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Drac
Charge Your Car has the biggest network use them at £20 per annum and it means you have no real issues.
It was pointed out to you in that previous thread that you have a plug-in hybrid so it won't be an issue for you to recharge or not because you can fall back on your engine. People who own a full EV will want absolutely every charging option available to them. Just to do my routine, which is fairly repetitive, I would want Ecotricity -app. Geniepoint - RFID card, polar plus - ? as a minimum. Your single network doesn't have any coverage or hardly any coverage in Lakes, Dales and North of Bradford area. And even if it did an EV user (not plug-in hybrid) would still want every charger option available to them because they don't have your ICE option to fall back on.
Although I didn’t realise it was an extra cost option. I might not spec it if it costs more than a few hundred.
It's £5800 :p it's a bit annoying you don't get the self-parking either without it as that would come in handy occasionally but certainly not worth spending that much for. Watching YouTube clips of UK drivers with autopilot on makes me nervous let alone actually using it myself. I think it would end up more stressful (having to constantly be alert to it drifting wide/about to clip a verge etc.) than just steering yourself.
Roll on in 10-20 years time though when you can get drunk in the pub, summon your car and have it take you home whilst you snooze in the back.
As pointed out I still use chargers and agree it doesn’t cover everywhere but it really isn’t a big issue requiring billions of apps and cards but rather just a few. However, that seems to something that is also coming to an end.
Looking at the Lakes it’s pretty disappointing coverage overall by any network given it’s an area you’d hope would want to keep air pollution to a minimum.
The big big difference is you'll never experience charging anxiety until you own a full EV.
TBH you’re looking at a dynamic shift like moving from combustion powered cars to EVs there’s not much point trying to argue it’s all the same really, it’s not
What's a "dynamic shift"? How will I know when I'm looking at one?
Granted which I may find out next year as I’ll be very likely going full EV but I do find it frustrating when you go to areas with large populations or big tourists areas and they have very few or no charge points. It’s not perfect but there is a very big push to correct this but of course it takes time and investment. Seems our council may be pretty good and keep to one supplier and install them in sensible areas.
What’s a “dynamic shift”?
It's a £3280 factory fit option but comes as standard with the Buzzword Awesomeness pack
no servicing
Lolwut? Just because it has a different method of propulsion that doesn't mean it doesn't need servicing. Ancillary and bodywork checks need done and electric motors and their batteries aren't exactly fit and forget. But people will come to realise this, eventually.
What’s a “dynamic shift”? How will I know when I’m looking at one?
It's probably just something I made up or heard at a conference, but in this instance. Moving from a Petrol car to a Diesel is a shift, you need to remember to use the black pump, drive it slightly differently, but fundamentally it's the same as you had before. A Dynamic Shift changes are greater and more pronounced.
In this case, you'd know when you're looking at a ever depleting battery meter and very few places to fix that.
You could of course go for a fundamental shift, and get the bus.
I think "paradigm shift" maybe the overused marketing phrase you are looking for 🙂
electric motors and their batteries aren’t exactly fit and forget.
I'm interested to hear what needs servicing in an electric drivetrain. I mean regular servicing, like changing oil in an IC. Of course the batteries will eventually deteriorate but the car will let you know when this is happening, you don't need to take it to be serviced for that.
Ok so my Prius is now old but there are no EV specific service points.
Brush replacement?😉
Just because it has a different method of propulsion that doesn’t mean it doesn’t need servicing. Ancillary and bodywork checks need done and electric motors and their batteries aren’t exactly fit and forget. But people will come to realise this, eventually.
The Model 3 needs minimal servicing, the only vaguely regular service required is the air con but that's not annual, other than that it's just brake fluid (unless you're counting tyres, which I wouldn't personally). The warranty for the battery & motors is 8 years (or 100k+ miles). So unless there's a fault (not unheard of in Tesla's but they're improving quickly and the Model 3 is the most reliable of their models) then you really don't need to do anything but replace the tyres when they wear and sort the air con if it starts smelling or not cooling properly - far less maintenance than an ICE.
Brush replacement?😉
And top up the cells with water?
Very little to service on an EV, motors are brush-less, don't need oil changes, don't have cam belts, don't have fan belts, don't have fuel filters. Some have radiators / liquid cooled batteries, but probably completely sealed system.
