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Talk Talk.
Spirit of Eden.
I think maybe Brian Wilson was being polite there.
He wasn’t all there a lot of the time, and George Martin, along with The Beatles, developed a whole new range of studio techniques that The Beachboys and Brian Wilson were only to keen to try to copy and improve on. As shown on ‘God Only Knows’, possibly one of the finest pop songs ever recorded.
Production is part of the story, but so is mastering, especially with vinyl, and a really good mastering engineer can make a huge difference. Back when I was buying vinyl, I always bought Hi-Fi News & Record Reviews, because NME couldn’t give a shit about the quality of the music, only if it fitted the reviewers own political world-view. Apart from good album reviews, there was a bit at the back which always went deeper into production and the like, written by a bloke by the name of Ken Kestler, and I learned a lot from his articles.
One thing was to look at the run-out grooves and see if there was anything stamped there, and if so, did it match anything in the liner-notes on the sleeve, in particular the word Masterdisk. If the sleeve notes said the album was mastered by Bob Ludwig at Masterdisk, the quietly rejoice and enjoy the music, because he was about the best in the business, and the vinyl was pressed from first generation metal stampers.
If it said something different, like Stirling Sound, then one or both stampers had worn or been damaged, and new ones cut elsewhere from second-generation stereo tapes copied from the original studio stereo master, which meant there was already slight degradation in quality, along with the unknown quality of whoever mastered that cutting.
Two albums I have, original vinyl, are Dire Straits ‘Love Over Gold’, and Paul Simon’s ’Hearts and Bones’, both of which are Bob Ludwig masters, and both are outstanding quality.
I’ll go along with Steely Dan’s ‘Aja’, and Donald Fagan’s ‘Nightfly’, fabulous production, clear vocals, space around instruments, a nice wide soundstage, and not cluttered up.
I have a small collection of 12″ singles (including Frankie). Almost without exception the quality is amazing. I’ve no idea why, it just seems there is more “space” for the sound to inhabit. I’m assuming there is some proper technical thing going on.
Yeah, it’s only having one track on each side of a 12” disk, playing at 45rpm instead of 33rpm, giving lots of room between the grooves to allow plenty of bass without the stylus jumping into the next groove, or grooves actually crossing into the next groove.
This is why vinyl sounds ‘warmer’, the master stereo tape is EQ’d, the high and low frequencies are rolled off to avoid issues at the mastering stage - bass causing stylus jumping, high frequencies causing the mastering lathe cutting head to overheat and burn out. MP3’s may be compressed, but so is vinyl, it can’t work otherwise, at least not with 33rpm albums.
John Mayall with Clapton - Blues Breakers
Jack White - Lazaretto
The Beatles - Revolver
Kamasi Washington - Harmony of Difference
Michael Kiwanuka - Love and Hate
Led Zep - I, II, III & IV
I think this is a difficult question for me - because it’s so subjective.
I know albums that I love the production of and those I really dislike, but in reality that’s just my individual taste - apart from really awful production. There are a few howlers here.
- The Joshua Tree - Lanois/Eno/Lillywhite. Original release sounds awful in every format. Lumpen, sludgy, dull sound.
- Nevermind - Butch Vig. Sounded ok at the time - but now it sounds dreadful. Too bright, too FM radio-friendly sounding. Think of how good In Utero still sounds!
- All Change - Leckie. I don’t know what went wrong here, sound overly bright and harsh. Tiring to listen too.
I'm no expert, but I thought that part of the appeal of Eric B & Rakim's Paid In Full was that the production was a so rough, so raw, so unpolished and "genuine"?
For very high production values, PSB's Race for Space is recent standout for me. Going back a bit anything by Air, and back a bit further Portishead.
Portishead is a very good call.
Def Leppard – Hysteria
Mutt Langes finest hour
He has blood on his hands regarding crimes against music.
No feeling , no soul just making music as bland as possible to appeal to people to as many people as possible ,to make as much money as possible.
Most of Seal's albums are pretty good, especially Seal I and Seal II.
As previously mentioned by RichPenny Dr Dre always delivers great production, particularly 2001.
Justin Timberlake's Future Sex / Love Sounds.
And Timbaland's Shock Value.
I’m no expert, but I thought that part of the appeal of Eric B & Rakim’s Paid In Full was that the production was a so rough, so raw, so unpolished and “genuine”?
That’s why like anything - it’s just so subjective. It really depends on who is listening and what sounds great to them for that artist.
"Talk Talk.
Spirit of Eden."
