[Closed] Teachers striking again!!!!!

Zulu - like the tories spending it all on benefits keeping a large proportion of the population out of work and doing nothing useful?

.couldn't you find one which backs up Farmer_John claim that we went into the recession carrying the largest deficit of any country as a proportion of GDP then ?

FFS the wink meant it was a light hearted comment

(if you started with reserves rather than debt)

ernie - congratulations on posting a graph which disproves both of your points

aracer - usa? Japan?

aracer - usa? Japan?

Japan however has huge debt.

Japan however has huge debt.

Were we? I thought you were making stuff up on ideological grounds.

The debt and the deficit the UK has is not unsustainable contrary to the tory propaganda. It is not good - but growth would reduce it where as austerity measures that they have taken will and are increasing it.

Still - they have always been economic illiterates the tories with their low growth, high inflation, high unemployment and high debt and deficit.

I thought you were making stuff up on ideological grounds

It is not good

Maybe - but we were discussing the economic measure the UK [b]is outside the safe bounds of. [/b]

See the words at the top of that graph up there, TJ - you're seriuously suggesting that we can maintain a 12%+ deficit without any problems?

completely arbitrary limit. Nothing to do with safety. I doubt anything will explode and at other points in the cycle other countries have been well over the 3 % limit

makes you wonder what the norweigens are pissing about at doesnt it.

and I still dont get why the short term problem needs this long term solution.

aracer - Member

See the words at the top of that graph up there, TJ - you're seriuously suggesting that we can maintain a 12%+ deficit without any problems?

12%? 6% according to your graph you posted.

And yes - we can run a a large deficit for a short time so long as the money is being used usefully - as it was up until the Tories started cutting. Its only a short term thing until growth picked up or it would have been without the disastrous economically illiterate tories in charge

Norway? using he oil money wisely

aracer - Member

ernie - congratulations on posting a graph which disproves both of your points

So now you're claiming I can't count beyond 4 ! 😀

.......well I knew I was rubbish at arithmetic but I'm fairly sure I that this graph only shows 4 periods since WW2 when the UK hasn't had a deficit, and not 5 as you claim.

[img] [/img]

And I think you'll find that only in the one period of the late 80s were the Tories in power, in the other three periods Labour were in government.

So where's the bit in the graph which disproves both of my points ?

Perhaps you could also explain to me why there has almost always been a deficit under Tory governments, especially as the Tories have been power most of the time and deficits are such extraordinarily bad things ❓

so it was actually Labour's taxation policy causing the problem?

Labour's taxation policies undoubtedly contributed to the deficit. Who doubts that the temporary cut in VAT didn't contribute to the deficit ? Who doubts that cutting income tax in the "boom" years and then not raising it in the "bust" years, didn't contribute to the deficit ?

ooops upsidey downy!!

Junkyard, far from failing "to post up any evidence again to show that it was not the bankers wot done it", the graph shows that our economy started to go into deficit in 2002 and didn't get any better from that point onwards - despite one of the longest period of economic growth since WW2.

Unless you're seriously claiming that it was the bankers messing things up between 2002 and 2007 (and miraculously, the global banking sector only messed up the uk economy and didn't touch any others), it does rather point to an underlying issue that was exacerbated by the banking crisis.

Me!!! I got it!!! fifeunned.

Wooooooo Hooooo!!!

the graph shows that our economy started to go into deficit in 2002 and didn't get any better from that point onwards

Can't you see the bit where it started to get better then ?

It all went tits up thanks to the credit crunch caused by the banks/bankers.......despite your attempts to rewrite history.

It all went tits up thanks to the credit crunch caused by the banks/bankers

[i]I borrowed more than I could afford to fund a mortgage and buy a new car, now house prices have fallen and I'm stuck in negative equity, this wasn't supposed to happen - its all the b*stard bankers fault![/i]

It all went tits up thanks to the credit crunch caused by the banks/bankers

[i]I maxed out the credit cards on holidays in the seychelles, expensive bike components and a LCD TV - now I've lost my job and can't pay it back, and its all the b*stard bankers fault![/i]

It all went tits up thanks to the credit crunch caused by the banks/bankers

[i]I Took my mothers inheritance, and put it in an offshore bank paying twice the interest I could get on the high street - it was an offer that was too good to be true said my IFA, but I showed him he was wrong, the foreign bank went bust, but luckily the government bailed me out and gave me all my money back - but it was still all the b*stard bankers fault!
[/i]

[b]Personal Responsibility[/b] - just one of the many things the Labour party took away from us!

Teachers still work on school holidays.

Teachers still work on school holidays.

Ideal time for them to go on strike then, holidays and teacher training days 😀

Zulu-Eleven you haven't been following this thread. So just for you, let me repeat the link which clearly shows how your party leader David Cameron, placed the blame for the financial crises firmly on the banks and bankers.

