[Closed] Tents - sewn in groundsheet?

I think they mean 'not a tarp' basically.

My understanding is that a sewn in groundsheet is a tent with groundsheet sewn to the outer? Now most tents nowadays do not comply as they have a seperate inner (with groundsheet) and outer. e.g laser comp, big agnes etc etc.

They don't mean sewn to the outer, just that it has a floor- all of those tents you mention are fine. Otherwise as you say that means a single skin tent which are pretty rare/rubbish in the UK.
Pretty much everyone will have Terra Nova Lasers or whatever the benchmark is these days. I used to use my TN Solar, although those are pretty heavy by today's standards!

I also thought it may be just to stop people using tarps or shelters with no inner e.g. if you took the laser comp but no inner it would be considerably lighter. I just find it a weird standard and outdated to measure if your tent is suitable.

Yeh know that most will have laser comp/photon's. My budget at the moment does not stretch to that. Other times I have entered a mountain marathon I used a single skinned coleman raid. Passes kit inspection but have taken a bivi bag and used tent like a tarp. Head in legs and body out.

I am pretty sure they will allow my current set up as this time I won't be challenging the pointy end.

[quote=ajf ]I just find it a weird standard and outdated to measure if your tent is suitable.

Given it allows pretty much all standard tents of the sort people will want to use, weird and outdated in what way?

[quote=MrSalmon ]Otherwise as you say that means a single skin tent which are pretty rare/rubbish in the UK.

It's a while since I've been involved, but when I was most of those up the pointy end seemed to use Sup Airs. I own a Polaris shelter which is a similar single skin tent but a bit lighter - fine for an overnight in a MM, it can collapse on you a bit in the wind, but it doesn't matter all that much (I've also spent a night with 3 other people in a Sup Air!) I guess Laser Comps are close enough in weight that for most people the extra comfort is worth it now?

The definition of a sewn in groundsheet akaik is that the groundsheet is sewn in to the tent outer. This is to reduce drafts, bugs getting in and water getting in. Most tents are not like that nowadays hence i said it seems a weird outdated standard.

If that is not their definition or if it is general wording to ensure that people don't take outers only then fair enough.

Sup airs omg I remember them, they were being phased out and pretty rare and the comps were the main force when I finished my last mm (7th elite so pointy end).

4 people? I am guessing you either knew them well, or def did by the end of it? You sleep on top of each other?

It's a while since I've been involved, but when I was most of those up the pointy end seemed to use Sup Airs.

My understanding is that a sewn in groundsheet is a tent with groundsheet sewn to the outer?

You understanding is incorrect. The groundsheet is sewn to the inner.

A separate groundsheet was common about 40 years ago, but pretty much nonexistent these days (super light minimalist stuff excepted perhaps). I would be surprised if any normal modern tent didn't fit the requirements.

You understanding is incorrect. The groundsheet is sewn to the inner.

Oh okay fair enough, i'll ignore the stuff I have read then.

So do you think this implies it needs a bug nest? I know I'll get definitive yes or no from the organisers but couldn't get head round the actual meaning of the rule.

Tent I want to use is more of a tarp tent with actual tent poles with a bucket groundsheet that clips in. Only thing that is different from a standard tent is some mesh bug screen.

[img] [/img]

Although I now find I have access to a terra nova photon so a bit of a mute question.

[quote=ajf ]Tent I want to use is more of a tarp tent

Which is exactly what the rules are trying to prevent the use of in general - though looking at what you have with a bucket groundsheet, the difference between that and my single skin is fairly minimal in practice.

Maybe I'm a wussy old fart but I wouldn't be venturing out in the UK's delightful weather without a sewn in groundsheet.

There are bucket loads of lightweight tents which comply with the requirements.

If you got kit checked with that one in the photo you wouldn't be starting, or event worse if you got checked at finish then you would be DQ.

As above, sewn in groundsheet means sewn to the outer (single skin) or the inner as per the Terra Nova and 99.9% of most modern tents.

the difference between that and my single skin is fairly minimal in practice.

Yep very little difference and the difference between this and tent with inner and outer is some fine mesh. My feeling was the rule was to stop people just bringing the outer only as they do allow hooped bivi's.

If you got kit checked with that one in the photo you wouldn't be starting, or event worse if you got checked at finish then you would be DQ.

I have checked already with the organisers already. Not wanting to have a dsq next to name. 🙂

sewn in groundsheet means sewn to the outer (single skin) or the inner as per the Terra Nova and 99.9% of most modern tents.

You understanding is incorrect. The groundsheet is sewn to the inner.

So basically sewn in groundsheet means it needs to be connected to something (inner or outer - opinion seems to differ), even if it is only bit of meshing which stops you getting munched buy small critters. Yep still find that a bit weird.

