively change course, manually flying if needed, to avoid. For this flight it looks like it lost lift although it might have hit a downdraft.
The first time I ever flew was in a small 4 seater thing, we went through what was probably minor turbulence, for a big plane, but not for that, it was like been violently shaken about with people hitting the outside of the plane with sledge hammers.
That was a little bit scary, it would have been absolutely terrifying for those poor people, dropping 6000ft in 3 minutes from what I heard reported.
I had similar in ****stan on a PIA internal flight to Lahore over a mountain range. It was a Fokker propeller plane that was leaking oil on the runway as I boarded it, when it suddenly plummeted for what seemed ages I just presumed a wing had fallen off.
I drove back to Islamabad.
but the figure of 6000ft of descent (over 5 min)
Ah I wasnt aware of that. From the convo I heard it was one huge drop followed by much smaller bits of turbulence but that was passenger recollection, not the flight deck
A club mate was flying in the Caribbean last year when they hit horrendous turbulence, diverted to Miami and several passengers had broken bones.
They'd just served a meal as well...
I always have my seatbelt on when sat down, there really is no good reason to not do this. Although it was reported yesterday that this incident happened at end of night flight so lots of people up and about using toilet and breakfast being served.
As above I sit with a loose belt. This is after a nice flight back from USA with KLM on Friday 13th (a great day to get bumped up to business class). It was pretty bad, so much so a TV was rattled out of the roof box thing.
I had a bumpy one coming back from the far east many years ago. I was stuffed in a middle seat between two massive Welsh mining engineers and was cursing the lack of space until it got a bit lumpy, then I was glad to be wedged in between two half pissed bouncy castles.
It is a testament to their skill and drinking expertise that neither of them spilled a single molecule of their red wine. A fact that amused them massively.
Years ago I flew back from Oz. Turbulence was so bad that a couple of people in front of me hit their heads on the overhead panel. The woman next to me was in tears, screaming and dented the arm rests as she was gripping so hard.
Doing my own expert investigation - it does appear to all be about forecasting and data rather than any system that can actually detect turbulence.
Potentially looks like it was clear air turbulence too. Maybe another aircraft had just reported it to ATC.
This is a pretty view of all the air flows
https://www.nnvl.noaa.gov/weatherview/
I know there are pilots on here who of course will know more than my YouTube educated self 🙂
I always wear a seatbelt and listen to the emergency chat.
Like with a lot of things air travel is so common now it's treated as just one of those things.
Sounds pretty horrific though.
Maybe one of the regular pilot forumites can add something to this?
I think meal service had just finished .... I hope so because the thought of a trolley flying around the cabin is pretty frightening!
Maybe another aircraft had just reported it to ATC.
I work lower sectors (below 24,000ft) and don't get asked for ride/turbulence reports very much.
My wife, however, works upper sectors. She gets asked for ride reports all the time, usually American flag carriers. It gets so bad that the requests can clog up the RT.
From what I understand, and the pilots of the forum can correct me, is that clear air turbulence can be very isolated but very disruptive, as highlighted with this incident.
I think meal service had just finished …. I hope so because the thought of a trolley flying around the cabin is pretty frightening!
I saw some photos in one of the online reports with a lot of kettles, urns, trays and various other airline meal sundries scattered like confetti.
It's a lot of objects that can all fly around and cause damage. One of the Air Crash Investigation programmes was related to sudden massive turbulence - can't remember the details but one of the cabin crew was seriously injured by meal service items flying around.
How do they know they are going to hit massive wind shear? I can’t imagine that shows up on weather radar ?
If it's bad then the message gets passed back down the chain, either by ATC or via the air-to-air chat frequency. Clear air turbulence in an area can be forecast to a degree but identifying it in flight before hitting it is a crapshoot. You can get an inkling from your "spidey sense" but that's about it.