Would respectfully disagree, production on that not as good as Laughing Stock. Much better album tho...
Stanley Road - Paul Weller & Brendan Lynch.
Purple Rain - Prince. I would Die 4 U sounds superb every time I hear it.
The Black album by Metallica is one that springs to mind, it’s so crisp and clean sounded especially compared to their previous album.
Wow! I was going to hold that up as an example of dreadful production. The hi hat on the vinyl copy I have is so distracting. Maybe it was a bad pressing or something 🤷♂️. Or sound is very subjective!
Anyway, my nomination is Album by Public Image Limited.
A producer will take the sound of each instrument on a song and mix all of these together.
He has tools available to him which help to enhance each of these strands.
He has other tools available to him which help him to blend together or separate these strands.If you go to a gig, and the lead guitarist has turned his amp up to 11, so you can’t hear the vocalist… It’s bloody annoying, and in a recording studio, that would be bad production.
In the example I gave, the Sigur Ros song is massively dynamic, there’s 2 drummers and one of them sounds like he’s literally beating his snare to death. When I’m listening to that, I can feel the power of it, but I can also hear the emotion in the singers voice and the soaring sound of a guitar being played with a bow. I can focus on and enjoy any of those elements separately, but also how they complement each other. For me, that’s a great recording.
You've kind of smushed two roles together.
Producer- artistic direction
Engineer- has a bunch of tools to help realise the artistic direction. He/she is the one who makes sure things are recorded correctly and sounds are "right".
A good engineer makes production easier. Listen to a motown drum track none of this mic'ing every drum stuff just getting it right from the start by mic placement.
Both vital roles sometimes performed by the same person.
Recording studios are great fun to play in.
On that note... i see album and raise you a whole record label... Motown
Anyone mentioned propeller heads: decksanddrumsandrockandroll
Got the vinal some where.
On a similar not been on a bit of a binge buying early/ mid 90s cds hoping for less noise
Surprised to see Fat Boy Slim referred to. When I bought my current hi-fi I had to stop playing it, it made the production sound staggeringly awful.
Kerbdog - On the Turn. Great sounding album produced by Garth "GGGarth" Richardson. It was recorded in Sound City Studios in LA which is part of the reason it sounds so good. Kerbdog should have been massive after that album but then Britpop happened. They spent a fortune recording it and had to have it mixed twice before being dropped by their label.
Biffy Clyro were massive fans of theirs and went on to use Richardson too based on the sound of that album.
David Bowie Let's Dance or even a few of his earlier maybe Hunky Dory then chuck in Peter Gabriel So
in fact, pretty much anything Rick Rubin’s done
Early rick rubin, excellent.
Later on rick rubin, massively overcompressed and painful to listen to, generally a masterclass in how to remove any dynamics from the music. Can't rate it low enough.
Wow! I was going to hold that up as an example of dreadful production.
Metallica Black Album is awful production. Cluttered, low quality sounds in many places, all dynamics removed. Shame really. Contrast the start of Enter Sandman with the start of Call of Ktulu for instance.
For electronic stuff (where often the artist and the producer are the same), for me the sign of quality was knowing within a bar or two who’d produced something. Daft Punk and Autechre are two examples that spring to mind.
Orbital are the benchmark of production quality for electronic, surprised no mention yet?
Also Terry Brown's production on Rush - 2112 / Farewell to Kings / Hemispheres is great.
Personal favourites in terms of production include Brastie Boys' Paul's Boutique and Burning Spear's Hail H.I.M.
totally subjective, but Time Will Die and Love Will Bury It by Rolo Tomassi is an outstanding record of the last few years for me, both content and production wise. Massive.
Agree with someone above on Random Access Memories and I’ll add Rage Against the Machine
On a slightly different tangent I’ve got my grandads old record collection and in it is a “direct to disc” pressing of Lincoln Mayorga and guests - The Missing Link. As I understand it, these records were recorded directly to master disc, bypassing multitrack tapes so very different to all the stuff above. The sound quality on this disk is simply breathtaking
/a>
Welcome to the Pleasure Dome, FGTH.
Chip in for The Blue Nile, A Walk Across the Rooftops - Linn records production IIRC.
Neurosis - "Stones From The Sky", last track on the "A Sun That Never Sets" album.
Engineered (not produced) by Steve Albini,
I love the sound of this album, and was genuinely staggered when I heard the last track for the first time. I thought there was something wrong with my copy, but no, EVERYTHING goes into the red at the end and gets completely F'd up.
