[Closed] Terror (in inverted commas) attack in London

doesn't appear, in my eyes, to be a terrorist, more mental health

Is there necessarily a clear distinction between the two?

Depends on the persons skin colour and ethnic race.

Not white english = terrorist
White english = mental health

MrsFry

GP, WM.

Same as in the states mass shooting etc. Is a gunman Paris was terrorists. We seem to forget who we used to call terrorists.

[url= http://news.sky.com/story/1600631/tube-station-stabbing-a-terrorist-incident ]as of 06:57 today[/url]

Amazing how many people don't understand the words 'get back' 🙄

Looked like a man with a knife to me.

Between this, the Sydney siege and the San Bernardino murders, it seems like these are people who were likely to snap and act like arseholes anyway (all three crimes were not uncommon in their respective societies) but have decided to justify their arseholishness with terrorist ideology...as opposed to other arseholes that spend time learning how to be murderous arseholes and prolly wouldn't have murdered without the ideology.

Another stabbing in Leytonstone, probably wouldn't even make the local papers if he hadn't shouted 'Syria'

It's amazing that you can judge someone has mental health problems from watching that.

As per above, its not a terrorist incident if he doesn't shout "this is for bombing Syria", but he did. Stabbing people as a result of political views is by its very definition a terrorist incident. Trying to achieve political aims / exoress a view via violence. FWIW I'd include throwing firecrackers at police horses the same way.

Terrorists have a recognised cause, nutters generally don't.

FWIW I'd include throwing firecrackers at police horses the same way

@ 1:25 in thatvideo - wtf is the woman doing running at the officers like that? She could have easily been snotted for her actions.

There have been a spate of stabbings and shootings by teenagers recently, take a look at recent news stories. I does seem like it's gathering momentum.

aye, or sending police horses to attack citizens

Strangely in my 52 years I've never been attacked by a police horse. I have been far too close to terrorist incidents though as have friends and colleagues including one who was on the Lockerbie Pan Am flight

@ 1:25 in thatvideo - wtf is the woman doing running at the officers like that? She could have easily been snotted for her actions.

[img] [/img]

Strangely in my 52 years I've never been attacked by a police horse

Maybe those things have never happened to anyone

@scaredy - google up the last anonymous/guido fawkes demonstration in London, the one a month ago. Police horses and policeman injured as a result of exactly that

@Jam - google up Orgreave

There's a right wing Facebook thing going round at the minute berating Corbyn for saying "This is the price you pay for going to war" about the beheading of the Manchester taxi driver. A lot of jambalayas are frothing at the mouth and saying he has no right to say that, but surely he's correct and the same logic applies here? If you poke an sleeping bear it will attack you. If you leave it alone it probably won't.

Bombing in Syria has put us in more danger than we were ever in before.

I actually feel safer now.
Last year I felt that Isis were not being taken seriously enough and were taking ground at an alarming rate.

And while I understand people may feel we face a greater threat now we are bombing them, i believe that may be true in the short term but that threat would be nothing compared to the threat they would pose if the were allowed to go on unchallenged.

jambalaya - Member
@scaredy - google up the last anonymous/guido fawkes demonstration in London, the one a month ago. Police horses and policeman injured as a result of exactly that

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST
scaredypants - Member
@Jam - google up Orgreave

if the were allowed to go on unchallenged.

Who was suggesting that then?

Crazy people will use any justification for their actions, especially issues that are in the public eye at the time.

If this issue with Syria and ISIS wasn't going on at the moment, he'd probably be blaming the lyrics on the new Adele album for telling him to go and kill people.

Who was suggesting that then?

Lots of people here last year were saying leave them to it.

Going unchallenged apart from the forces of Assad, Jordan, France, Australia, Canada, Iran, Russia, the Kurds and several other nations? But yes our bombs will make all the difference.

No-one said 'leave them to it'. They said that bombing is a knee jerk response that's likely to be ineffective, kill countless civilians, and possibly increase support for ISIS.

But it's ok, it was only lefty appeasers that were saying that, like this fella:

http://www.thenational.scot/news/nato-general-sir-richard-shirreff-warns-air-strikes-on-syria-are-useless.10604

Thank god we ignored them.

Grim I am talking over a year ago when they was not being bombed left right and center and plenty of people were saying leave them to it.

Lots of people here last year were saying leave them to it.

Well it wasn't until last year that the Tory Home Secretary decided that ISIS was a terrorist organisation - is that what you mean?

And btw you do realise that there are other options with regards to challenging ISIS apart from the UK bombing targets a few thousand miles away?

In the last year, according to our government, as the result of UK military operations in Iraq an estimated 330 ISIS fighters have been killed, and knowing the nature of propaganda that's probably an exaggeration.

In the same period ISIS strength grew to probably twice its strength a year ago. The 330 ISIS killed by UK air strikes have been replaced by many thousands more.