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/4348801/David-Cameron-calls-for-criminal-actions-against-bankers.html ]David Cameron calls for criminal actions against bankers[/url]

Quote :

[i]"David Cameron last night expressed disbelief that financial watchdogs were not pursuing criminal investigations against [u][b]banks and bankers who have caused the financial crisis[/b][/u]."[/i]

You need to fall more into line with your party leader mate 💡

btw, I take it you don't doubt the accuracy of a Daily Telegraph article Zulu-Eleven ? ..... after all, your great guru Daniel Hannan is a leader writer for the Telegraph 😀

ernie_lynch - Member

Zulu-Eleven you haven't been following this thread. So just for you, let me repeat the link which clearly shows how your party leader David Cameron, placed the blame for the financial crises firmly on the banks and bankers.

Objection- David Cameron [i]says[/i] this, it doesn't mean he [i]thinks[/i] this. being a politician, the 2 are not connected.

the graph shows that our economy started to go into deficit in 2002 and didn't get any better from that point onwards - despite one of the longest period of economic growth since WW2.

Unless you're seriously claiming that it was the bankers messing things up between 2002 and 2007 (and miraculously, the global banking sector only messed up the uk economy and didn't touch any others), it does rather point to an underlying issue that was exacerbated by the banking crisis

The billions spent bailing out the banks and the need for public spending cuts were the fault of the finacial services sector

The price of this financial crisis is being borne by people who absolutely did not cause it," he said. "Now is the period when the cost is being paid, I'm surprised that the degree of public anger has not been greater than it has.

Northwind are you suggesting that David Cameron is not only a liar, but that he lies about things as important as who's responsible for the financial crises ? 😯

I'm outraged that you should even suggest such a thing about our Prime Minister 😐

ernie_lynch - Member

Northwind are suggesting that David Cameron is not only a liar, but that he lies about things as important as who's responsible for the financial crises ?

I think if he weren't, he'd be unelectable.

David Cameron is making a nice political song and dance, but he's doing it safe in the knowledge that no one will actually be charged with anything. Mainly as while some of the people here might wish that some banking activities were illegal, these happen to have been and remain perfectly legitimate.

There's a nice section of the fsa website showing people who have been prosecuted and what for. There's plenty of mortgage fraud, but nothing on selling mortgages, or credit derivatives.

Oil is not the only factor in Norways apparent good figures - although most of these 'facts' can be manipulated to show whatever necessary to prove an argument.

How would the figures look if it wasn't for [url= https://oxfordprospect.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/uk-contributions-to-the-eu-budget/ ]EU membership[/url]

I think if he weren't, he'd be unelectable.

Well he failed to win the election.

So I guess it's because he wasn't lying when he claimed that it was [i]"banks and bankers who have caused the financial crisis"[/i] ?

The guy needs to stop telling the truth 💡

That's because selling mortgage pools and securitising them through cayman island spvs (force example) isn't illegal. If there is s cash fliw abd receivable you can securitise it! Dont forget that for every deal where bankers get paid lots there are teams if lawyers where the partners are billing enormous amounts if money not ti nention the auditors and all the other fiduciaries such as ratings agencies, trustees, agents all making sure the deal works and is above board.

Sort of like a school, where there are teachers, and TAs, secretaries, treasurers, governors, inspectors, health and safety people. There is some management and administration leeching money in every profession!

Wait a minute Ernie - thats not a quote from Cameron! its an editorial sub headline.

You're either unable to read or deliberately being obtuse!

Can you give me an [b]actual[/b] quote from Cameron saying that?

bangaio I'm sure that despite David Cameron's assertions to suggest otherwise, the banks and bankers acted within the law.......that indeed is the tragic consequence of crap laws and deregulation.

David Cameron would of course all like us to believe that it was just a few naughty individuals who were at fault, and not the deregulated free-market neo-liberal dream.

What isn't in doubt however, is that 18 months ago David Cameron placed the blame for the financial crises firmly on the banks and bankers.

What isn't in doubt however, is that 18 months ago David Cameron placed the blame for the financial crises firmly on the banks and bankers.

Ernie - actual [u]quote[/u] or it didn't happen!

Wait a minute Ernie - thats not a quote from Cameron!

Who said it was a quote from David Cameron ? I certainly didn't !

I said it was a quote from the Daily Telegraph concerning what Cameron had said about placing the blame for the financial crises firmly on the banks and bankers.

What's the matter mate...........don't you believe your Tory Daily Telegraph - even though your great guru Daniel Hannan is a leader writer on the paper ?

Sort of like a school, where there are teachers, and TAs, secretaries, treasurers, governors, inspectors, health and safety people. There is some management and administration leeching money in every profession!

Hang on - are we comparing teachers nicking whiteboard markers to city execs siphoning off millions to offshore accounts?