Hiya,
I had one flight to Japan once where the plane hit bad turbulence, and stuff went flying around the cabin. Fortunately the pilot had just turned on fasten seat belts as they must have had some forewarning as someone else mentioned. For the next hour or so the plane was getting tumbled in all directions and people were sick and generally not happy.
Ever since I've always had my belt on loosely as they advise anyway...
BR
JeZ
When I was a student we came back from a field trip and just couldn't land in Manchester due to a blizzard. My mate, a trainee pilot, was also visibly nervous. I never liked flying since. But treat it as a necessary evil.
No reports on whether someone was actually in the loo when the incident happened - wouldn't want to have been sitting next to them afterwards!
For this flight it looks like it lost lift although it might have hit a downdraft.
I think it must have hit a downdraft - if it lost lift, the plane and the people inside would fall under gravity at the same rate. For people to hit the ceiling, the plane must have been forced down faster than it would be under gravity alone.
Airlines use a number of sources to 'map' turbulence from weather radar to pilot reports, so they have some idea of what they are flying into but only a prediction.
I was on a flight where turbulence hospitalised some passengers, it felt like plane had hit something and dropped with a bang. That was a tense landing but touchdown was perfect and everyone applauded. It was the only time I've heard a pilot announcement that was anything less than totally confident 'I think we're all glad to have landed safely...' planes are incredibly robust though just the contents get shook up.
Daughter is flying back from Singapore tonight! On a bigger plane though which are more resilient to turbulence.
I used to occasionally travel across to Houston with work and liked to use the Boeing 737 BBJ flown by Privatair for KLM.
I remember waiting in the departure area when the inbound flight landed. The return crew were also waiting with me.
There was a lot of nasty weather around and I bricked it when the incoming pilot opened the window and made up and down and side to side movements with his arms to the waiting crew...a nervous flier at the best of times.
Seat belt signs on for a few hours directly after take-off. Bouncy bouncy and wishing I had not had that beer before boarding...and wondering if larger aircraft got knocked about as much...
I also remember the flights back across the Atlantic always seemed bouncier than in the other direction.
Daughter is flying back from Singapore tonight! On a bigger plane though which are more resilient to turbulence.
I've heard differing reports as to whether bigger planes are more resilient. The plane in question was a B777ER so no lightweight.
Assuming your daughter is flying on an A380 then? Hope she has an incident-free flight!
Like with a lot of things air travel is so common now it’s treated as just one of those things.
To an extent, it is. The 100,000 flights every day which pass without serious incident don't make headline news, this was exceptional. It must have been terrifying.
The advice about seatbelts is no doubt good advice, but didn't the guy who died die from a heart attack?
I had a flight in March which as we boarded the pilot told us there was not going to be proper service of drinks etc and we should all remain seated and belted - and they would prefer no-one used the loo.
It was indeed the bumpiest couple of hours I have ever had - just constant movement from a few minutes after take off to nearly back in Edinburgh. We did drop at one point, enough that the hostess who were standing ended up basically launching into a few folks laps. I was at the very back seat - and the hostess next to me was saying that they had a combination of some bumpy wind weather AND some known turbulence.
No reports on whether someone was actually in the loo when the incident happened – wouldn’t want to have been sitting next to them afterwards!
I suspect quite a few people went to the loo on the spot anyway.
The 100,000 flights every day which pass without serious incident don’t make headline news, this was exceptional. It must have been terrifying.
YoutTube stats say
2009 to 2021 30 Passengers and 116 crew seriously injured in turbulence. Apparently is mandatory reporting.
So yes 50 injured passengers and 18 crew on this plane would hint it wasnt normal.
The way I understand it is the 6000ft drop is rubbish reporting. The plane hit turbulence, there are injuries onboard, some serious. They then decend (quite quickly) by 6000 ft and divert to Bangkok. Reporters look at flight tracking app and see the decent and jump to the wrong conclusion.
There’s 3 types of turbulence.
Convective turbulence - thunderstorms, massive up/downdrafts . Detectable with weather radar and avoidable.