How many decades to you expect it will take to remove the threat of a terrorist attack, including a knife-wielding nutter, from major UK cities?

Drac, educated guess, he's known to mh services. Give it a day or two. You'll see.

I'm confused - is this a terror attack that the government are downplaying the seriousness of because it's an inevitable consequence of our bombing Syria?

Or is it an unrelated incident that the government are playing up into a terror attack to justify our bombing in Syria?

Sorry, you'll have to forgive me, I'm not sure which page of the conspiracy theories manual we are on today?

As far as I'm aware ninfan the government hasn't made any comment with regards to this incident. So you are indeed confused or simply yet again talking gibberish. HTH.

How many members are die hard fighters who have travelled to the region to join them, how many joined as they felt they had to ether because through threat or simply to survive due to monetary gain as apparently there fighters draw a wage.

I would not only target the fighters but would concentrate more on there equipment, military and industrial to disable there military capability and ability to generate income and stop them from resupplying them.

Small arms would be an issue as Kalashnikovs can be easily knocked up in a small workshop but tanks and more significantly advanced equipment should be harder to come by and easier to cut off.

Back to my first point with regard to the fighters how many would fight to the last if certain defeat was looming and how many would desert given the opportunity to or had the money dried up.

And yes I do feel safer now they have been recognised to be a serious threat and now know they will not be allowed achieve there ultimate goals whatever it eventually takes.

Also there was an expert (what made him an expert I don't know) on the radio saying that due to the ease of being able to get your hands on guns in America to expect more lone wolf/nutter/terrorist gun attacks there and due to it being much harder for people without direct contact to terrorist organisations or organised crime here to get firearms to expect more lone wolf/nutter/ terrorist knife attacks here.

Quite applicable here...

[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5806/23534939256_900260abb7_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5806/23534939256_900260abb7_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/BRGHuL ]Shootings[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

Quite applicable here...

How so ?

Isn't the fact that the guy said "this is for Syria" the reason he is being labelled a terrorist.

Rather than guesswork based on his religion ?

Drac,[s]educated[/s] random judgemental guess, he's known to mh services.

Isn't the fact that the guy said "this is for Syria" the reason he is being labelled a terrorist.

"This is for Syria" sounds more like the random ramblings of someone with mental health issues than evidence of a planned and executed terrorist outrage.

If this was an ISIS terrorist strike on the UK then their standards appear to have dropped significantly.

Perhaps the two UK air strikes on ISIS targets in Syria have degraded their capabilities far more than one might have been hoped?

If this was an ISIS terrorist strike on the UK then their standards appear to have dropped significantly.

I made no comment on his effectiveness, or his mental health status.

Simply saying that guessing his motives based on his religion wasn't a factor in the news reporting, as was claimed at the top of the page.

He stated his motives, feel free to disagree with him though.

Chapeau for the "you ain't no Muslim" comment made at the time and subsequent hashtag

@footflaps actually the gun lobby have the same conclusion in both scenarios, which is "we need to be armed"

EDIT motives: the stabber has no idea whether those 3 people he stabbed where for or against the airstikes in Syria or indeed thise whuch have been going on in Iraq for months. He didn't know and he didn't care. This is absolutely consistent with other terrorist attacks

He stated his motives, feel free to disagree with him though.

What a stupid comment.

The Yorkshire Ripper claimed that God told him to kill. Everyone knows that the Yorkshire Ripper was mentally ill, no one describes the Ripper's crimes as religiously motivated, whatever he says.

Boring drac. Fiddling with comments to make yourself appear superior. Worked much in mental health and forensics? I guess not. Judgemental old me eh.

Ripper was declared sane at the trial though, only diagnosed later...

Ernie, you are talking pish

I'm pretty sure that anyone that thinks mowing folks down in the name of allah so can they can spend eternity with a 1000 virgins is probably mentally ill in some way.

Boring drac. Fiddling with comments to make yourself appear superior. Worked much in mental health and forensics? I guess not. Judgemental old me eh.

I'm not trying to appear superior. No, I haven't but my family all work or worked in mental health, my Dad was a senior lecturer in mental health and I've worked in health care for over 26 years. So I've learnt not to label someone as having mental health issue just because they do something that's not normal.

The Yorkshire Ripper claimed that God told him to kill. Everyone knows that the Yorkshire Ripper was mentally ill, no one describes the Ripper's crimes as religiously motivated, whatever he says.

Obvs If someone believes to have heard God personally giving them instructions, wether to kill or otherwise I would belive them to be suffering some sort of mental illness wether they were religious or not. There is a difference between being religious and hearing voices.

