[Closed] Term Time Holidays - The Arguments Can Continue.

Where they are is not the point - on holiday, off sick, on another useless course,

Holiday? Unlikely, teachers actually have to follow the rules!

Sick? Well would you rather they came in and gave it to your kids?

On a course? I've been on two in the last 3 years (oooh, 2 whole days off school!) one was on how to moderate the new GCSE coursework, the other was on child protection and how to spot and deal with signs of child abuse. So both totally useless!

Anyway, whilst you lot sit at your office desk and contemplate another afternoon of IT problems, I'm sitting in the garden drinking a beer, whilst my 3 year old gambols about with the cat.

I do have to mark some books at some point though 🙁

Where they are is not the point - on holiday, off sick, on another useless course, they aren't teaching my children and the teaching assistant or supply teacher rarely fills the gap adequately. Safe to say that every time the teacher is off my children are having their education disrupted. This happens at least once a week at primary level and many times at secondary level. Yet apparently if I interupt the magic that is the national curriculum for a personal reason then thats irresponsible

I've no idea what you do for a living but just imagine you are in charge of a large group of adults. You call a meeting to give them all a set of instructions. 5 minutes into giving them the instruction your phone goes off - it's a call you have to take. You halt the meeting and tell them to talk amongst themselves for 2 minutes - not ideal but 2 minutes is lost and the meeting reconvenes with everyone having heard everything but you are going to have to talk a bit quicker to get through everything you need to say.

Now imagine 5 minutes into the meeting Dave gets a call and goes out to take it. You carry on but when Dave comes back in he wants to know what's been said. You stop and go back and cover it quickly and everyone else shuffles their feet. Then Wendy takes a call and goes out. When she comes back you are too far into the meeting to stop again so ask your assistant to go and help Wendy. Your assistant was writing the minutes but never mind you'll do that yourself later. Next Wayne and Terry leave together to take a conference call which is really annoying because you were just about to test everyone to see if they understood what you had been going on about. When they come back your assistant is still helping Wendy (Wendy missed the stuff you were talking about whilst she was learning the the stuff she missed when she was out of the room and she's not the brightest- your assistant looks like she's ready to throttle her) so can't help Wayne and Terry so they start pissing around. Jenny joins Wayne and Terry messing about because she is easily distracted and normally your assistant would have been sat next to her but she's still stuck with Wendy.

To summarise - they are not the same. Or even close.

^^^ BEST METAPHOR EVA 😉

maybe what primary/ secondary education needs is a modular approach.

Might be a logistical nightmare, but if your kids are falling behind at 'history 3.1' and maths '2.4', then they repeat those 'blocks'.

That way, you guarantee that the pupils have comprehensively mastered each subject.

Win win?

Very well put convert.

Now imagine 5 minutes into the meeting Dave gets a call and goes out to take it. You carry on but when Dave comes back in he wants to know what's been said. He gets given the minutes to read in his own time and the everyone continues as normal.

He gets given the minutes to read in his own time and the everyone continues as normal.

But Dave can't read too well. So you have to sit down with Dave and go through it line by line. Also he's the anxious sort and because he was not in the meeting he didn't get a sense of everyone else's level of understanding and spends the next two weeks worrying that he doesn't get it as well as everyone else.

Now imagine 5 minutes into the meeting Dave gets a call and goes out to take it. You carry on but when Dave comes back in he wants to know what's been said. He gets given the minutes to read in his own time and the everyone continues as normal.

But what if the second half of the meeting depends on the stuff that Dave missed, but he hasn't been able to go through the minutes yet?

What about if it's just in the three minutes at the end where Dave and everyone else just has a laugh and watches Minions on DVD?

As with everything else, there is room for compromise and realism - particularly when it comes to primary age children. However, the fact that some parents will take the piss, or put pressure on headteachers to allow poorly timed excessive absence, means that it's easier for the schools to be given the get-out-of-jail-free card of offering no discretion whatsoever.

Minions is more than three minutes long. Your analogy is flawed.

Bloody Dave! He's just repeating stuff 😉

Your analogy is flawed.