Clear Air Turbulence - normally associated with Jetstreams. Big changes in wind speed/direction. Predictable but not detectable. Pilots report when it’s bad. Changing levels can avoid it.
Wake Turbulence - the vortices produced by the wings of jets flying along. Predictable and mainly avoidable.
I don’t know whether it was Clear Air turbulence or they flew through a thunderstorm.
Severe turbulence is serious and whilst we have forecast maps, they just give you a general area of turbulence and if it ain't bumpy the seatbelts signs are not on. We tend to rely on Pilot reports ahead on our routes.
Have had moments where it feels like you've gone the down the worst pothole imaginable, colleagues have had +/- 30 degree roll and the autopilot kicking out.
The 6000ft drop apparently took place over 4 minutes, which is only 1250ft/min descent rate, so nothing crazy, it was probably the flight crew looking to get out the turbulence area.
Turbulence is definitely getting more common due to more energy being in the atmosphere (global warming innit).
Here's some turbulence definitions, never heard of 'extreme' turbulence being encountered in the cruise
Light turbulence is the least severe, with slight, erratic changes in attitude and/or altitude.
Moderate turbulence is similar to light turbulence, but of greater intensity - variations in speed as well as altitude and attitude may occur but the aircraft remains in control all the time.
Severe turbulence is characterised by large, abrupt changes in attitude and altitude with large variations in airspeed. There may be brief periods where effective control of the aircraft is impossible. Loose objects may move around the cabin and damage to aircraft structures may occur.
Extreme turbulence is capable of causing structural damage and resulting directly in prolonged, possibly terminal, loss of control of the aircraft.
Always wear your seatbelt!!!
The 6000ft drop apparently took place over 4 minutes
But from all accounts it lost a couple of thousand feet *very* quickly. But there does seem to be some poor reporting and differing stories as the saga unfolds. It'll be interesting to see what the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder reveal.
I encountered bad turbulence on a flight to Japan, the plane was pitching up and down, I couldn’t believe such a large object could change direction so quickly. The engines were screaming as they struggled to get proper airflow and the wings were flapping like a bird, I reckon they moved around 10 feet up and down but it may have been my perception at a very frightening time.
But from all accounts it lost a couple of thousand feet *very* quickly. But there does seem to be some poor reporting and differing stories as the saga unfolds.
Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
I’ve heard differing reports as to whether bigger planes are more resilient. The plane in question was a B777ER so no lightweight.
Assuming your daughter is flying on an A380 then? Hope she has an incident-free flight!
She was talking about twin aisles so I assumed 747 but no 777-300. I hadn't realised they were so big! Gosh better not tell mum...
and the wings were flapping like a bird, I reckon they moved around 10 feet up and down but it may have been my perception at a very frightening time.
Entirely believable, the wing flex on a Boeing 787 is 25 feet.
In a car I wear my seatbelt all the time, I’m no different in a plane.
Interestingly if you look around on a coach you'll see most people don't wear seat belts - and whilst potholes are not quite turbulence yet - the risk of sudden impact mid journey is much higher.
Interestingly if you look around on a coach you’ll see most people don’t wear seat belts
compulsory on the canadian bus I was on.
Yes I always wear seat belt on plane. I used to work in oil industry, if you don't listen to safety briefing on a transfer offshore you can get thrown off flight. Pees me right off seeing people chatting while staff are doing their briefing.
Was chatting to one of the school mum's at a kids birthday party a few months ago - she's fairly senior at Singapore Airlines here in Australia.
Topic of conversation was the fact that Turbulence is getting more severe due to climate change - apparently this is well understood in the airline industry. We were talking about it as I'd had to fly to/around Vietnam recently and encountered some of the worst turbulence I've ever experienced. We've also had a few flights recently that have made the news with people being hospitalised due to turbulence.
