[Closed] Tenancy advice? Landlady selling flat during tenancy agreement

If you have a three year tenancy, as I understand it you are part of the fixtures and fittings in any sale until the end of the tenancy.

IANAL but used to see this regularly when I worked with protected tenancies under the old Rent Acts.

Pretty much that ^^.

I'm not offering advice but the sale of the property includes the tenancy and tenants.

What the new landlord does to that tenancy after the sale is upto them.

Your rights under the lease will continue

That's how it was explained to me as well when I was selling a rented flat; the new buyer takes over the letting agreement for as long as it has left to run and then becomes their landlord until the agreement needs to be renewed.

Thanks guys, that's a relief.

Many years ago rented a flat , needed repairs etc, but only 100 quid a month so i didnt bother complain till the boiler blew up, huge bang, gas board came out, and condemmed it, so landlord had a huge bill, she didnt want to pay, so got a letter she would offer me cash to move out so she could sell early.

So i did, landlord will probably offer cash advance, but probably cant legally evict you.

some intresting stuff here.

https://www.gov.uk/private-renting-tenancy-agreements/your-landlord-wants-to-end-your-tenancy

Thanks project - really helpful. Feeling a lot less concerned now. 🙂

Yeh if there's a standing tenancy then it's passed on to the new owner.

Where things might get contentious is if they want prospective buyers to view the property whilst you are in it. You have a right to peaceful enjoyment of the property during tenancy, so it would have to be at times that suit you.

Whether those times are in line with you, the owner, the agency and the prospective buyers are where it might get awkward.

letting agent here.....

Sorry but most of you are wrong. If the new landlord wants rid of you they can quite easily by serving a section 21 notice which is non fault based. Providing the LL has done all their legal bits right (secured deposit etc) then a court HAS to award possession back.

My concern in this scenario is the new landlord imposing a rent rise on you and try and get a higher rent from you.

Yeah, googling section 21 has me more worried now. Realistically could get served that as early as April, with a 2 month notice period to get out. 🙁

You're a good tenant, part of the advantages of the new buyer investing. I don't imagine they'd want you out!

You're a good tenant, part of the advantages of the new buyer investing. I don't imagine they'd want you out!

Yep, but given the way the market is going in London, the new landlord may well be looking to hike the rent.

If the new LL can give you notice in April, so could the old one. In reality you are no less secure than you were.
Can you not buy it yourself?

If the new LL can give you notice in April, so could the old one. In reality you are no less secure than you were.
Can you not buy it yourself?

True, but she was looking for long term tenants who would look after the place with minimal fuss - the last tenants were here for 7 years and by the end were paying well below the market value. The landlady's attitude towards tenants was one of the plus points.

Couldn't buy it ourselves as we have no deposit - stuck in the renting cycle really.

I think the place could be rented for £100-150 more than we pay, but when you factor in costs such as evicting us, and the risk of the place sitting empty I am hopeful they would see it as not worth it.

Is there a prospective buyer yet (i.e. has an offer been accepted)? Maybe worth speaking to them in the first instance, see what their plans are, open lines of communication asap and all that.

True, but she was looking for long term tenants who would look after the place with minimal fuss - the last tenants were here for 7 years and by the end were paying well below the market value. The landlady's attitude towards tenants was one of the plus points.

Yes I can see your point, and I sympathise entirely. But that has proved to be fruitless as her attitude to long term tenants has changed - ie wanting to sell the place.

IHN has good advice, see if you can talk to the new LL, might turn out to be good for you.

What's the agreement for a three year tenancy? Unusual in the UK to have anything other than assured shorthold

It is assured shorthold, but over a 3 year period. Which, on reflection, seems to only really protect the landlord.

No prospective landlord yet as the place has not yet gone on the market, but will try to follow IHN's advice.

I should add that I have no specific applicable knowledge, just experience that picking up the phone and talking to the right person often works wonders in situations where something's becoming a worry...

Nothing to worry about
[img] [/img]
Looking forward to meeting you

Where is it as a matter of interest?

Overlooking Richmond park according to the OP

If you're on a fixed term of 3 years, you might be ok under section 21.

If I were you, I'd take your rental agreement down to the CAB and see what they have to say.

Hi sounds like you are in kt2. Look for the break clauses in your ast.

my flat in kt2 will be empty next week but sadly the rents have increased 20% from last year. The outgoing tenants were there 5 years and I always increased the rent c inflation. Afraid kt is a bit of a bubble with foreign students snd a hospital.

I bought 2 flats in kt2 tenants in situ and always respected their rights and that it was their home. I m afraid i wish i hadnt bothered as the hospitality was not reciprocated.

I m seriously tempted to just let the agents manage them.

good luck I feel for you renting in a hotspot

surely the section 21 can only be served at the end of the assured period which in this case is 3 years from December? The rent would also be fixed in there unless otherwise stated?

One way you could be evicted is if the new buyer wants to (or claims to want to) live there or loses their home and needs to move in.

but sadly the rents have increased 20% from last year.