I prefer 'stretched to breaking point'. 😀

My children seem to get the answerphone message more often these days what with chromebook learning but I do take your point Convert and I agree with you in the main which is why my kids have only missed 2 days so far for 'holiday purposes' in 7 or 8 years of school and very little sickness luckily

But what if the second half of the meeting depends on the stuff that Dave missed, but he hasn't been able to go through the minutes yet?

Eh? Do you know what minutes are?

What about if it's just in the three minutes at the end where Dave and everyone else just has a laugh and watches Minions on DVD?

Quite.

My daughter was worried about being pulled out of school for the four days before half term because she'd miss the Valentine's Day activities (drawing love potions and hearts, dancing and movies).

I'm pretty sure it hasn't jeopardised her degree prospects too badly 😆

Eh? Do you know what minutes are?

Yes. Do you know what my point was?

No idea.

It was that a kid may not have time to catch up before new stuff is taught that builds on the missed stuff. So it may cause knock on problems for quite a while.

Just like any kid who misses their homework, even those with 100% attendance.

Just like any kid who misses their homework, even those with 100% attendance.

Remarkably little homework is covering new material - most is consolidation and reinforcement.

So giving kids a little extra to catch up will cause no issues.

So giving kids [s]a little extra to catch up[/s] entire new concepts they missed in class to do at home will cause no issues.

Of course not 😉

Entrire new. 😆

Entrire new. 😆

Ummm, checks spelling...nope that's not the cause of Drac's mirth......'entire' instead of 'entirely' might be that......maybe he doubts 'entire' new concepts exist......still not sure.

Go on give us a clue, what's funny?

Oooops!

I was on holiday when we learnt how to spell entire.

Funny that you think it's something so entirely that it can't be caught up on during evenings and weekends.

[quote=winston ]Where they are is not the point - on holiday, off sick, on another useless course

It's precisely the point, because as already pointed out, if they're sick you presumably don't want them going in and giving the bugs to 28 kids - and kids almost all have some time off sick, which is normal (I tried to send my son in, but school sent him home twice this term!) Courses tend to be kind of useful things. Neither equate at all to taking your kids out for holidays.

I'm tempted to call BS on your once a week claim - except that my kids have both had their main teacher have one day off a week every week. The thing is though, one was because he was the deputy head and covered for the head one day a week, the other was a NQT and one day a week on development. Though in both cases there was a regular scheduled replacement teacher, both very good teachers who my kids liked. So BS.

Took mine out for 2 weeks in December so we could have Xmas with my family in Australia. I accept that it's a bit selfish and would have paid the fine had there been one.

Mmmm 4 pages in and nobody has mentioned that this would be less of a problem if teachers took fewer holidays. Teachers should get similar amount of holidays to other professions - say 8 weeks including public holidays. Kids should have to spend 32 weeks in core time and then have 8 additional weeks to attend in the remaining 12 weeks the staff are in. Everyone then gets 4 floating weeks - simples.

Alternatively those who can't take time off when they need to fit in with school hols could consider their career choices.

Alternatively those who can't take time off when they need to fit in with school hols could consider their career choices.

Yeah as it's that simple.

[quote=Drac ]Yeah as it's that simple.

I expect trolls get holidays whenever they like

Yeah as it's that simple.

It may not be simple, but it may be necessary.

Alternatively those who can't take time off when they need to fit in with school hols could consider their career choices.

Excellent - so no one with kids can work in the NHS, fire service, police, military, hospitality, etc etc etc?

What could possibly go wrong?

Mmmm 4 pages in and nobody has mentioned that this would be less of a problem if teachers took fewer holidays. Teachers should get similar amount of holidays to other professions - say 8 weeks including public holidays. Kids should have to spend 32 weeks in core time and then have 8 additional weeks to attend in the remaining 12 weeks the staff are in. Everyone then gets 4 floating weeks - simples.

Genius.

3 months a year where every class has on average two thirds of the group in. So a few too many for 1-2-1 tutorials but not enough to introduce any new material. The kids in are selected not by the material they need/want to cover or by ability but by where they were going on holiday.

Why has no one come up with this idea before? Can't fathom it. You need to take it the education authorities - they'll be made up.

Excellent - so no one with kids can work in the NHS, fire service, police, military, hospitality, etc etc etc?