 

Chapeau for the "you ain't no Muslim" comment made at the time and subsequent hashtag

I thought the "you ain't no Muslim Bruv" was brilliant and it brought a smile to my face.
I don't know wether the person who said it was Muslim or not to me it does not matter.
What mattered was it was not the voice of some one who was terrorised but of someone who was indignant to this mans action. And if terror was his motive he had failed.

tpbiker - Member

Ernie, you are talking pish

I'm pretty sure that anyone that thinks mowing folks down in the name of allah so can they can spend eternity with a 1000 virgins is probably mentally ill in some way.

Erm, if you actually bothered to read what I say before commenting you would realise that is very similar to what I've said.

My first post and the second one on this thread :

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/terror-in-inverted-commas-attack-in-london#post-7353861

"This is for Syria" sounds more like the random ramblings of someone with mental health issues than evidence of a planned and executed terrorist outrage.

Yep, I'd wager he's just unhinged and latched onto the whole ISIS thing as a direction rather than being a devoted ISIS terrorist (in which case he's the worst one yet in terms of effectiveness). Problem is, there is so much politics at play (e.g. Police funding), that most bodies involved have a vested interest in portraying him an a hardcore ISIS terrorist, whether he is or not.

What a stupid comment.

Well with such a compelling and exhaustive argument as that, how can I possibly disagree. 🙄

Did he not state his motives ?

Was it edited into the footage afterwards maybe ?

"Feel free to disagree with him" is a stupid comment, if you can't figure that out I can't really help you.

hhmmm ... just watched the clip where the assailant/terrorist/nutter whateverrrrr was standing shouting his action was meant for Syria etc ...

I mean with his back turn and with his heighten excitement shouting around if there was no police arrival what would you do?

I ain't debating what's in his head nor what influenced him btw.

What would you do? Just want to know ... like.

😛

I would try and stay at a safe distance and talk him down. Then if he went for me I would try to avoid him if I could (run away) but if unavoidable, I did judo as a kid so would hope I could defend my self.

If he attacked others I would hope I would try to help. I would probably be looking around for a fire extinguisher or anything I could use as a weapon.

Feel free to disagree with him" is a stupid comment, if you can't figure that out I can't really help you.

He said he was doing it "for Syria"

You seemed to disagree with that and said it was "random ramblings" rather than it being related to what he actually said was about.

I said

"...guessing his motives based on his religion wasn't a factor in the news reporting, as was claimed at the top of the page.
He stated his motives, feel free to disagree with him though."

If you can't explain why you have an issue with that, then I can't be bothered to care.

I heard he was angry when he bust his iPhone. "This is for Siri! Ah!"

If you can't explain why you have an issue with that

I don't have an issue with anything. If you want to believe what an alleged perpetrator of a violent crime claims was his motive, or that those with mental health issues are guaranteed to understand their own thought processes, then that's up to you.

Personally I don't think violent criminals and those with serious mental health issues can be fully trusted to always tell the truth.

If I was hauled before the courts for the armed robbery of a post office and I claimed that my motive was purely to help my sick elderly mother with her bills would you automatically assume that I was telling the truth?

I have of course no idea what this individual's motives were, but it would appear to me on the surface that this incident sounds more like the work of a nutter than a calculating terrorist. You might have a different opinion.

chip - Member

I would try and stay at a safe distance and talk him down. Then if he went for me I would try to avoid him if I could (run away) but if unavoidable, I did judo as a kid so would hope I could defend my self.

If he attacked others I would hope I would try to help. I would probably be looking around for a fire extinguisher or anything I could use as a weapon.

It's tricky isn't it considering that we are not programmed to react so suddenly with the unexpected.

I guess my only defend, if push comes to shove, would be my Fisher space pen, my courier bag and my belt but not sure how effective would these items be to protect myself ... hmmm ... something to think about I guess. 😮

He said he was doing it "for Syria

I did judo as a kid so hope i could defend myself

I'd be steering well clear

The bloke was a raving fruitcake.. Nothing more

yunki - Member

I did judo as a kid so hope i could defend myself

LOL... You **** twit

I'd be steering well clear

What if there is no place for you to steer clear or if you are cornered?

😯

Then it's berserker O'clock surely?

yunki - Member
Then it's berserker O'clock surely?

How exactly? Shout? Looks very angry?

Bear in mind the assailant has a big knife moving in your direction with stabbing motion (now think of the sound effect from the movie Psycho).

Have you ever been trapped in a room by a nutcase with a machete chewkw?
Last time it happened to me I kept my gob shut and tried to pretend I was invisible..
The last time I was forced to react in that situation I think I roared a lot and went in low

chewkw - Member

What if there is no place for you to steer clear or if you are cornered?

Then I'd say as-salaam alaikum in a mega scottish accent and tell him I voted SNP. He would be instantly pacified, or at least would go and stab some english dude whose MP voted for the war.

Failing that, I'd throw down some smokebombs and vanish.