Why sadly? You are under no obligation to put rent up. It's a choice. Okay it doesnt make financial sense to not increase rent if the market is going up around you but it just fuels the increases. Same with greedy sellers.

Cheers the issue with rent rises as a ll is the massive increase in selling prices - a decent 2 bedder in kt 2 is now c 400k plus. As a ll you need some return on this so the agents keep pushing up rents or get no instructions.

In 10 years of owning 2 there theres never been a void, i really feel for tenants as its 1400 pcm rent plus 200 council tax - you work and sleep just to pay the rent.

Kt is a hotspot - lovely place to live but a nice 3 bed semi is 800k..plus

Good detective work poolman - yes we are in KT2.

My work offer an Employee Advisory Service - I think I'm going to contact them to double check exactly where I stand.

Ok no worries I know the roads you are on. V nice too near the gate but probably not as high rent wise as kt2 central, ie 2 mins to br.

yes check the break clause in yr ast either way.

I ll be over next week painting the flat for 2 weeks so if you need any help just email. The ast is pretty watertight so you should be safe.

Good luck i really feel for you,

Why sadly? You are under no obligation to put rent up. It's a choice. Okay it doesnt make financial sense to not increase rent if the market is going up around you but it just fuels the increases. Same with greedy sellers.

From a capitalist POV there are also plenty of customers with money to balance out the "greedy" sellers. You could call them "greedy tenants", those who want a short commute, nice house, decent area and are prepared to pay more than someone else for that.

Most tenancy agreements have some sort of fixed rental increases built in (e.g. inflation or 5% whichever is higher) but with rents rising faster than inflation this "sadly" means that if you are forced to move it usually means in increase in rent.

surely the section 21 can only be served at the end of the assured period which in this case is 3 years from December? The rent would also be fixed in there unless otherwise stated?

I wonder about this too. I only do 12 month contracts, local council advise that after 6 mon ths tenants can serve notice to quit (and so can I) but I am not 100% sure what the law is here..

Anyway there are moves afoot to create legal systems for longer tenancies, which I think most LL's want. Interesting article here from residential Landlords Assoc.
http://www.cityam.com/234205/bashing-landlords-wont-bring-down-sky-high-rents-in-london

Sorry poolman, you say you feel for the op, but you then go on to say you, yourself have increased rents 20% in a year.

Presumably your costs haven't gone up 20%. Quite frankly you are taking the ****ing piss, little wonder landlords are seen to be ****ing scum!

Presumably your costs haven't gone up 20%.

You shouldn't assume, his costs may well have increased way way more than 20% with the current LL tax changes due in April. He also justified it by implying that the previous tenant was on inflation increases for for the last 5 years. The implication is that he has re advertised the property at 20% higher, perhaps he may not get this. But it is not like he has made the current tenants pay 20% more is it?

PS if you changed jobs for a 20% pay rise is that immoral?

Quite frankly you are taking the * piss, little wonder landlords are seen to be * scum!

Rubbish. It would be a particularly altrustic person who didn't want to get market rate for renting or selling their property - who wants to give money away? The greedy ones are those who don't look after the property properly or withhold deposits.

I wonder about this too. I only do 12 month contracts, local council advise that after 6 mon ths tenants can serve notice to quit (and so can I) but I am not 100% sure what the law is here..

Anyway there are moves afoot to create legal systems for longer tenancies, which I think most LL's want.

That's my understanding too - Assured S/H has a 6 month term. You can write a longer contract (so you don't need to sign a new contract after 12 months, or to give assurance over rent increases - eg no change for 3 years) but either side can break at any time after 6 months. Given that if you don't sign a new contract the first is assumed to run on as is (ie either side can give notice) a longer contract doesn't really achieve anything.

Assured S/H tenancies are shit for everyone as far as I can see. As a LL you want long term security and the same as a tenant.

but either side can break at any time after 6 months

pretty sure that when I had my flat rented out they had a 12 month contract and that was that. At the end of that they requested another 12 month contract which I gave them, for their security. I gave them plenty of notice when I was planning to sell and let them find a new place, did my repairs (maintenance that was needed but not affecting them and would have caused disruption while they were there) and got it sold.

Thanks scruff for the rather unhelpful comment.

I doubt anyone on here would refuse a pay rise and yes ll costs are going up thanks to govt reforms.

My places are never empty and i ve never witheld a penny of deposit money despite sone tennants taking the piss. I have heard every excuse over the years....you just wise up and move on.

Sadly when you provide a personal service some people think you are a pushover.

I would imagine we're going to see a lot more Landlords selling up, esp in the overheated SE and London over the next year.

As per the discussion above - costs are increasing because of recent changes, and the culture of BTL/property speculation being to attempt to make maximum return from minimal expense, usually based on debt-funding, means Landlords will typically try to increase the rent rather than just accept a lower margin

This is what happens when your income is driven by a need to cover the interest on the amount of debt you've taken out rather the more usual model of running a business when your costs can be managed...