With regen breaking pads / discs last a lot longer as well.
Pollen filter still needs changing though....
Brush replacement
I bet he never cleans it anyway.
Does anyone else on here have a model 3.
I have had the performance version since early August.
The car is incredible - I don't have much to compare it to though as I haven't owned other nice cars. (Used to have a 525D BMW touring which was good but nothing compared to this). Very easy to drive, great in traffic but also a lot of fun on the open road. Love the minimalist interior, screen gives me all I need and is easy to use. Stereo is great, nippy and nimble. I could go on ...
I've only used a super charger once and that was painless. Other than that I just charge at home. Waiting for a charger to be installed at home but currently charge at 10 miles per hour off a 3 pin which is currently fine for my requirements.
Regular service items for all cars tend to be brake fluid, brake pads, power steering fluid, tyres, plus check wheel bearings and steering and suspension joints etc. You're still going to have to take an EV back for servicing once or twice a year.
Tesla maintenance is every 2 years : https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/car-maintenance
Tesla recommends checking your tires every 10,000-12,000 miles for rotating, balancing and aligning needs.
Tesla recommends cleaning and lubricating all brake calipers every 12 months or 12,500 mi for cars in cold weather regions.
Asking this as an EV fan (but unfortunately someone at the bangernomics end of the scale) - what happens if you run out of power due to not being able to charge for whatever reason will a breakdown service tow/take you to the nearest charger? Do the AA/RAC/Green flag have any dedicated EV services?
This is not an EV, but it does illustrate the potential problems that reliance on technology can cause.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/zipcar-into-the-wilderness/597217/
In an area without cellphone reception, I was unable to open the car.
@hols2 so tires (which again I don't class as a service item) and a bit of caliper lubrication that's not required in the UK (so not relevant to most on here). Granted annual ICE servicing is mostly just oil & filter change, major services have stuff like gearbox fluid and plugs though which aren't required on a Tesla Model 3. It also doesn't invalidate the battery & drive motor warranty if you don't follow the service recommendations.
As far as the user experience goes, you have to assume you will be without your car for a day while it's being serviced. It doesn't matter to the customer what they do during servicing, just that you can't use it.
The cost of servicing needs to be looked at as part of the long-term cost of ownership. If you save 10k on servicing costs over the lifetime of the vehicle, but the vehicle costs 20k more, then you are 10k short overall. Same goes for fuel costs. If you average about 500 miles per year like I do (seriously), the sums work out differently to someone who does 50 000 miles per year.
what happens if you run out of power due to not being able to charge for whatever reason will a breakdown service tow/take you to the nearest charger?
AFAIK Tesla service allow you to do this once and will tow you to a charger. However if the 12Volt battery goes as well then it's a bit more serious. I'm not sure how often people do run out of juice but can't imagine it's that frequent.
As far as the user experience goes, you have to assume you will be without your car for a day while it’s being serviced
I'm not sure they still exist but I believe Tesla, or at least used to, have a 'ranger' service where they come out to you to do small service items.
If you average about 500 miles per year like I do (seriously),
Then you don't need a car.
Then you don’t need a car.
Most people don't need a car, but find that owning one is convenient.
Agreed a lot of people don't but at 500 miles per year then there is certainly no need.
I needed it for my previous job. Now that I have it, might as well keep it in case I need it in the future. However, a lot of people buy cars for the convenience even though they don't really need them. They're allowed to do that, there's no requirement to obtain a certificate demonstrating the need for a car before you're allowed to buy one.
Jesus dude chill.
As we are at the start of the EV revolution i don't think you can compare the current ICE infrastructure to the current EV infrastructure. I'm interested in one as the wife has a regular 80 mile commute. Therefore 99% of journeys will be within one day and charging at night. Yes some may have some extreme needs so maybe an EV isn't suited for you, yet. Trucks / pickups are on the horizon Click here.
For longer journeys, cant you just plan where you will stop and look for what charging stations are there beforehand and load the appropriate apps. Have a backup in case of faults / squatters. Things will / are improving every month.
Someone mentioned insurance was difficult to get. I contacted Admiral for a quote and while Tesla model 3 wasn't on their database yet, the agent contacted the underwriters and got back to me with 4 hours with a quote.
Regarding servicing, i spoke to the Tesla agent and they recommend coming in every 2 years.