If I was hauled before the courts for the armed robbery of a post office and I claimed that my motive was purely to help my sick elderly mother with her bills would you automatically assume that I was telling the truth?

Yunki you are your usual delightful self.
I said I would run if I could but if I could not I hope I would be able to defend myself, I have been attacked before and without thinking put them on the floor its amazing how these things stay with you. I have also waded in in the past to defend people so would hope I would be brave enough to help.

So be as offensive as you wish as your insults really don't bother me.

A pound to a pinch of chicken shit says the guys a deluded pot-head !

yunki - Member

Have you ever been trapped in a room by a nutcase with a machete chewkw?
Last time it happened to me I kept my gob shut and tried to pretend I was invisible..
The last time I was forced to react in that situation I think I roared a lot and went in low

No, not exactly trapped in a that situation but rather sat inside a cafe watching people chasing each other with machetes ... gang fight btw. Then the police arrived with M16 ... they all ran away ... 😆

Really I don't know how I would react in those situation ...

Northwind - Member
Then I'd say as-salaam alaikum in a mega scottish accent and tell him I voted SNP. He would be instantly pacified, or at least would go and stab some english dude whose MP voted for the war.

Failing that, I'd throw down some smokebombs and vanish.

No, no ... you should shout Freedoommm!

Well, I bet one glance at me he would walk away coz I ain't white and secondly of no value to the media at all which I hope is the case. However, if I were to have the very typical oriental look, Chinese to be specific, then I might be in danger if I were in certain regions in the far east because they don't have white people to target there so they try to target the Chinese.

another chap was deliberately pushed off an underground platform earlier this week, the suspect wasnt a terrorist it appears,

That's different, you are making an excuse after the fact.

Yes well done, it's example of an excuse. Perhaps "this is for Syria" was simply an excuse to go out and stab someone, who knows.

It was a pretty poor terrorist outrage if that was the intention. The person most seriously injured doesn't apparently have any life threatening injuries.

.

another chap was deliberately pushed off an underground platform earlier this week, the suspect wasnt a terrorist it appears,

Perhaps he forgot to say "this is for Syria"? Or perhaps he had a sore throat and no one could hear him.

I'm pretty sure that anyone that thinks mowing folks down in the name of allah so can they can spend eternity with a 1000 virgins is probably mentally ill in some way.

Last I heard it was 72 virgins. Wish they'd make their minds up!

Yes well done, it's example of an excuse. Perhaps "this is for Syria" was simply an excuse to go out and stab someone, who knows.

DSPD then.

But would it have been easier to say nothing and just attack with aid of surprise you would have a better chance of doing more damage.

I am not saying I am right and maybe this was someone with mental health issues, maybe not.
You can't tell based on what we know.
What happened to lee rigby, a rational explanation would be he suffered at the hands of a mentally ill person(s) but didn't.
Then there was that poor woman who was beheaded in her own garden which was due to a sick man.

It could be the action of a would be terrorist or a madman, I am sure we will find out which.

It could be the action of a would be terrorist or a madman

I would guess it's pretty hard to tell the difference between the two....

Drac - Moderator
No, I haven't but my family all work or worked in mental health, my Dad was a senior lecturer in mental health and I've worked in health care for over 26 years. So I've learnt not to label someone as having mental health issue just because they do something that's not normal.

You say labelled, I say "partial MSE based on the short video clip, and a natural flair at my job"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12036774/Leytonstone-Tube-attack-Muhaydin-Mire-appears-in-court.html

"He was saying odd things, talking nonsense and saying that he was seeing demons."

"He was diagnosed by a doctor and treated in 2007 for paranoia and [treated] in hospital for three months."

So what happens now. If doctors confirm he has suffered a psychotic episode will he still stand trial for attempted murder. Where this will be put forward as his defence. And then if it is agreed by the court will he get off the charges and hospitalised until such time as he is deemed well enough to leave. Or can he still be convicted.

Probably s37 41, hospital order with restrictions.

"If you are under a Section 37/41 it means that the Crown Court has decided that (on the advice of two doctors) instead of going to prison, you would benefit from going to a hospital to receive treatment for a serious mental health problem. The judge will have decided that, because of concerns about public safety, you need to be both Section 37 and also Section 41. Section 37 deals with treatment of your mental health problem.

The Section 41 (often called a Restriction Order) means the Secretary of State decides when you can be given leave and when you can leave hospital. If it is agreed that you can leave hospital, conditions will be attached to your discharge. This is called a conditional discharge and means that you could be brought back to hospital if you do not comply with these conditions."

There will probably be an investigation as to why concerns were raised and how the Police reacted to these concerns, what was done, timeline of events etc

Certainly appears to be a mental health issue. Reported he was a driver for Uber too 😐

Still labelled just because a few days later people come forward with stories doesn't make is Ok to say he has mental health issues from the start.