So no one who works in any of those can take time off in school holidays?

Excellent - so no one with kids can work in the NHS, fire service, police, military, hospitality, etc etc etc?

Or, ironically, teaching.

So no one who works in any of those can take time off in school holidays?

Keep trying.

footflaps - Member
He's fighting against the wrong people - he should argue that the holiday companys are ripping us off on non term bookings.
You're not being ripped off. No holiday company could have enough capacity to cope with all the demand in school holidays and not go bust because their planes / hotels are 90% empty the rest of the year. So, they all (sensibly) ration supply by raising prices at times when demand exceeds supply.

It's basic economics.

POSTED 8 HOURS AGO #

They do? How come Menorca and my flight to/from in non term time are rammed then?

Keep trying

Asking the rhetorical questions?

[quote=Drac ]Keep tr[s]y[/s]ing.

oll

They do? How come Menorca and my flight to/from in non term time are rammed then?

Because they are selling the tickets off at a loss (carefully balanced to get the planes as full as possible for the highest price they can get away with - but still at a loss) so they can get folk over to the location to spend their money in the bars/on trips etc. As I said previously low season is about damage limitation for the big operators.

Asking the rhetorical questions?

Rhetorical is the wrong word.

The kids in are selected not by the material they need/want to cover or by ability but by [s]where[/s] [b]when[/b] they were going on holiday.

[b]FTFY[/b]
And of course, all kids learn at the same pace in the same class 🙄

Is it really so difficult to consider alternatives to the current system?

Because they are selling the tickets off at a loss (carefully balanced to get the planes as full as possible for the highest price they can get away with - but still at a loss) so they can get folk over to the location to spend their money in the bars/on trips etc.

Im still comfused by this apparent exemplar of business logic. So the high prices of non Term time sold at a loss balance the low prices ans empty planes of term time how?

Its been a long day, either im missing something or i womt be investimg im Footlaps Corp.

So no one who works in any of those can take time off in school holidays?

Pretty common to have restrictions on holidays in those professions, yes.

And indeed any profession that requires a certain level of staff cover and/or is at its busiest during the holidays.

Is it really so difficult to consider alternatives to the current system?

No. Alternative thinking is good and should be cherished. But that doesn't mean you get to slide the dross thinking and get to call it 'blue sky'.

#donthavekidshaveholidaysinstead.

Pretty common to have restrictions on holidays in those professions, yes.

And indeed any profession that requires a certain level of staff cover and/or is at its busiest during the holidays.

But no blanket bans on taking time off during school holidays?

But no blanket bans on taking time off during school holidays?

Restrictions not banned.

Seems like a storm in a teacup to have kicked off over holidays corresponding to the laws of economics...

As someone without kids, I await flaming by saying: fleece the breeders.

No. Alternative thinking is good and should be cherished. But that doesn't mean you get to slide the dross thinking and get to call it 'blue sky'.

It may be [i]dross[/i] and 'blue sky' (whatever that means) in your opinion, but it is an alternative. All too often, it's the apparently immovable or untouchable elements that need the focus to make changes that benefit the majority.

I don't believe the whole it's quiet when the kids aren't off rubbish. These huge companies don't rely on the extra income just from the school holidays, they merely make more money on these periods because they know they can, it's just a case of if you want to go then you've gotta pay what they say.
My stand is if I want to take MY children out of school I will do so, however as I'm not a knob I write a nice letter asking permission, speak to the right people and discuss it like adults. This coming Easter my children will require one day off as we go Monday to Monday, that will be the only day they have off this school year barring illness, so far it's 100 perecnt attendance for them both.

On a final point, some of the schools revently have moved the holiday start days compared to others, all this has done is inflated the prices for 3 weeks over Easter rather than the original 2, therefore pointing back at profiteering by the holiday companies.

as I'm not a knob

We only have your word for that. 😉

All too often, it's the apparently immovable or untouchable elements that need the focus to make changes that benefit the majority.

Such as allowing kids to have holidays with their family in term time.

Excellent - so no one with kids can work in the NHS, fire service, police, military, hospitality, etc etc etc?

Restrictions not banned.