Also most things Steve Albini does have a great and distinctive sound
Suede - Coming Up.
Dave Fridmann worked some magic on Sleater Kinney's The Woods. Made them sound like prime Led Zep.
Not sure how well regarded he is with the purists, as he's usually associated with a very loud, squashed sound. Just what the doctor ordered here, though - SK a great band but had a bit of a fey indie sound that was starting to get repetitive IMHO.
Sketches of Spain and Kinda Blue Miles Davis.
Pet Sounds.
Astral Weeks.
Darkside of the Moon.
Bridge Over Troubled Water and Graceland.
Trinity Revisited.
Four Seasons - Recomposed.
Victoria Requiem - Hyperion 1987 Westminster Cathedral
There are nearly as many interpretations of the phrase "production quality" as there are of "essential journey".
In my view it's what turns a simple tune into a brilliant one.
I have a sampler from Snape concert hall where you can hear the valves on the woodwind opening and closing in the quieter parts of Fauré's Pavane. The sound effects of the auditorium are there as another part of the performance.
Red Hot Chilli Peppers - Californication. It's certainly staggering.
4hero - Two Pages is a really good sounding album.
How do you actually judge production quality, or whether it's staggering. Most people seem to be listing albums they like and are 'classic'?
If you want staggering production, go and listen to the first Britney Spears album.
(You don't have to like the music to think the production is 'good')
Consistency of vision with the sound. How the sound is engineered, recorded, even the tuning of musicians kit. Use of spectral / physical space, effects, how the sounds interact (or don't). Bands turn up with a catchy song, producer has to make it sound brilliant, every producer's idea of what that band could sound like will be different.
about 9 minutes in Trevor starts breaking down a YES track, there's some good stuff about what the producer is doing to the sounds:
Brittney Spears album does not have 'quality' although I would say it does the job it is aimed at, which is to make a lowest common denominator simple pop tunes sound "better" on a crap car stereo with little clarity or definition to its audio capabilities; usually overcompressed with every sound distorted to fill the audio spectrum in order to patch up holes in the end user's stereo kit. Horribly fatiguing to listen to in the most part.
How do you actually judge production quality
Michael Jackson's albums produced by Quincy Jones vs those without?
As mentioned previously David Sylvian, most of Talk Talks
Add to that Depeche Mode
Always thought the Dandy Warhols - Thirteen tales from urban bohemia sounded pretty good on most systems, not sure if that means its a good production?
Dunno about "staggering", but I like the production on JJ Doom 'Key to the Kuffs', FKA Twigs' 1st, Atoms for Peace, Thom Yorke's Eraser and top of the pile, Clipping.'s first album. Can't say I've noticed it on many others, cos mostly I listen to stuff cos I like the music. I mean thinking an album's great when you don't like the artist is totally beyond me.
Its just appreciating a part of it, one of the many contributions to the overall thingummyjiggy.
Yeah, I understand what is being said, but its beyond me in the sense of something that I would ever bother doing.
@vdubbers67
Most people seem to be listing albums they like and are ‘classic’?
You make a good point, to some extent you can learn to like the production values of albums you love - and I agree, some people seem to have done that with some of their examples.
On the other hand there are albums by artists I don't like - U2, for example, or Phil Collins - where I can appreciate the clarity of the sounds they are making while still disliking the songs.
There are also albums I love but I consider to have awful production. The first Specials album is an example of this for me: I love the songs, but I think the sound is poor - muffled and muddled. The last Magazine album: Magic, Murder and the Weather is also terribly produced. I loved the first three albums, and I can see that the songs are of similar quality, but I find it almost unlistenable it's such a mess.
This takes some beating from Trevor Horn
I couldn’t agree more about Metallic’s black album horrible over compressed mastering and utterly horrible drum sound.
I’ll throw in almost anything Ethan Johns has had his hands on. The Staves Dead Born and Grown, Ray LaMontagne Till the sun turns black, Laura Marling Almost anything being great examples of classic miking techniques in superb spaces.
Anything produced by Matt Bayles, ISIS, Botch, Valerian Swing, Burnt by the Sun.
Terry Date productions including Deftones,Pantera, White Zombie.
totally subjective, but Time Will Die and Love Will Bury It by Rolo Tomassi is an outstanding record of the last few years for me, both content and production wise. Massive.
Killer record. So, so good.
On the subject of good vinyl pressings my cheapy rock and roll Beatles compilation made by music for pleasure still sounds so good even though my copy will be 40 year old and played often. Mfp were sold in the cheap end of the market but I'm sure owned by EMI
I couldn’t agree more about Metallic’s black album horrible over compressed mastering and utterly horrible drum sound.