Personally i think we are just at the Model T era of EV production and it wont take 100 years to get to the current ICE evolution stage.
No it wont take 100 years. EV's consist of technologies that are already mature. Electric motors...mature technology. Batteries...mature technology. Its the integration into a new and different product so the learning curve is massively shortened. Most of the complaints people are making on here are not around the cars but the charging infrastructure. that will be quick and easy to fix as soon as things get moving then its no problem.
The biggest shock will come when people in their masses start moving over to EV...the government is not going to stand for the loss of hundreds of billions of tax revenues from fuel, oil, servicing items and all the other tax earnings the government receives from car ownership and will be looking to recoup it somehow...loading electric bills with more tax or something like that. Ultimately EV's will be just as expensive to own and run as ICE cars are today, but until then the early adoptors can enjoy the benefits.
Batteries…mature technology.
No way. It's the mobile phone that has driven improvements in battery tech and there's a long way to go yet. In weight in capacity and in chemistry. manufacturers are using a fraction of the heavy metals an getting more capacity even compared to a couple of years ago. The Leaf and Zoé have both gone from 23kWh to over 50 in seven years.
In ICE terms batteries have just gone from flat head to OHV with pushrods.
Asking this as an EV fan (but unfortunately someone at the bangernomics end of the scale) – what happens if you run out of power due to not being able to charge for whatever reason will a breakdown service tow/take you to the nearest charger? Do the AA/RAC/Green flag have any dedicated EV services?
Well according to 'the internet' with the Model S at least, it's a bit worse than that, if it goes flat, as in completely flat then it's effectively bricked and plugging it back in won't fix it, it has to go back to Tesla to be fixed.
I really doubt it's much of an issue here, but in sunnier climates when you're not using it, it will use a small amount of charge to maintain the temps of some of the electronics that make it work. I don't know how accurate that is, it might be the case that if it can't maintain temp then some bits will be damaged which could cause it to brick and a myth has sprung from that.
I guess if it's true, don't park it up on a low charge in the middle of summer and go off on hols for 2 weeks.
If range is the big issue, the new Kia estate EV is getting 280 miles in actual reviews and it will be quite a bit cheaper than the Model s.
I’ve just changed vehicles and was very keen indeed to go full EV but he lack of options for charging at home put me off. I don’t have a driveway or any off road parking and live on a busy main road.
I tried contacting Sheffield council to see if they would consider installing a community charge point (I don’t mind walking a bit from where I’d park it) especially as grants for local authorities for installing infrastructure is underused. No reply. Tried again. No reply. Sheffield only has to my knowledge 4 true public charging points in the town centre. There are others in shops, paid for car parks, hotels and the like but those wouldn’t work on a typical day for me.
So tried contacting a few home EV charge point installation companies and explained my situation. One just blankly told me they wouldn’t install one. Another said they same and were only slightly more helpful but still said no. Last one no reply. So only remaining option as far as I could work out was to install an outdoor mains plug on the front of my house and trail the charging cable across the pavement and run the risk of getting claims for pedestrians tripping on it.
After must frustration, I ended up getting a new ICE.
Interesting to see that a sizeable majority doesn't consider wear and tear inspections to be part of a service. I presume you are the ones who are shocked come MOT time when it turns out you've been driving about with leaky shocks, broken springs, torn CV boots and whatever else because you "service" it at home. Then consider that the average person has as much mechanical sympathy as a turnip. All those things should be getting inspected when it's up on ramps, that's why it still needs regular servicing.
As for motors, believe the hype if you like but controllers, windings, bearings and such should all be inspected as part of any sensible preventative maintenance schedule. 2 yearly may well be a sensible interval for the motors but I guarantee your 8 year warranty will cover wear and tear parts only if subjected to regular inspection. How many of us have had a hard drive motor or controller fail on us? How is that in any way different (in principle of operation) to these brushless motors?
Interesting to see that a sizeable majority doesn’t consider wear and tear inspections to be part of a service.
Not really a majority just a few who can't see it's still a service
The EV revolution is happening, not with cars though, but with bicycles.
I see a lot more of the now, not the 4k MTB's, but people just using them to get around or go shopping.
I guarantee your 8 year warranty will cover wear and tear parts only if subjected to regular inspection.