😕

There's a nice section of the fsa website showing people who have been prosecuted and what for. There's plenty of mortgage fraud, but nothing on selling mortgages, or credit derivatives.

Ernie - Monbiot writes for the Guardian on Climate change - doesn't mean The paper's telling the truth though, does it 😉

Now, since you've conceded that Cameron himself has not made that claim - I'll offer you an actual quote!

"The whole country suffered from irresponsible lending practices, from irresponsible behaviour. But we need to recognise that there were a lot of people to blame for the mess we are in and that we shouldn't just think it's an easy scapegoat to pick one in view...

...Governments made mistakes, regulators made mistakes, politicians made mistakes; everyone was involved."

Now, does that actual quote support your allegation that Cameron put the blame on the bankers?

Now, since you've conceded that Cameron himself has not made that claim

Of course Cameron made the claim that the banks and bankers were responsible for the financial crises ! ......do you think the Daily Telegraph was lying ! 😀

And why the **** wouldn't he place the blame for the financial crises on the banks and bankers ? ...... they were responsible - the whole ****ing world knows that !

Here you are mate, if you want some direct quotes from the man himself :

[i]"I said then that there should be a day of reckoning for those whose behaviour helped to bring about [u]the financial crisis[/u]. A day when we would not flinch from spelling out the rightful consequences of irresponsible behaviour.

Doctors who behave irresponsibly get struck off. [u]Bankers[/u] who behave irresponsibly should face professional consequences.

Are the Government seriously saying that nothing untoward could have happened over here? How can anyone believe that in [u]the worst financial crisis of our lifetime[/u] no proper and thorough investigation needs to happen?" [/i]

Those quotes btw come directly from the Conservative Party main website.......I look forward to you telling me that like the Tory Daily Telegraph, the Conservative Party can't be trusted to tell the truth concerning what its leader has said ! 😀

Like it or not Zulu-Eleven, and you obviously don't, Cameron blamed the banks and bankers for the financial crises.

Here you are Zulu-Eleven I got more for you.....this time from the Daily Mail ! 😀

[url= http://www.****/news/article-1128382/Reckless-bankers-caused-credit-crunch-prosecuted-says-Tory-leader.html ]Reckless bankers who caused credit crunch should be prosecuted, says Tory leader[/url]

Quote :

[i]"Reckless bankers who helped bring the British economy to its knees should face investigation and criminal prosecution, David Cameron said last night."[/i]

Reckless bankers who caused the credit crunch says the Daily Mail......are they lying too ? !

So, where does he actually say it Ernie - not what was insinuated, not what newspaper editorials said... Like I said before, actual quotes.

The Daily Mail article doesn't not have a quote from Cameron "blaming bankers" - in fact the claims are [b]very[/b] specifically qualified with the word "if"

'I also think we need to look at the behaviour of banks and bankers and [u]where[/u] people have behaved inappropriately, that needs to be identified, and [u]if[/u] anybody has behaved criminally, in my view, there is a role for the criminal law,' Mr Cameron told Sky News.
'I don't understand why in this country the regulatory authorities seem to be doing so little to investigate it whereas in America they are doing quite a lot.
'[u]If[/u] people have broken the law, [u]if[/u] there has been insider dealing, [u]if[/u] there has been mis-selling, [u]if[/u] there have been any number of criminal activities, there is a role for the Serious Fraud Office and the authorities to investigate and prosecute.

Thats not a general statement that, as you claim it is, that "bankers are to blame"

Quotes of [u]something actually said by Cameron[/u] (not just of newspaper editorial) or it didn't happen!

Quotes of something actually said by Cameron (not just of newspaper editorial) or it didn't happen!

I did - I quoted directly from David Cameron - according to the Conservative Party website.

And what's this "newspaper editorial" nonsense ? .....those links aren't to newspaper editorials, they are direct links to articles in both the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail, some of which refers to a Cameron interview on Rupert Murdoch's Sky News.

Do you have any idea how absurd and ridiculous your claims that both the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail have falsely represented what the leader of the Tory Party has said, sounds ?

You're not accusing the Morning Star of misrepresenting David Cameron, you're accusing the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail of doing so ! 😀

.

Serious question Zulu-Eleven - what is it like to be [i]always[/i] wrong ?

Seriously mate, it can't be much fun for you. Occasionally I'm wrong and it really doesn't bother me, but it must be horrendous for you to be wrong [i]all[/i] the time.

Have you thought of changing your politics so that you're not [i]always[/i] wrong.......I know I would.

Ernie - you specifically claimed that Cameron blamed the bankers.

You have not demonstrated this, all you've demonstrated is that Newspapers blamed the bankers, you've been singularly unable to put forward a quote from Cameron directly attributing the blame to bankers.