Thank you

You might also want to expand you dictionary.com search to 'rhetorical [b]question[/b]' rather than restrict it to 'rhetorical'.

Such as allowing kids to have holidays with their family in term time.

You mean like having times when kids don't need to be there all the same time as the teachers?

Still the wrong word.

So the high prices of non Term time sold at a loss balance the low prices ans empty planes of term time how?

Not sure quite what you meant to type there. But no, I would no be investing in the tourism industry - it's not a big money earner.

In essence....put simply.... the sticker price on a low season holiday is not what it's costing the operator. They are making a loss on it. But they have fixed costs for the aircraft and the hotel irrespective of if they sell the place so they make less loss if you are on the holiday than if you are not. Once you are on the holiday they can further reduce their losses with what you spend whilst out there. Yes, they are making a profit on the high season prices but armed with the knowledge that the low season price is not a true reflection of the cost of the holiday to the operator the price don't seem quite so extortionate. Shoulder period prices are probably more indicative of the genuine cost of the holiday. But holiday companies are not public services - you would not expect a bike shop to sell you a bike at cost would you?

Better?

[quote=geoffj ]And of course, all kids learn at the same pace in the same class

An issue which would be helped immensely by having varying numbers of kids in school for 1/4 of the year.

[quote=geoffj ]It may be dross and 'blue sky' (whatever that means) in your opinion, but it is an alternative.

With such a line of thought you can comfort yourself knowing that you're far from alone amongst the electorate.

> Restrictions not banned.
Thank you

Restricted, and therefore fitting your definition of people who should reconsider their career choices because they [i]"can't take time off when they need to fit in with school hols"[/i]. No?

Mmmm 4 pages in and nobody has mentioned that this would be less of a problem if teachers took fewer holidays. Teachers should get similar amount of holidays to other professions - say 8 weeks including public holidays.

That'll make reversing the teacher shortages easy!!

An issue which would be helped immensely by having varying numbers of kids in school for 1/4 of the year.

No one said it would help - it might not be worse than the current position though.

With such a line of thought you can comfort yourself knowing that you're far from alone amongst the electorate.

That's good to know.

That'll make reversing the teacher shortages easy!!

Teachers are only in it for the holidays 😯

I'm joking - teachers should be paid significantly more, have better support and have more autonomy to do their job as they see fit - they just shouldn't get more holidays than me 😉

It's not been mentioned yet but the dad in the case actually has three children. Two were on half term at the time the holiday was taken, the one that had unauthorised absence goes to a different school and had a half term week that did not coincide with the other two children.

How does he manage that?

His point is that the school rule was over 90% attendance was acceptable and even with the week off his child still was over that so it should be acceptable

Its been a long day, either im missing something or i womt be investimg im Footlaps Corp.

For my own interests I had a quick look at TUI's figures over the last few years - in a former life I worked for a firm that was bought up by TUI. In the last 10 years they don't seem to have posted figures with a profit margin ratio of greater than 6% and that was a standout year from one of the most successful firms in the sector. That's dire - healthy in most industries would be around 30%. Whilst it might seem like you are being 'ripped off' by greedy companies in high season that's a very sucky return. Definitely not to be invested in!

My kids have have been collectively in School for coming up for 10 years and they've missed 3 days between them. That's about a 99.7% attendance does that mean we've booked up enough brownie points for a massive cheapo holiday. No it doesn't!

Your kids and other people kids education is a privilege that for one a lot of people in the world would die for and I pay a fortune in tax to fund.

If you can't afford your holiday in the school holidays then you can't afford it whether that's a week in Magaluf or a week in Val d'isere. I can't get over this sense of entitlement that people have that they right to the holiday they want or their kids deserve a holiday after studying for Stats. We were so poor when i was a kid didn't have a single holiday full stop (not in the UK or abroad) by the sounds of it some of you would call the NSPCC as it's child abuse not to give your children a holiday abroad or a trip to Disneyland. Two of the thing I hate in modern society, wanting everything now snd mollycoddling kids.

I'm taking my kids to a big wood north of Birmingham for the Easter Holidays as that's all I can afford at the moment. I'm sure they'll have a great time on their bikes, playing in the woods and avoiding the doggers.