You'd be wrong. Also Tesla service centres do not service the drive motors or batteries, if there's a fault they are replaced.
@tuboflard I reckon you will have to wait for autonomous vehicles that can take themselves off to be charged up overnight somewhere local and then come back fully charged in the morning.
Also Tesla service centres do not service the drive motors or batteries, if there’s a fault they are replaced.
So this so-called environmental revolution in vehicles has all the green connotations of the battery manufacture AND disposal parts being thrown into a landfill site?
They recycle them.
And how do they find faults? Presumably they don't wait until actual failure happens or would I be wrong about that too. Maybe I need to lower my expectations from best practice to cheapest practice.
Kryten, presumably motors will be swapped with the old one sent for refurb like you would an alternator.
Do you have evidence of that? Where? I mean, if they are shipped into a container back to China, fixed, sent to the factory etc thats also and eco negative. Why aren't they fixed locally avoiding all that and also boosting the local mechanical workforce, an ICE based industry that'll need to move with the times?
If you want to promote Tesla as properly eco you need to do your research on everything, not just fuel and performance.
Well yes there is evidence as it's widely known.
It would be great in future if they were local repairs and recycling I'm sure there will in time once EV become the norm.
https://electrek.co/2019/04/16/tesla-battery-recycling-system/
I don't know about Tesla but Renault change duff cells and continue to use the battery in cars as long as it's over 75% capacity. At less than 75% it goes into their power storage plant that provides power to the grid at peak demand and charges at low demand. When they're completely dead they get recycled at a new pilot plant which is very labour intensive at present but will be scaled up when enough dead batteries are available.
As above, we have a few demonstration projects in the company where we have used 2nd life EV batteries in containers to provided embedded generation and grid balancing services in commercial buildings.
If you want to promote Tesla as properly eco you need to do your research on everything, not just fuel and performance.
Conversely if you want to piss on someone's chips you need to provide more than hypothetical straw man piss.
I'm not sure anyone's describing Tesla as "properly eco" anyhow. Battery manufacturing has a significant environmental impact, Tesla are sort of trying to address this but things like reducing the cobalt content are more linked to reducing battery cost than the environmental impact. Reusing the car batteries (once they don't hold sufficient charge to be viable in a car) in powerwalls etc. is a good move though.
Do you have evidence of that?
Well, no but given its cheaper than replacing for new every time I'd say it's a good certainty. As Drac says it's what normally happens.
Used battery packs and motors are also finding their way to the modification crowd like EV West for example.
Conversely if you want to piss on someone’s chips you need to provide more than hypothetical straw man piss.
Agreed, I just don’t have time right now #slighltyskewededinburhgdefence
Just consider that in its lifetime the BMW will get through 8-10 tonnes of fuel which will just be burned and converted into CO2 and organic pollutants which include known carcinogens.
On the other hand the lithium battery will be recycled with 80% lithium recovery, heavy meatal recovery and the the lithium residue is harmless enough to be incorporated into building blocks.
If you wish to compare the oil industry and lithium extaction consider this:
A new study on total CO2 emissions, for electric vs petrol/diesel. https://www.drax.com/energy-policy/how-clean-is-my-electric-car/
Electric is less than half the CO2 over the lifetime, including battery production. Small cars are much less emissions, as smaller batteries etc. The likes of Tesla are more (but still less than the equivalent petrol car).
And as the grid gets more renewables etc, emissions will decrease further.
Good reading that CraigW, so in summary:
Measured purely on Co2, EV is better than ICE.
The average EV has the equivalent output of a 3 x round the world flight, takes 3-9 years to be Co2 neutral depending on its size, and for the most powerful ones may never be CO2 neutral in its lifetime. This may improve.
Cows are still by far the main contributor of CO2 emissions in the world.
The average EV has the equivalent output of a 3 x round the world flight, takes 3-9 years to be Co2 neutral depending on its size, and for the most powerful ones may never be CO2 neutral in its lifetime. This may improve.
No car, even EVs are ever carbon neutral. I think you've misunderstood. I think you're confusing the time it takes for an EV to produce less CO2 than an ICE which depends on where you live and the energy mix. 3-9 years looks like Frauhofer institute figures which are based on the filthy German energy mix with its brown coal power stations.
Cows are still by far the main contributor of CO2 emissions in the world.