Interesting, because that drum sound was actively gone after, they lined the studio with varnished plywood and used room mics to achieve it....so poor production or just not to taste?
I loved the raw sound of the Glasvegas first album, but a mate describes it as unlistenable because of the wall of sound production values.
I guess production quality is subjective - do we only consider pristine and polished, or those where the production is integral to the sound because it isn't pristine and polished?
Laura Marling Almost anything being great examples of classic miking techniques in superb spaces.
Have you heard her new album? Very simple recording, and very well produced. I’ve only got a download at the moment, 196Kb I think, she’s released that early, the CD and vinyl to follow, but judging by the download the full-fat recording should be superb.
I guess production quality is subjective – do we only consider pristine and polished, or those where the production is integral to the sound because it isn’t pristine and polished?
Good point, and I agree that sometimes the music overrides the production, by its sheer dynamic quality or urgency, but other times the production just dulls the impact, everything that’s vital just literally gets lost in the mix! Like Stipe’s vocals on early REM recordings, Murmur being a particular example, and perfectly named, although Stipe has always said he like to hear other people’s interpretations of what they think he’s singing.
Paul Simon stands out for me as he was so obsessed with capturing the essence of music that is best described as Non-UK, non-US, pop.
So Graceland and especially Rhythm Of The Saints (a magnificent follow up to one of the best LPs ever and criminally underrated) are well worth a listen.
For me, the Kings of Leon were brilliant before Sex on fire, however, the production before that massive hit was so poor you struggle to understand any vocals.
So Graceland and especially Rhythm Of The Saints (a magnificent follow up to one of the best LPs ever and criminally underrated) are well worth a listen.
Rhythm Of The Saints - Totally underrated! I could not agree more. On the other hand, the original CD master used for the first Graceland CD issues was dreadful. I preferred the sound of my original cassette!
Interesting, because that drum sound was actively gone after, they lined the studio with varnished plywood and used room mics to achieve it….so poor production or just not to taste?
Interesting indeed, but more fool them. I could listen to Ride the Lightning all day long but a few songs of Black makes me want to switch everything off, sit outdoors and listen to birds cheeping for a bit. Vocal recording was standout tosh on the whole thing, too. Compare to something like Brucey Bonus on Somewhere in Time. Black is over eq'd, Time is quite natural sounding, plus on Time the mix has space for detail on the bass, the drums don't squash the upper vocal range, I could go on (but wont!).
That said, taste is definitely a big factor in all this stuff, there's obviously the bit about capturing things as well as you can, maybe file under 'skilled engineering / technician', but then the mixdown work that goes on as well, adding a few fills, hits, effects and whatnot which all definitely comes under 'artistic direction' type area / taste.
Also I'd chuck Flood's efforts on Depeche Mode Violator in the list.
Still no mention of "Slave To The Rhythm"?- a real full-bodied experience. I see Rumours has had a mention - I'd second that : it's stunning on vinyl. Springsteen's Born To Run on an old half-speed mastered copy is pretty epic too. I think a possible favourite recording is an old Courtney Pine EP called "Traditions Beckoning" which employed something called "Ambisonic" recording. The sax solo on "Softly As In A Morning Sunrise" is like a brass volcano erupting in the room. I'd put a scratch in my old copy and managed to find a mint one on Ebay for about £5.....chuffed. Second only to Neil Young's Harvest. That sounds gorgeous. I believe the band were out in a barn while the desk was hooked up in a completely seperate building.
It’s worth checking out Daniel Lanois, not only a great musician in his own right, but a great producer as well, done some superb work with Brian Eno, U2, Emmylou Harris, among others. Seen him live solo, and as part of Emmylou’s band on her Wrecking Ball tour, the album he produced.
Portishead have always had great production on their albums as well.
Daniel Lanois
Definitely - he’s even done an album with drill n bass merchant Venetian Snares... now that’s some versatility!
He also produced Dylan’s Oh Mercy which is a marvellous album.
Trevor Horn and Depeche Mode Violator are very good posts.
Great call on Daniel Labour, @CountZero.
I thought his work with Eno on U2’s Unforgettable Fire was amazing (whether one likes U2 or not), and almost everything he has done since has been equally good.
O god , so many to choose from.
Gerry Rafferty City to City
Hows that for a start?.
For me, the Kings of Leon were brilliant before Sex on fire, however, the production before that massive hit was so poor you struggle to understand any vocals.