So yeah - my seatbelt stays on.
https://www.ksbw.com/article/passenger-describes-plane-turbulence-on-flight-to-new-zealand/60174226
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/hawaiian-airlines-turbulence-injuries-sydney-australia/index.html
And a good explanation of it here:
A good friend from Uni is a BA pilot and he's a climate sceptic 🤦♂️
Had a good smacking in an A380 coming back from Australia. Put me off for a few months of flying.
Cabin crew all locked in, pilot said nothing - but the side to side movements of the plan were terrifying.
It's funny airlines and pilots go to great lengths to say Turbulence isn't dangerous providing you're strapped in. Seems to me in extreme cases it is
Every flight I've been on has had an announcement to keep seatbelts on at all times and I've never noticed passengers not keeping them buckled, although I've never really made any effort to check. Maybe 20 years back a JAL(?) flight attendant was killed when a food cart crushed her in turbulence. When I read about that, I realized how serious turbulence can be. Being thrown to the ceiling then dropped to the floor would be bad enough, but having a bunch of food carts thrown around the cabin would make serious injuries pretty much unavoidable. When I get up to go to the toilet, I always check that there aren't any food carts nearby before I leave my seat.
My father in law is a retired BA 777 Cpt. He hates the culture that's been created by the airlines, forcing people to use carry on luggage as it'll be cheaper.
"Cabin missiles" he calls them.
Every flight I’ve been on has had an announcement to keep seatbelts on at all times and I’ve never noticed passengers not keeping them buckled, although I’ve never really made any effort to check.
Nowadays it's essential if you're flying in a modern Boeing machine and that's before we start worrying about turbulence.
A guy I used to work with was on the 2014 RAF flight where the pilot got his camera snared in the flight controls and the plane nose dived 4400'.
The onboard computers all discussed the outcome and came up with "crash" so they took control and saved all lives on board.
They struggled to get a lot of the passengers back onto aeroplanes after that & the guy I worked with hasn't flown since.
A good friend from Uni is a BA pilot and he’s a climate sceptic 🤦♂️
A surprising number of pilots are. I usually wait until they bring up their conspiracy theories and try to convince them that chemtrails are a thing.
The thunderstorms this year are earlier and more intense than I've ever seen them. Flew back across Colorado a few days ago and the supercell there was glowing like a light bulb from continuous lightning discharge.
It's very easy to say flatly "you don't fly through a thunderstorm" and that's broadly correct. On the other hand, if you have a wall of them in front of you there's really no choice but to pick your way through the least worst bits based solely on the world's most paranoid weather radar and experience.
Eg in the picture below there are four options, none of which are ideal and all of which will likely have significant turbulence associated with them. The 777 also lacks the vertical situation display that you get on an Airbus.
I still recall being on a 747 travelling to/from South Africa several years ago, and the Trolley Dolly* and her trolley suddenly levitated about 3-4 in the air right next to me (my shoulder height when seated) for several seconds, then crashed back down. The seat belt then lit up. Don't think I got my brew either.
(I've always kept my belt fastened loosely, exactly for this reason).
(*official job title as stated by a friend who is a BA pilot and once worked himself as a Trolley Dolly).
A guy I used to work with was on the 2014 RAF flight where the pilot got his camera snared in the flight controls and the plane nose dived 4400′.
This one. Full event is truly terrifying.
A guy I used to work with was on the 2014 RAF flight where the pilot got his camera snared in the flight controls and the plane nose dived 4400′.
I guy i ride with occasionally was on it as well. He was discharged eventually due to disability i think.
Edit:- Unlucky bugger, turns out it was his second aircraft accident, first one got him off the planes, second one got him out of the RAF.
I love flying when its smooth and calm, but as soon as there's any turbulance, I assume the wings are going to fall off.
This incident should convince me that planes are pretty capable of dealing with turbulence and make future flights more relaxing..... but I'm not sure it will.
Guardian and BBC have predictably shoehorned the claim into their reports of the story that the climate emergency is making air turbulence worse.
I love flying when its smooth and calm, but as soon as there’s any turbulance, I assume the wings are going to fall off.