If you can't afford your holiday in the school holidays then you can't afford it

What if you can afford it but just don't particularly like getting utterly shafted for a holiday that was literally a third of the price the previous week?

We were so poor when i was a kid didn't have a single holiday full stop

Ah once again the "I had a miserable life so you should too" argument. 🙄

If you can't afford your holiday in the school holidays then you can't afford it whether that's a week in Magaluf or a week in Val d'isere.

For me it's not about the cost.

[quote=geoffj ]it might not be worse than the current position though.

I'm enjoying your logic here

That's good to know.

You appear to have misunderstood me.

It was a third the price because there was no demand because kids were in school it's the market price and your not getting shafted if you don't go, no one is holding a gun against your head to go on a foriegn holiday. It's no different to getting the train to London at 7am £250 or 10am £37.

aracer - Member
geoffj » it might not be worse than the current position though.
[i]I'm enjoying your logic here[/i]

Good - try not to conflate too many issues and you might just follow the thread 😉

You appear to have misunderstood me.

Not sure if this has been covered but teachers pay more for their holidays too. Are they allowed to take 2 weeks off mid term time to make the most of cheap deals?

Couple of days wouldn't make much difference to the kids education anyway...

For my own interests I had a quick look at TUI's figures over the last few years - in a former life I worked for a firm that was bought up by TUI. In the last 10 years they don't seem to have posted figures with a profit margin ratio of greater than 6% and that was a standout year from one of the most successful firms in the sector.

You can argue that the peak travellers are subsidising the off-peak or you can argue the off-peak pay just enough to allow the peak to happen. Either way there's no point complaining - that's the way the numbers work.

It's not all about cost though, my brother and his wife works in what left of the British holiday trade, they don't earn much and don't take the kids abroad but if he didn't take them out of school they couldn't go on holiday as a family from Easter holidays to Autumn half term inclusive. Leaving somewhere in the uk in the winter as the only choice. Our parents were in the trade to and again we would have never have been
This is the reality for many working in the British holiday trade.
I see that it's not good to have students being able to go for a weeks holiday here that there during term time just so the parents can afford to take the to Disney Land but it's not the only reason.

Not sure if this has been covered but teachers pay more for their holidays too. Are they allowed to take 2 weeks off mid term time to make the most of cheap deals?

True but they get more paid holiday than most and they save on childcare that they don't need during school holidays. Others must pay for childcare because they get less holiday than their kids or can't take it during holiday time.

Would those advocating taking their kids out of school in term time be ok if I ignored a few rules and regulations that I don't agree with? I think that the 70mph speed limit on the motorway is silly and a bit restrictive so I'll just crack on as I please if that's ok with you all?

Of course, the truth of the matter is that as ever a minority of entitled idiots have necessitated a hard rule where discretion would be a better tool. There are plenty of occasions where absence from school for a day or two would do little harm to anyone but as some grown ups can't be trusted to act like adults and see the bigger picture rules have to be imposed on all.

the matter is that as ever a minority of entitled idiots have necessitated a hard rule where discretion would be a better tool.

It's not been mentioned yet but the dad in the case actually has three children. Two were on half term at the time the holiday was taken, the one that had unauthorised absence goes to a different school and had a half term week that did not coincide with the other two children.

How does he manage that?

Maybe go on hols at a different time? It's not hard to figure out.

Spot on, so much red tape and stupid rules are there because a few take the piss which then negatively impacts the minority or those really in need

No one [b]needs[/b] a holiday.

I think that the 70mph speed limit on the motorway is silly and a bit restrictive so I'll just crack on as I please if that's ok with you all?

Not really a great analogy, since taking my kids out of school doesn't tend to endanger anyone's life, but okay...

So if you faced a £60 fine for speeding on the motorway but [i]not[/i] speeding would result in you paying £3000 extra for exactly the same journey then what would you do?

And on top of that, what if your work circumstances meant that driving at a normal speed was impossible anyway?

So if you faced a £60 fine for speeding on the motorway but not speeding would result in you paying £3000 extra for exactly the same journey then what would you do?

Poor analogy - you don't have to go on holiday so you can choose not to pay the £3000 extra.