I always thought that was intentional especially so on Youth and Young Manhood. A different thread, but they are number one on my list of bands that turned to shit very quickly. Their first album and EP were like a snot nosed CCR fronted by Eric Cartman and it was great. They then became Coldplay or The Killers or something.
Ian Dury & the Blockheads
New boots and panties
I’ve won 😊
I think Metallica's production is often hampered by Lars' idea of what a good drum sound is. The snare on And Justice For All is shockingly bad and makes a fair bit of it unlistenable. Like a cap gun being fired by a metronome.
New boots and panties just a great album and bass
Oh - I've got a good one. Nothing Like the Sun by Sting.
That is very finely produced and engineered album.
Had the magic of Hugh Padgham and others.
@SaxonRider - yeah, I think he’s often overlooked as an artist in his own right, his albums always seem to have a sort of ‘shimmering’ quality, I can’t describe it any other way, he does use an Omnichord quite a lot, which does have that sort of sound.
The The - Soul Mining and Infected are both very well produced, they sound incredible on headphones.
I honestly can't believe no one has mentioned The Cocteau Twins - Heaven or Las Vegas (or any of their albums really).
Should have thought of this earlier, well, I did, earlier today, but couldn’t remember the title and couldn’t remember where my copy is, but this book should be essential reading for everyone here who’s interested in music and the recording process:
https://www.amazon.com/Perfecting-Sound-Forever-History-Recorded/dp/0865479380
It’s a fascinating in-depth look at the history of the recording process, including the infamous ’Loudness Wars’.
I must dig my copy out and re-read it again.
Weird one
....and the Circus Leaves Town by Kyuss.
First time you hear it, it sounds like unlistenable mud. Turgid garbage.
Then you hear it in the background a party and it catches your ear. The songs are god, if you could just hear them through the awful production.
Then you meet a young lass who deals exctasy out of her thigh highs and you smoke a couple of Js in your mate's room with this album on and something in your brain just *clicks" and suddenly all stoner rock makes sense and it is an incredibly moving experience - a paradigm shift in your perceptions and you become a new being.
Then you hear it in the background a party and it catches your ear. The songs are god, if you could just hear them through the awful production.
I choose to believe this was not a typo, and I concur 👍
Colour by the Christians ,Laurie Latham
This might be a bit abstract, but Zaireeka by the Flaming Lips- produced so you can reproduce it yourself!
Also, and especially, The Soft Bulletin by The Flaming Lips
Both work of Dave Fridmann and very distinct. The production of the latter is superb. So many different layers of sound, and with the particular complication of very lo-fi live drums, yet tight and distinct instrumentation.
I'd also champion the work of Nigel Godrich, producer of much of Radiohead's output, and a surprising amount of work from that era, but I find these albums particularly good in production terms:
Kid A
Amnesiac
Hail to the Thief- Radiohead
Terror Twilight- Pavement
The Eraser
Anima-Thom Yorke
Sea Change-Beck (such an brilliant redirection of Beck's sound in this album)
50 pounds of bone by Robert lukas, completley blue on audioquest records,
Almost falling into pick your favourite tracks mode here but this was recorded in one take by Steve Albini, keeps it pretty raw but gets it bang on for me, the outros perfect
Anyone recommened Tool yet? Fear Inolculum is great
Apologies if it's been said before but credit for the sound quality should go to the engineer not necessarily the producer. Although they're often the same person or a close knit team.
Secondly I often like albums that sound pretty raw or even rough. Two examples The Waterboys Fisherman's Blues and SLF Inflammable Material both of which would not have benefitted from an over polished "perfect" sound.
Someone mentioned Californication earlier, which if memory serves was held up as an example of an album that had all the life squeezed out of it by compression when I studied this kind of thing at uni (far too many) years ago.
These suggestions are a little different from some of the stuff that’s come before, but:
Ulrich Schnauss - A Strangely Isolated Place
Amon Tobin - Chaos Theory
BT - This Binary Universe
All electronic albums of one type or another, and they all sound amazing in different ways.
@soundninjauk - yeah, the book I linked to above ^^ goes into some detail about that and other albums produced in recent years that have suffered from the obsession with ‘loudness’, compressing the dynamic range to make music sound louder when played through the shitty little speakers on mobile phones.
That’s why I posted the link, that book goes into so much background to the development of recorded music since the turn of last century. I remembered I’d also bought an ebook of it as well, and I started reading it again last night, just after that post.
Fascinating stuff.