[b]Bullshit and spin, As a Labourite, we shouldn't really expect anything else from you! [/b]

As for your other points - I'll refer you to an example closer to your own heart - Did Harold Macmillan ever actually say "you've never had it so good"? - Despite the fact that he's reported in every newspaper, and remembered by all for having said it, it does not make it true, he never did say it - and anyone with a decent understanding of politics understands this.

Good grief, are you sad sacks still spouting off over this?

Might I suggest a nice meal and a few drinks? Perhaps on the beach? Would certainly make you all CHILL THE F*** OUT a little, I feel.

Worked for me.

As a Labourite

And yet anyone who knows me or reads my posts will know that I do not support the Labour party, nor did I support the last Labour government.

You just can't help yourself can you mate ? ........the truth is as elusive to you as it was to Tony Blair.

Or your guru Dan Hannan for that matter.

And be quiet Flashheart.......I'm enjoying this 8)

Ernie - Clever attempt at weasel words stating you did not support [u]the last[/u] Labour Government...

Have you ever voted for a Labour party candidate in an election? Yes or no.

Have you ever voted for a Labour party candidate in an election? Yes or no.

I did more than vote Labour, I worked tirelessly for the election of a Labour government. All that ceased in 1995 when it became clear that the Labour Party had been hijacked by right-wing extremists who were hell-bent on transforming the party into a neo-liberal Thatcherite party.

In the 1997 general election I canvassed for the LibDems which I continued to support until Nick Clegg became leader. Last election I voted for the Green Party.

The only exception during that time has been my support on two occasions for Ken Livingstone in the London mayoral elections, and on one of those occasions he stood as an independent against the official Labour candidate. On the second occasion I personally told him that I wouldn't be voting for him as he was standing as the Labour candidate, despite that, I did actually vote for him. I will vote for again if he stands next election.

I have consistently attacked and criticised the Labour Party and Labour governments on here, and as someone who reads my posts you are fully aware of that Zulu-Eleven, as I am similarly of your politics. That didn't stop you however from feigning ignorance and labelling me a "Labourite".

As I said, you just can't help yourself ..... the "truth" is an inconvenient irritant which you feel is best ignored.

A simple yes would have sufficed Ernie, however clearly you've got some issues to work out with the fact that you feel your party betrayed you, so go on, let them out, its good for you - maybe some counselling might help?

So, on the basis of what you've clearly felt you needed to tell us there Ernie, Your earlier claim to not be a Labourite pretty much falls flat doesn't it, although clearly that would have worked better for you in trying to shake off the epithet of being a spin obsessed bullshitter, and in trying to present a version of the truth that doesn't actually match that well with the reality of your personal political history (yet apparently its me who has issues with the truth!)

Great innit - you try to deny being a spin obsessed Labourite, by spinning the truth of your long lasting involvement with the Labour party, and your record of voting for them, to deny it. Thanks for proving my point so succinctly...

Now, you can choose to present a spinned version of the truth that you're no longer a Labourite, but its sort of like like saying that leaving the BNP and joining the EDL mean's you're no longer a Nazi 😉

spinned???

This might actually prove to be the thread that causes Al Gore to switch the internet off.

....the fact that you feel your party betrayed you

Oh bless you Zulu-Eleven ........you do make me chuckle 😀

I have never held individual membership of the Labour party. The most I have ever had is affiliated membership through my trade union. My 'divorce' from the Labour Party was quite painless, I can assure you.

Yes I have worked tirelessly for the Labour Party in past elections, but that's down to me not being an armchair activist and actually putting my money where my mouth is. Similarly I have canvassed for the LibDems despite never having been a member.

I do not have to be a supporter of a political party to want them to win an election - I simply work on the basis of what serves the best interests of ordinary working people, and act accordingly. For example, in a totally hypothetical situation where a One Nation Tory was standing against a rabid New Labour Blairite, I might well back the Tory, if it was a choice of a Tory social-democrat over a New Labour neo-liberal. I would certainly vote Tory to defeat the BNP. My allegiance is always, before all else, to my class, not to a political party.

In the case of the Labour Party I have only ever supported it whilst holding my nose, on the basis that a Labour victory was beneficial to the ordinary man and woman. In fact as Lenin suggested I supported the Labour Party like a rope supports a hanged man. However with New Labour it became clear that the hanged man was very truly dead and the stench from the corpse was no longer tolerable. Lenin always predicted that given enough rope, in other words political power, Labour would hang itself, ie they would fail to deliver and would fail the aspirations of their supporters. So Labour's failures have never been anything other than expected for me. Thanks for your suggestion of "counselling" though.........it was very kind of you 😀

people using "spinned version of the truth" people that say that are liars.

Z11,as you well aware, call-me-Dave laid the blame at the feet of the banks,however sod your seeming inability to accept that it was the lead story in the national press; I like the irony of Ernie trawling the right-wing press to back up a point he made in support of the Tory party, only on STW!