Cows?? The actual cows themselves or what??
It's only co2 from fossil fuels that we need to be concerned about remember.
Did you mean methane?
Cows?? The actual cows themselves or what??
Most cows drive vintage V12 Jaguars. Many have private jets. They just don't care about the planet.
This is why I don't feel at all bad about killing and eating the selfish arseholes.
I think you’ve misunderstood.
He doesn't he's trying to get a bite it's what Kryton does.
So here's a question regarding sustainability.
Electric motors are pretty simple things, right? Couple of bearings and some wire. The batteries will need fixing or replacing eventually of course. Given that we already have the technology to make extremely long lasting body shells cheaply (see Trabants), it should be possible to endlessly fix EVs for less cost than buying new ones. Manufacturer refurbished if you like, like laptops. You could even upgrade the parts to modernise them when tech changes, like they do with aeroplanes.
I'm sure the market wouldn't like this idea, but it's something for progressively minded governments to think about. Mandate that every new car has to meet modular standards. Even if you crash your rust-proof body you could get another body and move all the stuff across. Given that the battery is by far the highest cost item it might be worth it.
given most cars in the scrapyard have functioning drivetrains, I don't think it'll make any difference - they get written off because of some small fault that, due to high labour costs, is more than the £500 value of a 15 year old car.
Even if you crash your rust-proof body you could get another body and move all the stuff across.
Cars are designed to be cheap to assemble in a factory, in a specific order. Sub-assemblies can be assemble off the main production line, then welded together. This allows access to fasteners, etc. Trying to remove things like dash assemblies, wiring looms, etc between cars is much, much more labour intensive, hence very expensive.
People have been on about this kind of thing for many decades. Try driving a 25 year old car, even a very well maintained one, and see how it compares to a modern one. Old cars are bloody awful, that's the main reason people upgrade.
Mandate that every new car has to meet modular standards. Even if you crash your rust-proof body you could get another body and move all the stuff across
The Tesla Model Y is going to be interesting (if they get the assembly working as per filed patents), the body is basically cast as a single piece. People have already questioned how this is going fit in with crash damage repairs but it's a pretty neat idea (along with them getting rid of most of the wiring). Should all help the build costs at least, I doubt it will allow for a quick entire body swap (for the first gen anyway).
the body is basically cast as a single piece
I think you mean "pressed", not "cast". Assembly and quality control were issues that Tesla really struggled with. Established car manufacturers have decades of experience in producing car bodies, they're better at it than Tesla. Aluminium is a more difficult material to work with than steel, so cost considerations limit its use to luxury cars like Teslas, Jags, etc.
I think you mean “pressed”, not “cast”
I was actually thinking that myself but everywhere seems to refer to it as a casting machine, I guess die casting is sort of pressing (I'm not an engineer :p )?
https://electrek.co/2019/07/23/tesla-giant-machine-produce-model-y-body-one-piece/
Quite liking the new Porsche, but bloody hell it's heavy! Quite interested to hear what the "part Formula E, part space craft" motor noise they pipe into the cabin sounds like in reality.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=205&t=1829337
No, they are talking about casting, but of the frame, not the entire body. What they are saying is that they currently cast multiple pieces and then need to weld them together, but they believe they can cast a larger, more complex frame.
Tesla is working on several significant manufacturing improvements for the Model Y production program and it includes building a giant new casting machine to produce a big part of the Model Y frame in one single piece.
Their illustration is a bit misleading because it shows a complete car, with doors, door handles, wheels, etc. fitted. Clearly they cannot cast the doors, wheels, etc as part of a single assembly. From that site, it's impossible to say how much of the body will actually be a single component, but they definitely are not intending to cast an entire car body as one piece.
The scrapping of conventional cars is not a problem. They mostly made of iron which is very easily and cheaply recycled and fed back into the new production system so saves a huge amount of CO2 invested in minimum and producing products from virgin material. The problem comes when you start introducing awkward materials like plastics and composite materials.
Cars are becoming simpler to produce anyway. Look at Tesla's...they all effectively the same in terms of hardware. When you spec the car up from new and pay for options they're just 'turned on' in the software...meaning as the car gets a bit older you can turn on new and other new features and options later in life. Also new features are introduced via software so the cars can be kept upto date and modernised after they've been built so removes a lot of the reasons why people get rid of cars to buy new ones.