There's evidence that some Landlords are sensible and selling up as they realise that BTL has been (deliberately) holed beneath the waterline, whilst others think they can just rinse their tenants for more rent - somewhat ignoring the fact that a) wages are not going up and b) tenants do have options like house-sharing or just moving away (as I have) c) renting in the UK is a highly emotionally charged issue in the UK and tenants are increasingly less likely to keep quiet if they're not happy.

Worth thinking about what the massive rise in the number of BLT mortgages means - it means more supply - possibly excess supply. Which gives tenants the upper hand...

Two anecdotes from me: a flat I tried to rent in December with a landlord who refused to negotiate - is still on the market, now at £25 less per month. Clearly the demand they expected isn't there. They first put it on the market beginning November so that's 3+months lost rent...

My new tenancy agreement has some very badly worded reference to annual rent increases using RPI. I asked for clarification as the wording was so (deliberately?) unclear and the agency told me they usually recommend a 5-6% increase! RPI is virtually zero, as are wages - so that's just extortion! In the past I may have sucked this up but if they try and increase rent by that amount when RPI is at zero then they'll be finding a lot of resistance this time around - I'm justifiably angry about this culture of 'rinse the tenant for as much as you can get away with' and I'm not alone...

OP: I would move out if I were you - there's no security for you in your current position - attacks on BTL haven't even really begun yet - Osbourne is seriously short of tax income + London house prices are looking really quite shaky when you look behind the vested interests' propaganda and BoE haven't even started taking action yet + plenty of evidence people are just moving out of London in despair - so a lot of landlords are going to realise their position is untenable and sell up... which is the point of attacking BTL of course...

Sadly when you provide a personal service some people think you are a pushover.

This tells you everything about the culture of BLT - hoard an essential good which is in scarce supply and then sell it back to the people who need it for greater than they would have to pay if they owned it themselves, and pretend you're offering a service! Utter delusion and no doubt a self-defence mechanism... BTL is a debt-funded speculation on ever-increasing prices - simple. Nothing whatsoever to do with offering a service! AT least be honest with yourself about why you're participating in BTL...

interesting post until the last bit - a lot of btl is buy for cash to let, something like 50% of london property sales are for cash, not borrow to buy to let.

There are good lls and good tenants, bad lls and bad tenants.

So for a mortgage free ll the game changes somewhat - we just float with the market. The properties are marketed for what agents value them at, if they dont let the price drops. Empty property benefits no one.

afraid im out of this thread now, advice to op is stay till he has to move. He lives in a good road if it sells to an investor he can stay on under the same terms. Hopefully btl reforms will soften sales prices as im a buyer not a seller.

thanks to all the constructive posters

im afraid im out

AT least be honest with yourself about why you're participating in BTL...

This is rot, why does anybody "offer a service" its to make a living. Unless you are a volunteer of course.

Well, this deteriorated quickly.

FWIW, I actually thought poolman was very helpful, so it is a shame he feels he cannot respond further.

The landlady here (who I feel is a good LL) has actually just raised her rent by over 40% - but she had been holding it at well below market rate for some years as the previous family were at home here. The flat is now a little under the market value (probably £150-£200 a month extra is the top price for it). So not all rent increases are down to greedy LLs as it may seem on the face of it.

Nothing seems particularly clear in all this - we have a 3 year agreement, and I cannot find a break clause in it, and there are quite specific clauses in there explaining how we can be evicted. The Section 21 situation seems to go against most of those clauses, and if it is correct that it could be served 4 months into the tenancy then the only person benefiting from the agreement would be the LL.

Haven't managed to contact the Employee advisory outfit yet, but will be doing so tomorrow - they have been extremely helpful in the past, so I hope that one of their legal experts can help.

Simply moving out of London is not much of an option - my kids are both at school here, and are very happy, we both work fairly locally and also have lots of friends here - having spent my childhood moving from pillar to post I value an area where you feel comfortable and settled.

I'm hopeful that an investor will buy it and see the value in having settled tenants in it for 3 years paying rent from day 1. Fingers crossed.

We haven't raised the rent on the flat we own for 4 years. The rent is at the bottom of market value and just covers the mortgage and associated costs.
Spent nearly 5k on renovations whilst the current tenant was incumbent too, new kitchen etc... She's on a 12 month tenancy and I very much hope will stay there for longer.
Not all landlords are the same, but I guess that ruins poorly informed invective, doesn't it?

Scott - I am happy to help just email I can get my agent to advise on the contract. I just get offended when all lls get tarnished with the same brush by the odd disgruntled tenant. Funnily enough I used to work with a guy who lived ina maisonette on yr rd if its l.......l rd. I wd love to live in chelsea but cant afford it, however I dont slag off lls in chelsea for inflating house prices there. Happy to help im In kt2 from tomorrow but no wifi so will just pick up emails in sainsburys.

Sorry me again I just thought if an investor wants to buy your flat then if they want a mortgage then the lender usually wants vacant posession, which they wont get as u r midway through a 3 year ast with no break clause.So Its really down to any break clause in yr ast. deffo stay put you may get bought out, sadly doesnt provide a home but sweetens any move. Good luck

lender usually wants vacant posession,

The last 2 BTLS I bought wanted this, I can't remember the others as it was 20 years ago.