As I say, I do now have access to someone elses tent which does fit the standard requirements. I was really asking what constitutes a sewn in groundsheet as I thought it just meant sewn to the outer.

You know what I'd do if I wanted to use that? I'd get out a needle and thread and sew together the clips so the groundsheet is permanently attached. That way it meets the letter of the rule. There is a long tradition of home made and modified kit in MMs - to some extent pioneered by none other than Mike Parsons (Mr Karrimor) himself.

[quote=ajf ]My feeling was the rule was to stop people just bringing the outer only as they do allow hooped bivi's.

That's my understanding too, though also as mentioned to prevent the use of tarps - I used a borrowed hooped bivi rather than my single skin shelter on the Yorkshire Dales Polaris where the wind blew many years ago. Had friends in Sup Airs who had a very uncomfortable night (the organisor apparently came and checked a few times on one who the Sup Air was blowing flat on).

A sewn-in groundsheet is supposed to be waterproof and render the tent weatherproof (from below as well as above). Not having read the regs I don't know if that's explicit but that's what a groundsheet is. If a tent is single skin the sewn in groundsheet is (obviously) attached to that skin. If it's an inner with flysheet, the groundsheet is attached to the inner.

So basically sewn in groundsheet means it needs to be connected to something (inner or outer - opinion seems to differ), even if it is only bit of meshing which stops you getting munched buy small critters. Yep still find that a bit weird.

No opinions differing here I don't think ?

Not many tents out there with 100% mesh inners, mesh is normally only used for ventilation panels.

Which MM is it that you are doing ?

You know what I'd do if I wanted to use that? I'd get out a needle and thread and sew together the clips so the groundsheet is permanently attached. That way it meets the letter of the rule.

😀 I do have a bug nest that doesn't quite fit inside the tent, its a touch too long and tall, and I was looking to modify that should I really need to. Have asked around if I know anyone with a sewing machine but drawn a blank otherwise I would have had a go myself at a full inner.

Mike Parsons has done loads of research into that area. Based on how the old school pioneers did it. Fascinating stuff.

http://innovation-for-extremes.net/gear-timezone/mallory-myths/

Not many tents out there with 100% mesh inners, mesh is normally only used for ventilation panels.

sorry no, what I meant was it was weird that to pass kit requirements you essentially need the bug mesh. That seems to be the only reason my tent may not pass requirements. Not that I expected a 100% mesh inner. got to admit never seen a tent with that. They all have a groundsheet sewn in usually.

Its the Rab Mountain marathon. Done it a few times but not for the last 5 or 6 years.

sorry no, what I meant was it was weird that to pass kit requirements you essentially need the bug mesh. That seems to be the only reason my tent may not pass requirements. Not that I expected a 100% mesh inner. got to admit never seen a tent with that. They all have a groundsheet sewn in usually.

🙄 No, you need a sewn in groundsheet, as above, its to stop people using tarps and other weird things that you would freeze in on a bad night, bearing in mind the rest of your kit is lightweight.

I did the RAB when it was in Martindale a while back, it dropped to a few minus in the night, there was lots of very cold people in the morning, me included, I wouldn't have wanted to be under a tarp

[quote=ajf ]Not that I expected a 100% mesh inner. got to admit never seen a tent with that.

Here you go - I own one of these, and it's blinking cold in all but the hottest weather (got cold in it a couple of weeks ago)

[img] [/img]

Meets MM kit requirements though 😉 I've not used it in one (over twice the weight of my single skin), but I've seen them used.

@tragically1969

🙄 🙂 yeh the groundsheet would be sewn in to the bug nest/inner. No that won't stop me being cold if the weather turns. Yes it would pass the requirements. As per aracer's example.

I'd take more clothes or my bivvy bag as well as that's only about 280grams if weather report suggested it was needed. Last Rab I did, I slept outside my tent in a bivvy bag as was a nice warm night. They ratified that my bivvy was suitable for an emergency bag and it was also a waterproof dry bag and sleeping bag cover. Triple use!

@aracer oh thats what is meant by 100% mesh inner. As it has a bucket groundsheet I assumed it wasn't 100% mesh inner hence thinking never seen them. Was going to post a picture of another NF tent to illustrate to tragically1969 that the only difference between my tent and many others that pass requirements is that the bug mesh is not sewn in.

I did an omm a long time ago and camped on some god forsaken bog of a field in driving rain with a North face tent with an inner like that (tadpole I think?). I was pretty warm considering the couple of cm of water I was sleeping in. Partner was freezing though. Outer didn't come all way down to floor and driving rain got underneath. Saw some sup air tents there and was glad of my puddle I was sleeping in.