I'm less worried about that than the fuselage falling off, that's where I'm sitting, after all.
I’m very scared of flying and it’s focused on turbulence, I didn’t help to accidentally see this headline before I left for Spain yesterday morning, then exaggerated by realising I’d be in a 737 Max 8.
To an extent, it is. The 100,000 flights every day which pass without serious incident don’t make headline news, this was exceptional.
whilst this is true, I feel like I’ve experienced moderate & seatbelts on turbulence on 3/4 of the flights I’ve been on, but that may be exaggerated becuase I’m nervous / focused on it.
I find the turbli app fairly accurate fwiw
Thought twice about the right way to say this, but Asian passengers do have a 'different' approach generally to inflight etiquette.
Having lived there for a while it is not uncommon for people to refuse to wear seatbelts and stand up at inappropriate points in the flight (including immediately upon landing whilst still decelerating on the main runway).
Now, I know that many of the injured were Brits (including sadly the RIP although he died of a heart attack rather than impact injury), and generalisations are exactly that. However, since wearing seatbelts and general adherence to the basics of passenger safety are something of a voluntary code in Asia, it is not surprising that people did not have their seatbelts on for the duration of the flight when seated as advised, regardless of the seatbelt signs. Indeed the whole approach to the value of life and personal safety are not globally the same.
I agree that whilst turbulence is scary, this incident does in a peculiar way restore my faith in the strength of the aircraft itself and the ability of even an ageing Boeing to survive some pretty serious abuse.
Aye. Japan is in Asia and they all got off recently when that big jet caught fire after landing on a small jet.
I'd posit they all got off because they were Japanese and followed the Crew's instructions and didn't mess about with 'vital' hand luggage etc...
Speculation I know but from what I've seen, it makes sense.
stand up at inappropriate points in the flight (including immediately upon landing whilst still decelerating on the main runway).
Crazy..I had a rougher then usual landing at Manchester the other day... probably not rough at all in terms of what can happen, but anyone stood up would have been sent flying/possibly broken limbs etc, as the plane jarred quite violently from left to right a few times under heavy decelleration on the tarmac..
I alway wear a seatbelt, I've seen 'rough' turbulence before! I'm only out of my seat for the toilet or to stretch my legs for a few mins.
A few days ago, the director of Bangkok's Samitivej Srinakarin Hospital read out details of the injuries among the 41 passengers and crew being treated there.
Twenty two people sustained spinal and spinal cord injuries.
Six sustained skull and brain injuries.
Thirteen have injuries to their bones, muscles and other organs.
The patients have been grouped according to their most severe injuries, but some do fall into multiple categories.
These are injuries that have the potential to impact them for the rest of their lives.
Eileen is a moron.
For not wearing her belt when the sign was off?
Yep. Tell me she isn't.
Well clearly she isn't used to dealing withturbulence but when the sign is off it's only a recommendation.
I tend not to make sweeping statements in that regard, it only makes you look even more stupid when you inevitably do something stupid yourself.
And do you think she'll heed that recommendation in the future before she gets her head down on a long haul flight? I think she will.
Every single flight I’ve ever been on announces the wearing of seat belts “in case of unexpected turbulance. It’s idiots like this which will force it to be mandatory throughout the flight, and a good thing too IMO.
I returned from my short break yesterday again on a Max 8 and got a free upgrade to the overwing exit. Despite the fact I know better -rationally- I spent a lot of time staring at the not-a-plug door. 🤷♂️
It’s idiots like this which will force it to be mandatory throughout the flight
Well, mandatory while seated perhaps, but we also need to encourage people on long haul to get up and walk in the cabin regularly rather than just be strapped in for 10 hours filling their leg arteries with clots.
Well, mandatory while seated perhaps, but we also need to encourage people on long haul to get up and walk in the cabin regularly rather than just be strapped in for 10 hours filling their leg arteries with clots.
She was sleeping.