But as soon as people get rid of this ridiculous notion of car ownership and think more about cars as things you pay for access to then that will release a lot of opportunities. Why just have access to one car...one day you might need a big family car, the next day you might only need a small super efficient car to get you to and from work, the next day you might be in the mood for a bit of fun and want something a bit sportier. You can have all this if we think differently about how we use and pay for access to cars rather than waste time, money and resources owning cars.
And good luck getting that cast aluminium Tesla repaired if you have a minor accident. That's going to be an unrepairable car.
But as soon as people get rid of this ridiculous notion of car ownership and think more about cars as things you pay for access to then that will release a lot of opportunities. Why just have access to one car…one day you might need a big family car, the next day you might only need a small super efficient car to get you to and from work, the next day you might be in the mood for a bit of fun and want something a bit sportier. You can have all this if we think differently about how we use and pay for access to cars rather than waste time, money and resources owning cars
Probably needs autonomous driving to make that work well though otherwise there would be a significant cost for delivering/collecting/storing cars - they can't even get bike share schemes to work well let alone car share schemes as you describe. But yes eventually it will make a lot of sense for most people not to own a car.
Whilst cars in scrap yards might have "functioning" powertrain, those powertrains are worn!
People always say "EVs are rubbish because the battery wears out" and yet compeletly fail to realise that their ICE is much,much worse, with litterally thousands of complex moving parts that wear out every single time you use it. A ICE with 150,000 miles on the car, even when "working" is worthless simply because of the risk that someting will fail catastrophically and write the car off. And for most people, estimating the health of a second hand car is impossible. Sure you start it up, give it a rev, look at the exhaust for any smoke, maybe even lift the bonnet and have a look, but really, you're just guessing. You could have a car that sounds and looks perfect, and yet breaks down on the way back from the seller!
With an EV, the mechanical simplicity means it is much more robust, there are many many less things to wear out, the big bits are actually really easy to replace (compare the complexity, difficulty and time required to say change a set of pistons in an engine to changing a battery cell in a battery....).
But the biggest advantage for an EV is that the bit that does wear out, the battery is both pretty predictable, and cruically, is monitored in real time. You can go look at a second hand EV, and with a few presses of buttons on the dash, it will tell you precisely how worn the battery actually is!
Go look at two 100,000 mile ICE vehicles and you're left at best estimating which might be the bless wornout car. Go look at two 100,000 mile EVs and you can see which one IS the less worn out car!
Cars are designed to be cheap to assemble in a factory, in a specific order.
I know, this could be changed. It would take a government with teeth though not this modern laissez-faire stuff that is allowing our planet to be destroyed so people can enjoy slightly increased comfort and refinement and a better steering feel.
And good luck getting that cast aluminium Tesla repaired if you have a minor accident. That’s going to be an unrepairable car.
Just like most modern cars. Take a look at the write off categories and write offs on the market. If it needs putting on a jig because the shell is damaged it's a write off whether the shell is made in one piece or several. Specialists will still buy and repair them as now, they'll devise repair methods to get them leagally back on the road..
People who commute regularly find it convenient to have their own car. The most obvious thing is that a very large proportion of cars get used at the same time every morning and evening, so regular commuters will pretty much still need one car each anyway. On top of that, with your own personal car you can leave stuff in there instead of having to clean it out completely every time you use it, you don't need to worry about someone else leaving it dirty and full of rubbish (or vomit, etc), you don't need to check that everything is in order before using it, and so on. It is a nice idea, but I think you'll find that most people who currently own a car will still want their own car instead of sharing one.
Maxtorque is right as usual. This is likely to be a bigger change to our automotive industry long term than anything else EV related I think.
And for most people, estimating the health of a second hand car is impossible.
Ha! Kicking the tyres is tells you need to know.
He doesn’t he’s trying to get a bite it’s what Kryton does.
Thats the second time Drac, would you like me to write in a complaint for deformation of character? Have you read the other 99% of my 2019 posts before you came to that judgement? I don't, and I've made significant effort in here to tone down anything that can be a argument, for my own benefit mostly. I read it fast during breakfast so maybe yes, I have misunderstood - I'll read it again tonight.
The cows quips was a comedy line, thats all.
. Duplicate.